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hist_text-digest         Saturday, May 1 1999         Volume 01 : Number 291




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:33:49 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Using Documentation and Sound Thread Resources

A new treasure trove of primary documents online:

http://www.universitylake.org/primarysources.html

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 1999 14:27:24 -0700
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Henry Route Article

Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
P.O.Box 28168
13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16
Lakewood, CO  80228

Thanks Todd.

Buck

On Tue, 27 April 1999, [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Those of you who have obtained a cpoy of the henry Route article from me,
> please send me your mailing address again, there's another short related
> article I forgot to send.
>
>
> Todd Glover


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 99 18:50:29 -0600
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Pants

Buck and Turtle.  I wrote that I had to disagree with you guys on the
pants.  I didn't know you were talking about the Amish, but here is what I
was thinking in reference to the fur trade.
For years I have heard that drop front pants were the only authentic ones
from the 1700's clear thru the civil war and I have to disagree with
that.
I don't think you can give a blanket endorsement like that nor that
narrow fall for the earlier times and broadfall for later.
I called John Luzader and asked him.  He is one of the most knowlegable
men I know concerning the fur trade and especially the clothing and
accoutrements for the 1800's.  His answer is about the same as mine-
There is NO DEFINITE STLYE being used at one time.  He further states
that he just saw an original pair of narrow fall worn in Nebraska in 1873,
broadfall knee britches worn at Ft. Vancouver in 1890 and a pair of french
fly trousers documented in New Mexico in 1821.
So my contention is that probably drop front pants during the fur trade
were the most COMMON but I doubt that narrow fall were replaced by broad
falls in the latter years and I really doubt that they were the predominate
fashion during the Civil War.  But, if you guys have some documentation
that definately proves me wrong I would really be interested in seeing it.
Anyway, that is what I waw thinking and talk to you later.  Don Keas

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:15:18 -0500
From: "James Sullivan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Using Documentation and Sound Thread Resources

>A new treasure trove of primary documents online:
>
>http://www.universitylake.org/primarysources.html



Aye, and what a treasure! If you've not at least glanced through this list
and scanned a few of the entries, you are surely missing a grand
opportunity. Check it out!! And thank you for the link.
James

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 05:11:56 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:14:54 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE92D0.C383CC00
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Want to hear something truly sad?  A friend in Georgia ,who is an =
elementary school librarian, tells me that special security precautions =
are being taken today, including policemen at the school, because today =
is the anniversary of the suicide of Adolph Hitler.  At an ELEMENTARY =
SCHOOL!!   How is it that schools are becomming as tense as prisons?  =
When I was in school about the only way you could get hurt there was =
tripping down some stairs, maybe getting into a fistfight...and, oh =
yeah, Mr. Jerome Cribbs' paddle from hell.  And all I had to worry about =
besides that was homework, girls and Russian hydrogen bombs.
What a world we live in.
Lanney Ratcliff

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Want to hear something truly sad?  A friend in Georgia ,who is =
an=20
elementary school librarian, tells me that special security precautions =
are=20
being taken today, including policemen at the school, because today is =
the=20
anniversary of the suicide of Adolph Hitler.  At an ELEMENTARY =
SCHOOL!!=20
  How is it that schools are becomming as tense as prisons?  =
When I=20
was in school about the only way you could get hurt there was tripping =
down some=20
stairs, maybe getting into a fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr. Jerome =
Cribbs' paddle=20
from hell.  And all I had to worry about besides that was homework, =
girls=20
and Russian hydrogen bombs.</DIV>
<DIV>What a world we live in.</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE92D0.C383CC00--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:36:51 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:14:54 -0500

- --------------933AF14D3BF706EA8B3B8896
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lanney,

When you were in school, God was too!  They hadn't kicked Him out yet
because He wasn't "politically correct"!
When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of allegiance, prayer
and the 10 commandments.  A day didn't go by that someone wasn't
lecturing me about morality. (mostly because I was a little hellion)
And look at me now!  A big strappin' mountain man!  Wagh!
All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best where it says:

"If my people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and
pray, I will hear from heaven and heal their land."

Our only hope has always been and will always be only in Him!

Medicine Bear  <(((><

Ratcliff wrote:

> Want to hear something truly sad?  A friend in Georgia ,who is an
> elementary school librarian, tells me that special security
> precautions are being taken today, including policemen at the school,
> because today is the anniversary of the suicide of Adolph Hitler.  At
> an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!!   How is it that schools are becomming as tense
> as prisons?  When I was in school about the only way you could get
> hurt there was tripping down some stairs, maybe getting into a
> fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr. Jerome Cribbs' paddle from hell.  And
> all I had to worry about besides that was homework, girls and Russian
> hydrogen bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney Ratcliff

- --------------933AF14D3BF706EA8B3B8896
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Lanney,
<p>When you were in school, God was too!  They hadn't kicked Him out
yet because He wasn't "politically correct"!
<br>When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of allegiance, prayer
and the 10 commandments.  A day didn't go by that someone wasn't lecturing
me about morality. (mostly because I was a little hellion)  And look
at me now!  A big strappin' mountain man!  Wagh!
<br>All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best where it says:
<p>"If my people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and
pray, I will hear from heaven and heal their land."
<p>Our only hope has always been and will always be only in Him!
<p>Medicine Bear  <(((><
<p>Ratcliff wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
Want to hear something truly sad?
A friend in Georgia ,who is an elementary school librarian, tells me that
special security precautions are being taken today, including policemen
at the school, because today is the anniversary of the suicide of Adolph
Hitler.  At an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!!   How is it that schools
are becomming as tense as prisons?  When I was in school about the
only way you could get hurt there was tripping down some stairs, maybe
getting into a fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr. Jerome Cribbs' paddle from
hell.  And all I had to worry about besides that was homework, girls
and Russian hydrogen bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney Ratcliff</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

- --------------933AF14D3BF706EA8B3B8896--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:27:47 +0000
From: The Sweeneys <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:14:54 -0500

- --------------9BF31C3E2D9A7FE06326BBF4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well heres my  2 cents... God in schools is great if
all the kids are on the the same page, but not
everybody believes in the same way . For instance I
call God, Great Spirit and believe the trees ,
earth, and animals our my relatives....So what
religion would schools teach is the question......
and I aint no liberal hippy either.

Respectfully,
                  Mick
                  Sierra Foothills

Frank wrote:

>  Lanney,
>
> When you were in school, God was too!  They hadn't
> kicked Him out yet because He wasn't "politically
> correct"!
> When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of
> allegiance, prayer and the 10 commandments.  A day
> didn't go by that someone wasn't lecturing me
> about morality. (mostly because I was a little
> hellion)  And look at me now!  A big strappin'
> mountain man!  Wagh!
> All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best
> where it says:
>
> "If my people, who are called by My name, will
> humble themselves and pray, I will hear from
> heaven and heal their land."
>
> Our only hope has always been and will always be
> only in Him!
>
> Medicine Bear  <(((><
>
> Ratcliff wrote:
>
>> Want to hear something truly sad?  A friend in
>> Georgia ,who is an elementary school librarian,
>> tells me that special security precautions are
>> being taken today, including policemen at the
>> school, because today is the anniversary of the
>> suicide of Adolph Hitler.  At an ELEMENTARY
>> SCHOOL!!   How is it that schools are becomming
>> as tense as prisons?  When I was in school about
>> the only way you could get hurt there was
>> tripping down some stairs, maybe getting into a
>> fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr. Jerome Cribbs'
>> paddle from hell.  And all I had to worry about
>> besides that was homework, girls and Russian
>> hydrogen bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney
>> Ratcliff
>


- --------------9BF31C3E2D9A7FE06326BBF4
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
Well heres my  2 cents... God in schools is great if all the kids
are on the the same page, but not everybody believes in the same way .
For instance I call God, Great Spirit and believe the trees , earth, and
animals our my relatives....So what religion would schools teach is the
question...... and I aint no liberal hippy either.

<P>Respectfully,
<BR>
Mick
<BR>
Sierra Foothills

<P>Frank wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> Lanney,

<P>When you were in school, God was too!  They hadn't kicked Him out
yet because He wasn't "politically correct"!
<BR>When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of allegiance, prayer
and the 10 commandments.  A day didn't go by that someone wasn't lecturing
me about morality. (mostly because I was a little hellion)  And look
at me now!  A big strappin' mountain man!  Wagh!
<BR>All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best where it says:

<P>"If my people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and
pray, I will hear from heaven and heal their land."

<P>Our only hope has always been and will always be only in Him!

<P>Medicine Bear  <(((><

<P>Ratcliff wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><STYLE></STYLE>
Want to hear something truly sad?
A friend in Georgia ,who is an elementary school librarian, tells me that
special security precautions are being taken today, including policemen
at the school, because today is the anniversary of the suicide of Adolph
Hitler.  At an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!!   How is it that schools
are becomming as tense as prisons?  When I was in school about the
only way you could get hurt there was tripping down some stairs, maybe
getting into a fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr. Jerome Cribbs' paddle from
hell.  And all I had to worry about besides that was homework, girls
and Russian hydrogen bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney Ratcliff</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>

- --------------9BF31C3E2D9A7FE06326BBF4--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:54:40 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:14:54 -0500

- --------------2C00D03560DCBE850BA6A2F2
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Mick,

I won't go in to specific beliefs here, we've drifted enough but even
the religions I definitely don't agree with all teach a basic respect
for man and accountability!  But just for the record and to open the
biggest can of worms of all...our country was founded as a Christian
bible believing country!  That IS historical fact!  The schools don't
want to teach that either.  If we were to return to the great principals
that began this country we would begin to undo the damage we've done.  I
didn't mean to imply schools should teach religion, but there's nothing
wrong with teaching  respect for one another.  Accountability for your
actions and reward for good works.  Doing unto others as you would have
them do unto you.  Caring for one another and doing without because you
esteem others as more important than yourself.  You don't have to put an
name on that but if you must, it's called Christianity!  But that's the
problem, when you teach those principals it's obvious that they are
Christian teachings.  They were good enough for the men and women who
built this great country and opened the westward expansion, it'll do for
me too!  History is proving we were better with those beliefs than
without them.  I'll stand with the evidence.
Thanks for your two cents, I respect your right to choose your own
beliefs.

I apologize to the list for this departure, I'll endeavor to refrain in
the future.

Frank  (MB)  <(((><

The Sweeneys wrote:

> Well heres my  2 cents... God in schools is great if all the kids are
> on the the same page, but not everybody believes in the same way . For
> instance I call God, Great Spirit and believe the trees , earth, and
> animals our my relatives....So what religion would schools teach is
> the question...... and I aint no liberal hippy either.
>
> Respectfully,
>                   Mick
>                   Sierra Foothills
>
> Frank wrote:
>
>>  Lanney,
>>
>> When you were in school, God was too!  They hadn't kicked Him out
>> yet because He wasn't "politically correct"!
>> When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of allegiance,
>> prayer and the 10 commandments.  A day didn't go by that someone
>> wasn't lecturing me about morality. (mostly because I was a little
>> hellion)  And look at me now!  A big strappin' mountain man!  Wagh!
>> All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best where it says:
>>
>> "If my people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and
>> pray, I will hear from heaven and heal their land."
>>
>> Our only hope has always been and will always be only in Him!
>>
>> Medicine Bear  <(((><
>>
>> Ratcliff wrote:
>>
>> > Want to hear something truly sad?  A friend in Georgia ,who is an
>> > elementary school librarian, tells me that special security
>> > precautions are being taken today, including policemen at the
>> > school, because today is the anniversary of the suicide of Adolph
>> > Hitler.  At an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!!   How is it that schools are
>> > becomming as tense as prisons?  When I was in school about the only
>> > way you could get hurt there was tripping down some stairs, maybe
>> > getting into a fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr. Jerome Cribbs' paddle
>> > from hell.  And all I had to worry about besides that was homework,
>> > girls and Russian hydrogen bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney
>> > Ratcliff
>>

- --------------2C00D03560DCBE850BA6A2F2
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Mick,
<p>I won't go in to specific beliefs here, we've drifted enough but even
the religions I definitely don't agree with all teach a basic respect for
man and accountability!  But just for the record and to open the biggest
can of worms of all...our country was founded as a Christian bible believing
country!  That IS historical fact!  The schools don't want to
teach that either.  If we were to return to the great principals that
began this country we would begin to undo the damage we've done.
I didn't mean to imply schools should teach religion, but there's nothing
wrong with teaching  respect for one another.  Accountability
for your actions and reward for good works.  Doing unto others as
you would have them do unto you.  Caring for one another and doing
without because you esteem others as more important than yourself.
You don't have to put an name on that but if you must, it's called Christianity!
But that's the problem, when you teach those principals it's obvious that
they are Christian teachings.  They were good enough for the men and
women who built this great country and opened the westward expansion, it'll
do for me too!  History is proving we were better with those beliefs
than without them.  I'll stand with the evidence.
<br>Thanks for your two cents, I respect your right to choose your own
beliefs.
<p>I apologize to the list for this departure, I'll endeavor to refrain
in the future.
<p>Frank  (MB)  <(((><
<p>The Sweeneys wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Well heres my  2 cents... God in schools is
great if all the kids are on the the same page, but not everybody believes
in the same way . For instance I call God, Great Spirit and believe the
trees , earth, and animals our my relatives....So what religion would schools
teach is the question...... and I aint no liberal hippy either.
<p>Respectfully,
<br>
Mick
<br>
Sierra Foothills
<p>Frank wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> Lanney,
<p>When you were in school, God was too!  They hadn't kicked Him out
yet because He wasn't "politically correct"!
<br>When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of allegiance, prayer
and the 10 commandments.  A day didn't go by that someone wasn't lecturing
me about morality. (mostly because I was a little hellion)  And look
at me now!  A big strappin' mountain man!  Wagh!
<br>All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best where it says:
<p>"If my people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and
pray, I will hear from heaven and heal their land."
<p>Our only hope has always been and will always be only in Him!
<p>Medicine Bear  <(((><
<p>Ratcliff wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
Want to hear something truly sad?
A friend in Georgia ,who is an elementary school librarian, tells me that
special security precautions are being taken today, including policemen
at the school, because today is the anniversary of the suicide of Adolph
Hitler.  At an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!!   How is it that schools
are becomming as tense as prisons?  When I was in school about the
only way you could get hurt there was tripping down some stairs, maybe
getting into a fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr. Jerome Cribbs' paddle from
hell.  And all I had to worry about besides that was homework, girls
and Russian hydrogen bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney Ratcliff</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

- --------------2C00D03560DCBE850BA6A2F2--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:12:26 -0600
From: David Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC

Sirs,

As I child I was told that there is a proper forum in which to discuss
both politics and religion. This is not the appropriate place for either
of those discussions. I would suggest that if you would like to discuss
either subject to do so in private (via email directed at individuals)
and not on this list which Mr. Rudy has graciosly set up to discuss the
FUR TRADE. If you would feel it is appropriate to discuss religious
topics in this forum please have the common courtesy to indicate OFF
TOPIC in the subject matter so that the rest of the list may disregard
your personal discussions.

YMHOS,
David Mullen



Frank wrote:
>
> Mick,
>
> I won't go in to specific beliefs here, we've drifted enough but even
> the religions I definitely don't agree with all teach a basic respect
> for man and accountability!á But just for the record and to open the
> biggest can of worms of all...our country was founded as a Christian
> bible believing country!á That IS historical fact!á The schools don't
> want to teach that either.á If we were to return to the great
> principals that began this country we would begin to undo the damage
> we've done.á I didn't mean to imply schools should teach religion, but
> there's nothing wrong with teachingá respect for one another.á
> Accountability for your actions and reward for good works.á Doing unto
> others as you would have them do unto you.á Caring for one another and
> doing without because you esteem others as more important than
> yourself.á You don't have to put an name on that but if you must, it's
> called Christianity!á But that's the problem, when you teach those
> principals it's obvious that they are Christian teachings.á They were
> good enough for the men and women who built this great country and
> opened the westward expansion, it'll do for me too!á History is
> proving we were better with those beliefs than without them.á I'll
> stand with the evidence.
> Thanks for your two cents, I respect your right to choose your own
> beliefs.
>
> I apologize to the list for this departure, I'll endeavor to refrain
> in the future.
>
> Franká (MB)á <(((><
>
> The Sweeneys wrote:
>
>      Well heres myá 2 cents... God in schools is great if all the
>      kids are on the the same page, but not everybody believes in
>      the same way . For instance I call God, Great Spirit and
>      believe the trees , earth, and animals our my
>      relatives....So what religion would schools teach is the
>      question...... and I aint no liberal hippy either.
>
>      Respectfully,
>      ááááááááááááááááá Mick
>      ááááááááááááááááá Sierra Foothills
>
>      Frank wrote:
>
>           áLanney,
>
>           When you were in school, God was too!á They hadn't
>           kicked Him out yet because He wasn't "politically
>           correct"!
>           When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of
>           allegiance, prayer and the 10 commandments.á A day
>           didn't go by that someone wasn't lecturing me
>           about morality. (mostly because I was a little
>           hellion)á And look at me now!á A big strappin'
>           mountain man!á Wagh!
>           All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best
>           where it says:
>
>           "If my people, who are called by My name, will
>           humble themselves and pray, I will hear from
>           heaven and heal their land."
>
>           Our only hope has always been and will always be
>           only in Him!
>
>           Medicine Beará <(((><
>
>           Ratcliff wrote:
>
>                Want to hear something truly sad?á A
>                friend in Georgia ,who is an elementary
>                school librarian, tells me that special
>                security precautions are being taken
>                today, including policemen at the
>                school, because today is the anniversary
>                of the suicide of Adolph Hitler.á At an
>                ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!!áá How is it that
>                schools are becomming as tense as
>                prisons?á When I was in school about the
>                only way you could get hurt there was
>                tripping down some stairs, maybe getting
>                into a fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr.
>                Jerome Cribbs' paddle from hell.á And
>                all I had to worry about besides that
>                was homework, girls and Russian hydrogen
>                bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney
>                Ratcliff

- --
David & Evelyn Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
[phone]
email: [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:21:39 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC

And I quote from my last post: "I apologize to the list for this departure,
I'll endeavor to refrain in the future."

Thanks for your added chastisement!

MB

David Mullen wrote:

> Sirs,
>
> As I child I was told that there is a proper forum in which to discuss
> both politics and religion. This is not the appropriate place for either
> of those discussions. I would suggest that if you would like to discuss
> either subject to do so in private (via email directed at individuals)
> and not on this list which Mr. Rudy has graciosly set up to discuss the
> FUR TRADE. If you would feel it is appropriate to discuss religious
> topics in this forum please have the common courtesy to indicate OFF
> TOPIC in the subject matter so that the rest of the list may disregard
> your personal discussions.
>
> YMHOS,
> David Mullen
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:44:40 +0000
From: Laura Rugel Glise <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC

I'll tie the OFF TOPIC into the fur trade, Sir.

Osborne Russell, Journal of a Trapper, states, "A man should not depart
from the way he has been brought up."

It's a direct quote from the Bible, of course, but it was a belief among
the mountaineers that opened this country, and it is a belief I share.
I am Lanney Ratcliff's friend, a media specialist, in Georgia. In my
daughter's high school today, two-thirds of the children were absent.
In a high school of 1,600 children, only 600 were present.

Our country is being held hostage by its lack of values.  As Mr. Jim
Bridger would say, there is a "squall" in this country.

I believe we live in a field of Time.  I would certainly hate to think
of the mountaineers attending their annual summer gathering, at those
magical terrains where some of us have become pilgrims, hearing our
"news from the States."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:07:19 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC

David Mullen contends that this is not the proper place to discuss =
politics or religion and he might be right, but I don't think so...at =
least in the context of what triggered the discussions.  Simply =
preaching your own religion or personal politics for their own sake =
would be inappropriate to this list, but I can understand why some folks =
chose to comment on what is going on in the world in that context.  It =
is certainly as appropriate as endless discussions on cleaning gourds, =
what food safe oil is best to finish a wooden bowl or the pros and cons =
of ladies passing gas.
Lanney Ratcliff
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: David Mullen <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 5:12 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC


> Sirs,
>=20
> As I child I was told that there is a proper forum in which to discuss
> both politics and religion. This is not the appropriate place for =
either
> of those discussions. I would suggest that if you would like to =
discuss
> either subject to do so in private (via email directed at individuals)
> and not on this list which Mr. Rudy has graciosly set up to discuss =
the
> FUR TRADE. If you would feel it is appropriate to discuss religious
> topics in this forum please have the common courtesy to indicate OFF
> TOPIC in the subject matter so that the rest of the list may disregard
> your personal discussions.
>=20
> YMHOS,
> David Mullen=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Frank wrote:
> >=20
> > Mick,
> >=20
> > I won't go in to specific beliefs here, we've drifted enough but =
even
> > the religions I definitely don't agree with all teach a basic =
respect
> > for man and accountability! But just for the record and to open the
> > biggest can of worms of all...our country was founded as a Christian
> > bible believing country! That IS historical fact! The schools don't
> > want to teach that either. If we were to return to the great
> > principals that began this country we would begin to undo the damage
> > we've done. I didn't mean to imply schools should teach religion, =
but
> > there's nothing wrong with teaching respect for one another.=20
> > Accountability for your actions and reward for good works. Doing =
unto
> > others as you would have them do unto you. Caring for one another =
and
> > doing without because you esteem others as more important than
> > yourself. You don't have to put an name on that but if you must, =
it's
> > called Christianity! But that's the problem, when you teach those
> > principals it's obvious that they are Christian teachings. They were
> > good enough for the men and women who built this great country and
> > opened the westward expansion, it'll do for me too! History is
> > proving we were better with those beliefs than without them. I'll
> > stand with the evidence.
> > Thanks for your two cents, I respect your right to choose your own
> > beliefs.
> >=20
> > I apologize to the list for this departure, I'll endeavor to refrain
> > in the future.
> >=20
> > Frank (MB) <(((><
> >=20
> > The Sweeneys wrote:
> >=20
> >      Well heres my 2 cents... God in schools is great if all the
> >      kids are on the the same page, but not everybody believes in
> >      the same way . For instance I call God, Great Spirit and
> >      believe the trees , earth, and animals our my
> >      relatives....So what religion would schools teach is the
> >      question...... and I aint no liberal hippy either.
> >=20
> >      Respectfully,
> >      Mick
> >      Sierra Foothills
> >=20
> >      Frank wrote:
> >=20
> >           Lanney,
> >=20
> >           When you were in school, God was too! They hadn't
> >           kicked Him out yet because He wasn't "politically
> >           correct"!
> >           When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of
> >           allegiance, prayer and the 10 commandments. A day
> >           didn't go by that someone wasn't lecturing me
> >           about morality. (mostly because I was a little
> >           hellion) And look at me now! A big strappin'
> >           mountain man! Wagh!
> >           All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best
> >           where it says:
> >=20
> >           "If my people, who are called by My name, will
> >           humble themselves and pray, I will hear from
> >           heaven and heal their land."
> >=20
> >           Our only hope has always been and will always be
> >           only in Him!
> >=20
> >           Medicine Bear <(((><
> >=20
> >           Ratcliff wrote:
> >=20
> >                Want to hear something truly sad? A
> >                friend in Georgia ,who is an elementary
> >                school librarian, tells me that special
> >                security precautions are being taken
> >                today, including policemen at the
> >                school, because today is the anniversary
> >                of the suicide of Adolph Hitler. At an
> >                ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!! How is it that
> >                schools are becomming as tense as
> >                prisons? When I was in school about the
> >                only way you could get hurt there was
> >                tripping down some stairs, maybe getting
> >                into a fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr.
> >                Jerome Cribbs' paddle from hell. And
> >                all I had to worry about besides that
> >                was homework, girls and Russian hydrogen
> >                bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney
> >                Ratcliff
>=20
> --=20
> David & Evelyn Mullen
> 202 Mesa Verde
> Jemez Springs, NM 87025
> [phone]
> email: [e-mail]
>=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:06:59 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC

In a message dated 4/30/99 8:04:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

ALRIGHT LANNEY. YOU GO BOY!!!  and by the way, anybody have any thoughts
about DISCIPLINE??? or lawyers who think that individual rights are superior
to those of the group???

<< David Mullen contends that this is not the proper place to discuss
politics or religion and he might be right, but I don't think so...at least
in the context of what triggered the discussions.  Simply preaching your own
religion or personal politics for their own sake would be inappropriate to
this list, but I can understand why some folks chose to comment on what is
going on in the world in that context.  It is certainly as appropriate as
endless discussions on cleaning gourds, what food safe oil is best to finish
a wooden bowl or the pros and cons of ladies passing gas.
 Lanney Ratcliff >>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:17:47 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC

Well said, Laura Jean, well said.  Mighty few of us would make a =
detectable wart on  Osborne Russell's behind and we might do well to =
heed his words.  I fear that Russell and many others of his time would =
shed a tear for us.  I know that I do.
Lanney Ratcliff, SME
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Laura Rugel Glise <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC


> I'll tie the OFF TOPIC into the fur trade, Sir. =20
>=20
> Osborne Russell, Journal of a Trapper, states, "A man should not =
depart
> from the way he has been brought up." =20
>=20
> It's a direct quote from the Bible, of course, but it was a belief =
among
> the mountaineers that opened this country, and it is a belief I share. =

> I am Lanney Ratcliff's friend, a media specialist, in Georgia. In my
> daughter's high school today, two-thirds of the children were absent.=20
> In a high school of 1,600 children, only 600 were present.
>=20
> Our country is being held hostage by its lack of values.  As Mr. Jim
> Bridger would say, there is a "squall" in this country. =20
>=20
> I believe we live in a field of Time.  I would certainly hate to think
> of the mountaineers attending their annual summer gathering, at those
> magical terrains where some of us have become pilgrims, hearing our
> "news from the States."
>=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:56:07 -0600
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC

I agree with Mr. Mullen.  Please let's keep the discussion focused around
the historical aspects of the Rocky Mt. fur trade, ca. first half 19th
century.  There are other mailing lists (and very active ones at that) that
specialize in jokes, religion, politics, gun control, animal rights, modern
gun technology, club politics,  etc, etc.  If we try to cover all these
topics in one discussion group, it could get very busy, indeed, at least
until people start dropping out.  We are a very diverse group, united only
by a common interest in the history of the mountain men.  I prefer to avoid
hard-and-fast rules, but a periodic reminder of our main focus is appropriate.

YrMstHblObtSvt,

Dean Rudy
list administrator

At 04:12 PM 4/30/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Sirs,
>
>As I child I was told that there is a proper forum in which to discuss
>both politics and religion. This is not the appropriate place for either
>of those discussions. I would suggest that if you would like to discuss
>either subject to do so in private (via email directed at individuals)
>and not on this list which Mr. Rudy has graciosly set up to discuss the
>FUR TRADE. If you would feel it is appropriate to discuss religious
>topics in this forum please have the common courtesy to indicate OFF
>TOPIC in the subject matter so that the rest of the list may disregard
>your personal discussions.
>
>YMHOS,
>David Mullen
>
>
>
>Frank wrote:
>>
>> Mick,
>>
>> I won't go in to specific beliefs here, we've drifted enough but even
>> the religions I definitely don't agree with all teach a basic respect
>> for man and accountability!  But just for the record and to open the
>> biggest can of worms of all...our country was founded as a Christian
>> bible believing country!  That IS historical fact!  The schools don't
>> want to teach that either.  If we were to return to the great
>> principals that began this country we would begin to undo the damage
>> we've done.  I didn't mean to imply schools should teach religion, but
>> there's nothing wrong with teaching  respect for one another.
>> Accountability for your actions and reward for good works.  Doing unto
>> others as you would have them do unto you.  Caring for one another and
>> doing without because you esteem others as more important than
>> yourself.  You don't have to put an name on that but if you must, it's
>> called Christianity!  But that's the problem, when you teach those
>> principals it's obvious that they are Christian teachings.  They were
>> good enough for the men and women who built this great country and
>> opened the westward expansion, it'll do for me too!  History is
>> proving we were better with those beliefs than without them.  I'll
>> stand with the evidence.
>> Thanks for your two cents, I respect your right to choose your own
>> beliefs.
>>
>> I apologize to the list for this departure, I'll endeavor to refrain
>> in the future.
>>
>> Frank  (MB)  <(((><
>>
>> The Sweeneys wrote:
>>
>>      Well heres my  2 cents... God in schools is great if all the
>>      kids are on the the same page, but not everybody believes in
>>      the same way . For instance I call God, Great Spirit and
>>      believe the trees , earth, and animals our my
>>      relatives....So what religion would schools teach is the
>>      question...... and I aint no liberal hippy either.
>>
>>      Respectfully,
>>                        Mick
>>                        Sierra Foothills
>>
>>      Frank wrote:
>>
>>            Lanney,
>>
>>           When you were in school, God was too!  They hadn't
>>           kicked Him out yet because He wasn't "politically
>>           correct"!
>>           When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of
>>           allegiance, prayer and the 10 commandments.  A day
>>           didn't go by that someone wasn't lecturing me
>>           about morality. (mostly because I was a little

>>           hellion)  And look at me now!  A big strappin'
>>           mountain man!  Wagh!
>>           All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best
>>           where it says:
>>
>>           "If my people, who are called by My name, will
>>           humble themselves and pray, I will hear from
>>           heaven and heal their land."
>>
>>           Our only hope has always been and will always be
>>           only in Him!
>>
>>           Medicine Bear  <(((><
>>
>>           Ratcliff wrote:
>>
>>                Want to hear something truly sad?  A
>>                friend in Georgia ,who is an elementary
>>                school librarian, tells me that special
>>                security precautions are being taken
>>                today, including policemen at the
>>                school, because today is the anniversary
>>                of the suicide of Adolph Hitler.  At an
>>                ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!!   How is it that
>>                schools are becomming as tense as
>>                prisons?  When I was in school about the
>>                only way you could get hurt there was
>>                tripping down some stairs, maybe getting
>>                into a fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr.
>>                Jerome Cribbs' paddle from hell.  And
>>                all I had to worry about besides that
>>                was homework, girls and Russian hydrogen
>>                bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney
>>                Ratcliff
>
>--
>David & Evelyn Mullen
>202 Mesa Verde
>Jemez Springs, NM 87025
>[phone]
>email: [e-mail]
>

------------------------------

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