November 11 - 14, 1999 and I am the contact person.
------------------------------
Date: 23 Apr 1999 16:30:55 -0700
From: <turtle@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops around the country.
>On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
>I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to 1860's - narrow drop front.
>Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
>re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
>seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat period.
I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
>The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the Broad Fall style?
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:39:01 -0500
From: John Dearing <jdearing@mail.theriver.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:
> >john
> >good to hear from you--computer crashed and i didnt have your e-mail
> >address got it back up and lost some of my address book but yours was one
> >of the messages that i had left---wish we were shooting high power at
> >marshel---not many places here to shoot--thats for sure---glad the black
> >powder bug bit you--and glad you are a flint shooter---my brother has
> >never fired a caplock--only flint wont shoot one---told him when i got
> >him started i would build him a gun but he had to shoot flint and only
> >flint---little shit is darn good with it too and never has any problems
> >with misfires when hunting---he says it's the way you take care of it
> >before you load it and whil you are in the field---
>
> >again good to hear from you dont be a stranger and if you get in this
> >area look us up---
Hey Hawk,
Bucksnort range at Marshal is still there and hosting high power matches, not
as much fun as BP shoots, but still a place to shoot. All ya gotta do is show up
and bang away. ;-) I was shooting BP before I started high power, just put it on
hold while the NG had the bucks to subsidize my shooting career, if you want to
call it that.
I did start bp shooting with a rifle I made from a bunch of parts bought from Dixie,
and it did, kind of, look like a rifle, then graduated to a Lyman Great Plains, and
then a flint gun bought in the white from Paul DeSablon's (sp)shop on Sappington
Rd in S. St. Louis. That gun had a Sharon barrel and Robbin's lock dated 1977.
Still have that gun, and it has taken its share of game and prizes, but it has seen
better days. The fizzen needs to be resoled. I'll get to it one of these days...after I
finish some of those other unfinished projects.
Come on up to Old Mines in May, or the June shoot at Ft. DeChartre, or even
Ft. Hill in Sept and I'll give you a few lessons on how to shoot that flinter. <LOL>
Oh yeah, your brother is right. Flint guns are real reliable in all sorts of weather
IF you give 'em enough TLC.
Talk to you later.
John Dearing
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:08:25 EDT
From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Where?
Hi we live in Albuquerque,New Mexico.The family is scattered pretty much now
- - but the bulk still live around St. Louis and in Colorado. I was in Taos a
while back, and a store owner told me that a descendent of Felicitas St.
Vrain Gallegos (Ceran's daughter) had visited and was starting her own
genealogy -- gee wish he'd have gotten her address! Our connection to Ceran,
as you may recall, was through his nephew Benedict. There was much hanky
panky going on with the family money after Ceran's death, and Benedict seized
control (he was apparently given the OK by Ceran before he died, which makes
us wonder what was up with HIS children, Vincente and Felix. We do know that
Amelia, Vincentes wife remarried after he died in 1876 - she moved to
California. However she kept close touch with the St. Vrains, and often
bragged to her grandchildren how she was once Ceran's daughter in law!)
We were in contact with Paul St. Vrain about twenty years ago. He had tons
of stuff - I shall try to track him down again. Crikes, this is exciting..we
just went over the 500 mark in descendents, and many of them are big into
this stuff :) If you want to contact Bob Dodson (Benedicts descendent) he is
DFRwin@aol.com, or you can call him in the evening at 505-899-9301. Cheers!
------------------------------
Date: 23 Apr 1999 18:29:01 -0700
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
Hello Camp,
Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a short time.
I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure when the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that some members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, schools and settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements is John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing that's your mother's maiden name !
When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you would make note of it, say not".
I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - nothing, next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino Medina's with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. Another pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still early styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert says they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts of household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I was still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and later, Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to the 1840's stuff sewed up in that museum.
Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on these pants.
Buck Conner
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
__________________________
>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops around the country.
>
> >On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
>
> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to 1860's - narrow drop front.
>
> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat period.
>
> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
>
> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the Broad Fall style?
>
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: 23 Apr 1999 19:43:16 -0700
From: <turtle@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants(OFF TOPIC)
Hey, as I recall you've got some Pennsylvania Dutch or Amish in your background, I was waiting for you to stand up and be heard.
Are you near the Littleton school that we are hearing about on the news, that's terrible what has happened to those kids.
What the hell were the families doing when these kids are gathering up all the stuff for a young war, got their head in the sand or what ???
Scary thing is it could happen anywhere with some of these kids today, hell when we grew up all we had to do was wait for the draft, and you would get all the action we wanted with Vietnam no matter what our temper was.
Turtle.
>On Fri, 23 April 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> Hello Camp,
>
> Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a short time.
>
> I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure when the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that some members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, schools and settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
>
> One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements is John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing that's your mother's maiden name !
>
> When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you would make note of it, say not".
>
> I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - nothing, next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino Medina's with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. Another pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still early styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert says they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
>
> I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts of household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I was still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and later, Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to the 1840's stuff sewed up in that museum.
>
> Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on these pants.
>
> Buck Conner
> dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> __________________________
> >On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >
> > In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops around the country.
> >
> > >On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
> > >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> >
> > These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to 1860's - narrow drop front.
> >
> > >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> > >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> > >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat period.
> >
> > I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> >
> > >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the Broad Fall style?
> >
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 23:32:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: mtmen list: phrase in movie
When Bear Claw tells Johnson "watch yer top knot" hunch is that he's
tellin him to guard his scalp under his hat (which may have a cord knot
in it ???)
Lanney - The farthest west or south I've ever been was to Kansas in
August of 76 for one week - 103 every day.
------------------------------
Date: 23 Apr 99 21:39:38 -0600
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
Buck - I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you gentlemen on =
the drop front trousers. From everything I have read, drop front trousers =
switched to button front flys starting about 1841. After that time, the =
only drop front pants worn were by the military(always a day late & dollar =
short). =
My wife and I do quite a bit of research on clothing, have several books =
on clothing, but certainly don't know it all. This is just what we have =
found. Don Keas
buck.conner wrote:
>Hello Camp,
>
>Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a =
short time.
>
>I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the =
>Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called =
PA =
>Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. =
Not sure when =
>the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that =
some =
>members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, =
schools and =
>settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
>
>One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements =
is =
>John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing =
that's =
>your mother's maiden name !
>
>When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you =
>would make note of it, say not".
>
>I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - =
nothing, =
>next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania =
Clothing" by =
>Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino =
Medina's =
>with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back.=
Another =
>pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still =
early =
>styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Geh=
ert says =
>they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
>
>I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in =
>the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's =
and =
>later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large =
amounts of =
>household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, =
when I was =
>still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and =
later, =
>Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to =
the 1840's =
>stuff sewed up in that museum..
>
>Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make =
>this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research =
on these =
>pants.
>
>Buck Conner
>dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
>__________________________
>>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>> =
>> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops =
>around the country.
>> =
>> >On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
>> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday =
>knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
>> =
>> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered =
>movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop =
fronts, but =
>they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches =
that belonged =
>to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late =
1840's to =
>1860's - narrow drop front.
>> =
>> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
>> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
>> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad =
>>Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >=
1850s,Riverboat =
>period.
>> =
>> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as =
>farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east =
coast. We can date =
>our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are =
saying. If =
>working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
>> =
>> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >=
active. =
>Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as =
common. =
>Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance =
of the =
>Broad Fall style?
>> =
>
>
>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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> From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
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> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 23:24:00 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtmen list: phrase in movie
Come on down....some October. You might not like August.
Lanney
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: JON MARINETTI <JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net>
To: <hist_text@xmission.com>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 1999 10:32 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: mtmen list: phrase in movie
> When Bear Claw tells Johnson "watch yer top knot" hunch is that he's
> tellin him to guard his scalp under his hat (which may have a cord =
knot
> in it ???)
>=20
> Lanney - The farthest west or south I've ever been was to Kansas in
> August of 76 for one week - 103 every day.
>=20
>=20
------------------------------
Date: 24 Apr 1999 06:21:41 -0700
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
Don,
The next issue of T&LR will have a documented pair of drop front breeches that are believed to have belonged to Marino Medina that were commerically made in the 1850's to 1860's, manufactured in Calif. and were very popular according to Charles E. Hanson, Jr. They were made of a fine leather, brass stud style buttons sewed on - mostly machine sewed with fine hand work on the waist band. Charley had a jacket that was a match to these breeches, Mrs. E. Gates that wrote the book on Medina also had a pair of these breeches that had belong to a gentleman from Loveland around the same period. She had a picture of Louie Papa wearing the pair I have around the turn of the century in a parade in Ft. Collins CO.
We'renot talking military Don, the reference is to the drop front pants that the Amish and several other "sexes" or "clans" of common people have been wearing for decades and still wear today. I know what you mean by the military fashion as a general rule of thumb, but like Medina's and others it doesn't alway quite fit.
Take a look at the book I referred to and that whole section on pants.
Buck
>On Fri, 23 April 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>
> Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> Buck - I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you gentlemen on the drop front trousers. From everything I have read, drop front trousers switched to button front flys starting about 1841. After that time, the only drop front pants worn were by the military(always a day late & dollar short). My wife and I do quite a bit of research on clothing, have several books on clothing, but certainly don't know it all. This is just what we have found. Don Keas
>
>
> buck.conner wrote:
> >Hello Camp,
> >
> >Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a short time.
> >
> >I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the >Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA >Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure when >the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that some >members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, schools and >settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
> >
> >One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements is >John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing that's >your mother's maiden name !
> >
> >When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you >would make note of it, say not".
> >
> >I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - nothing, >next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by >Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino Medina's >with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. Another >pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still early >styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert says >they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
> >
> >I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in >the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and >later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts of >household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I was >still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and later, >Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to the 1840's >stuff sewed up in that museum..
> >
> >Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make >this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on these >pants.
> >
> >Buck Conner
> >dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> >__________________________
> >>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> >> >> In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops >around the country.
> >> >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday >knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> >> >> These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered >movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but >they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged >to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to >1860's - narrow drop front.
> >> >> >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> >> >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> >> >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >>Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat >period.
> >> >> I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as >farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date >our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If >working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> >> >> >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. >Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. >Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the >Broad Fall style?
> >> >
> >
> >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> >
> >
> >
> >RFC822 header
> >-----------------------------------
> >
> > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP
> > Received: from [12.74.73.74] by mail.uswestmail.net with HTTP;
> > 23 Apr 1999 18:29:01 PDT
> > Content-Type: text/plain
> > Content-Disposition: inline
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> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
> > X-Mailer: Web Mail 3.0
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants
> > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
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------------------------------
Date: 24 Apr 1999 06:34:27 -0700
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twill pants(OFF TOPIC)
Yes on the first question - some.
Yes, on the second question, used to live within a few blocks of that school and have seen some of the kids that lost their lives, but really didn't know them.
The jerks that did the deed live in a new development that went up after I moved, so don't know them or their families. But have seen many kids with the black trenchcoats at the mall up the street - seems to be a popular dress item around here for a period.
This hit at the worst time, we were about to get some changes for gun control in favor of lightening some of the pressure of some laws, but that went out the window after last Tuesday.
Every channel for local TV is about this and gun control, what about kid control or their mother and father control. I quess it's like hearing what "Slick Willy" did, being out of control, of course he didn't kill anyone that they can prove.
Buck
>On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Hey, as I recall you've got some Pennsylvania Dutch or Amish in your background, I was waiting for you to stand up and be heard.
> Are you near the Littleton school that we are hearing about on the news, that's terrible what has happened to those kids.
> What the hell were the families doing when these kids are gathering up all the stuff for a young war, got their head in the sand or what ???
> Scary thing is it could happen anywhere with some of these kids today, hell when we grew up all we had to do was wait for the draft, and you would get all the action we wanted with Vietnam no matter what our temper was.
> Turtle.
>
> >On Fri, 23 April 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > Hello Camp,
> >
> > Turtle, sounds like this lady hit a nerve about Amish being around a short time.
> >
> > I'm doing some research on "Folk Medicine" for the next catalog and the Amish, and Mennonites (both spin-offs of the PA Dutch or sometimes called PA Germans)keep popping up with "cures" that date back well into the 1760's. Not sure when the groups went different ways, but seems to be in the early 1800's, that some members were unhappy with some teachings and set up their own churches, schools and settlements in NY, PA, OH and points west.
> >
> > One of the authors that writes about early life in the Amish settlements is John Hostetler, well know prof from Temple Univ., is he related - knowing that's your mother's maiden name !
> >
> > When I saw the posting about the Amish drop fall pants, "I thought you would make note of it, say not".
> >
> > I looked in Lehman's (Amish) catalog for information on clothing - nothing, next figured probably the best place would be "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by Ellen J. Gehret. On page 133 he shows breeches very similar to Marino Medina's with a small drop fall front and draw string adjustable panel in the back. Another pair on page 148 of a different material and wider drop front are still early styles. Now on page 150 you see a pair like mentioned in this posting, Gehert says they are of the 19th century - doesn't say early or late.
> >
> > I would wager that they are after the Civil War, as most of the stuff in the location of these pants,(Chester County Historical Society) is 1850's and later. The reason I say that is I knew several families that gave large amounts of household goods, clothing, etc. to this association back in the 1950's, when I was still living in Chester County, PA. They had Civil War related items and later, Valley Forge under the care of Vernon Bigsby had all the pre Rev. War to the 1840's stuff sewed up in that museum.
> >
> > Like you stated these are a little late for the fur trade, sorry to make this so long, wanted to let this gentleam know we have done some research on these pants.
> >
> > Buck Conner
> > dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile
> > __________________________
> > >On Fri, 23 April 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> > >
> > > In reply to your question on the Amish work pants sold by several shops around the country.
> > >
> > > >On Wed, 21 April 1999, Laurel huber wrote:
> > > >I own a pair of Amish pants made out of denim that I use for >everyday knock-about use. They are Broad Fall and have metal rivet >buttons.
> > >
> > > These pants are suited for Civil War and later into the westered movement, to late for fur trade. In Hanson's sketch books you'll see drop fronts, but they have a narrow drop, Buck Conner has an original pair of breeches that belonged to Marino Medina that are drop front and Hanson figured they were late 1840's to 1860's - narrow drop front.
> > >
> > > >Besides the buttons and fabric, I would not use them for Fur Trade
> > > >re-enactment because the most often shown examples of trousers I have
> > > >seen of that period have been Narrow Fall. You start seeing Broad >Falls show up in George Bingham paintings from the late 1840s to the >1850s,Riverboat period.
> > >
> > > I am Amish and my relations came here in the mid 1700's to work as farmers to supply the demands of Phila. and other cities on the east coast. We can date our relations back over 300 years, so I don't understand what you are saying. If working and supplying a demand is not active then what is ! Turtle.
> > >
> > > >The mid to late 1800s is about the time the Amish started being >active. Maybe the style was available earlier but it couldn't have >been as common. Anyone else on the list have documentation on the >wide spread appearance of the Broad Fall style?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> > buck is it true you have a pair od mario madena paints---tell me about
> > them in detail---where did you get them and how are they documented---I
> > have a bunch of historical stuff also---
> >
> > let me know the scoop---
> >
> > "Hawk"
> > Michael Pierce
> > 854 Glenfield Dr.
> > Palm Harbor, florida 34684
___________________________________
You asked for it Hawk, it's a little long and according to the AMM editor it will be in the next issue of Tomahawk & Long Rifle (which is a great magazine with very interesting articles and history of the fur trade, now available for subscriptions to non-members, will get yearly price and address if anyone is interested). Had to plug the magazine, our editor is a very hard working fellow and gets on list very little.
This article was talking about breeches or short pants in the fur trade more than about drop front pants.
I read an article entitled "The Well-Dressed Explorer" by Jeff Gottfred of the NWBC located in Calgary, Canada; in the article he mentions David Thompson's leather trousers and long wool socks, along with Samuel Johnson's dictionary's remarks of trousers used in outposts and common wear on the frontier.
NOTE
I have always felt that one of the problems found in living history has been the dating of menÆs clothing, especially civilian clothing, seems to be volumes on the subject - but for womenÆs clothing. After years of research on what is correct and what is questionable, I have found that
knowing military clothing is extremely helpful in dating civilian wares. A good example, the British Army went from the fly front to the fall front knee breeches in the Clothing Warrent of 1768. Thus, military usually changes fashion late, the front fly was probably going out of
civilian style in the early 1790Æs. If portraying a fashionable gentlemen from Philadelphia, Annapolis or St. Louis, you would be wearing fall front breeches or trousers. But if you were a farmer in the same period you
would likely have fly frontÆs. Fly front breeches were
developed around 1650 and in a hundred and fifty years, change was the tightness and size of the waistband going from 4 - 6 inches in 1730 - 1750, to 2 - 2 1/2 inch range found on late 1830 - 1850 fall fronts.
This article reminded me of an item I found twenty-five years ago when living in northern Colorado, northwest of the town of Loveland in a small valley called the Buckhorn Canyon (named by Mariano Medina, the Colorado Mountainman). Medina was reported to have shot and killed several young
Utes that had stolen horses from his place of business west of Loveland and had rode them a few miles up this canyon when Medina caught up with them. This same canyon was where it was reported that his daughter was buried.
My wife at the time and her family had several hundred acres of which only half was farm-able, the rest was used for pasture and a small sandstone quarry, it was narrow in width and followed the Buckhorn Canyon ridge down into the valley. Only a few miles from the Big Thompson River that
Mariano Medina had his toll bridge on for years, charging from as little as $ .25 a wagon on a busy day to as high as $ 10.00 a wagon on a slow day to cross this river.According to the local paper, these charges helped newcomers make up their mind about settling on one side or the other of
the Thompson, with small settlements springing up in the area like Berthoud, Campeon and Medina Flat's.
My father-in-law told me as a young boy growing up in the valley he could remember when the Utes would come to town and everyone would gather their tools and vegetables and store them inside until they passed, he said they were looked at as gypsies and known to steal loose items laying around and sell those items in town for booze. This seemed to be the only problem as he recalls was ever present with these people that lived at the northern end of the canyon.
Around 1935 the local college - CSU, in Fort Collins was called to look at a grave site that was uncovered in the sandstone quarry on the family property, it was decided to be possibly Native American, a women buried sitting up. The college would return in a week to remove the body and look for additional clues at the site. In the remaining time the local farmers feared that removing these remains of this person could bring a curse on their valley and decided to cover the grave and not give permission to anyone to touch the site. My father-in-law had the pre-mix concrete company pour an 8" slab on top of the grave and then pushed 3 to 4 feet of dirt and riff-raff (broken rock from the quarry) on the slab. When the college showed up a few days later they wanted the court to issue an order to remove the body (believed to be Medina's daughter, Lena) after several meetings with the valley farmers, the subject was dropped.
Now that you have a little history of this valley we'll get back to the trousers, forty years later I was building fence on this property in the hills above the farm ground and found a small pocket, not really a cave per say. A friend says we were looking for rattlesnakes, not building
fence, can't remember, spent a lot of time in these hills year around hunting and just looking around. This was a large flat rolling area that runs for 6-7 miles; not bad walking, with lots of game - rabbits, turkey, mule and whitetail deer, and a local herd of elk. Anyway whatever we were doing we could see something in this loaf shaped hole and after several hours of probing with long sticks we
removed some of the larger rocks to a point where we could see there were no snakes in our pocket under this opening in the side of the hill. Still not really comfortable I crawled inside with a flashlight and a small shovel and started scraping the ground looking for anything that could
have been drug into this natural living quarters that appeared to have housed some local coyotes. Most of the items were clean bones, a few pieces of skull of small animals, three old beads and a hard ball of leather that looked like an old shirt, torn but it looked like it was all there. We figured the beads came from the activities of a local mountainman club that ran monthly shoots on the
property, other items were the gathering of the local residents of this den, the coyotes.
I soaked the hard ball of leather for several days in a 5 gallon bucket of water, once soft the ball was stretched on a plywood surface and tacked down, the possible leather shirt turns out to be leather breeches that were manufactured by there appearance. Much of the construction was of the early style of machine sewing, commercial type brass buttons, small drop front design with the adjustable waist band tie in the back. The waist band is whip stitched, about 15-16 stitches to the inch with a canvas
type material sandwiched between the leather for extra support. The brass button are of the dished style with crude lettering of the manufacturer, now white with mineral deposits. the legs are slightly tapered to the knee with the usual buttoned cuff below the knee and the bulky butt area like the military ones of the early 1800's.
After showing the breeches to the local museum in Loveland, I was sent to the library in search of a Mrs. Zethyl Gates - librarian and local historian. At the time she was still working on a book about local mountainman Marino Medina (since that time she has done several books, articles and papers about this man). She has spent most of her working life researching Medina and others of the late fur trade in Colorado and Wyoming, even went to Spain to research Medina's family history.
When walking into the library I was sent to her office at once with my old beat-up leather trousers and found a very excited Mrs. Gates, she had been called by the museum about these breeches. She showed me a late picture of Marino wearing breeches like the ones I have found and another picture of Louie Papa (Medina's step-son) wearing the same breeches, taken in a parade in Loveland after the turn of the century. Interesting, but questionable as to whether they were his or someone else's and how did the trousers get on this hill?
A few years later I was visiting an old friend in Chadron, NE; Charles E. Hanson, Jr., may have heard of him, showed him the old breeches and told him the story and Mrs. Gates interest. He said, " let's go to my study, and the museum (Museum of the Fur Trade) want to show you something".
Charles points out a leather coat with similar brass buttons and similar construction, had been purchased from a family in northern Colorado at a gun show and traded around for a period before finding its new home at the museum. The next thing out of Charles mouth was "how much". According to Mr. Hanson this type of coat and pants (trousers) were made commercially in California during the late fur trade and still available after the Indian Wars.
Much of this style of garment saw sales in the traders tents and posts across the Rockies during this period, along with long wool and cotton socks. Interesting how the article about David Thompson's leather breeches brought about this story for your reading pleasure. Then just 6-8 months ago Wes Housler of Rocky Mountain College Productions mentioned the idea of breeches or short pantaloons over the phone as we were talking about what supplies would be needed from Clark & Sons Mercantile
for their next adventure in the Rockies, that will be filmed making number #2 in a series of items covering the Fur Trade. I told Wes of what you had just read and we both thought this would be very interesting to anyone working as a trapper or doing fur trade re-enactments. Wes, like our old friend of the fur trade that has now passed to the other side - Charles E. Hanson, Jr, both have found countless sources of information on the subject in journals as well as reference to the use in of breeches in many accounts of life on the frontier. Wes has also found reference to the use of these garments in supply lists from a number of suppliers, trading posts and forts. I have had similar experiences; as well as having a late fur trade period pair of breeches, believed to have possibility belonged to Marino Medina. Using pictures from Colorado Historical Society, photo's from the Zethyl Gates's collection, photo's from the Loveland Reporter Herald that has run accounts of the local mountainman's adventures; plus with the knowledge of Mr. Hanson on the style - cut - manufacture and material used in these short pants and the location of their storage for years has helped to bring ownership closer.
I not going any further than this with article that Bill has published in the T&LR, but will give you some sources.
Sources:
Ball, Clara, ed. Loveland-Big Thompson Valley 1877-1977 Centennial, 1975.
Camp, Charles L., ed. ôJames Clyman Frontiersman. Portland: Champoeg Press,
1960. Gates, Zethyl, ôMariano Medina Colorado Mountain Manö Johnson Publishing
Co., 1981
Hafen, LeRoy R., ed. ôGeorge A. JacksonÆs Diary, 1858-1859.ö Colorado
Magazine 12 (November 1935): 201-214.
Hengesbaugh, Jeff & Housler, Wes, ôDress and Equipage of the Mountain
Man 1820-1840ö Rocky Mountain College Productions, 1997.
Kephart, Bruce, ôHawken Rifleö Saturday Evening Post, 21 February 1920, p.65.
Ruxton, George Frederick August, ôLife in the Far Westö Oklahoma Press, 1951.
This gives you a longer story than planned Hawk
Later
Buck Conner
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