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------------------------------
Date: 24 Apr 1999 10:41:12 -0700
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
I understood what you said and agree about the fashion changes, but wasn't the original question - would the twill Amish pants fit the fur trade !
Would you agree that the early narrow drop fronts fit the early to mid fur trade, as you mentioned some didn't change. The wider drop front (like the Amish) would be more at the end of the fur trade and not much after the being of the Civil War as far as fashion went, and may have been worn if fashion wasn't a consideration or that's all you got to wear.
What do you think.
Buck
Did you get my e-mail that the woodswalk was cancelled for Sunday.
>On Sat, 24 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
> Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> Buck - You misunderstood about the military. We were talking about the fashions of the times, not military cause nobody pays any attention to the military cause they were always slow to catch up.
> Button fly front pants were popular up to about 1750 wehen the fashion changed to drop fronts. Drop fronts remained the fashion until about 1841 when they changed to button front fly pants. Some of the older gentlemen did not change to the new fashions and kept wearing what they were used to for many years afterward, but the fashion of the times changed to button front in 1840. Of course the Amish, Mennonites or Quakers didn't bother to change just because the fashions did.
>
> Beth Gilgun-Tidings of the 18th Century
> Herbert Norris - Nineteenth Century Costume and fashion
> Iris Brooke - English Costume of the Nineteenth Century
>
> Hope we aren't talking oranges and apples here, Buck.
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>
> buck.conner wrote:
> >Don,
> >
> >The next issue of T&LR will have a documented pair of drop front breeches >that are believed to have belonged to Marino Medina that were commerically made in >the 1850's to 1860's, manufactured in Calif. and were very popular according to >Charles E. Hanson, Jr. They were made of a fine leather, brass stud style buttons >sewed on - mostly machine sewed with fine hand work on the waist band. Charley >had a jacket that was a match to these breeches, Mrs. E. Gates that wrote the book >on Medina also had a pair of these breeches that had belong to a gentleman from >Loveland around the same period. She had a picture of Louie Papa wearing the pair >I have around the turn of the century in a parade in Ft. Collins CO.
> >
> >We'renot talking military Don, the reference is to the drop front pants >that the Amish and several other "sexes" or "clans" of common people have been >wearing for decades and still wear today. I know what you mean by the military fashion >as a general rule of thumb, but like Medina's and others it doesn't alway quite fit.
> >
> >Take a look at the book I referred to and that whole section on pants.
> >
> >Buck
> >
> >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
> >> >> Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> >> Buck - I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you gentlemen on >the drop front trousers. From everything I have read, drop front trousers >switched to button front flys starting about 1841. After that time, the only drop front >pants worn were by the military(always a day late & dollar short). My wife and >I do quite a bit of research on clothing, have several books on clothing, but >certainly don't know it all. This is just what we have found. Don Keas
> >> >> >> buck.conner wrote:
> >> >Hello Camp,
> >> >
> >> >Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a >short time.
> >> >
> >> >I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the >>Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA >>Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure >when >the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that >some >members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, >schools and >settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
> >> >
> >> >One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements >is >John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing >that's >your mother's maiden name !
> >> >
> >> >When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you >>would make note of it, say not".
> >> >
> >> >I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - >nothing, >next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" >by >Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino >Medina's >with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. >Another >pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still >early >styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert >says >they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
> >> >
> >> >I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in >>the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and >>later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts >of >household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I >was >still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and >later, >Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to >the 1840's >stuff sewed up in that museum..
> >> >
> >> >Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make >>this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on >these >pants.
> >> >
> >> >Buck Conner
> >> >dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> >> >__________________________
> >> >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >> >> >> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several >shops >around the country.
> >> >> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >>everyday >knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> >> >> >> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered >>movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, >but >they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that >belonged >to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late >1840's to >1860's - narrow drop front.
> >> >> >> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> >> >> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> >> >> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >>>Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >>1850s,Riverboat >period.
> >> >> >> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as >>farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We >can date >our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are >saying. If >working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> >> >> >> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >>active. >Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as >common. >Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of >the >Broad Fall style?
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >RFC822 header
> >> >-----------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >with ESMTP
> > Received: from [12.74.72.71] by mail.uswestmail.net with HTTP;
> > 24 Apr 1999 06:21:41 PDT
> > Content-Type: text/plain
> > Content-Disposition: inline
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
> > X-Mailer: Web Mail 3.0
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
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> >
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------------------------------
Date: 24 Apr 1999 17:21:40 -0700
From: <turtle@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
Boys,
I have found several mistakes with one of the author's in Don's reference sources, seems this person copies others works and sometimes looses the translation of the work, thus not being clear and misleading the reader.
I'm more to believe someone that's known for his correctness in reporting what has happened like Hanson, or the reference Buck gave to the PA clothing book that Shumway published, another known for his correctness in what he prints and usually found to be as correct as possible.
Nothing wrong with the research boys, but sometimes we have to look at the reference/author's track record.
Several of the our writer's for some of the period magazine are starting to see problems with being mislead in their research, talked to a gentlemen (won't mention his name) he told several of us that he has had to eat crow several times in the last year or two, because of poor research that someone passed on to him and he used it, thus getting hammered for putting out wrong information.
I'm glad to see that both Don and Buck use more than one resource and then make their own minds up, and aren't swayed with just one person's idea. Keep up the good research and thanks for sharing.
Turtle.
> On Sat, 24 April 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> I understood what you said and agree about the fashion changes, but wasn't the original question - would the twill Amish pants fit the fur trade !
>
> Would you agree that the early narrow drop fronts fit the early to mid fur trade, as you mentioned some didn't change. The wider drop front (like the Amish) would be more at the end of the fur trade and not much after the being of the Civil War as far as fashion went, and may have been worn if fashion wasn't a consideration or that's all you got to wear.
>
> What do you think.
>
> Buck
>
> Did you get my e-mail that the woodswalk was cancelled for Sunday.
>
> >On Sat, 24 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
> > Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> > Buck - You misunderstood about the military. We were talking about the fashions of the times, not military cause nobody pays any attention to the military cause they were always slow to catch up.
> > Button fly front pants were popular up to about 1750 wehen the fashion changed to drop fronts. Drop fronts remained the fashion until about 1841 when they changed to button front fly pants. Some of the older gentlemen did not change to the new fashions and kept wearing what they were used to for many years afterward, but the fashion of the times changed to button front in 1840. Of course the Amish, Mennonites or Quakers didn't bother to change just because the fashions did.
> >
> > Beth Gilgun-Tidings of the 18th Century
> > Herbert Norris - Nineteenth Century Costume and fashion
> > Iris Brooke - English Costume of the Nineteenth Century
> >
> > Hope we aren't talking oranges and apples here, Buck.
> > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> >
> > buck.conner wrote:
> > >Don,
> > >
> > >The next issue of T&LR will have a documented pair of drop front breeches >that are believed to have belonged to Marino Medina that were commerically made in >the 1850's to 1860's, manufactured in Calif. and were very popular according to >Charles E. Hanson, Jr. They were made of a fine leather, brass stud style buttons >sewed on - mostly machine sewed with fine hand work on the waist band. Charley >had a jacket that was a match to these breeches, Mrs. E. Gates that wrote the book >on Medina also had a pair of these breeches that had belong to a gentleman from >Loveland around the same period. She had a picture of Louie Papa wearing the pair >I have around the turn of the century in a parade in Ft. Collins CO.
> > >
> > >We'renot talking military Don, the reference is to the drop front pants >that the Amish and several other "sexes" or "clans" of common people have been >wearing for decades and still wear today. I know what you mean by the military fashion >as a general rule of thumb, but like Medina's and others it doesn't alway quite fit.
> > >
> > >Take a look at the book I referred to and that whole section on pants.
> > >
> > >Buck
> > >
> > >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
> > >> >> Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> > >> Buck - I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you gentlemen on >the drop front trousers. From everything I have read, drop front trousers >switched to button front flys starting about 1841. After that time, the only drop front >pants worn were by the military(always a day late & dollar short). My wife and >I do quite a bit of research on clothing, have several books on clothing, but >certainly don't know it all. This is just what we have found. Don Keas
> > >> >> >> buck.conner wrote:
> > >> >Hello Camp,
> > >> >
> > >> >Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a >short time.
> > >> >
> > >> >I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the >>Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA >>Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure >when >the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that >some >members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, >schools and >settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
> > >> >
> > >> >One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements >is >John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing >that's >your mother's maiden name !
> > >> >
> > >> >When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you >>would make note of it, say not".
> > >> >
> > >> >I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - >nothing, >next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" >by >Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino >Medina's >with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. >Another >pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still >early >styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert >says >they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
> > >> >
> > >> >I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in >>the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and >>later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts >of >household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I >was >still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and >later, >Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to >the 1840's >stuff sewed up in that museum..
> > >> >
> > >> >Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make >>this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on >these >pants.
> > >> >
> > >> >Buck Conner
> > >> >dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> > >> >__________________________
> > >> >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > >> >> >> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several >shops >around the country.
> > >> >> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >>everyday >knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> > >> >> >> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered >>movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, >but >they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that >belonged >to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late >1840's to >1860's - narrow drop front.
> > >> >> >> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> > >> >> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> > >> >> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >>>Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >>1850s,Riverboat >period.
> > >> >> >> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as >>farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We >can date >our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are >saying. If >working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> > >> >> >> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >>active. >Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as >common. >Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of >the >Broad Fall style?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >RFC822 header
> > >> >-----------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >with ESMTP
> > > Received: from [12.74.72.71] by mail.uswestmail.net with HTTP;
> > > 24 Apr 1999 06:21:41 PDT
> > > Content-Type: text/plain
> > > Content-Disposition: inline
> > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > > From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
> > > X-Mailer: Web Mail 3.0
> > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> > > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > > Precedence: bulk
> > > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > > X-RCPT-TO: <pdkeas@market1.com>
> > > X-UIDL: 961
> > > Status: U
> > >
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: 24 Apr 1999 17:28:58 -0700
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: in our Prayers (OFF TOPIC)
On Sat, 24 April 1999, kestrel@ticon.net wrote:
>
>
> My name is Jayson Martin from Littleton, Colorado, I would like for
> anyone
> who reads this to please write their name down. I would like to send
> prayers out
> to my friends who were in Columbine H.S. I would like everyone to please
> say a
> prayer for the safety of everyone who was involved in this terrible
> tragedy. It
> is something that has hurt me today as well as my friends, I'm grateful
> for my
> safety and their safety. Please Forward this to as many people as you
> can, let
> us all come together and pray that this tragedy ends soon.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> ***Copy this letter, add your name and forward it to as many people
> as you know. Thank you.
>
> 1. Jayson L. Martin Littleton, Colorado
> 2. Michelle R. Evans Aurora, Colorado - I also had friends in there
> 3. Mary Goddard Denver , Colorado
> 4. Mike Stratis Denver, Colorado
> 5. Bill Hankammer, Colorado Springs CO.
> 6. Becky Jo Hersh, Aurora, CO
> 7. Katie D. Co,spgs, CO
> 8. Ryan S. Monument, CO
> 9. Rey Sandoval. Denver, CO
> 10. Mike Mcpherren. West Des Moines, Iowa.
> 11. Megan Richards Des Moines Iowa
> 12. Mary Beth Zieglowsky, Iowa City, IA
> 13. Julie Crow, Tipton, IA
> 14. Mary Jo Piper, Coralville, IA
> 15. Becky Flanegan, Wellman, IA
> 16. Kay Scheetz, Coralville, IA
> 17. Peggy Timm, Tipton, IA
> 18. Tony Timm, Des Moines, IA
> 19. Clark Ullerich, Davenport, IA
> 20. Sandy Johnson, Denison, IA
> 21. Lyle Breaux, Marrero, LA
> 22. Sandi Rohrs, Wheeling, IL
> 23. Melissa Thommesen, Janesville, WI
> 24. Tiffany Powers, Janesville, WI
> 25. Jeff Powers, Janesville, WI
> 26. Lee Boyer, State College, PA
> 27. Buck Conner, Lakewood, CO
> 28.
> 29.
> 30.
> 31.
> 32.
>
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:51:31 -0500
From: kestrel@ticon.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: in our Prayers (OFF TOPIC)
Knowing Buck was closest to this of all I know on and off the net I
forwarded this only to Buck. It's pleasing to see it forwarded to the list
(and I probably should have sent this to the list). Anyway folks,Billy
Graham has gone on record (on the net,sorry I don't have his web page handy)
stating that this is not a problem that stiffer gun control laws will fix!
Thanks Buck for sending this to the list.
One other thing,does anyone have a contact for the kids(in Littleton)that
are making the blue and silver ribbons? I want to send them some money for
supplies and get a few ribbons for myself.
Thanks,Jeff Powers
I KNOW the future......GOD WINS!
On 1999-04-24 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net
>X-Mailer: Web Mail 3.0
>On Sat, 24 April 1999, kestrel@ticon.net wrote:
>> My name is Jayson Martin from Littleton, Colorado, I would like
>>for anyone
>> who reads this to please write their name down. I would like to
>>send prayers out
>> to my friends who were in Columbine H.S. I would like everyone to
>>please say a
>> prayer for the safety of everyone who was involved in this
>>terrible tragedy. It
>> is something that has hurt me today as well as my friends, I'm
>>grateful for my
>> safety and their safety. Please Forward this to as many people as
>>you can, let
>> us all come together and pray that this tragedy ends soon.
>> Thank you.
>> ***Copy this letter, add your name and forward it to as many
>>people as you know. Thank you.
>> 1. Jayson L. Martin Littleton, Colorado
>> 2. Michelle R. Evans Aurora, Colorado - I also had friends
>>in there 3. Mary Goddard Denver , Colorado
>> 4. Mike Stratis Denver, Colorado
>> 5. Bill Hankammer, Colorado Springs CO.
>> 6. Becky Jo Hersh, Aurora, CO
>> 7. Katie D. Co,spgs, CO
>> 8. Ryan S. Monument, CO
>> 9. Rey Sandoval. Denver, CO
>> 10. Mike Mcpherren. West Des Moines, Iowa.
>> 11. Megan Richards Des Moines Iowa
>> 12. Mary Beth Zieglowsky, Iowa City, IA
>> 13. Julie Crow, Tipton, IA
>> 14. Mary Jo Piper, Coralville, IA
>> 15. Becky Flanegan, Wellman, IA
>> 16. Kay Scheetz, Coralville, IA
>> 17. Peggy Timm, Tipton, IA
>> 18. Tony Timm, Des Moines, IA
>> 19. Clark Ullerich, Davenport, IA
>> 20. Sandy Johnson, Denison, IA
>> 21. Lyle Breaux, Marrero, LA
>> 22. Sandi Rohrs, Wheeling, IL
>> 23. Melissa Thommesen, Janesville, WI
>> 24. Tiffany Powers, Janesville, WI
>> 25. Jeff Powers, Janesville, WI
>> 26. Lee Boyer, State College, PA
>> 27. Buck Conner, Lakewood, CO
>> 28.
>> 29.
>> 30.
>> 31.
>> 32.
>> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.
>uswestmail.net
Proud to be a Jesus Freak :-)
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 07:58:32 -0500
From: "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE" <inspect@southwind.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: JACKIE BROWN
I have lost Jackie Browns home page. Can some one please tell me the
address.
------------------------------
Date: 25 Apr 1999 07:59:46 -0700
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
- ------- Start of forwarded message -------
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
To: hawknest4@juno.com
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Date: 25 Apr 1999 07:57:37 PDT
Hawk,
One big factor is that Mrs. Gates had a picture of Louie Papa (Medina's step-son) sitting on his white horse around the turn of the century at the grave of his step sister (Lena) on my father-in-laws property, according to the Loveland newspaper he spent many hours in the area that his step-father had hunted and visited.
Some of the old timers said the family would come up after Marino passed on and spend weekends getting away from the heat in town. This is only 6 miles into the foothills from Medina Flats, the pants were probably left by accident on one of these outtings according to Mrs. Gates, an educated guess as she put it.
Buck
> On Sun, 25 April 1999, michael pierce wrote:
>
> good data still wonder how you establish that the paints were
> madenia's---got to have a good thread to link it all to and to
> positatively establish ownership---not just a supisition---Your story is
> similar to me and dan anderson finfing a spanish gold mine lost since
