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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:09:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms
Henry,
Talked to George Thompson, Capitain of the AMM this evening, who is also a
docent at La Purisima Mission and I was mistaken about the Brown Bess
Muskets at La Purisima in the 1820s. George said that the reason they had
Brown Bess Muskets on display was because the correct guns were stolen and
this is what they got to replace them. They picked Brown Bess Muskets
because they were just about everywhere during that time period.
He told me that the guns that they did have were Miguelet (I hope I spelled
it right) Muskets, which were made in Spain. George told me that one of our
AMM Brothers (Carl Herder) actually has an original and that another (Joe
Curtis) has made reproductions in the past. If you would like, I will get
their numbers because they are not on the net to my knowledge.
Best Regards,
Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:04:59 -0500
From: Mike Rock <mikerock@mhtc.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: The long awaited, ***Old Files to New Knives, copied from the original.***
I have not been able to contact Jim Kelly, my friend, and author of this
article. He works for Rolled Alloys, in Michigan, and is an excellent
metallurgist, blackpowder shooter, and amateur smith. I don't think he
will use a skinning knife of me, and this is an excellent article.
Mike Rock
Old Files and New Knives
Jim Kelly, January, 1987
"Used files are the handies source of high carbon steel available to
the home craftsman. treat them right and they'll make wood chisels
finer than any on the market, as well as excellent knives. But, if you
forge them like mild steel and heat reat carelessly, the result can be
brittle tools with crumbly edges. Doing it right means forging and
hardening from controlled, moderate to low temperature.
First, some light background in steel metallurgy. Most of you know
that steel is hardened by heating to red heaat, then quenching in oil or
water. Do this to low carbon steel and nothing much happens. It will
remain rather soft. This is because steel must have a certain amount of
carbon in it before it will harden. Very roughly speaking, the higher
the carbon, the higher the as quenched hardness and wear resistance, but
the lower in toughness.
Some examples. Commonly available cold drawn steel is generally AISI
1018. The '10' means plain carbon steel, and the '18' means a nominal
0.18%by weight carbon content. Heat this steel red hot, quench in cold
water and it will harden a little, but not enough to be useful.
Normally the only heattrreatment done to 1018 would be to case carburize
it. Commonmachine shafting, axles, and some modern shotgun barrels are
AISI 1035 (nominally 0.35% carbon). This steel responds to heat
treatment. If small pieces are water quenched, and then tempered
peacock blue, they will attain a spring hardness (but, no, this does not
mean that 1035 is useful spring steel). AISI 1060 (0.55 to 0.65%
carbon) is used for sledge hammers and cold shisels, shich must be hard,
yet take a beating. As the carbon content of steel increases, the as-
quenched hardness also increases, up to a level of about 0.6% carbon.
Above this, higher carbon increases hardness (that is, resistance to
being dented) onlyu slightly> But wear resistance does continue to
improve with sill higher carbon, above 0.6%. The excess carbon can form
many fine, hard iron carbide particles which help retain sharp edges and
resist abrasion. Common wood saws and older power lawnmower blades are
AISI 1070 to 1080 (0.7 to 0.8% carbon). Axes are 1086 and str drills
are 1095.
1095, with carbon ranging from 0.90 to 1.03%, is the highest carbon
plain carbon steel you can find in steel warehouses. Since the
beginning of this decade Nicholson/Black Diamond files have been 1095.
1095 steel makes good general purpose knives, daggers, firesteels and
wood working tools.
Back to files. Obviously, file teeth must be extremely hard and wear
resistant to stay sharp while cutting metal. For centureis, files have
been made of either soft iron, which is then case hardened, or high
carbon steel. Even high carbon steel files may be coated with some
mixure to lightly case harden them. Thisis so the razor fine cutting
edge dosn't burn off when heated cherry red to harden it.
In 'The Thirteenth Book of Narural Magik', 1589, G.B. Della Porta
describes 'ways whereby Iron may be made extream hard'. To harden files
he says:
'Take Ox hoofs, and put them nto an oven to dry, that they may be
powdered fine; mingle well one part of this with as much common salt,
beaten glass, and chimney-soot, and beat them together, and lay them up
for your use in a wooden vessel hanging in the smoak; for the salt will
melt with any moisture on the place, or air. The powder being prepared,
make your Iron like to a file; then cut it chequerwise, and crosswayes,
with a sharp edged tool: having made the Iron tender and soft, as I
said, then make an Iron chest fit to lay up your files in, and put them
into it, strewing on the powder by course, that they may be covered aoll
ocer: then put on the cover, and lute will the chinks with clay and
straw, that the smoak of the powder may not breath out; and lay a heap
of burning coals all over it, that if may be red-hot about an hour:when
you think the powder to be burnt and consumed, take the chest out from
the coals with Iron pincers, and plunge the files into very cold water,
and so they will become extream hard. This is the usual temper for
files; for we fear not if the files should be wrested by cold waters.'
This four hundred year old process is metallurgically entirely correct.
The chimner soot, of course, is a nearly pure source of carbon the
carburize or case harden the surface. 'Ox hoofs', along with carbon,
provide nitrogen which further improves sliding wear resistance. Salt
and glass melt the whole mess together to provide intimate contact with
the iron. They also probably catalyse or enable the high temperature
chemical reactions which get the carbon into the iron. And, even today
the 'usual temper for files' is just as they come from the quench, with
no further reheat(or draw).
Until recent years when the EPA became overly concerned, modern
practice was to coat high carbon steel files with a roughly similar
mixture before hardening from a protective lead bath [heated quite red,
to provide the heat--lead is a commonly used heat treat heating bath, as
is molten salt--Mike]. The moder version of Ox hoofs is potassium
ferrocyanide (K4Fe (CN)6. This is mixed with flour and bone black, and
all are boiled together in salt water. Both files and rasps were coated
with this 'cyanide loaf'. Rasps still are, as it is necessary to case
harden the 1035 steel from which they are made.
While the currently used 1095 processes into a very good file, I
suggest you get ahold of pre-1980 files to make the best edge holding
tools. These older files will be of 1.2 to 1.4% carbon steel, which is
higher carbon than van be found anywhere else. Other than your memory
there a couple of ways of telling which are the older files. One is
that files marked only 'Black Diamond' were made in 1975 or earlier, and
are difinitely 10130 (1.3% carbon) steel.
After that year the manufacturer stamped 'Black Diamond' on one side
and 'Nicholson' on the other. The other idstinction is the tang. It
used tobe that to same metal the tangs were hot'rolled from the file
bland with little waste. [these tangs generally taper BOTH in length AND
thickness--Mike] By 1978 it was more economical to use a longer blank
and shear off metal to form the tang. [these tangs taper only in the
length--Mike]. A sheared tang will appear obviously different than a
hot rolled tang.
The ultra high carbon of these older files makes the steel capable of
taking and holding a razor edge and suits it for the very finest of wood
cutting tools. This high carbon also makes the steel more tricky to
forge and heat threa than, say, an AISI 1070 spring steel. If you
overheat and coarsen the grain of your file steel it will not be capable
of taking the finest edge.
That old Nicholson file in your scrap bod was heated for about five
minutes in a molten lead bath at 1440 Degrees F., quenched in brine to
get maximum hardness, and then NOT tempered at all.
Let's do the simplest job first, and make a straight wood chisel or
wood turning tool out of that old file. Most commercially available
wood chisels ae not eally meant either to take or hold a fine edge. The
best on the maker these days are, sad to say, Japanese, such as Oiichi
or Iyoroi. Well, you can match these chisels. Just grind your file to
the shape you want, usually with a 25 to 30 degree bevel. Use plenty of
water so not to soften it, or, worse yet, crack it. The best bet is to
first scrub off all old oil and grease. This is necessary to preserve
domestic tranquility as you are about to temper the thing at 350 degrees
in Wife's oven, for a good hour. This will relieve a lot of internal
stress 9like taking one small glass of wine) and prevent the fine edge
from chipping. The safest thing to do is temper before you grind it to
shape, so it is less likely to crack in grinding. I suggest 300-350
degrees F, which is very light straw.
After tempering for an hour the straw may deepen somewhat. Do not trust
the temperature settings on kitchen ovens, try a scrap piece first and
go by the temper color, or by a Tempilstik.
You now have a wood chisel which willhold as good or better edge than
anything on the market today.
This choice of seel and temper will not make a good bowie knife,
although it would be great for a skinning knife. That 350 degree F
temper leaves the metal rather too brittle to handle the rough use of
our average camp knife. A skinning knife must hold a good edge through
a lot of cutting. Hopefully, you all won't use your skinning knives to
chop wood, bone and tin cans as well.
For bowies, daggers and firesteels I'd first suggest using a post-1980
file of 1095 steel. This will still hold a good edge but be a little
tougher than the older 10130 steel. Temper a bit before grinding to
shape. For most knives I suggest tempering at 500 degrees F. Thatis a
mottled brown to purple temper color. Again, I'd use the household oven
for about an hour. And don't trust the temperature setting on that
dial!
We have about come to the point where we've gotta get serious about
temperature measurement. Pyrometers, thermocouples and electronically
controlled electric heat treat furnaces ust aren't in your budget, are
they? Do forget about judging temperature, at red heat, by eye. Even
professional heat treaters can be off by 200 degrees F when checked
against the cold, unfriendly pyrometers. Well, there is hope for the low
budget shop. That is, an inexpensive and very accurate metod of
temperature measurement, called a Tempilstik. This thing is a
calibrated crayon. Let's say you sprung $6 or so for a 500 degree f
temperature indicating crayon. First, mark your workpiece with this
crayon. Heat the etal. The crayon mark will change color, that means
nothing. But, as soon as the metal reaches 500 degrees F, that dry
opaque mark will change to a distinct melted mark. Really, you should
also mark it with a 525 degree F Tempilstif so you will know if it got
too hot.
These things are easy to use and they are accurate. The 500 degree F
Tempilstik is accurate to +/- 5 degrees F. Above 700 degrees F or so,
the procedure is to stroke the hot metal with the Tempilstik now and
again during heating. When the metal reachs temperature, the crayon
will leave a liquid smear [the 'feel' of the stroke changes too. This
lets you work kinda blind, inside your fire--Mike]. The cost of
Tempilstiks is currently $5.90 in quantities from 1-9. They are carried
by welding suply distributors, or may be had direct from: Tempil
Division, Big Three Industries, Inc., 2901 Hamilton Blvd., south
Plainfield, N.J. 07080 (201-757-8300. Minimum order is three
Tempilstiks, and include some postage. [I will check and confirm this
address and telephone number--Mike].
Back to files. It is more fun to forge a blade to shape than to grind
it, so let's get into the nitty gritty.
Forging high carbon steel is a very different matter than working mild
steel. Yes, you blacksmith types know it is easier to burn high carbon
steel. But even if you don't burn it, forging a 1.3% Carbon file from a
white heat and slow cooling it can coarsen the grain and make it rather
brittle at any temper. One problem is all that carbon. When steel
contains more than 0.8% carbon, it is easy to get a brittle iron carbide
network. Huh?? Well, the excess carbon can form a brittle carbide layer
around each grain. Back up further! all metals, including steel,
consist of millions of tiny crystals, all stuck together. Imagine a
pile of graped that have been pressed together without breaking the
skins. each grapeis roughly the same shape as a metal crystal or
'grain'. If you overheat and slow cool a file, the 'skins' of each of
the little 'grape' will be hard and glass brittle. That translates into
a cutting edge that easile becomes radded or crumbles.
I suggest forging that file, especially if it is the old 10130 steel,
as if it was a true Damascus (Wootz) steel.
That is, heat to a much lower temperature than usual. This means fore
muscle butit will also keep the metal fine grained, which is most
important. damascus, which could be as high as 2% carbon, is forged
starting at 1550-1600 degrees F and finished at a blood red, about 1200
degrees F.
There is really no way you can jusde a 1660 degree F starting
temperature by eye. If you are serious about fine work and don't like
throwing hours of your time and material into the scrap bin, invest in a
couple of Tempilstiks, rated at say, 1550 and 1600 degrees F. Once the
blade has been forged you should always anneal it to reduce chances of
warping and cracking during the hardening operation. The safest way to
do this is to heat the blade 1300-1400 degrees F for half an hour or so,
and bury it in ashes or lime to cool slowly.
[Omitting this pre-hardening anneal is about the single greatest cause
of amateur smith's failures in hardening steel--mike]
Most steels are annealed from a higher temperature. I am suggesting
this lower anneal to keep the fine grain structure and fine carbide
distribution you got by forging that old 1.3% carbon file down in the
cherry to blood red range. [sub-critical anneal--breaks up any fine
carbide network--Mike]
Now that you have forged and annealed the blad, grind it all over to
near final shape. you MUST grind off the scaled, decruburized surface
or it will crack in heat treatment. When yu heat in the forge, some of
theiron oxidizes to a blue-gray scale. that is obvious. But, some of
the carbon literally burns out of the steel's surface. This is just the
opposite of case hardening. If you leave that thin, soft, low carbon
skin on the blade, paradoxically enouth it WILL crack when quenched in
water or brine.
To harden that file steel, heat to 14401450 degrees F for about 4-5
minutes and brine quench. Again, invest in a 1425 and a 1450
Tempilstik. Do NOT overheat it!
The quench is important. If you want to be really traditional, you
could use the urine of a three year old goat fed only ferns for three
days. However, today there is a better way, particularly for apartment
dwellers and other Urban Folk. That is salt brine. Mix just 13 ounces
of common salt in a gallon of fresh water. That makes a 9% brine
solution. This brine will quench twice as good as water. [extract heat
from the steel at twice the rate--Mike]. It reduces the chances of
cracking and warping and makes a harder part. Brine is, of course, less
fragrant than the aforementioned animal product. Keep your brine cool or
at no more that room temperature.
Don't quench file steel in oil. That won't harden it well at all.
How you dunk the knife in the brine quench is important. If you
belly-flop it in, it is guaranteed to warp, and it may crack. Plunge
the hot knife straight into the brine, and it will come out reasonably
straight. It will be more straight if you quench in brine than if you
quench in water. this is because brine quenches the steel more
uniformly all over. Move the knife in a figure 8 motion while it
sizzles in the brine. This gives a more uniform quench. Remove it
while it is still warm and temper as soon as possible.
Tempering quickly is important, lest the metal decide to crack while
resting quietly on your workbench. [that tell tale 'click' in a quiet
shop is VERY disheartening--Mike]. The word 'temper' these days means
to reheat a quenched part to make it softer and tougher. for knives of
file steel I temper at least at 450 degrees F, preferable 500 degrees F.
If you forged a firesteel out of an AISI 1095 steel file, I would
temper 500 to 600 degrees F. You might temper first at 500 degrees F
and try striking spark. If it seems too hard, retemper at 600 degrees F
(the blue beyond purple).
If the knife blade is crooked, temper it first before you try to
straighten it!! [Cool to room temperature after all tempering or
annealing operations-mike]. Then heat it to 300 degrees F again (straw
to brown) and straighten while hot. DO NOT heat the steel a beautiful
blue and try to straighten at this temperature. Steel has a peculiar
brittleness while it is in the blue range (550-600 degrees F). [This
range is known as the blue-brittle range for a reason, and is avoided
like the plague in industry--there is also a black heat, 885 degrees F
known as 'black shearing heat' where a two inch bar of steel can be cut
cleanly with a 2# hammer and a cold chisel--Mike].
This toughness, by the way, is important in a farriers rasp. When
shoeing a horse I understand it is occasionally necessary to get the
beast's attention. This is accompolished by rapping them on the hoof.
High carbon farrier's rasps tend to break during this endeavor. Hence,
they are made of tough 1035, lightly cased. [anyone comfirm this???????
- --Mike]
you can forge the rasp steel from high temperatures without embrittling
itl when you're finished, take the forging and normalize ti by heating
to 1575-1650 degrees F and air cool. This refines the grain which may
have coarsened in the forge. It is very important that the steel be
fine grained. Fine grain steel in remarkably tougher than coarse
grain. All steel forgings shold be annealed or normalized to impreve
their toughness.
To harden that rasp steel, heat 1525-1600 degrees F and quench in cold
brine. For a tough throwing knife, temper about 700 degrees F. This
discussion holds for American made Nicholson or Black Diamond rasps. If
you are wont to purchase asian products I might suggest you contact an
Asian metallurgist regarding how best to treat them.
[I would suggest the obvious......BUY AMERICAN, BE AMERICAN --Mike]
I would like to thank Jim for this fine article, and hope your patience
on this thread was not exhausted by the length.
Mike Rock
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:42:45 EDT
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous
Last week the Carson museum called them wifes.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:46:14 EDT
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006
Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL?
TrapRJoe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:51:42 -0600
From: "Sickler, Louis L" <louis.l.sickler@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006
IT IS
www.nationaltrappers.com
Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TrapRJoe@aol.com [SMTP:TrapRJoe@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 8:46 AM
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006
>
> Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL?
>
> TrapRJoe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:52:20 -0600
From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women at Rendezvous
Iron Burner & Capt. Lahti have stolen some of my thunder, but I have to
chime in to agree: lots of women were involved in the fur trade. Just
because they weren't white doesn't mean that they don't count.
Iron Burner <llsi@texas.net> wrote:
>When I asked a matronly museum volunteer about that, she coyly implied that
>they [Kit Carson's native American wives] weren't really wives.
That reminds me of a story. (My apologies if I've already told this one on
the list!) In 1836, the Rev. Herbert Beaver arrived at Fort Vancouver to
collide headfirst with Dr. John McLoughlin over the subject of McLoughlin's
mixed-blood (half-breed) country wife, Marguerite. Dr. McLoughlin married
her at Rainy Lake "according to the custom of the country" in 1811. At that
time, there was no clergyman for hundreds of miles around (and no justices
of the peace either), so a common-law marriage was his only option. Beaver,
however, called Marguerite a "kept Mistress" who should not be allowed to
associate with decently married couples. When Beaver continued his abuse
even after Chief Trader James Douglas married the McLoughlins in a civil
ceremony (Douglas was also a JP), Dr. McLoughlin gave Beaver a sound
thrashing with his own cane. (All of the above is from Van Kirk, 155-157)
In short, had you suggested to many Canadian fur traders that their "country
wives" weren't _really_ wives, you would have been in deep yogurt. I must
hasten to add, however, that some fur traders were less honorable than Dr.
McLoughlin, James Douglas, Daniel Harmon, David Thompson, and John McDonald
of Garth (just to name a few). These other men (George Simpson, for example)
considered their country wives to, in fact, be "kept Mistresses", and
treated them accordingly. I would not be so bold as to suggest which
category Kit Carson fell into.
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
agottfre@telusplanet.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 05:30:11 -0400
From: ad.miller@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006
*chuckles* The URL is hte web address of a site... http:// then.....
address
- -----Original Message-----
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com <TrapRJoe@aol.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006
>Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL?
>
> TrapRJoe
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:49:15 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006
TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote:
> Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL?
>
> TrapRJoe
TrapRJoe,
I think that's a range of mountains in Russia. Just a guess, <G>I
remain..........
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:18:13 -0600
From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote:
>it was specifically mentioned that the voyageurs
>carried no firearms and the chief trader carried a Manton shotgun, but I
>think there were others traveling with the group who may have had guns.
>Perhaps, guides or interpreters who were part of the company but not
>specifically mentioned.
Don't forget the clerks! In the Canadian fur trade from about 1794 to 1811,
there was a spot called La Mont'ee on the Saskatchewan River at the eastern
edge of the plains (later it was the site of Fort Carlton). It was a horse
corral. When the returning canoes reached this point, the clerks and
bourgeois left the voyageurs to continue on upstream, while they mounted
horses and hunted buffalo & elk to supply the party with meat on the last
leg of their journey. Every evening they found the voyageurs & camped with
them (well, almost every evening--sometimes they couldn't find the voyageur
camp!)
>A specific
>description of the voyageur's finest was included.
I don't suppose you could pass this on to me?
Thanks for the info on the book; I'll have to see if I can track it down.
Tony Clark wrote:
>I decided to try to find the routes the traders took from La Vieux Desert to
>Lake Superior.Logic told me it was the Ontanogan which was only a 60 mile
>trip with no portages in high water. I was wrong. The routes that were
>primarily used where MOSTLY portages. One of the routes I eventually found
>on an original map and it started off with a portage which had 120 "pauses"!
>I'm not sure how far a pause is, but it was a looong way to portage.
I bet a 'pause' is the same as a 'pose', which was about a half mile. This
is one LOOONG portage. In Canada, the longest fur trade portages I know of
were Portage La Loche (aka Methy Portage), which was twelve miles over the
height of land separating the Hudson's Bay watershed from the Athabasca
watershed, and Grand Portage, which was nine miles long. There were also
Howse Pass and Athabasca Pass (both in the Rockies), however, which were
entirely different, since the canoes were not carried over the passes but
left on either end. Also, horses were often used to help cross these passes.
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
agottfre@telusplanet.net
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jul 1999 13:15:49 -0700
From: <turtle@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: razor stropping
Lanney,
Thanks bud, I looked on Clark & Sons website, found the shaving stuff and now I'm in trouble; ordered all the goodies - straight razor, after shave, badger brush, soap, strop and the brass shaving mug. If I cut myself - this will please the little woman, if I don't - she may cut me. This looks like a no win deal !
Turtle
> On Wed, 21 July 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote:
>
> THIS I have printed and saved to several files. It is the information I needed. Thanks, Buck. I hope you sell a pile of these razors.......refer 'em to me if you like.
> YMOS
> Lanney
> > -Lanney,
> >
> > As promised here's more information, in process of doing an article on shaving and equipage for the T&LR journal.
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jul 1999 13:29:50 -0700
From: <turtle@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
Tony,
Sounds like you two have a lot in common, I remember reading in "Canoe" magazine about the "Colorado Five" making the 1260 river mile trip (one way) and several other articles about them doing other long trips in other magazines, all period. Don't know about the Mississippi and that traffic, bridges and other stuff in the water while in a canoe today. Don't know if this group is still around or if they have done any big lakes like you mentioned.
One of that group, Bill Jones told me the average age on the long trip was 50, and they had a great time, Buck had just had his back fused a year before and still went, he's lucky it held together - understand it went and had to have a steel pin a year or so later. Does anyone know if they still do these trips or not anymore, Buck you out there.
Turtle.
> Buck,
> Sorry to put you and the rest of the good folks on the list through our ...
> faaailure...tocommunicate.
> I 've read enough first hand accounts to want to do more than talk about the
> water routes these early traders used. I to have traveled literally
> thousands of miles over the very routes they used. Talk about dragging
> canoes through shallow water,I know what thats like!, my canoe can carry
> 1100# never had it quite that heavy, but close on a few trips, heading down
> a river was always a real adventure (going up was a pain in the arse).
> Sometimes you never knew what you where going to encounter. Some of my most
> memorable trips where on Superior itself. Beautiful country but very
> unforgiving to those who aren't careful and prepared. Sometimes that isn't
> enough. The main point I was trying to make to Kestrel took me a few years
> of traveling these water routes to discover, and it's the simple fact that
> the water route with the fewest portages does not make nessacarily the best
> route. Example: There was an American Fur Company post on lake Le Vieux
> Desert to the north of me. This was an ideal location for a post
> (the closest town is called Watersmeet, they really do here) because 2 miles
> to the north the Ontanogan River flowed into Superior,The Wisconsin River
> flowed out of the lake it being its headwaters, to the east was the Brule R
> which flowed into the Menominee which then went to Lake Michigan. For laughs
> I decided to try to find the routes the traders took from La Vieux Desert to
> Lake Superior.Logic told me it was the Ontanogan which was only a 60 mile
> trip with no portages in high water. I was wrong. The routes that where
> primarily used where MOSTLY portages. One of the routes I eventually found
> on an original map and it started off with a portage which had 120 "pauses"!
> I'm not sure how far a pause is, but it was a looong way to portage. Why did
> they choose routes that had so many portages? I believe it may have been
> because many times they did not have extremely large loads to transport,
> after all we aren't talking about the Athabascan country. Compared to that
> these posts in WI where relatively close to the Forts that resupplyed them,
> maybe they where supplied several times a season. I also think other factors
> as simple as the bugs being bad(or other very mundane reasons) effected the
> use of certain routes.If EVERY factor was equal obviously the quickest route
> that required the least amount of work was used, but until a person attempts
> to follow in the footsteps of these early travelers they have NO idea the
> factors that are involved. Even after reading about it. Like the remark you
> made about the condition of modern man, "our life styles have made us take a
> back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers" that was well
> said but I have lots of fun and plenty of great memories trying to emulate
> them as I am sure you also do!
>
> Take care,
> Tony Clark
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:44:13 EDT
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
> >A specific description of the voyageur's finest was included.
> I don't suppose you could pass this on to me?
Sorry, Angela
As I mentioned, they were quick reads; I whizzed through the autbiography
quickly and only got through a couple of chapters of SwiftWalker before Deb's
interlibrary loan time was up.
One thing that did catch my eye was the fact that they put on "white" sashes
as part of this finery. Any idea what they were?
> Thanks for the info on the book; I'll have to see if I can track it down.
Better hurry.....I'm gonna buy the cheapest copies I find before anyone else
grabs them. <G>
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:00:17 -0500
From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
- -----Original Message-----
From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
Angela wrote:
>>I bet a 'pause' is the same as a 'pose', which was about a half mile. This
is one LOOONG portage. In Canada, the longest fur trade portages I know of
were Portage La Loche (aka Methy Portage), which was twelve miles over the
height of land separating the Hudson's Bay watershed from the Athabasca
watershed, and Grand Portage, which was nine miles long. There were also
Howse Pass and Athabasca Pass (both in the Rockies), however, which were
entirely different, since the canoes were not carried over the passes but
left on either end. Also, horses were often used to help cross these
passes<<
Thank you for the information Angela. I have wondered what the approximate
distance of one of these 'pauses' was for quite some time.
I sometimes find it quite difficult to study these old maps and try and
correlate the info. that is given with a modern map because often times the
scale is so far off. The particular portage I mentioned was up the Montreal
River in northern WI. I located it on a map that was included in a letter
from James Duane Doty to Lewis Cass (the then governor of Michigan?) dated
September 27, 1820. The map is specifically of all of the major water routes
in northern WI that where in use at that time. The letter also gives 5 pages
of information dealing with the details of these routes. It was really a
great find for me. Why would they have made a portage like this to La Vieux
Desert?(By the way could you please tell me what that means?) If you look at
a map of Northern WI and the upper peninsula of Michigan it is pretty much
sandwiched between Lake Superiour and Lake Michigan. The specific area I am
describing around La Vieux Desert and Watersmeet is on the height of land
for that region, with major rivers flowing into Superior to the North and
West, The Mississippi to the South, and Lake Michigan to the East. Assuming
they were coming from Michilimakinac, they could have taken Superior to the
mouth of the Montreal, then the long portage which paralleled that river up
to a chain of lakes, then to La Vieux Desert to the post, then continue east
over the height of land to the Brule which enters the Menominee and a
leisurely trip to lake Michigan then to the fort. Thats pure speculation on
my part. I know of other routes that have quite long portages. What do you
think of my idea that the loads they were carrying may not have been
extremely large? It seems to me if one isn't burdened with an overly large
load that it may be faster to go overland rather than pull or pole it up
river in a canoe. Especially if the rivers are fast like many are here.
Also, they weren't to far from a source of supply's. This area may just be
unique in the respect that it is a 'cross roads' of sorts for water travel.
Thanks,
Tony Clark
------------------------------
End of hist_text-digest V1 #333
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