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hist_text-digest      Thursday, September 2 1999      Volume 01 : Number 362



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Low Shooter [off topic]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Low Shooter
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Low Shooter [off topic]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.
-áááááá MtMan-List: Rendezvous Games
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Low Shooter [off topic]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
-áááááá MtMan-List: OFF TOPIC----Help
-áááááá MtMan-List: Games At Rendezvous
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.
-áááááá MtMan-List: Spurs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.
-áááááá MtMan-List: Mr. James Bridger

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:25:13 +0000
From: R Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling

Angela Gottfred wrote:
>
> Capt. Lahti' <[e-mail]> wrote:

> >This does smack of white man inventiveness doesn't it?
>
> Oh, I don't think so. Who invented the tipi in the first place? Not to
> mention snowshoes, birchbark canoes, pemmican, dogsleds, travois,
> cradleboards, igloos, buffalo pounds...

Angela,

I can see how you might have thought I was disparaging the inventiveness
or innovations of the American Indian or even any "primitive" culture
but I assure you that is not the case. I admire what these early people
did with their environment and resource's very much. But let us keep in
mind that regardless of which aboriginal peoples we speak of, it is not
safe to assume that what we can think up in the way of innovations is
what they would or did think of in their time. We are not islands unto
ourselves and we all in our time are influenced by the current state of
knowledge and all that has gone before. Without the need for such an
item, many modern peoples would not come up with a fraction of the items
in your list above. With such a need, a people will come up with a
satisfactory solution, be it the conical lodge or a way to preserve
food. But all will be tempered by the foreknowledge they posses and the
resources they have at their disposal. Big tipi's are easier to build
out of Bison hides that reindeer hides. Reindeer are easier to
domesticate than Bison. Both can be used to make conical lodges.

> > Perhaps liners aren't all that authentic!
> Well, I wouldn't dare tell folks not to use tipi liners because they might
> not be authentic. On the other hand, I don't think it wise to criticize
> tipis without liners-- at least, not on historic grounds!

I surely would not criticize anyone for using a liner and or ozan nor
would I criticize someone for not doing so. At this point it is very
much a matter of personal choice. As to whether one way or the other is
actually authentic, there seems to be room for friendly research and
debate.

My premise is simply that it is dangerous to ascribe a skill or action
or item to an earlier age simply because we do it or have it today. This
is the place to ask for proof. I don't want someone coming up to me at
camp telling me I am doing something so wrong I feel like leaving or am
expected to. I would not do that to someone else. But here we can talk
to share and listen to learn. I remain.......

YMOS
Capt./ Lahti'

>
> Linda Holley <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> >Stakes are much easier to carry and not all area have rocks.  Are main camping
> >area for tipis is out on the Plains.  Lots of grass but not a lot of rocks.
> I've seen tipi rings in areas that are _very_ exposed.  Like on the top of
> Nose Hill on the north end of Calgary, which is exposed to the strong
> westerlies we get from the Rockies. The area of SE Alberta where Fidler
> wrote about seeing tipi rings in 1792 (IIRC) is also notorious for strong
> winds. Our portion of the Northern Plains doesn't lack for rocks-- the whole
> area is covered by glacial rocks & gravel. In fact, the world's largest
> glacial erratic, the Okotoks Big Rock, is just 50 km or so south of here.
> It's two large rocks, each larger than a  3-storey apartment building.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:30:30 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Low Shooter [off topic]

On 31 Aug 1999 08:17:39 -0700 "Buck" <[e-mail]> writes:

>OFF TOPIC
>some barrels shot and some are Like pouring the ball down a rain spout.

Buck have fought this problem several times and usually find that the
problem is in the last 2 to 4 inches of the barrel---cut out of square
out of round---flared---bad crown or ding in the last 2 to 4
inches---sometimes a ding on the outside that was recieved prior to being
cut octigon or round  or hexicon is on the inside of the barrel anf
doesnt show up on the outside or to the eye---bill large and I had a
discussion at friendship one year and he felt that the handeling of the
barrel prior to milling was critical---also the direction or end of the
barrel that was breached made a difference---if you start pulling the
rifleing at one end then that should be your breach end and not your
muzzel end---difference in size of a few ten-thousands---also in the
drilling of the barrel ---it should be started at the same end that you
will start the rifleing in---bill also always thought that the bottoms of
the rifleing should have some minor tool marks this helped to cause
friction on the patch and allow the bullet to expand as it is moving down
the barrel-his lands were always highly polishes and smooth--some of the
guys dont believe that a bullet or ball expands into the rifleing (lets
not get that didcusson started---been there--- done that and have several
tee shirts that say so--)

also the reason for the hexigon or octigon barrels is to change the
harmonics of the barrel sometimes if you have one of those guns that you
cant seem to get to shoot you can change the harmonics by applying a
piece of cloth under the barrel in the barrel channel
to tighten up the play---sometimes you need a couple or three layers to
get the harmonics to change---had a TC that a guy brought me would not
shoot consistant--I changed rear sight---lapped bore---recut
crown---recut muzzel to be square with the outside of the barrel and
after each change took it and shot it---called bill and was going to
order a new barrel for it he told me about the poor mans bedding to
change the harmonics of the barrel---did it and the gun setteled in and
was a hell of a shooter---just that little thing made a hell of a
difference but you have to realize i did all the other things before i
got to that point---THE MORAL OF THE STORY---it got me to rethink the way
I install the under lugs and pins into a barrel---more important that i
ever thought----

whip on a high power makes a difference but the harmonics is what makes a
difference in a muzzle loader---(Going to get some flack on that
statement i'm sure) (GBG)

shoot sharp and put them all in the x ring---
>
>Another things of interest is the hexagon and octagon barrels are
>showing up the round barrels (the ones the perform) in cooling down
>faster and having less barrel whip.
>I guess our forefather had a good idea on what to build !!
Buck Conner

buck totally concure with your above statement---

best to you
YMHOSANT

        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:52:34 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Low Shooter

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:39:04 -0400 Tom Roberts <[e-mail]> writes:
>Sorry, I didn't explain the first time that this error is at only 25
>yards,
>thus, the large sight change dimension.
>
Tom
now it doesnt sound like a sight problem more of a head placement or a
method of obtaining your reference to the front sight ---go back the the
posting of sighting and head placement same as cpt lathi agreed on---

YMHOSANT
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]\

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:41:10 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling

Rick Williams <[e-mail]> wrote:
>...canvas allowed for larger tipis.  Perhaps the larger the
>tipi the greater the need for chimney drafting.

This is a very interesting idea. Has anyone with a small tipi tried it
without a liner? Anyone want to try?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:06:13 -0600
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling

Angela,  I have a small tipi (14') and it does work without the liner. I
seem to get enough drafts around the bottom and under the door that smoke
will clear the top. But not as nice as a well functioning one with the
liner installed properly. Positioning of the flaps are more critical and
more light is let in. But at night, this can be a problem, as people can
see in better too.

Angela Gottfred wrote:

> Rick Williams <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >...canvas allowed for larger tipis.  Perhaps the larger the
> >tipi the greater the need for chimney drafting.
>
> This is a very interesting idea. Has anyone with a small tipi tried it
> without a liner? Anyone want to try?
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:55:43 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Low Shooter [off topic]

To Hawk and all the others,
  This has been great info on shooting a smoothbore !  All you guys who are
newbies, straighten up and pay attention cause these guys really know their
stuff.
  Hawk, there is a greybearded old feller over hear in Texas that you need
to meet.  Get you two together and it would be worth the price of admission
just to sit and listen.
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Low Shooter [off topic]


>
>On 31 Aug 1999 08:17:39 -0700 "Buck" <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>>OFF TOPIC
>>some barrels shot and some are Like pouring the ball down a rain spout.
>
>Buck have fought this problem several times and usually find that the
>problem is in the last 2 to 4 inches of the barrel---cut out of square
>out of round---flared---bad crown or ding in the last 2 to 4
>inches---sometimes a ding on the outside that was recieved prior to being
>cut octigon or round  or hexicon is on the inside of the barrel anf
>doesnt show up on the outside or to the eye---bill large and I had a
>discussion at friendship one year and he felt that the handeling of the
>barrel prior to milling was critical---also the direction or end of the
>barrel that was breached made a difference---if you start pulling the
>rifleing at one end then that should be your breach end and not your
>muzzel end---difference in size of a few ten-thousands---also in the
>drilling of the barrel ---it should be started at the same end that you
>will start the rifleing in---bill also always thought that the bottoms of
>the rifleing should have some minor tool marks this helped to cause
>friction on the patch and allow the bullet to expand as it is moving down
>the barrel-his lands were always highly polishes and smooth--some of the
>guys dont believe that a bullet or ball expands into the rifleing (lets
>not get that didcusson started---been there--- done that and have several
>tee shirts that say so--)
>
>also the reason for the hexigon or octigon barrels is to change the
>harmonics of the barrel sometimes if you have one of those guns that you
>cant seem to get to shoot you can change the harmonics by applying a
>piece of cloth under the barrel in the barrel channel
>to tighten up the play---sometimes you need a couple or three layers to
>get the harmonics to change---had a TC that a guy brought me would not
>shoot consistant--I changed rear sight---lapped bore---recut
>crown---recut muzzel to be square with the outside of the barrel and
>after each change took it and shot it---called bill and was going to
>order a new barrel for it he told me about the poor mans bedding to
>change the harmonics of the barrel---did it and the gun setteled in and
>was a hell of a shooter---just that little thing made a hell of a
>difference but you have to realize i did all the other things before i
>got to that point---THE MORAL OF THE STORY---it got me to rethink the way
>I install the under lugs and pins into a barrel---more important that i
>ever thought----
>
>whip on a high power makes a difference but the harmonics is what makes a
>difference in a muzzle loader---(Going to get some flack on that
>statement i'm sure) (GBG)
>
>shoot sharp and put them all in the x ring---
>>
>>Another things of interest is the hexagon and octagon barrels are
>>showing up the round barrels (the ones the perform) in cooling down
>>faster and having less barrel whip.
>>I guess our forefather had a good idea on what to build !!
>Buck Conner
>
>buck totally concure with your above statement---
>
>best to you
>YMHOSANT
>
>        =+=
>      "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>Get the Internet just the way you want it.
>Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
>Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 99 18:07:59 -0600
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling

         Reply to:   Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
Food for thought:  The first TP's sere made of skins which would keep the =
wind out better and be warmer than canvas.  Would the first ones not need =
a liner until made from canvas would require one?

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

R Lahti wrote:
>Angela Gottfred wrote:
> =
>> These 'tipi rings' are common here in Alberta; Peter Fidler mentions =
them in
>> one of his journals, and says that they were used when there were no =
stakes,
>> or wood to make stakes.
>
>Angela,
>
>Great additional info (as usual! <G>). I'm only guessing but I would
>think that they were also used when the ground was too hard to drive
>stakes. But they may have been a more common way of doing it simply
>because of the logistics of either carrying or making stakes. Rocks are
>a lot easier to come by. But we have to be careful with our speculations
>and that may be where the liners came from. I also consider Alberta as
>being out west <G>. The plains indian culture surely didn't see a
>boarder at the 49th (?) parallel.
>
>> >
>> >On a related subject, I have been wondering about tipi liners for a =
while.
>> Out of seven historic (1774-1821) descriptions of tipi interiors in W.
>> Canada, six don't mention tipi liners. A seventh mentions something =
which
>> might be a tipi liner, but it's unclear. The only paintings of the =
inside of
>> tipis from this period, Rindisbacher's "Indian Women in Tent" and Hood'=
s
>> "Interior of a Cree Tent"(?) show tipis which clearly do not have =
liners.
>
>This does smack of white man inventiveness doesn't it?
>> =
>> So, what's going on here? Did one Native group invent the tipi liner, =
and it
>> was adopted by others later on? Or were only rich Natives able to =
afford a
>> liner, and with the general increase in Native wealth, liners became =
much
>> more common after 1821? (The one potential reference to tipi liners is =
a
>> description of the largest tipi in a camp of seven lodges.) Any =
thoughts?
>
>You seem to know quit a bit about the Saami and perhaps much more than
>me (even though I'm proud to be Finn). Someone else mentioned last year
>that their lodges didn't/don't have smoke flaps. Is that universally the
>case?
>
>Back to the Amerindian, I am thinking that from what you have pointed
>out above, liners were not the norm and perhaps a very late development
>or even a white invention. We do tend to do that. Make things better.
>There are many antidotes of how indians suffered from conditions of the
>eyes and I am thinking I have read accounts of how smoky it was said to
>have been in an indian lodge whether it was made of skins or earth or
>cedar logs and planks. Perhaps liners aren't all that authentic!
> =
>> I still remember an anthropology prof of mine, Dr. Bea Medicine, =
describing
>> her experience visiting a Saami lodge. She was said it was very smoky, =
and
>> felt that the Sioux tipi with its earflaps was a vast improvement. Fur =
posts
>> could also be very smoky.
>
>Saami lodges are not very big are they?! Any small lodge with or without
>a liner will be much more smoky that a much larger version. Perhaps that
>is what the main difference was, size. Of course my "Sioux" lodge has
>been pretty smoky from time to time with a liner and flaps. Pilot error!
>
> Alexander Henry the Younger tore down a chimney at
>> Rocky Mountain House (N. Saskatchewan. R.) & rebuilt it-- in the middle =
of
>> winter!-- because it smoked too much.
>
>He was also a white man with white man expectations and ingenuity. Well,
>that are my thoughts at least to this point. If I ever set up my lodge
>again, I will continue to use the liner and ozan. I remain.......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:32:01 -0500
From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.

    Well I probably woudn't throw mine at an enemy in a defensive situation
but I have been known to throw mine at a rabbit if I can get close enough.
I reckon if I was in Blackfoot country and didn't want them boys to know I
was there or if I didn't want to waiste my ammo on a rabbit, I might just
throw it!

"Dull Hawk"

- ----------
> From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking !
> Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:32 AM
>
> At 12:28 AM 8/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >Here's a topic!
> >
> >Can any one show me documented references to throwing a tomahawk at
> >rendezvous?
> >
> >Jim
> >
> Good point Jim, I never could understand the purpose of throwing away a
> perfectly good weapon.  If you miss, he could pick it up and whack you
with
> it, and he's likely to be a bit unhappy......
>
> I guess if you just have to throw something, there's plenty of rocks here
in
> the "shinin' mountains".
>
> Allen
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:41:43 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous Games

Jerry, As taken from the Book Of Buckskinning, Vol. V, there are lots of
games for both young children and us older children too <ggg>. Many are
suitable for both...

Card games include Whist (similar to bridge), Vingt-et-un (21 or black-jack),
Loo, Cribbage, Fan-Tan, Poker, Faro and Spanish Monte.

There are also correct board games like Pente', Chess, Draughts, Tables,
Goose, Shove Ha'Penny, Shovel Board, Nine-Mens Morris, Fox and Geese among
others.

There were also dice games like craps (Hazard). Dominoes, Sweat-cloth
(chuck-a-luck)

Other childrens games might include Marbles, Jacks, Mumblety-Peg, Prisoners
Base, Quoits & Horseshoes, and Coin tosses.

Ball games listed include Stool Ball, Trap Ball, Cricket, One-Old-Cat,
Rounders, Town Ball, Baseball, Football, and the ancient Golf.

There are also bowling type games such as Nine Pins.

If you need instructions, contact me off-list and I'll forward them, or pick
up a copy of B o B Vol 5, and watch the fun begin.

Hope this helps,   Barn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:23:00 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:41:10 -0600 [e-mail] (Angela
Gottfred) writes:
>This is a very interesting idea. Has anyone with a small tipi tried it
>
>without a liner? Anyone want to try?
angela
the liner makes a difference in both a small and a large teepee---have
both and use when  I plan on a fire inside them---makes a big
difference---summer months I cook outside so dont usually put the liner
in but in the winter I almost always use it because i plan to have a fire
inside---
YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:46:21 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Low Shooter [off topic]

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:55:43 -0700 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
writes:

>  Hawk, there is a greybearded old feller over hear in Texas that you
>need
>to meet.  Get you two together and it would be worth the price of
>admission
>just to sit and listen.
Pendleton
who are you speaking of---did some shooting in texas in the 70's and
lived between dallas and ft worth in the 50's--in  1976 I burned over 125
lb of powder going to matches and shootingshot ever weekend except
one---(arkansas--okla--kansas---mo--tenn----ill---Ohio---ky--miss--va---and
a few other states)---mostly trying to make life miserable for JL
Hargus---he started out beating me regulary then it got to be a 50-50
split on the matches and finally  i  would get him so un-nerved he
wouldnt even shoot near me---he is one of the most consistant flint
shooters I ever saw---was at saunders match one year shooting next to him
I posted a 49 3x Off hand at 50 on a big  bull and he was shooting and
just finished I asked him how it was going ---told me that relay he had 2
hangfires and 3 flinches---he posted a 50 -3x " I really got on him after
that target  and he didnt post anything over a 45 the rest of the
day---kept asking him wonder what you are going to do when you start
shooting good---and you got good equipment---his old flint gun was black
taped into the barrel channel---no pins or keys in the slots---
YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 1999 08:33:31 -0700
From: "Buck" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling

On Tue, 31 August 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:

>
>          Reply to:   Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
> Food for thought:  The first TP's sere made of skins which would keep the wind out better and be warmer than canvas.  Would the first ones not need a liner until made from canvas would require one?
>
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

At the making of Centennial (rendezvous scene) done near Estes Park CO. There was a large hide tipi setup, no liner, one morning it was pretty damp and someone started a fire in the tipi (pretty smokey inside), several that had and spent a lot of time with tipi's, played with the flaps, tried different things and even change the firewood - but still had the smokey condition. A few days later someone put a make shift liner in it and corrected the problem. The experts claimed it couldn't breathe with the dense hides and would make a great smoker for smoking hides or meat, before putting in the liner !


Later,
Buck Conner

AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
__________________________________

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The Tomahawk & Long Rifle
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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:12:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TOPIC----Help

OK. here's the deal.
 I just became the owner of about 50 pounds of EMU fat.
 I know someone on the list will know how to render it to make Emu Oil.
 Also should some " Sent " perfume be added.
 Any help out there?
 George Noe

===
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:10 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Games At Rendezvous

Jerry, As taken from the Book Of Buckskinning, Vol. V, there are lots of
games for both young children and us older children too <ggg>. Many are
suitable for both...

Card games include Whist (similar to bridge), Vingt-et-un (21 or black-jack),
Loo, Cribbage, Fan-Tan, Poker, Faro and Spanish Monte.

There are also correct board games like Pente', Chess, Draughts, Tables,
Goose, Shove Ha'Penny, Shovel Board, Nine-Mens Morris, Fox and Geese among
others.

There were also dice games like craps (Hazard). Dominoes, Sweat-cloth
(chuck-a-luck)

Other childrens games might include Marbles, Jacks, Mumblety-Peg, Prisoners
Base, Quoits & Horseshoes, and Coin tosses.

Ball games listed include Stool Ball, Trap Ball, Cricket, One-Old-Cat,
Rounders, Town Ball, Baseball, Football, and the ancient Golf.

There are also bowling type games such as Nine Pins.

If you need instructions, contact me off-list and I'll forward them, or pick
up a copy of B o B Vol 5, and watch the fun begin.

Hope this helps,   Barn

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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 23:29:26 -0600
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.

At 07:32 PM 8/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>    Well I probably woudn't throw mine at an enemy in a defensive situation
>but I have been known to throw mine at a rabbit if I can get close enough.
>I reckon if I was in Blackfoot country and didn't want them boys to know I
>was there or if I didn't want to waiste my ammo on a rabbit, I might just
>throw it!
>
>"Dull Hawk"
>
Reckon that's a supporting point to not throwing it as well.  Bug's Boys
being about, that it.  But everywhere them varmints populate, there'll be a
rock nearby.  Tossing your blade could give you a "dull hawk" and they're a
bear to sharpen after they hit one of the many rocks.

Allen

>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:51:52 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Spurs

In a message dated 8/26/99 8:15:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Many came from the east .........what
 design spurs would those folks have used?  Rev. War designs, typical English
 stuff.....what? >>

If you can get a copy of "The Book of The Continental Souldier by Harold L.
Peterson  thru inter library loan you will find the information you need on
pages 215 -216.    But to quote:  "Revolutionary spurs might be made of iron
for the simpler types, but brass was commonn and silver was used for better
specimens.  Sometimes the arch es were hinged, but usually they were solid.
The combination of one stud and one buckle was common for attaching the strap
that passed over the instep, while two studs were usual for the lower strap.
Sometimes, however, there were simply double loops at the ends of the arms
for straps to be sewed fast or otherwise attached.  George Washington, for
one, had silver spurs with such loops from which short lenghts of chain held
both buckles and studs.  The mecks might be straitht but more often curved
slightly downwards.  "  Many had Rowels in a star shape or wheel with
serrated dege and many had just a straight shank ending in a blunt end.  And
if fact from the illustrations I have seen and played with (I own an original
1700's set that I ride in) they were not much different than the modern
english riding spurs available today as far as the neck/shank designs
available.  It should be remembered that the modern english riding equipment
has a long military history that keep styles consistant even into modern
times.

In the "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" by
George C. Neumann and Frank J. Kravic on page 249 you will find pictures of
several styles of original spurs ranging from silver to tinned iron.  If you
were to look at illustration #5 and then go to a Dover (modern english
equestrian) catalog you could order that spur today and be correct as long as
you use leather spur straps.

Sorry this reply took so long but we have spent more time camping the last
few weeks than we have at the computer.

Your humble servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:35:36 PDT
From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.

According to my research, trappers carried small axe's rather than the
tomahawks we see today, the tomahawks were made exclusively for the indian
trade.  The trapper's axe was a very important tool to his trade, requiring
a heavy head, and a poll.  They were necessary for cutting, preparing, and
driving trap stakes, and butchering large game, basically uunsuitable for
throwing.
I doubt they risked such a tool on throwing for fun.  As Allen mentioned
this could be devestating to a blade's edge,and equally dangerous to a good
handle, which would be hard to replace in some parts of the mountains.  The
uniform pre-fab handles that we can buy today were not available, and
shaping one for an individuals axe would  be a pretty good chore.


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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 12:10:31 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.

Chance,
 I pretty much this same warning on the "Hawk" page of my website...You break
it, you better be handy ith a rasp..<G>
Dennis

Chance Tiffie wrote:

> I doubt they risked such a tool on throwing for fun.  As Allen mentioned
> this could be devestating to a blade's edge,and equally dangerous to a good
> handle, which would be hard to replace in some parts of the mountains.  The
> uniform pre-fab handles that we can buy today were not available, and
> shaping one for an individuals axe would  be a pretty good chore.

- --

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1

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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:15:16 -0700
From: Huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.

  There seems to be two questions going on here. 1.) Was a tomahawk ever
thrown at Rendezvous? (Apparently as a "sport" as we do it today) 2.) Was a
tomahawk ever used as a thrown weapon in battle? (The responses seem to be
towards that unasked question.)  I know of no documentation of tomahawk
competitions at rendezvous but there are several accounts of Indians using
the thrown tomahawk as a weapon of war.  The battle ax is an ancient weapon
going back to European and Asian warfare.  The Franks designed a "throwing
ax" that has been reproduced, so the military application is in the records.
    My favorite example of a thrown tomahawk used in American warfare was the
Cherry Valley battle of Nov. 11, 1778. A combined force of Tory forces
under the command of Walter Butler, Senecas under Litle Beard and Mohawks
under Joseph Brant attacked the American soldiers and civilians of Colonel
Ichabod Alden.  A fort named after the Colonel was the main defense of the
area but of little use to the farmers or, for that matter, to the American
commander.  Allan Eckert in his book "Wilderness War" offers this account:
    "Colonel Ichabod Alden had run out the front door, heading towards the
main road and fort.  All the attackers were pretty much occupied and,
incredibly, at first no one saw the commander escaping.  He was halfway
down to the road before one of the Mohawks with Brant suddenly shouted,
"There goes the Coronel!"  Instantly he and several others raced after him,
but by now Alden had a great head start.  Seeing what was happening,
Brant...tomahwak still in hand,...was off,...angling diagonally through the
woods in an effort to cut off Alden before he could reach the fort./ At the
fort the log gate was still being held open a man's width to allow him entry.
    Alden might have made it had he continued running without breaking stride.
 However, hearing the sound of pursuit and looking over his shoulder, he
observed Brant chasing him and at this he commited his final act of
stupidity.  He abruptly stopped and leveled his flintlock pistol toward the
Mohawk war chief.
    In that same instant Brant, still thirty feet distant, threw his tomahawk.
 Before the trigger could be squeezed, the blade caught Alden in the center
of his forehead and killed him.  Those in the fort could see what was
happening, but due to its poor and unfinished construction, they were
unable to shoot well without badly exposing themselves.
    Ignoring the scattered bullets,...Brant ran up to Alden, jerked the
tomahawk out of the officer's head and scalped him."
    Of couse, this is a dramatized account of the incident but it was well
known at the time.  Eckert gives "Annals of Tyron County" by William
Campbell and "The Letters of J. N. Clyde" as documented sources.  There is
at least one other such account in this book of a thrown tomahawk bringing
down a fleeing man.
    Like others, I found the idea of throwing away one's weapon foolish and,
therefore, unpracticed.  But research continues to educate me of this time
I love so well.  Now, I hope, it can educate others.

"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber

At 07:32 PM 8/31/99 -0500, Douglas  Hepner wrote:
>    Well I probably woudn't throw mine at an enemy in a defensive situation
>but I have been known to throw mine at a rabbit if I can get close enough.
>I reckon if I was in Blackfoot country and didn't want them boys to know I
>was there or if I didn't want to waiste my ammo on a rabbit, I might just
>throw it!
>
>"Dull Hawk"
>
>----------
>> From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking !
>> Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:32 AM
>>
>> At 12:28 AM 8/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
>> >Here's a topic!
>> >
>> >Can any one show me documented references to throwing a tomahawk at
>> >rendezvous?
>> >
>> >Jim
>> >
>> Good point Jim, I never could understand the purpose of throwing away a
>> perfectly good weapon.  If you miss, he could pick it up and whack you
>with
>> it, and he's likely to be a bit unhappy......
>>
>> I guess if you just have to throw something, there's plenty of rocks here
>in
>> the "shinin' mountains".
>>
>> Allen
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:24:39 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.

throw a weapon away?  and especially what is essentially a weapon of last
resort at that?   maybe, but only at something that couldn't pick it up and
kill you with it.....       Barn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:34:13 -0400
From: "Laura Glise" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mr. James Bridger

Was James Bridger tall?

I've read physical descriptions of other trappers, but I don't recollect reading about Bridger's height?

That was simple, wasn't it?

Laura Glise
[e-mail]



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