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hist_text-digest        Tuesday, March 23 1999        Volume 01 : Number 266




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:04:55 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

In response to JD's answer Pat writes:

> Think you are correct on that.

I'm not so sure.  JD provided documentation for military circumstances.
Pulling a ball would require running a screw into it and messing up the ball.
The military might have had a good supply of balls to issue, but I think that
ruining a ball every night in the wilderness environment would not be done.
That would necessitate that it be melted down and recast.  I don't think that
the Mountain Man would have done that.  He had enough to do without creating
more work for himself.

>Sure wouldn't want a damp load if my life depended on it. How long do you
think they would have left a load in??

Why do you think that the load would be damp in the first place?  I have left
my gun loaded for several months at a time and it always fired, even under
damp conditions.  I clear the pan and stick a toothpick in the touchhole.
Others have used feathers for this purpose.  Original guns are discovered
every day that are still loaded after 100 years or more, and they still go
off.  Black powder don't spoil.  If you use way too much patch lube, then it
might leach into the powder, but I don't think it would render the whole load
unfireable.

I carried my smoothbore during Colorado's elk season last fall in early
October.  It snowed, rained, and the sun shone bright.  In the midst of
packing up camp, I neglected to unload it.  It came back to Illinois through
several climate changes, and went into the basement.  I then taught 2 Hunter
Ed classes, and remembering that it was still loaded at that point, used it to
demonstrate how one could tell if a black powder gun was actually loaded.  It
went back into the basement until the end of November where I took it to the
Ft. DesChartres WoodsWalk.  It was rainy and the fog was so thick you could
cut it with a knife.  They made me shoot the gun before starting the walk.  It
fired flawlessly.

Methinks that those who insist that powder will get damp dost protest too
much.  It's 20th century mindset that does that.

Dave Kanger

I'd like to
> know as
>  the guys seem to load an shoot out here.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:29:26 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question

"Life Among the Apaches" by John C. Cremony
Originally written in 1868 by the man who was interpreter to the U.S.
boundry commission in the years 1849,50,&51.

I enjoyed the book enouph to read it twice.

Tony


- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 8:51 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question


>Hello the list,
>    While I know later on Kit Carson dealt with the Apache as an Indian
Agent
>(1857 or so), was there any earlier interaction between the Apache and
south
>western Mountain Men during the fur trade era? If so, any trading?
>    I haven't come across any references in either Apache history or my
>limited shelf of mountain man books, but Taos is right there where they
were.
>
>Thanks for your time,
>Jim
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:27:10 +0000
From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Horn and scrimming...

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If you paint the horn with poster paint (white) then scratch through =
this to make your lines.  Ink this with waterproof ink or I like =
artist's oil paint.  Once this has dried wash the poster paint off and =
the only thing that should remain are the inked sections.

Good Luck
Rick


- -----Original Message-----
From:    sean [SMTP:[e-mail]]
Sent:    Friday, March 19, 1999 4:30 AM
To:    Mountain Man List
Subject:    MtMan-List: Horn and scrimming...

I have a good horn... polished and thinned, smoothed, etc... I want to =
try
to do some scrimshaw on it... my first attempt.  How do I keep the ink =
from
getting into other cracks in the horn when I start applying it?
*chuckles*.. and before someone says it.. I know... veeerrryyy =
carefully...
Someone told me to use beeswax and scrim thru it, but that is a real =
pain in
the butt.  Any better ideas?

Addison Miller
aka Sean





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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:53:34 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck Connor's comments

Members,

I have been looking for the address of the London company that made the
lube, no luck yet. But I found the information on the guns these gentlemen
were shooting; a Rupp 1/2 stock prec. in 45 cal. and a Twigg 1/2 stock
flintlock conv. to prec. in 50 cal. Both guns were in NRA excellent
condition. Years later I have found information that Flemming had used
accounts from British records on a 1/2 dozen agents during World War II for
his character - James Bond. The whole club enjoyed the experience and we
still talk about these two and their excellent shooting ability, what a tale
that we all will carry to our graves.

Buck
________________________
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
To: History List <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 3:53 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Buck Connor's comments


Buck
The post you were replying to was from Laurel Huber, not from me.  It was a
great post nontheless.  The story sort of belies the notion that James Bond
always shot a pipsqueak .25 auto.
Lanney

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:00:18 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

John,

Think how greased up one get's after cutting up an elk or deer, can you see
how dirty these groups would get without a good soap or lots of warm water,
it would be caked on.

Buck
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube


>Buck,
>
>Yep, think I remember seeing some, a quick perusal of #142 (my most current
>and only copy) revealed none.
>
>
>They may not have always needed to render the fat.  It may work
differently?
>Better or worse?  To which purpose?
>
>Simply eating kept them pretty well greased up.  I don't think they spent a
>lot of time thinking about it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:25:05 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

Dave,
I have done the same thing with my fowler, hunted elk in Colorado but didn't
have to leave, so the temperature change wasn't a problem, but wiped it down
and set it in the safe, then spaced it out for 6 months. When I remembered
it I was sick thinking the bore would be "ringed", pulled the ball, cleaned
it and its fine.

I am sure the reason its not ringed is because of the patch lube used, an
oil base, if it had been water base that may have been a different story I'm
afraid. We have all seen what old lubes that failed and what was done to the
bores of many originals.

In the late 50's I bought a blunderbust (boarding weapon), original in
excellent condition, brass barrel, all the proof marks checked it out to be
a 1780's inspected piece from London. Never looked at the bore, quess
because the rest looked so good and everything worked, even had an old
French amber flint. Anyway after playing with it and rubbing it down with
some fine gun oil, I decided to clean the bore. Low and behold the damn
thing was loaded, I had dropped the hammer several times, good thing the
flint was dull.

After pulling out wads of patching, broken glass and a few cut nails, I got
two charges of powder - the first one out of the barrel was very coarse, the
second was like cigar ash. Both were dry, so with a good flint and some fire
in the pan that old baby would have done some proud talking, I'd probably
need to be cleaned up with a garden hose.

We lit a small amount of each powder in the ash tray the first one acted
like you would think with a good flash, the fine powder just smoked. Have no
idea how old either one was.

Buck

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles


>>Sure wouldn't want a damp load if my life depended on it. How long do you
>think they would have left a load in??
>Original guns are discovered every day that are still loaded after 100
years or more, >and they still go off.  Black powder don't spoil.  If you
use way too much patch lube, >then it might leach into the powder, but I
don't think it would render the whole load >unfireable.
>
>I carried my smoothbore during Colorado's elk season last fall in early
>October.  It snowed, rained, and the sun ..................
>
>Methinks that those who insist that powder will get damp dost protest too
>much.  It's 20th century mindset that does that.
>
>Dave Kanger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:06:31 -0600
From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

> >I may be one of those werd ones(BG) but I have been using and hunting
> >with my old rifle gun for over 40 years and have loaded it on opening day
> >of deer season and left the load in it for over a week and have never had
> >a problem with a misfire---you get that problem when you clean the gun
> >and dont get all the oil and moisture out---"HAWK"

Good to hear from you Hawk.  It's been years since we competed against one
another in NRA high power at Marshall MO, as well as at an occasional rendezvous.
Just figured out, for sure, who you were when you mentioned Ole Grizz patch lube.
I was just beginning to attend rendezvous, and my service rifle scores weren't
anything
to write home about, so you probably don't remember me, but anyway...

I agree with everything you said, so I usually leave my guns loaded through Mo deer
season, unless I have something to  shoot at. ;-) Since I shoot flinters, I plug the
vent
with a feather, and leave the gun on an enclosed porch, locked in the Jeep, or in an
unheated tent to prevent condensation from forming in the bore due to temperature
changes.

One year, I hunted for two days in frosty, misty, weather, and in snow the
third day. As I crawled out from under a huge cedar tree at the end of the day, quite
a
large amount of snow fell right smack dab on the barrel/lock of the rifle. Wiped it
off
pretty quick, and reprimed, hunted my way back to the house, and cleared the gun
before going inside.  She went off after only a short ppfffffft.  Hit the gong dead
center
too. That was in my younger days when I did quite a bit of shooting, so the hang fire
didn't bother me the least bit. ;-)

My last post was a response to someone who ask how often the old timers cleaned
their guns. I only answered with results of my research, but if my firelock misfires,
I'm only out some fresh meat, and not my life. If put in the same circumstances of
life and death, I would probably clean and recharge every evening too, assuming
that particular gun was fired earlier that day. The author didn't say.  I'm sure the
powder and ball were saved and re-used at some point, but nothing was said about
that.

Remember, the loads were drawn, not fired at the end of the day. Saves powder,
and ball, and won't alert the savages to your position.
Your Humble Servant
  J.D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:25:05 -0600
From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: patch lubes

> >I've not seen evidence they used much of anything else?  I have seen a few
> >ledger entries for grease by the keg and barrel, usually listed under rations,
> >other than that, a few small quantities of specialty oils and waxes. like
> >sweet oil and sealing wax, on trade lists.  I've never seen patch lube or gun oil
> >mentioned pre-1840.
>

Sweet oil, known today as olive oil was, at that time used as a lubricant. Since
my research is primarily limited to the colonial period,  I can't say when olive oil
began to be used for food preparation, but I have not seen any reference to sweet
oil being used for anything other than a lubricant in the colonial period. Patch lube?

Gun lube, yes. I have  seen several references to oiling guns with sweet oil.

Olive oil blended with bees wax makes a pretty good wood and metal preservative,
leather dressing and water proofing, as well as a pretty good hand cream and lip balm,

makes a decent emergency fire starter, and it is edible, in a pinch. OK, so I'm  a
wuss,
but my hands are soft, and my lips aren't chapped, and I'm warm and well fed.  <LOL>

Your Servant
  J.D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:06:42 -0600
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

Dave,
  One pupose of the wax was to keep the lube from turning to liquid during
warm weather.  My guess is they applied their lube to the patching material
in various ways.  Either applying it to the patching cold or melted,
soaking the material in the melted lube.  It is my understanding that they
did carry lubed patches in the patch boxes, and most certainly carried them
in their hunting bags.  As far as precut or patching srtips or just a peice
of lubed material, I think it was a matter of personal preference.
Remember there were no hard fast rules concerning such things.
  As for beeswax, it is some pretty amazing stuff.  I can't explain what it
does to the inside of a gun barrel, but I really like what it does.  It
tends to seal the pores of the metal and it does a fine job of preventing
rust problems.
Pendleton

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:45 PM
>
> John Kramer writes:
>
> > Anybody want a project?  I already got enough I'm behind on.  I would
be
> >  willing to help in defining testing criteria and methodology.
Determine
> what
> >  was really the best of what they had to work with, not what they could
have
> >  possibly done given broader trade and commerce than actually existed.
I
> > know how they were rated in the early nineteenth century, I know how I
rate
> them,
> >  and I am familiar with a few of the many ways the materials were used
to
> >  specific purpose.  I could help someone get started.
>
> John,
> I will take you up on your offer, but in a very narrow sense.  Last fall,
I
> saved all the hard tallow from the rump area of our fat eastern
whitetails for
> this very purpose.  I rendered and clarified it and ended up with about a
> quart of deer tallow.  I also have a large supply of beeswax.
>
> Why would they mix tallow and beeswax?  What purpose does the addition of
the
> wax serve?  Was it more of a waterproofing agent for use generally, and
used
> incidentally as a patch lube.  Treating a wooden stock with the mixture
might
> have some preservative effect on the wood, and it could also be used on
> mocassins and other leather items.
>
> However, this lube thing raises more questions than I have seen answers
for.
> a.  If they carried and used it, where did they carry it?  Not a lot of
the
> guns of the period had tallow holes in the stock
> b.  How was it applied to the patches?  Did they soak patch material in
it
> while it was hot, and then carry the patch material around?  Did they
carry it
> in a tin and rub the patch in it when loading?
> c.  Did they cut up a bunch of lubed precuts and carry them in their
shooting
> bag?
> d.  Did they carry lubed patch material in the patchbox of the gun?
> e.  Did they even use lube on their patches since a lot of them carried
> smoothbores which they didn't patch?
>
> I can think of 20 or 30 more questions that I have never seen documented
> answers for.  We all know how we do it today.  Just how did they do it
then?
>
> Dave Kanger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:52:06 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube OT

If you speak of the land of sagebrush, bottomless mud and bleak mineral m=
ines
- --  a long way from nowhere - no.  Quite a ways east of there.

Or do you speak of the fur trade era rapscallion Senator from here.

John...


At 02:09 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote:
>=A0=A0 >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
>=A0=A0 >Are you sure?=A0 He's slicker than snake snot.=A0
>=A0=A0 >John...
>Hey John T.,sounds like your in bentonite country!
>

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:42:38 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

Dave,

Good Questions!  I ain't got all the answers.  There is a bunch we don't
really
know about grease.  Deer tallow ought to work fine.

I suspect the methods were as varied as the individuals and there may hav=
e
even
been schools of thought debated, but never recorded, over their fires.  H=
ow
much of the fire talk we have is recorded?

At least some if not all the methods you suggest were used by someone.  I=
've
carried strips of pre-lubed patch material for years, I have some 20+ yea=
r old
sperm oiled that I'd still use.  I patch my smoothbore cause it shoots
better.=20
I found carrying pre-cut patches buried in my bag inconvenient.  Strips
hanging
from the straps of the bag was easier to deal with.  I've always got a sh=
arp
knife handy to whack off a hunk.

The wax was primarily used as a thickener to ease application and transpo=
rt.=20
In waterproofing it will resist water a little longer than oil alone and =
stand
more to the surface.  Wax and oil are similar and sympathetic, chemically=
.=20
Would keep the surface covered better than plain oil in long storage.

It could have been transported in hollowed wood canteens like bait boxes.=
  It
keeps well in a small tin.  They didn't need to carry much around with th=
em,
there was always more every time they cooked or passed by the company mes=
s.
 If
they needed a lot it was available when they needed it.

I'm not sure trappers had a lot of beeswax to work with.  The honey gathe=
rs
were working as far West as Independence, MO, by 1830 --- their produce w=
as
being shipped east along with bear oil for hair pomade.  The trappers mig=
ht
have found and raided a hive?  Primarily I think they used raw and render=
ed
fat
from whatever they'd just killed when they needed it.  They may have had
favorites they'd carry a little of for their gun?  Wouldn't have been rea=
lly
necessary to always carry.

Lots more questions than answers.  Let me know if I can help with your
project.  You will learn something.  I'll be interested to hear what.

Searches on Dean's web site for grease, greece, oil, tallow and more brin=
g up
impressive listings of hits and some surprising misses.  It's a good plac=
e to
start.  Some will raise more questions.  I'm finding it a handy tool for
topical searching over a large body of excellent source materials. =20

Good luck with your project.

John...



At 06:45 PM 3/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>John Kramer writes:
>
>> Anybody want a project?=A0 I already got enough I'm behind on.=A0 I wo=
uld be
>>=A0 willing to help in defining testing criteria and methodology.=A0 De=
termine
>what
>>=A0 was really the best of what they had to work with, not what they co=
uld
have
>>=A0 possibly done given broader trade and commerce than actually existe=
d.=A0 I=20
>> know how they were rated in the early nineteenth century, I know how I=
 rate
>them,
>>=A0 and I am familiar with a few of the many ways the materials were us=
ed to
>>=A0 specific purpose.=A0 I could help someone get started.
>
>John,
>I will take you up on your offer, but in a very narrow sense.=A0 Last fa=
ll, I
>saved all the hard tallow from the rump area of our fat eastern whitetai=
ls
for
>this very purpose.=A0 I rendered and clarified it and ended up with abou=
t a
>quart of deer tallow.=A0 I also have a large supply of beeswax.=A0=20
>
>Why would they mix tallow and beeswax?=A0 What purpose does the addition=
 of the
>wax serve?=A0 Was it more of a waterproofing agent for use generally, an=
d used
>incidentally as a patch lube.=A0 Treating a wooden stock with the mixtur=
e might
>have some preservative effect on the wood, and it could also be used on
>mocassins and other leather items.
>
>However, this lube thing raises more questions than I have seen answers =
for.
>a.=A0 If they carried and used it, where did they carry it?=A0 Not a lot=
 of the
>guns of the period had tallow holes in the stock
>b.=A0 How was it applied to the patches?=A0 Did they soak patch material=
 in it
>while it was hot, and then carry the patch material around?=A0 Did they
carry it
>in a tin and rub the patch in it when loading?
>c.=A0 Did they cut up a bunch of lubed precuts and carry them in their s=
hooting
>bag?
>d.=A0 Did they carry lubed patch material in the patchbox of the gun?
>e.=A0 Did they even use lube on their patches since a lot of them carrie=
d
>smoothbores which they didn't patch?
>
>I can think of 20 or 30 more questions that I have never seen documented
>answers for.=A0 We all know how we do it today.=A0 Just how did they do =
it then?
>
>Dave Kanger
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:54:21 -0700
From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

Pendleton ,

Doesn't the wax buildup on the inside of the barrel, similar to the way
fouling builds up, making each shot harder to load?

Ron

>As for beeswax, it is some pretty amazing stuff.  I can't explain what it
>does to the inside of a gun barrel, but I really like what it does.  It
>tends to seal the pores of the metal and it does a fine job of preventing
>rust problems.

>Pendleton

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:58:39 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re:wabbit fur

I heard that it takes about 100 rabbit skins to make a woven-strip blanket.
Given that the strips of fur curl over themselves and therefore cover less
area than flat-sewn skins, and you would want them fairly tightly woven to
keep out the wind, this seems reasonable (a patchwork quilt of 1-foot skins
would require 49 skins to cover 7 x 7 feet).
YMOS
Pat Quilter
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Dearing [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 8:23 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:wabbit fur





>
>
>
> >The blankets were strips of fine rabbit woven like you would make an  old
blanket.
> >There are warp and weft.  Mostly popular with the Southwest Indians.  I
have made 4
> >of these and they are very comfortable and warm.  Also very durable
compared to just
> >sewing large pieces of rabbit fur together.

These rabbit skin robes were also popular in the Northeast...anywhere it got
cold, as a
matter of fact.  I understand that skins taken in the middle of the winter
won't shed
nearly
as bad as those taken in late winter, or so I'm told. I'm also told that
rabbit robes
are too
warm to use above 20 degrees F.

Any truth to this? Also, how many skins are needed to make a three point
size robe, and
do you make them for sale?  <sheepish grin>       Thanks          J.D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:31:41 -0800
From: Barbara Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tallow and Beeswax - Not for Patch Lube!

Dave,

The reason beewswax was mixed with Tallow is not for Patch Lube!  This
was a common mixture for candles.  Tallow candles melt too fast.
Beeswax candles are too dear (expensive).  Best tallow to use is Sheep
(pork goes rancid too fast, cow a bit soft, no documentation on deer).
Thus, beeswax and sheep combo offered by Dixie would be very appropriate
for use as candling, and if you gotta candle in your shooting bag,
you've got lube!

I have NO idea how it was used, as I am very new to the shooting end of
this calling (shot my first flinter last Saturday).  I do know a bit
about the history of candlemaking.  And I know that candles were a cheap
by-product of sheep raising, so cheap that only those in the remotest
areas would bother to make their own candles, when they could trade for
a higher quality product for very little outlay in cash or trade goods.
We have documentation for mid-19th century at HBC Fort Nisqually about
just such production. We're not talking about some little old lady
dipping a few candles, we're talking about a large-scale operation
located in the Fort's slaughterhouse.

Finally, I've heard that a trapper will always carry a candle in his
shooting bag.  I assumed it was for fire starting and emergency
lighting.  Perhaps lube as well?

YMDS
- -Tassee

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:34:49 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's last stand

Would anyone out there know if any archaeological work was or is in
progress to discover Jed Smith's grave or burial site?  Near Santa Fe?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:44:36 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: John "Jeremiah" Johnston

- --WebTV-Mail-1545238676-1579
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit


- --WebTV-Mail-1545238676-1579
Content-Disposition: Inline
Content-Type: Message/RFC822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

X-WebTV-Signature: 1
    ETAsAhRorryRQxhA0wSDtSByGBYWjLQC9wIUPTPStGRwZczwQ0JNqMN/kaC6mqI=
From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:51:12 -0500 (EST)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: John "Jeremiah" Johnston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Content-Disposition: Inline
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

Sir:
(Referencing a posted message of 13 Aug 1996)
would be interested in the complete details on JJ's reburial story
and/or ceremony, and the exact writing enscribed on memorial plaque, if
you or some other authority can help out this pilgrim.Thankee kindly.

jdm


- --WebTV-Mail-1545238676-1579--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:16:29 +1200
From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: James Bond

Just passing,
James Bond never shot anything, He was in fact an author on a book on native
birds of Jamaica. That book just happened to be sitting on a table at a
place called the gap at worlds end where Ian Fleming was writing his first
novel and looking for a name for the hero.
Kia Ora
Big Bear
In windy warm Marlborough New Zealand.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:05:45 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's last stand

By archaeological work do you mean the discovery and removal of remains, or
the excavation,artifact collection and documentation?  Removal of historic
remains requires just cause, and the blessing of the Med Examiners Office.
And, if he has any Native American bloodline, the NAGPRA (Native American
Grave Repatriation Act) laws kick in.   Gee, can you fill me in...is there
reason to believe he is buried in a specific place?  I can ask around the
local contractors and at the University..

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:09:32 -0800 (PST)
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RIFLING MACHINE

Pendelton,

Back a few years ago there was an excellent series in the Muzzleloader
Magazine about an early gunmaker.  When I get a chance I'll try and locate
it for you, but it went into great detail about how the guns were made by
hand.  I think it described the barrel making machine.

Give me about a week and I'll see what I can find.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 07:49 PM 3/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Where can I get detailed drawings of a rifling machine?  Some of us have a
>wild hair to build our own gun barrels.  Might want to sell one someday you
>can't ever tell.
>Pendleton
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:06:12 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: patch lubes

J.D.,

Sweet oil has been a part of trade longer than anyone has been keeping
records.  It was and is a premium product revered throughout the centurie=
s.
 At
one time it was considered one of the great gifts from God.

Sweet oil's not bad for lubricant- but when it oxidizes (drys) it will le=
ave a
gummy coating.=A0 Several references suggest it for lubrication on tools =
and
such.=A0 Some get pretty gummed up from it with lack of use, it clings we=
ll to
metal surfaces.=A0 Over time it could gum up a lock if not regularly clea=
ned and
replenished.

I have used it for lubrication of small gears as well as bearings and rac=
es on
traditional tools like a treadle turning bench; if the tool is used regul=
arly
it works great.  If the tool remains idle for long periods of time it get=
s
gummy and takes a while to run in again.  It cleans up pretty well.  It w=
ill
protect from rust for long periods.

The small quantities I've seen attributed to the Rocky mountain fur trade
indicate it was probably used more in medicine than food or gun lube.=A0
Drugstores still sell small quantities for the same purposes.

It is one specialty oil which was certainly there (albeit in limited quan=
tity)
and far from the worst choice for all the uses you mention.  It was not c=
heap
during the period.  It was imported.  It was revered early on, as trade g=
rew
and relative cost dropped it was adapted to more and more uses.

I have a bottle in the kitchen and the shop.  Good stuff.

John...


At 08:25 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>> >I've not seen evidence they used much of anything else?=A0 I have see=
n a few
>> >ledger entries for grease by the keg and barrel, usually listed under
rations,
>> >other than that, a few small quantities of specialty oils and waxes. =
like
>> >sweet oil and sealing wax, on trade lists.=A0 I've never seen patch l=
ube or
gun oil
>> >mentioned pre-1840.
>>
>
>Sweet oil, known today as olive oil was, at that time used as a lubrican=
t.
Since
>my research is primarily limited to the colonial period,=A0 I can't say =
when
olive oil
>began to be used for food preparation, but I have not seen any reference=
 to
sweet
>oil being used for anything other than a lubricant in the colonial perio=
d.
Patch lube?
>
>Gun lube, yes. I have=A0 seen several references to oiling guns with swe=
et oil.
>
>Olive oil blended with bees wax makes a pretty good wood and metal
preservative,
>leather dressing and water proofing, as well as a pretty good hand cream=
 and
lip balm,
>
>makes a decent emergency fire starter, and it is edible, in a pinch. OK,=
 so
I'm=A0 a
>wuss,
>but my hands are soft, and my lips aren't chapped, and I'm warm and well
fed.=A0
<LOL>
>
>Your Servant
>=A0 J.D.
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #266
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