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hist_text-digest       Wednesday, March 24 1999       Volume 01 : Number 267




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:17:19 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RIFLING MACHINE

Foxfire V has a section of instruction on just this subject.  Enough that=
 you
should be able to figure one out.  Sure wouldn't cost much, especially if=
 you
already have a stithy.  A small forge or torch would do if you buy blanks=
 to
rifle.  If you forge weld the barrel first, it will require a touch more
heat.=20
A fun project.

What they show is pretty much how it was done, they were just the last to
remember.  Somebody else needs to remember.

Fine, fine work was done on such.  The basics are real simple I've got a =
hunch
there's a few learning experiences in getting it to really work slick,
might be
easier than I think.  Simple country solutions to higher mathematics, it'=
s
some
of what folks used to know. =20

John...

At 10:09 PM 3/22/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Pendelton,
>
>Back a few years ago there was an excellent series in the Muzzleloader
>Magazine about an early gunmaker.=A0 When I get a chance I'll try and lo=
cate
>it for you, but it went into great detail about how the guns were made b=
y
>hand.=A0 I think it described the barrel making machine.
>
>Give me about a week and I'll see what I can find.
>
>Best Regards,=20
>
>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>________________________________________________________________________=
___
_____
>
>At 07:49 PM 3/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Where can I get detailed drawings of a rifling machine?=A0 Some of us h=
ave a
>>wild hair to build our own gun barrels.=A0 Might want to sell one somed=
ay you
>>can't ever tell.
>>Pendleton
>>
>>
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:18:17 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube OT

   >If you speak of the land of sagebrush, bottomless mud and bleak
   >mineral mines --  a long way from nowhere - no.  Quite a ways east
   >of there.
Thats what I was speaking of! It does'nt always work but I try to avoid talk
of politics on the history lists as it always seems to lead to 20th century
debates on current polititions. In Jeffs "Working Stiffs Dictionary" under
Politition it says ....see Liar and under Liar...see politition. Its 3am and
my spelling sucks today(need another cup of joe!

   >Or do you speak of the fur trade era rapscallion Senator from here.
Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

Give me a woman who truly loves beer,and I will conquer the world!

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:53:54 -0800
From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Copperware

> Greetings Ghosting Wolf & List,
>
>     I purchased my canteen, small & large Boilers (nesting set) from
> Westminster Forge. They also supplied a earthenware cup, for the drinking of
> hot beverages free of charge. I'm very happy with my purchase from W.F. and
> recommend them to you. Also Peter Gobel of Goose Bay Workshops makes many
> useful items, the quality of which is very good.
>     Catalogs may be obtained from both companies.
>
> Westminster Forge
> P.O. Box 257
> Versailles, CT. 06383
> send two regular postage stamps for a catalog
>
> Goose Bay Workshops
> 990 Greenwood Road
> Crozet, VA. 22932
> For catalog send $3 refundable w/ purchase
>
> Best regards,
>
> Terry Smith
>
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Terry,
> >
> > I found your post very interesting. Where did you get the tin lined copper?
> > May be of interest to the list. Thanks.
> >
> > Ghosting Wolf
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:51:29 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's last stand

The best treatment I have read on the location of Jedediahs place of death was
done by Paul Kelly entitled "The Death of Jed Smith" and appeared in the
August 98
Muzzleblasts.

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:29:26 -0800
From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

A method I have used quite successfully and which is quite proper from a
historic perspective is to poke the quill end of a small bird feather in the
touch hole of your flinter to keep the charge dry.  This method produces a
tight seal, can be removed readily without breakage, even though a snug fit
can be produced and, they are readily available when walking the woods.
I have had successful discharges after a week is such a state.
Yr. Mst. Humbl.......

John Funk


- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 4:39 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles


>
>>John Dearing wrote:
>>
>>> >
>>> > >How long do you suppose a loaded muzzleloader was carried before
>>it was
>>> > >discharged and loaded fresh? If a man's life depended on his
>>rifle firing,
>>> > >it would seem he would have to consider dampness, condensation,
>>etc. so
>>> > >there would be some limit to the dependability of a loaded rifle.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I have seen many references to colonial period frontiersmen drawing
>>their loads,
>>> cleaning and recharging their pieces each evening.  I can only
>>assume that this
>>> procedure was followed into the period of the Rocky Mtn. fur trade.
>> J.D.
>>
>JD
>I may be one of those werd ones(BG) but I have been using and hunting
>with my old rifle gun for over 40 years and have loaded it on opening day
>of deer season and left the load in it for over a week and have never had
>a problem with a misfire---you get that problem when you clean the gun
>and dont get all the oil and moisture out---I snap 3 or 4 caps and make
>sure the nipple is clear and dry--take a bit of beeswax and wipe around
>the nipple and cap her up---seals her up like a suppository rifle and
>even when carrying it out in the weather have not had bad hang fires or
>those that were noticably to me---you must have a good fitting nipple and
>the cap must fit tight---if it doesnt then it truly will draw
>moisture---if you were required to reload every day or so look at the
>amount of powder you would be using in a years time and look at all the
>old guns that are found loaded today---trick is the good fitting nipple
>to cap combination---I have to use a knife to remove the cap once i have
>installed it---my brother has a flinter which he squirrel hunts with and
>he keeps it loaded all the time when he is ready to shoot it he picks the
>tough hole and primes it and it always goes off --and fast too---real
>dependable--during turkey season I had my trade gun loaded for 4 days
>before i shot it and she didn't misfire or hang---You got to know the
>capability of your gun--some i have seen just wont keep the charge dry
>for a extended period and others you will have no problem with of any
>kind---kina like other things---have to know the proper care and feeding
>of the animal in question---
>
>most of the guys believe you shold shoot out the load each day and start
>over each day--it's really up to you and how you have cared and
>maintained that old fire stick---remember if black powder drew as much
>moisture as some would have you believe then there would not be such a
>thing a black powder supposotory shells---the trick is keep the firestick
>dry and free of oil and moisture as much as possibly---have a cows nee
>for my flinter and it will go off even in the rain and moist climate-- if
>it has dry prime and ther is no moisture in and around the touch
>hole---saw dale black fall in the creek with his flint gun and it went
>under water---he got up shook it off and shot it was in a match---some of
>your flint locks have what is called a waterproof pan---that is where the
>frizzen is in full contact to the pan and there is a channel all around
>the frizzen and pan so that the moisture can drain away from the pan and
>not get on or near the touch hole---the durs egg lock is a good example
>of this water proof type pan.  remember everyone has their personal
>preference to how long to have a load in a gun but it comes down to
>really it's up to you and what your gun likes---
>
>"HAWK"
>Michael pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor Florida  34684
>E-mail:   [e-mail]
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:38:41 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Lube

I am one of those guys that hates spending money so I try to do everything
myself.  I have been wondering about lubes and really do not want to purch.
any more so I just made some up.  I am using the hardened grease that I have
collected from my cooking exploits.  I mixed that with some shortening and
threw a little mink oil in for a better smell.  Melted it down and when it
was nice and liquid I soaked a pillow tickling strip then hung it out to
dry.  I will try using this on my next outing which can't be soon enough.
If you think I will run into problems please let me know since I am kinda
new at this.  A few of my older shooting friendes just use tallow for lube,
I am hoping that my mix will be just as good.

Thanks

Frank V. Rago

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:11:16 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

Some notes on this subject from the Canadian fur trade:

"Our Indian friend made some preparations to follow the animal [moose], but
after going about two hundred yeards he paused a little--drew the charge
from his gun and returned..." March 16, 1820; Portage la Loche area (Back, 56)

"As usual in the evening, the fowling pieces were being washed and cleaned,
and were then not fit for use, but there was a loaded mosquet...[After the
polar bear came...] a fowling piece was quickly dried, loaded with two
balls, and fired into him, the wound was mortal..." Hudson's Bay, 1786
(Thompson, _Narrative_, 29)

One of Alexander Henry the Younger's men was accidentally killed through
horseplay with firearms. A gun was put away in the fur posts attic in the
winter. In July, it was fired in jest at a man. It went off & killed him.
1804, Red River? (Henry & Coues, I:249)

"[Le Borgne, the Hidatsa Chief] desired us to fresh prime our guns, examine
the flints, and be ready to fire at a moment's warning." 1806, Mandan
villages (Henry & Coues, I:394)

Also, in 1820, the battling Athabasca fur posts of the NWC & HBC were
electrified by hearing a gun shot near Lake Athabasca in an area where there
had been a confrontation earlier in the day. It turned out to be an HBC man
who was unloading his gun at the end of the day by firing it into the lake.
(Simpson, ?)

As always, if anyone wants more details on the references, just ask.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:10:19 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

[e-mail] writes:

> As always, if anyone wants more details on the references, just ask.

Angella,

All good references which you provided as usual, however none of them tell if
guns were carried loaded.  What they did provide evidence for was, that after
having been used one or more times, the guns were unloaded and cleaned at the
end fo the day.  This is totally different than carrying a loaded gun which
has not been fired.  Your one attic accident did show that they were left
loaded, and the Indian incident showed that the load was left in the gun, but
the priming was changed.

Dave Kanger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:06:27 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lube

[e-mail] wrote:

> I am one of those guys that hates spending money so I try to do everything
> myself.  I have been wondering about lubes and really do not want to purch.
> any more so I just made some up.  I am using the hardened grease that I have
> collected from my cooking exploits.

Frank,

Your mix of ingredients is probably fine. The bottom line is of course, does it
work? One thing that you may wish to stay away from is using grease from
"cooking exploits" as it may contain salts. The salt would of course be
detrimentle to good barrel health.

Your buddies use of tallow is appropriate and I use it too. But it is rendered
lard ,tallow  or bear grease, not bacon grease or left over cooking greases. I
remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:08:15 +1200
From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lube

Frank v Rago wrote,
I mixed that with some shortening and
threw a little mink oil in for a better smell.  Melted it down and when
it.....


I tried the same but I threw a little skunk oil in mine to make it smell
better.............

Kia Ora
Big Bear
In stormy wet Marlborough New Zealand.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:34:37 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tallow and Beeswax - Not for Patch Lube!?

Barbara Smith wrote:

> Dave,
>
> The reason beewswax was mixed with Tallow is not for Patch Lube! <snip>
> Thus, beeswax and sheep combo offered by Dixie would be very appropriate
> for use as candling, and if you gotta candle in your shooting bag,
> you've got lube!<snip>
>
> I have NO idea how it was used, as I am very new to the shooting end of
> this calling (shot my first flinter last Saturday). <snip>
>
> Finally, I've heard that a trapper will always carry a candle in his
> shooting bag.  I assumed it was for fire starting and emergency
> lighting.  Perhaps lube as well?
>
> YMDS
> -Tassee

Tassee,

Thanks for the info on making candles. But tallow and bee's wax not used as
a lube? Whoa, gal!

As you point out rendered tallow makes a too soft candle so bee's wax was
often mixed in to stiffen the mixture. Though the question is still to be
answered as to what was used as a patch lube, it is reasonable to assume
that if rendered fat was used and bee's wax was available, a mix of the two
would travel a lot better. Perhaps carried in the form of your "trapper's
candle" or in a convenient container. In the course of "Exploratory
Archeology" I find animal fats and natural wax's will serve to fill the need
for a number of products. Patch lube, gun lube, leather treatments, water
proofings, salves and balms, emergency rations, etc. just to name a few.
Hope this rounds out the picture a bit. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:51:32 -0600
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's last stand

JON MARINETTI wrote:
>
> Would anyone out there know if any archaeological work was or is in
> progress to discover Jed Smith's grave or burial site?  Near Santa Fe?

I think the circumstances of his death prevented any grave or burial.
Although I am sure he would have preferred a Christian burial, to me it
would have been a shame to confine the bones of such a well-traveled
mountain man to a grave.

Iron Burner
Glenn Darilek

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:26:33 -0600
From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Carrying loaded rifles

> >I'm not so sure.  JD provided documentation for military circumstances.
> >Pulling a ball would require running a screw into it and messing up the ball.
> >The military might have had a good supply of balls to issue, but I think that
> >ruining a ball every night in the wilderness environment would not be done.
> >That would necessitate that it be melted down and recast.

My source was not reporting events taking place in the military, but rather
in hunting camps.

Why would a pulled ball need to be recast? I don't think anyone was concerned
about pinpoint accuracy, just enough accuracy to kill a deer, bear, or buffalo at
70 or so yards, usually much closer. No match accuracy needed here. Just poke
that ball back down the bore and use it on the next shot.

I am assuming that those guns had been fired earlier that day, and were cleaned
and made ready for the next day.

> >Methinks that those who insist that powder will get damp dost protest too
> >much.  It's 20th century mindset that does that.

Well,  I have had powder get damp, but at other times...no dampness, under
similar conditions. We in the twentieth century don't have to worry about
Indian attacks at dawn, or being overrun by French traders, who would kill us
just to make the point that English hunters/traders are not welcome West of the
Alleghenies.

If you were in that position, would you leave your gun loaded for an extended
period, or would you take the time to perform the maintenance to make DAMN
SURE  it works every time?

We in the twentieth century are far too secure to make such assumptions about how
often guns were cleaned and what process was used to do that, in the 18 Th. century.

Your Servant
J.D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:28:23 -0600
From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)

Friends,

Thank all of you for your positive input.  Looks like the show was well
received by the toughest critics of 'em all. :-)  I was proud and delighted
to recommend Dean Rudy, Todd Glover, and Rex Norman to the producers.  I
heard good comments from Greystone on how impressive all the participants
were.   My segments were shot in September about two weeks before the
Wyoming scenes were.  Bob Utley and I did ours the same day.  His was
videoed in his living room.  We were supposed to shoot my segment in Bob's
yard, but the weather was pretty wet, so we moved from his house to the
Jourdan-Backman Pioneer Farm Museum near Austin (Bob lives in Georgetown,
TX).  Unfortunately, the ideal building was about 50 feet from a road (it
was the only bldg available that had both good shelter and ample space) and
we had to stop about every 3 minutes to let traffic go by.  Mind you, as
rush hour approached, it was getting pretty aggravating, but we kept our
cool.  At one point the sound of a car got into the "moccasin" shot, but by
that time we were about ready to call it a day.

All the stuff I showed, including the red Whitney, was mine (2 duffel bags
worth) except the clay pipe.  The pipe belongs to one of my students, now
doing his internship at Bent's Fort.  I talked about many things, but there
was so much overlap between the five of us (Me, Bob, Rex, Roger, and Fred)
that much of what we all said was cut out.  I'm glad I was able to talk
about Beckwourth, and the fact that he wasn't the only black trapper.
Bob's and My comments about the Indian marriage gifts were well received by
my Lakota friend in Colorado.  Some were asking about the dog in my
segment.  He lives at the farm.  The crew wanted to move the dog, but I
thought he looked fine.  I told them that "until he starts licking his
b---s, just leave him alone."  So they did.  After all it was his home
anyway.  He entertained us by chasing after flies.

As for the other outdoor shots (rondy scenes, trapping, etc), they were
done near Pinedale, WY.  With the exception of a few anachronisms (like
golden buckskin and such) it looked alright.  Hats off to Todd, Dean, and
Rex.  They were on site and they did what they could to keep the bad stuff
away from the cameras.  Rex Norman told me yesterday that he took a blue
speckled coffee pot provided for the camp scenes and hid it.  Good move.
Kudos for Rex!  That's why I wanted those three involved.  I knew they'd
take care of things.  I didn't spot any labels on point blankets.  There
were some things the producers insisted on having in the script, like the
bit on "Jerimiah Johnson."  We tried to tell them that Johnson was mostly
myth, but our pleas  didn't work.  We also explained that the Hawken rifle
was NOT typical of mountain firearms during the Rendezvous period, but they
insisted on highlighting it anyway.  I was also a bit bothered about the
comment on the trappers learning scalping from the Indians.  The trappers
of the Rocky Mountain period may well have learned it from the plains
tribes, but they should have gone on to explain that scalping was actually
developed and encouraged by the British in the early 18th century in the
eastern woodlands.  Oh well.

About the charging of the rifle directly from the powder horn.  I know it's
a safety issue for us, (Lord knows I'd never do it) but I suspect that in a
fire fight with the Blackfeet or Arikara, a trapper probably wouldn't waste
time measuring powder.  I think we can live with that.  Especially if it's
a trapper who's intimately aquainted with his rifle, he  knows exactly how
much to use without measuring.  They didn't always measure.  We have to
make sure in our public demonstrations, however, that it's done properly
with safety in mind.

I can't really speak to what went on behind the scenes at the location
shots in Wyoming, so Dean, Rex, or Todd will have to comment on those.  My
impressions of those are merely guesswork, based on what they've told me.
I know from talking to Rex that it was damn cold.  The day the Hugh Glass
part was shot he says it was somewhere in the low 30s.  Hat's off to "Ol'
Hugh!"

I don't know when it'll be on again, but I'll try to find out and the list
will surely be the first to know.

Well, it's gettin' to be 'voo season again.  I'm sure to be out there
somewhere.  I look forward to sharing a fire with y'all, and maybe a sip or
two of Mountain Magic.

WAUGH!!!

(I'm leaving town till Monday, so I won't see any more commentary till then.)

Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:38:45 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: James Bond

If you read what was said you would see that James Bond was a fiction
character.

>I have found information that Flemming had used accounts from British
records on a >1/2 dozen agents during World War II for his character - James
Bond.


- -----Original Message-----
From: The Brooks <[e-mail]>
To: hist_text @lists <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:18 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: James Bond


>
>Just passing,
>James Bond never shot anything, He was in fact an author on a book on
native
>birds of Jamaica. That book just happened to be sitting on a table at a
>place called the gap at worlds end where Ian Fleming was writing his first
>novel and looking for a name for the hero.
>Kia Ora
>Big Bear
>In windy warm Marlborough New Zealand.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 02:10:25 +1200
From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: James Bond

Barry Wrote


>If you read what was said you would see that James Bond was a fiction
>character.


Sorry Barry, James bond was NOT I repeat NOT a fiction character The James
Bond that Ian Fleming wrote about may have been fiction but believe me there
was a real James Bond.. My original post if you reread it will explain. How
do I know?  Well I have been to the place in Jamaica where Ian Fleming wrote
the story and more to the point I have a copy of the book By James Bond in
my hot little hand. If you want I will scan it in and e-mail the front cover
to you. Kind Regards.
Kia Ora,
Big Bear
In Warming cloudy Marlborough New Zealand.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:11:13 -0600
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

Ron,
  Beeswax has such a low melting point that as long as you reload in
reasonable length of time it doesn't build up at all.  If you are going to
shoot the gun and then set it aside for awhile [30 min. or so]  you need to
wipe the bore.  Also if it is extremely cold you could have some trouble.
In that case you use a mixture with less beeswax in it.
Pendleton

- ----------
> From: Ron Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 8:54 PM
>
> Pendleton ,
>
> Doesn't the wax buildup on the inside of the barrel, similar to the way
> fouling builds up, making each shot harder to load?
>
> Ron
>
> >As for beeswax, it is some pretty amazing stuff.  I can't explain what
it
> >does to the inside of a gun barrel, but I really like what it does.  It
> >tends to seal the pores of the metal and it does a fine job of
preventing
> >rust problems.
>
> >Pendleton
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:49:33 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)

Henry and all


    Well, the Mountain Man film certainly was a lot of fun to work on. Riding
around near Green River Lake was just incredible. It was quite and education
working with a Hollywood film crew. Those guys know what they are doing.
    We also did our best to gently guide them towards authenticity, but most of
what we said feel on deaf ears. I kinda had to sympathize with the director,
cause once the folks were all assembled it would have been hard to send some
packing because their outfits didn't measure up, especially when they were all
locals. Believe me, I mentioned it. The Hollywood stereotype prevails as they
were more impressed with outfits with lots of beads and furs and long fringe
than ones of simple brain tan and linen.
    The John Colter chase scene was supposed to have some Crow tribesmen doing
the chasing, but the weather was bad and they didn't show which threw the crew
into a semi panic.
    Someone mentioned the trap setting scene with the fellow in "ear wax colored
buckskins." Well, enough said on that one. Suffice it to say, he was one of
Hollywood's favorites. Gotta love them beads and bones and fur trimmed boots.
    All in all I was fairly pleased with the outcome. It's quite educational for
the general public.
    Can't believe they spelled Dr. Gowans name wrong! And who is the McGrath from
U.C.L.A.? Can't say I know of any of his work.
    I think the best part of the whole deal was camping out with my buddies and
Chas Rauch and Rex Norman who became closer friends. That is some country them
Wind Rivers and "hallowed" ground for mountaineers.
    Thanks for the reference Henry.

Happy Trails

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:46:45 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

If folks are only looking for loaded guns the rock and mineral encrusted =
one
next to the Coulter stone at the museum in Moose, WY was still loaded whe=
n we
stabilized it in 1983.  I think its still there.

If some think their grease is polluting their powder they may be using to=
o
much
grease on the patch.  The only time anything wet should go down the bore =
is
when swabbing or cleaning.  Then wipe perfectly dry, lightly oil and wipe=
 dry
again.  My oiled patches are dry to the touch.  You only need a little lu=
be.

I've kept my musket loaded for over two months at a time in years past.  =
I've
lived, slept and traveled with it loaded; rain and shine.  On the trail i=
t
hangs from my saddle in a scabbard made of a folded and laced piece of el=
k
rawhide, or it is in my hand.  I once cleared a load that I'm not sure ho=
w
many
years it had been there in the humid mid-west.  Not once has my fusil
failed to
fire when I needed it to fire.  I've only found it necessary to keep the
frizzen closed or covered and the barrel stoppered with a vented tompion.

I seldom fire more than once in a day.  Usually I'll swab the bore after
shooting with a little spit and oil, if I've time to leisurely reload -- =
then
reload and perhaps not clear it for a month or so.  I have been known to =
pull
the ball, add or change the shot load and tamp the ball back in on top of=
 the
same (or improved) powder charge.

During this period it was the only gun I owned and I either lived with gr=
izzly
bears or the more dangerous (certainly more numerous) two legged critters=
.  An
empty gun makes a poor club. =20

My weapon I think was as important to me then, as to those back when.  I =
lived
a nomadic life seeking and not finding fortune as a Rocky Mountain Man.  =
For
long periods my only transport was my horses and mules --- there was no t=
ruck
at the end of the trail, there weren't no end of the trail, or home to re=
turn
to.  It was my protection and my pantry.  I trust it to work when I need =
it.

When a hunt is finished, sometimes, I'll pull the last load and clean the
bore.  I'm known to be lax on gun care and I've learned it takes real
effort to
ruin a gun.  Mine is in tip-top condition no matter the neglect and abuse.
But
then I've never used any petroleum products on it.  I've had it since '78=
.=20
It's old enough to vote. =20

The only times I've really cleaned it over the years was after a day of
shooting for fun.  Shooting blank charges at hooraws dirties things up fa=
st.=20
On the trail I became very conservative of powder and shot, I had to tran=
sport
all that I needed and I didn't want to be out if the need became critical=
.=20
Like back then it was a long way between opportunities to replenish suppl=
ies.=20
Most of the places today offer chemical jerky and parched corn

When I'm hungry I load with patched ball over swan shot over scraps of oi=
led
buckskin wadding (70 gr FF in .69 cal.), to have a fair chance at the fir=
st
toothsome thing I see.  Sleeping in griz country I drop 14 - .31 balls do=
wn in
place of the swan shot over 105 gr.  It's not a lot of fun touching this =
load
off, in an emergency you never notice.  Not for the faint of heart or a w=
eak
breech.  Proof your gun to twice your max load first.

The one thing that seems to help dependability the most is to be sure the
touchhole is clear, dribble a little powder in it and only have a scant t=
ouch
of powder in the pan.  Overfilling a pan causes more problems than anythi=
ng
else.  It really doesn't take much.

It helps that my lock has very strong springs so it throws lots of sparks=
 even
with a dull rock.  I had one hunk of red jasper that sparked hot for year=
s.=20
Stayed tight in the jaws.  Never sharpened it once.  Hated it when it fin=
ally
wore down too small, never had another so good.  It sparked thousands of
times.  Kept the nub.  =20

John...


At 01:10 PM 3/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>[e-mail] writes:
>
>> As always, if anyone wants more details on the references, just ask.
>
>Angella,
>
>All good references which you provided as usual, however none of them te=
ll if
>guns were carried loaded.=A0 What they did provide evidence for was, tha=
t after
>having been used one or more times, the guns were unloaded and cleaned a=
t the
>end fo the day.=A0 This is totally different than carrying a loaded gun =
which
>has not been fired.=A0 Your one attic accident did show that they were l=
eft
>loaded, and the Indian incident showed that the load was left in the gun=
, but
>the priming was changed.
>
>Dave Kanger
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:44:23 -0800
From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man (long)

Thanks, Todd, for for this post.  I hated to be the only one who felt required to address
the less desirable aspects of the film.  There's a three-point law in Hollywood when it
comes to making a film:  "If you're short of time, substitute money.  If you're short of
money, substitute time.  And if you're short of time and money...substitute someone
else's name on the credits."  The producers of the History Channel's THE MOUNTAIN MEN
were obviously short on time and money.

My daughter, who teaches school to fourth graders and has been going to Rendezvous' since
she was six, wanted me to tape the show for use in her classroom.  Halfway through the
telecast, we agreed to turn off the VCR.  She felt the pacing (or lack of it) of the film
would not hold the interest of her class.  I was just embarrassed by the misinformation.
I guess the film wasn't directed to children.

I was glad you mentioned the Day-glow orange leather on the "Sunday-go-to-meeting" skins
of men who should have been wearing the smoke and grease stained clothing of the working
stiffs who plied those streams.  I'm surprised you didn't comment on the wrist watch
featured on the guy using the telescope.

But more frustrating than the obvious continuity problems was the incorrect beaver set!
THIS in a story where the main focus was the trapping trade.  That brought me out of my
chair to correct this misinformation to the small audience that had gathered in my den to
see the telecast.

And the pain didn't stop there.  Even the dead were utilized in the "lie".  Who the hell
was the guy with the Winchester rifle?  He wasn't a Mountain Man.  Maybe an Army scout?
If so, that photo dated from the Civil or Indian War period. It was placed fairly early
in the film, too, instead of at the end when the beaver played out and the trappers were
all taking other jobs    Did the director think us "history-buffs" were too stupid to
notice?  I guess the picture wasn't directed towards us history affectionados.

I'm sorry, Todd, if I seem to be directing my frustration out on the the director of the
film.  Apparently you had a good working relationship with him.  But...it's his fault.
The Producer may have been responsible for coordinating the personnel to and from the
locations and to make sure money was spent wisely BUT the director is the guy who runs
the set and decides what shots to take.  Did he work from a shot-by-shot script or
storyboard...or did he just shoot a lotta "stuff" and cut and paste together a film back
at the editing bay?  We used to call those guys "Movieola directors"(based on the machine
that ran the 35 mm film for editing purposes).  Using today's technology, they would
probably be called "Flatbed" or "Avid directors".  These guys do very little research or
pre-planning and expect to "save it" in editing.  Well, Doctor, this patient died on the
editing table.

Do you watch a lot of History Channel?  If you do, you'll notice that the most common
type of documentary is the "single running narrator" type of film.  This is a film that
employs one guy with a great voice to explain what the film is all about.  It's
Idiot-proof.  The film images don't even have to match the narration, they just have to
be interesting.  You could close your eyes and just listen to a fairly informative
"book-on-tape".  The "medium"(visual film) is secondary to the message(historic
information).  It's lousy filmaking but good history.

But the "best" documentaries don't ignore either the filmaking OR the history.  Case in
point: Ken Burns' Civil War series.  Great images produced by the best photographers of
the era.  A terrific sound track(even if the hit theme wasn't "period"). A solid running
narrator interrupted by "actors"(not reenactors or relatives or friends of the
director)reading quotes of the actual participants.  "Talking heads" of knowledgeable and
easy to listen to contemporary experts/historians talking to us as modern visitors to
this ancient world.(God, I could listen to Shelby Foote read the phone book just to hear
his drawl!).  These scenes of dead people (still photos and dry historians}were
"sweetened" by shots of reenactors pretending to kill each other.  All this cut together
by a director who took a lot of time (substituted for money)deciding when to hold, when
to dissolve or when to cut.

Unfortunately, the producer and director of THE MOUNTAIN MEN, faced with a lack of time,
money and/or talent (you decide which) chose to ignore the Idiot-proof method and tried
to mimic the form that produced an award winning film for Ken Burns. Wrong choice.
Pernell Roberts was a good choice for narrator but he never provided the "thread"
necessary to inform us.  He started out early in the film attempting to establish himself
as "the voice of the film" but disappeared for great blocks of time.  He finally
reappeared towards the end of the film when he talked a lot, as if embarrassed by his
absence.  It's not your fault, Pernell.  You didn't choose to do that.

And it's not the fault of the "talking heads" employed (gratis, I'm sure)to give
justification to the historic aspects of the film.  I enjoyed the times they were on
camera the best.  In fact, I would have rather had Henry spend more time talking about
the stuff on his "trade blanket" than seeing shots of sparkling clean "mountain men"
posing for the camera.  You gentlemen gave validity to the enterprise by talking with
authority and conviction.  I hope the audience was awake to hear you enlighten them.
Good choice.

Great sets.  You can't beat the mountains for awe inspiring scenery.  Another good
choice.  Unfortunately, we needed a greater variety of settings to tell the scope of
these events.  We needed more river ports, more Indian villages, more fur posts.  We
didn't need the filmmakers to build expensive sets(Although location shots of Bent's Old
Fort, Fort Union, or Fort Bridger would have added much appreciated interest)...great
photos or illustrations would do.  I know...I know.  They only had so much time with so
many people to shoot this thing.  I've heard it all before.  Probably said it myself.
But a little more time, properly planned would have provided side trips in a van for
location set ups with a couple of  locals...or not, if they weren't dressed with as much
care as the sets.  A trip to the museum of the Fur Trade or the St. Louis arch would have
given the viewer a break from the same calendar shots over and over again.

God, what I wouldn't have given for a little more time spent on the equipment!  Wasn't
there time for shots of period weapons?  Even a drawing or illustration of a full stock
flintlock?  What's in the shooting bag?   How did they pack a mule?  Set a snare?  Stalk
an elk or buffalo?  I wish they had been present when everyone gutted and skinned the
buff at the AMM National a couple of years ago.  Probably not PC (Politically Correct)
enough for today's audience.  Ah, hell, it wasn't the consultants' fault. They didn't
write (or not write) the script.

Still, I wish the film would have followed the Trade chronologically.  Instead, they
chose a book chapter approach, where they cut back and forth across time to talk about
Coulter or Bridger as if they ran around together.  It might have made the Winchester
easier to bear.  It confused my daughter, who is knowledgeable, and her friends, who were
not.  Me?  I was just pissed off.  But I guess the filmmakers weren't directing the film
towards their peer group.

So, who was this film for?  What did it set out to accomplish?  Was it suppose to attract
Everyman to this period of history by being entertaining and informative?  I don't think
it succeeded at either of those goals.  It was kind of like watching home movies.
"Oh,wow!  There's the Rocky Mountains.  Gee, I used to have a set of skins like that
before I knew better.  So, that's what Crawford looks like.  Doesn't seem ugly enough to
be a Mountain Man." It was that aspect of it that kept me watching long after my wife had
fallen asleep and the kids excused themselves.  Loyalty to the Brothers.  Still, I felt
we all deserved better.  Hell, I felt the viewers at large deserved better.  And because
it was on the HISTORY channel, the audience were all history buffs after all.  They gotta
know they were cheated.  Even if loyalty kept them there.

Sorry for the essay.  It's 4 AM in Los Angeles and I couldn't sleep for thinking about
it.  I felt I copped out by ignoring the issue this long.  As a working professional for
thirty years in television and motion pictures, I felt in some way responsible for the
way this thing turned out.  Guilt by association.  Loyalty by association, too, I guess.
If anyone out there truly loved this film, it's Okay to do so.  If you hated it, you have
company.  If you worked on it as a consultant or a living prop, I absolve you of all
responsibility.  But if you produced or directed this turkey, don't forget to substitute
your names in the credits, Guys.

Just for the informational record, this address is taken out in the name of my wife,
Laurel, but I am known as:
"Shoots-the-Prairie"Larry Huber
#1517 AMM(American Mountain Men)
ATAS(Academy of Television Arts and Sciences)
AOF(Active Old Fart)


[e-mail] wrote:

> Henry and all
>
>         Well, the Mountain Man film certainly was a lot of fun to work on. Riding
> around near Green River Lake was just incredible. It was quite and education
> working with a Hollywood film crew. Those guys know what they are doing.
>         We also did our best to gently guide them towards authenticity, but most of
> what we said feel on deaf ears. I kinda had to sympathize with the director,
> cause once the folks were all assembled it would have been hard to send some
> packing because their outfits didn't measure up, especially when they were all
> locals. Believe me, I mentioned it. The Hollywood stereotype prevails as they
> were more impressed with outfits with lots of beads and furs and long fringe
> than ones of simple brain tan and linen.
>         The John Colter chase scene was supposed to have some Crow tribesmen doing
> the chasing, but the weather was bad and they didn't show which threw the crew
> into a semi panic.
>         Someone mentioned the trap setting scene with the fellow in "ear wax colored
> buckskins." Well, enough said on that one. Suffice it to say, he was one of
> Hollywood's favorites. Gotta love them beads and bones and fur trimmed boots.
>         All in all I was fairly pleased with the outcome. It's quite educational for
> the general public.
>         Can't believe they spelled Dr. Gowans name wrong! And who is the McGrath from
> U.C.L.A.? Can't say I know of any of his work.
>         I think the best part of the whole deal was camping out with my buddies and
> Chas Rauch and Rex Norman who became closer friends. That is some country them
> Wind Rivers and "hallowed" ground for mountaineers.
>         Thanks for the reference Henry.
>
> Happy Trails
>
> Todd Glover

------------------------------

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