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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:06:14 -0600
From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms
Friends,
I need help for a friend/museum director. He needs to find out:
1. What types of firearms were Spaniards using, in terms of muskets and
pistols in the Spanish Borderlands (American Southwest) about 1780. Did
they use primarily Spanish-made guns? I suspect, being a colonial
backwater as this area was, they might have been issued surplus guns, but
perhaps I'm mistaken.
2. Are there any companies making repro firearms of the ones Spaniards used
at that time in that place? I know of a couple being used, like Brown Bess
and Charliville (sp), but I am not sure the Spanish were buying from
Britain or France, unless they were traded as contraband.
TIA
HBC
****************************************
Henry B. Crawford Box 43191
Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University
mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
****** Living History . . . Because It's There ******
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:18:17 -0500
From: Bishnow <bishnows@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal
Ratcliff wrote:
>
> You are almost right, Snakeshot. Gauge is determined by the number of round, bore diameter LEAD balls required to weight a pound. 20 gauge = 20 round lead balls to the pound....about .62 caliber. Caliber is the diameter of the bore expressed in 1/100's of an inch. 50 caliber = .5 inch.....that is 50/100's inch or one half inch, Denise.
> Lanney Ratcliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bishnow <bishnows@swbell.net>
> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 5:07 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal
>
> > Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote:
> > >
> > > It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. What's the
> > > similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a .54?
> > .58 calibre is 20 gauge. If I am wrong about this please someone
> > correct me. But, guage is the measure of the number of steel balls
> > that diameter that it takes to make 1 pound. 20 gauge would take
> > 20 steel balls .58 dia. to make one pound. this may not be true
> > any more but I read it somewhere once.
> >
> > Snakeshot
> >
I don't know what I was thinking. After I read my own post
I remembered that was why I put .62 balls in my 20ga.
Snakeshot
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:51:31 -0500
From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
Hey chickenhawk,
Obviously you have an inability to differentiate between a lake, river and a
stream. I won't bother the list trying to explain it to you. If you contact
me off list I would be more than happy to.
Tony Clark
- -----Original Message-----
From: kestrel@ticon.net <kestrel@ticon.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
>
>TONY!,(have I got your attention yet?)
> >>Some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable
> >>rivers or streams at all, they where situated on lakes. It was not
> >>at all uncommon to have portages from 2 to 3 miles, or farther,
> >>between bodies of water.
>
>READ THE ARCHIVES THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE(SAID?)
> "some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable rivers or
>streams at all, they were situated on lakes."
>IF YOU CAN CANOE IT, IT IS NAVIGABLE.
>
>
> Jeff Powers
> A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states!
> "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin
> 1698
>
>Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:25:06 -0400
From: "Mike Haught" <mwhaught@netwalk.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans
Foxfire #2 and #9 have chapters regarding building a horse drawn wagon.
-mwh
>
>Red Hawk Wrote:
>
> Greetings List:
> A fellow living history reenactor and friend is trying to build a covered
> wagon. He has the tools, and the expertise but does not have plans or
> dimensions. If any one could help us out with either dimensions, plans or
> point us in the right direction we would be most appreciative.
>
> YMOS
>
Red Hawk
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:51:05 EDT
From: WSmith4100@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin
slings and arrows from Boise. I just got back from our local rendezvous
"Buckskin Bill" near Cascade, ID (about 75 miles to the north), and what do I
find, insults. That's just un-neighborly! Okay, okay all joking aside, I
am pretty wired! I'm not sure how other groups dole out "Mountain man
names", but I received mine this last weekend.. My best friend was one of the
segundos and Because of some odd mishap(s) when we were camping and hunting
over the last few years, I was named "Sleeps Loudly" Y'all can do whatever
you want with that. He was much kinder than he coulda' been. So instead of
signing off as Grizz from now on, I'll just ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
That's all for now,
ymhs
Sleeps loudly,
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:18:27 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin
WSmith4100@aol.com wrote:
So instead of signing off as Grizz from now on, I'll just ZZZZZZZZZZZZ That's all
for now, ymhs
> Sleeps loudly,
> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ,
Well it is easier to type!<G> I remain......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:16:30 -0500
From: Mike Rock <mikerock@mhtc.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE Dave Kanger post on Old Northwest Portage from Chicago
Dave,
Another good book is 'Chicago and the Old Northwest, 1673-1835, A stud
of the evolution of the northwestern frontier, together with a history
of Fort Dearborn', by Milo Milton Quaife, Ph.D, Univ. of chicago Press,
1913.
Picked this up from Smokey for $US135, and it was a good deal. If you
and Angela want to arm wrestle for first borrow rights, let me know. It
has a lot on the thread, and is well researched and annotated. I
usually let books out for a month, then start hunting. You two, let me
know if you want to read this one.
Bunches more books here, too.
rock
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:41:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms
Henry,
Don't know if this will help, but since some of us are at La Purisima
Mission here in California, I have a little bit of info for you that might help.
I know that it was documented that at La Purisima in around 1823-1827 they
had Brown Bess muskets (I'm not sure which model they carried, but could
fine out if needed.) Also, Santa Ana's troops carried 3rd Model Brown Bess
Muskets.
Knowing these pieces of information, I guess you could extrapolate that in
1780, they would possible have also had surplus muskets (maybe 1st Model
Brown Bess?) I will see what I can find out from the people who run La
>I need help for a friend/museum director. He needs to find out:
>
>1. What types of firearms were Spaniards using, in terms of muskets and
>pistols in the Spanish Borderlands (American Southwest) about 1780. Did
>they use primarily Spanish-made guns? I suspect, being a colonial
>backwater as this area was, they might have been issued surplus guns, but
>perhaps I'm mistaken.
>
>2. Are there any companies making repro firearms of the ones Spaniards used
>at that time in that place? I know of a couple being used, like Brown Bess
>and Charliville (sp), but I am not sure the Spanish were buying from
>Britain or France, unless they were traded as contraband.
>
>TIA
>
>HBC
>
>****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford Box 43191
>Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University
>mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
>806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136
> Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>****** Living History . . . Because It's There ******
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:25:57 -0500
From: kestrel@ticon.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
>Hey chickenhawk,
>Obviously you have an inability to differentiate between a lake,
>river and a stream.
I KNOW perfectly well the Difference between a lake,stream and river.
i ALSO KNOW THE SAME COMMON DENOMINATOR OF ALL 3,at some time of each and
every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it
is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so
much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they
couldn't use them on lakes and had to make 200,300 mile or longer trips over
land. Your entire arguement is based on a desire to deny the use of
navagable water OF ANY KIND.
I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk
at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back.
READ THE JOURNALS OF THE TRADERS THAT TRAVELED THIS COUNTRY,WATER TRAVEL WAS
THE PREFERRED METHOD,if you can document primary sources of period traders
going overland instead of by water,post it.
Jeff Powers
A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states!
Give me a woman who truly loves beer,and I will conquer the world!
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jul 1999 07:23:27 -0700
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
Boys, with water ways in the lower 48 in our time, (now) most of them are poor for making any distance on without having to portage every once and awhile.
Have followed the L&C foot steps for a long period of time. Have done everything but the Columbia River in crossing this land, one 28 day trip from Ft. Morgan CO to Ft. deChartre IL (1260 miles on the river) showed us just how many portages are now needed. On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages of a few 100 yards to a mile or so depending on the irrigation project encountered, a problem not experienced until this century, what will the next one hold !
You mentioning "navagable", hell we have seen the Platte and the Missouri at this point in early and late summer, anymore passable water is not a given. Have some great pictures of dragging a 20 foot canoe with a 600 lb. payload in a few inches of water on both rivers. We have walked and pulled canoes for miles in trying to get to St. Louis with prime plews.
> every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it
> is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so
> much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they
The condition of modern man does very poorly at carrying large loads any distance, our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers, most folks today couldn't pickup their own body weight - no less 200-300 lb. loads as we read about.
> I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk
> at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back.
I can completely understand what both of you are saying and really don't know how to have you two settle your points of view, other than maybe just moving on to another subject.
Take care
YF&B
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory
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To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
>Boys, with water ways in the lower 48 in our time, (now) most of them are
poor for making any distance on without having to portage every once and
awhile.
>
>Have followed the L&C foot steps for a long period of time. Have done
everything but the Columbia River in crossing this land, one 28 day trip
from Ft. Morgan CO to Ft. deChartre IL (1260 miles on the river) showed us
just how many portages are now needed. On the Platte alone one can figure at
least one to two portages of a few 100 yards to a mile or so depending on
the irrigation project encountered, a problem not experienced until this
century, what will the next one hold !
>
>You mentioning "navagable", hell we have seen the Platte and the Missouri
at this point in early and late summer, anymore passable water is not a
given. Have some great pictures of dragging a 20 foot canoe with a 600 lb.
payload in a few inches of water on both rivers. We have walked and pulled
canoes for miles in trying to get to St. Louis with prime plews.
>
>> every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable
it
>> is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so
>> much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if
they
>
>The condition of modern man does very poorly at carrying large loads any
distance, our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of
such tasks as our forefathers, most folks today couldn't pickup their own
body weight - no less 200-300 lb. loads as we read about.
>
>> I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can
walk
>> at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back.
>
>I can completely understand what both of you are saying and really don't
know how to have you two settle your points of view, other than maybe just
moving on to another subject.
>
>Take care
>YF&B
>Buck Conner
>AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory
>
>
>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jul 1999 08:45:14 -0700
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: "navagable" water ways
Left out something:
On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages "PER DAY".
sorry for missing that.
Buck
> On Wed, 21 July 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Boys, with water ways in the lower 48 in our time, (now) most of them are poor for making any distance on without having to portage every once and awhile.
>
> Have followed the L&C foot steps for a long period of time. Have done everything but the Columbia River in crossing this land, one 28 day trip from Ft. Morgan CO to Ft. deChartre IL (1260 miles on the river) showed us just how many portages are now needed. On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages of a few 100 yards to a mile or so depending on the irrigation project encountered, a problem not experienced until this century, what will the next one hold !
>
> You mentioning "navagable", hell we have seen the Platte and the Missouri at this point in early and late summer, anymore passable water is not a given. Have some great pictures of dragging a 20 foot canoe with a 600 lb. payload in a few inches of water on both rivers. We have walked and pulled canoes for miles in trying to get to St. Louis with prime plews.
>
> > every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it
> > is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so
> > much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they
>
> The condition of modern man does very poorly at carrying large loads any distance, our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers, most folks today couldn't pickup their own body weight - no less 200-300 lb. loads as we read about.
>
> > I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk
> > at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back.
>
> I can completely understand what both of you are saying and really don't know how to have you two settle your points of view, other than maybe just moving on to another subject.
>
> Take care
> YF&B
> Buck Conner
> AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:56:17 EDT
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies
> Could you give the complete info on this book so I can find a copy? It
> sounds like it could be quite interesting.
Angela,
Good correlations....thanks. Often what is unwritten in a journal leaves us
to wonder, but it may have just been omitted.
For instance, the guns...it was specifically mentioned that the voyageurs
carried no firearms and the chief trader carried a Manton shotgun, but I
think there were others traveling with the group who may have had guns.
Perhaps, guides or interpreters who were part of the company but not
specifically mentioned.
I'm going from memory....I should have taken notes until I can purchase a
copy for myself, but he talked of the coming into the trading posts. They
stopped a ways away, cleaned up, and put on their finest clothes. A specific
description of the voyageur's finest was included. They also hung flags and
various trade goods and clothes from the sail masts. Then they arrived at
the post with much flair and excitement, volleys from shore, etc. They left
the same way, and I think he said that the voyageurs then stripped down to
their working clothes. I got the impression they wore a shirt and some baggy,
loose knee trousers rather than breechclouts.
If you go to http://bibliofind.com and enter gurdon saltonstall hubbard into
the key word search, you will come up with both his autobiography and the
book called "SwiftWalker."
Swiftwalker is an expanded version of his autobiography supplemented with
additional information from his personal papers and other local history
sources. The autobiography is just a narrative of his time as a clerk and
trader in Chicago. Both books are out of print.
Prices ranged from $7.50 and up. Both are good additions to one's library.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:26:48 EDT
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006
With all you getting upset over this bill, just know this is just one of many
that have come this way. The one on a national front that is fighting these
is the National Trappers Assn. If this really upsets you and you really
enjoy reliving the era that help discover this country, then I simply ask,
Are you a member of the National Trappers Assn. and if not Why? I'm a life
member myself, I don't walk both sides. You either help save our heritage or
you help it to die. There's no in-between.
TrapRJoe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:58:47 EDT
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE Dave Kanger post on Old Northwest Portage from Chicago
Mike Rock writes:
> If you and Angela want to arm wrestle for first borrow rights, let me know.
It
> has a lot on the thread, and is well researched and annotated. I
> usually let books out for a month, then start hunting. You two, let me
> know if you want to read this one.
Mike,
A very kind offer which I may take you up on this winter. Angela can have
first dibs if she wants to read it now. I have some guns I need to get
finished between now and Fall, and I work on them most evenings. I read the
Hubbard books cause Deb got them on interlibrary loan and they were a quick
read.
Speaking of books.....I just added a few more for sale to my website, mostly
dealing with the Plains and Overland eras. http://oldfoxtraders.com Then
products/misc/books.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:47:31 EDT
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous
Just got back from the Kit Carson musuem in Taos, N.M. I have always heard
there were no women at rendezvous, but they had a list of Kit's travels even
showing where he had left his child. The list as writen would have you
believe that his first and second wife traveled with him on his trap lines
and to rendezvous.
How about it?
TrapRJoe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:00:51 EDT
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous
In a message dated 7/21/1999 12:53:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
TrapRJoe@aol.com writes:
> The list as writen would have you
> believe that his first and second wife traveled with him on his trap lines
> and to rendezvous.
would that be the same as taking a sandwich to a banquet? <GGG> Barn.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:01:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006
Don't trap and not a member of the NTA, but I did write my senators and
asked them not only to vote against it but to come and attend the next
rendezvous down here in Ga. in Oct. and relive a part of the Fur Trade era.
The rep. wrote me a very nice letter back and thanked me. The dem. did nothing.
At 02:26 PM 7/21/99 EDT, you wrote:
>With all you getting upset over this bill, just know this is just one of many
>that have come this way. The one on a national front that is fighting these
>is the National Trappers Assn. If this really upsets you and you really
>enjoy reliving the era that help discover this country, then I simply ask,
>Are you a member of the National Trappers Assn. and if not Why? I'm a life
>member myself, I don't walk both sides. You either help save our heritage or
>you help it to die. There's no in-between.
>
>
> TrapRJoe
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:49:38 -0500
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous
Carson married Josepha Jaramillo in February 1843, which was after the last
rendezvous.
Of course there were plenty native American women at some of the rendezvous.
In his autobiography, Carson doesn't say anything about his two native
American wives and his children from them. Back then, having a native wife
was not socially acceptable to some. Indeed, when I first visited the
Carson museum about 12 years ago, there was no mention of these other wives.
When I asked a matronly museum volunteer about that, she coyly implied that
they were'nt really wives.
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner
- -----Original Message-----
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com <TrapRJoe@aol.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 2:52 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous
>Just got back from the Kit Carson musuem in Taos, N.M. I have always heard
>there were no women at rendezvous, but they had a list of Kit's travels
even
>showing where he had left his child. The list as writen would have you
>believe that his first and second wife traveled with him on his trap lines
