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hist_text-digest        Monday, March 22 1999        Volume 01 : Number 265




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:41:34 -0800
From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

I agree as well.  Manufactured lubes were created for the "firing line", military
or sporting.  I imagine such lubes appeal to those who shoot 20-30 shots on a
modern walk-through.

Larry Huber

Ratcliff wrote:

> Got to agree with you when you're right, John.  Got to.
> Lanney
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 6:53 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
>
> "Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
>
> Are you sure? He's slicker than snake snot.
>
> I am really having trouble believing anyone before 1930 spent much time
> sitting
> around chatting up the fine qualities of some mysterious flocum called X?X?X?
> patch lube. I don't think the conversation really heated up until after 1970.
>
> I've never encountered any early nineteenth century commercial offerings or
> specific recipes for patch lube.  There may be some; at best it was uncommon.
>
> Back when, back East, folks used a lot of blended tallow and beeswax (often
> with a little of various minerals, trees, critters, plants and oils) for just
> about everything. Most common folks had some sort of oil or grease and
> perhaps
> any of several other things. Most folks in the mountains weren't making up
> much in the way of fancy concoctions. Especially if the ingredients cost
> money.
>
> No mountain man in his right mind would waste good whiskey and squaw money on
> something always available free -- some sort of grease, oil or fat. It's
> plumb
> easy to render out the little you need. Maybe include a few leaves or berries
> to improve the smell, but not likely. We all ought to be carrying around a
> bait box. That'd be real fragrant on a hot summer day.  I doubt any of the
> "Beaver" men much cared about something smelling nice.
>
> Warn't they called spit patches? Hasn't anyone just tried chewing on the end
> of a rag? It works pretty damn well. (I've been composing this over the past
> few days and finally we have the first mention of spit from Dennis Fisher.
> Thanks.
>
> P.S. Paraffin is a modern petroleum wax.
>
> The last time we had this discussion all kinds of modern witches brews were
> being touted for greasing and cleaning.
>
> I still maintain the old timers used whatever grease they had available (more
> likely than not rendered from a bear's belly, a beaver's tail or a buffalo's
> hump).
>
> They may have mixed it with a little castor to keep their scent down and leave
> a tantalizing trail for furry gold.  Whatever needed grease probably got a
> coat
> of what they had.  Gun, Moc's whatever.
>
> For those that prefer not to render their own fat. The finest gun, or any
> other, grease of the day was sperm oil. The best natural substitute for sperm
> oil today is jojoba oil. This is one case where I suggest using the
> substitute
> due to the current shortage of whales. I just soak patches long ahead of time
> and they always seem to work pretty good. It's those old nasty dirty
> strips of
> rag tied to my shooting bag, where they're handy. Carry a few strips dry: to
> chew and swab with, handy for char.  If you ain't got spit you're close to
> trouble.
>
> Pure neatsfoot (NOT COMPOUNDED) oil, is a good alternative for those without
> bear oil or other rendered fat for use on leather.  Jojoba is expensive to use
> on leather.  Neatsfoot will work on patches too.
>
> Read the list archive for my suggestion on period gun cleaning solvent. It's
> free. It requires no extra packaging. Comes in its own container. Handy
> dispenser. Everybody has a ready supply, or they die. Water works.
>
> The usual excuse is folks want to protect the investment they made in their
> fancy smoke pole, or they want to stand on a firing line and shoot all day
> without swabbing the bore. These are pursuits beyond the scope of what
> traditionalists are about.
>
> Back then their rifles and fusils cost them a higher percentage of their
> annual
> earnings than ours cost today, they had to make do with what was available.
> Their life depended on whether or not their weapon worked. They survived so
> what they did must have worked well enough.
>
> If we are to learn from what they knew; we must do what they did --- as much
> the same way --- as the centuries allow.
>
> Jim Bridger might have used it if he had it --- but he didn't!
>
> Traditional/primitive/authentic/historic/period correct is more about how you
> do things, than exactly how you look. It is a mind set. We must compromise
> enough doing without those things no longer available and those now necessary
> to preserve life, there is rare need to resort to modernism when you are
> living
> history.
>
> Often we must now choose something less common than back then; because that
> most often then used is now forbade us, for various survival, official or
> commercial reasons. It may be something as simple as the second best oil
> or it
> may require something then unknown, i.e., high tech water filters to
> protect us
> from the many poisons modern civilization has strewn about.
>
> Those simple things everyone did for themselves can still be done, each
> teaches
> something. There is always some period way or period alternative to most
> everything we use. The few forced compromises are too many.
>
> I'm sure lube is a hot topic amongst the paper puncher crowd. In the Rocky
> Mountains of the early nineteenth century paper was too precious a
> commodity to
> waste on such foolishness.
>
> I have been speaking to those who regularly use, mostly, one gun. The
> mountain
> men. Those who seriously seek learning all: the old ways have to teach.
>
> For those maintaining collections of rarely used weapons there is another
> traditional method which can dependably prevent rust over long storage in
> humid
> or dry areas. It enriches and preserves the wood and protects the metal.
> After one or two annual treatments it should not require more than a dry swab
> dusting of the bore every year or so and regular dry cotton cloth dusting of
> the surface. It is efficacious on smokepoles used everyday as well. Contact
> me off-line for more information.
> I try not to peddle here.
>
> John...
>
> John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
> Kramer's Best Antique Improver
> >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
> >>>As good as old!<<<
>
> <http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
> mail to: <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:01:52 -0800
From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinware

Silly Kiwi,

   Make haste to your nearest sutler or catalog and for god sake get yourself
some earthenware tankards or cups, women folk make war over burned lips, many
deaths...

Best regards,

Terry Smith

The Brooks wrote:

> Morning all,
> While on the subject, how do you drink out of a tin cup without it burning
> your lips off as the tin transfers the heat something wicked? Is there some
> secret to it or do you just have to wait for your tea or coffee to cool down
> which is the technique that I use at present. I had thought of putting a
> band aid at the drinking point. Any comments?
> Kia Ora
> Big Bear
> In  Sun Rising overcast Marlborough New Zealand.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:16:06 -0500
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question

Jim,

You will want to take a look at David J. Weber, THE TAOS TRAPPERS, available
in paperback from the University of Oklahoma Press. Weber discusses
relations between trappers and Apaches in a number of places in this
excellent book.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 1999 10:05 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question


> Hello the list,
>     While I know later on Kit Carson dealt with the Apache as an Indian
Agent
> (1857 or so), was there any earlier interaction between the Apache and
south
> western Mountain Men during the fur trade era? If so, any trading?
>     I haven't come across any references in either Apache history or my
> limited shelf of mountain man books, but Taos is right there where they
were.
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Jim
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:40:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question

Jim,

Bill Williams had a run in with them in the white mountains. According to
Hafen, they relieved him of all his goods and sent him walking back to
Zuni. You may also want to read The narratives of James Ohio Pattie. Pattie
and his father had some relations with them at the Santa Rita copper mines.

Hope this helps

Vic

>Hello the list,
>    While I know later on Kit Carson dealt with the Apache as an Indian Agent
>(1857 or so), was there any earlier interaction between the Apache and south
>western Mountain Men during the fur trade era? If so, any trading?
>    I haven't come across any references in either Apache history or my
>limited shelf of mountain man books, but Taos is right there where they were.
>
>Thanks for your time,
>Jim


Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:09:28 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

Lanney,

I agree with what you stated on lubes, [ "firing line", military or
sporting ]. When still living near Estes Park CO we had a monthly shoot that
became very popular with up to 40-50 shooters, good prizes, etc.

At one shoot a pair of gentlemen drove in and parked their Bentley sedan,
that causes a lot of looks. They came up and asked "if they could partake in
the shooting event." That was where we should have been tipped off, a pair
of ringers. They were shooting original cased English Sporting rifles, very
fancy and they had a pre-mixed lube that had a manufacture date of 1881.
From the auto, weapons and dress these blooks were no run of the mill
shooters, after a few matches some side money was wagered and the mighty
mountainmen had their butts kicked royally by some very fine shooting.

After the days events had come to an end, I was given a sample of the lube
and the address of the firm in London that produced this lube from 1881 to
date. will have to dig up address for those interested.

Oh, after several other shooting events we got to know Lord Bradburn and his
man James, years later we read about the gentlemen that lived near Estes
Park. Turns out Lord Bradburn was the person that Flemming wrote about
during World War II, James Bond.  Brother did that club have fun running
around telling other buckskinners they had their butts kicked by James Bond
in a shooting match.  I'm sure that several on this list will remember Lord
Bradburn and the Buckhorn Skinners of Masonville CO.

The real funny thing was Charles E.Hanson Jr. was a member of that club and
knew all about the lube and the guns the gentlemen were shooting and wasn't
surprised of who they were, he said "as one watching I knew they were both
very professional in the handling of weapons and themselves".

Later

Buck
________________________________-
- -----Original Message-----
From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube


>I agree as well.  Manufactured lubes were created for the "firing line",
military
>or sporting.  I imagine such lubes appeal to those who shoot 20-30 shots on
a
>modern walk-through.
>
>Larry Huber
>
>Ratcliff wrote:
>
>> Got to agree with you when you're right, John.  Got to.
>> Lanney
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 6:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube
>>
>> "Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
>>
>> Are you sure? He's slicker than snake snot.
>>
>> I am really having trouble believing anyone before 1930 spent much time
>> sitting
>> around chatting up the fine qualities of some mysterious flocum called
X?X?X?
>> patch lube. I don't think the conversation really heated up until after
1970.
>>
>> I've never encountered any early nineteenth century commercial offerings
or
>> specific recipes for patch lube.  There may be some; at best it was
uncommon.
>>
>> Back when, back East, folks used a lot of blended tallow and beeswax
(often
>> with a little of various minerals, trees, critters, plants and oils) for
just
>> about everything. Most common folks had some sort of oil or grease and
>> perhaps
>> any of several other things. Most folks in the mountains weren't making
up
>> much in the way of fancy concoctions. Especially if the ingredients cost
>> money.
>>
>> No mountain man in his right mind would waste good whiskey and squaw
money on
>> something always available free -- some sort of grease, oil or fat. It's
>> plumb
>> easy to render out the little you need. Maybe include a few leaves or
berries
>> to improve the smell, but not likely. We all ought to be carrying around
a
>> bait box. That'd be real fragrant on a hot summer day.  I doubt any of
the
>> "Beaver" men much cared about something smelling nice.
>>
>> Warn't they called spit patches? Hasn't anyone just tried chewing on the
end
>> of a rag? It works pretty damn well. (I've been composing this over the
past
>> few days and finally we have the first mention of spit from Dennis
Fisher.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> P.S. Paraffin is a modern petroleum wax.
>>
>> The last time we had this discussion all kinds of modern witches brews
were
>> being touted for greasing and cleaning.
>>
>> I still maintain the old timers used whatever grease they had available
(more
>> likely than not rendered from a bear's belly, a beaver's tail or a
buffalo's
>> hump).
>>
>> They may have mixed it with a little castor to keep their scent down and
leave
>> a tantalizing trail for furry gold.  Whatever needed grease probably got
a
>> coat
>> of what they had.  Gun, Moc's whatever.
>>
>> For those that prefer not to render their own fat. The finest gun, or any
>> other, grease of the day was sperm oil. The best natural substitute for
sperm
>> oil today is jojoba oil. This is one case where I suggest using the
>> substitute
>> due to the current shortage of whales. I just soak patches long ahead of
time
>> and they always seem to work pretty good. It's those old nasty dirty
>> strips of
>> rag tied to my shooting bag, where they're handy. Carry a few strips dry:
to
>> chew and swab with, handy for char.  If you ain't got spit you're close
to
>> trouble.
>>
>> Pure neatsfoot (NOT COMPOUNDED) oil, is a good alternative for those
without
>> bear oil or other rendered fat for use on leather.  Jojoba is expensive
to use
>> on leather.  Neatsfoot will work on patches too.
>>
>> Read the list archive for my suggestion on period gun cleaning solvent.
It's
>> free. It requires no extra packaging. Comes in its own container. Handy
>> dispenser. Everybody has a ready supply, or they die. Water works.
>>
>> The usual excuse is folks want to protect the investment they made in
their
>> fancy smoke pole, or they want to stand on a firing line and shoot all
day
>> without swabbing the bore. These are pursuits beyond the scope of what
>> traditionalists are about.
>>
>> Back then their rifles and fusils cost them a higher percentage of their
>> annual
>> earnings than ours cost today, they had to make do with what was
available.
>> Their life depended on whether or not their weapon worked. They survived
so
>> what they did must have worked well enough.
>>
>> If we are to learn from what they knew; we must do what they did --- as
much
>> the same way --- as the centuries allow.
>>
>> Jim Bridger might have used it if he had it --- but he didn't!
>>
>> Traditional/primitive/authentic/historic/period correct is more about how
you
>> do things, than exactly how you look. It is a mind set. We must
compromise
>> enough doing without those things no longer available and those now
necessary
>> to preserve life, there is rare need to resort to modernism when you are
>> living
>> history.
>>
>> Often we must now choose something less common than back then; because
that
>> most often then used is now forbade us, for various survival, official or
>> commercial reasons. It may be something as simple as the second best oil
>> or it
>> may require something then unknown, i.e., high tech water filters to
>> protect us
>> from the many poisons modern civilization has strewn about.
>>
>> Those simple things everyone did for themselves can still be done, each
>> teaches
>> something. There is always some period way or period alternative to most
>> everything we use. The few forced compromises are too many.
>>
>> I'm sure lube is a hot topic amongst the paper puncher crowd. In the
Rocky
>> Mountains of the early nineteenth century paper was too precious a
>> commodity to
>> waste on such foolishness.
>>
>> I have been speaking to those who regularly use, mostly, one gun. The
>> mountain
>> men. Those who seriously seek learning all: the old ways have to teach.
>>
>> For those maintaining collections of rarely used weapons there is another
>> traditional method which can dependably prevent rust over long storage in
>> humid
>> or dry areas. It enriches and preserves the wood and protects the metal.
>> After one or two annual treatments it should not require more than a dry
swab
>> dusting of the bore every year or so and regular dry cotton cloth dusting
of
>> the surface. It is efficacious on smokepoles used everyday as well.
Contact
>> me off-line for more information.
>> I try not to peddle here.
>>
>> John...
>>
>> John T. Kramer, maker of:
>>
>> Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>> >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>> >>>As good as old!<<<
>>
>> <http://www.kramerize.com/>
>>
>> mail to: <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:15:39 -0700
From: "Charlie P. Webb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:history channel--the mountain man

Howdy all,
In response to Hawks comments, I too think the Mountain Men
show was great.  Yes, there were some boo boo's, showing the close
up of a smooth bore and calling it a rifle caused a chuckle, but to
me I took it as entertainment and don't plan to modify my outfit
or accoutrements to comply with anything shown in the film.  I do
believe that our own HB Crawford did an outstanding job with his
input.  I personally would have liked to have seen and heard more
of his input than some that the editors choose to show. In my
estimation "GOOD JOB" Henry!!!  I also saw some other familiar
faces which contributed to my enjoyment of the production.  Speaking
only for myself, I think that the release time for this production
was well choosen, as there are many of us that need a break from
the monotony of  "Lodge Feaver"  and also need a kick in the pants
to finish up those winter projects cause  ronnievou is just around
the corner.  For me, the movie was fun, perhaps not not gospel but
fun anyway.  I could have watched another couple of hours without
even thinking of that delicious indian treat popping corn.
Respectfully,
C Webb

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:02:12 -0700
From: David & Evelyn Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question

You may also want to look at _Savage Scene: The Life and Times of the
Mountain man Jim Kirker_ by William Cochran McGaw, High Lonesome Books,
1972. Kirker was a notorious scalp hunter and was offered $200 per scalp
by the Mexican government.

Hope this helps,
David

- --
David & Evelyn Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
505.829.3212
email:[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:20:58 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question

Wouldn't you know it, I lent the book I wanted to tell ya about to a
neighbor.  The book is called Life among the Apache Indians.  It is a diary
of a gent who traded, lived along side of and fought the apache indians.  I
have not yet read the book but it looked pretty good.  If you are interested
let me know and I will call the guy I lent it to and get all the pert. info
for you.

Frank V. Rago





At 11:02 AM 3/22/99 -0700, you wrote:
>You may also want to look at _Savage Scene: The Life and Times of the
>Mountain man Jim Kirker_ by William Cochran McGaw, High Lonesome Books,
>1972. Kirker was a notorious scalp hunter and was offered $200 per scalp
>by the Mexican government.
>
>Hope this helps,
>David
>
>--
>David & Evelyn Mullen
>202 Mesa Verde
>Jemez Springs, NM 87025
>505.829.3212
>email:[e-mail]
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:03:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apache/Fur trade contact question

get a copy of "Apache Wars"  a illustrated battel history BY e. Lesley
reedstron IBSN 1-56619-959-X at barns and nobel---good reference book
also look at "The Apache"  by mall---dont have my copy handy but it is
like his book "Mystic warriers of the plains" except it is only about the
apache  both books cover the time period in question and would give you
more info than you can absorb in a week's reading---especially the one
written by Moll.

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:20:58 -0500 (EST) [e-mail] writes:
>
>Frank V. Rago
>
>
>
>
>
>At 11:02 AM 3/22/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>You may also want to look at _Savage Scene: The Life and Times of the
>>Mountain man Jim Kirker_ by William Cochran McGaw, High

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:09:59 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

   >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube"
   >Are you sure?á He's slicker than snake snot.á
   >John...
Hey John T.,sounds like your in bentonite country!

Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:21:52 -0600
From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

>
> >How long do you suppose a loaded muzzleloader was carried before it was
> >discharged and loaded fresh? If a man's life depended on his rifle firing,
> >it would seem he would have to consider dampness, condensation, etc. so
> >there would be some limit to the dependability of a loaded rifle.
>

I have seen many references to colonial period frontiersmen drawing their loads,
cleaning and recharging their pieces each evening.  I can only assume that this
procedure was followed into the period of the Rocky Mtn. fur trade.   J.D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:13:11 +1200
From: "The Brooks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tinware

Terry,   Replied;


>Silly Kiwi,
>
>   Make haste to your nearest sutler or catalog and for god sake get
yourself
>some earthenware tankards or cups, women folk make war over burned lips,
many
>deaths...


I bought it from Col Williamsburg.. it did look so neat sitting there......
Have just come back from a Rondy in the mountains and I tried the band aid
idea...Might look silly and might not be period correct BUT IT WORKS!!

"Many Deaths"..... Sounds like a good A.K.A. for some women folk that I
know.....Just kidding Ladies

Kia Ora
Big Bear
In warm and windy Marlborough New Zealand.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:19:27 -0800
From: Pat Laughlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

Think you are correct on that.  Sure wouldn't want a damp load if my life depended
on it. How long do you think they would have left a load in??  I'd like to know as
the guys seem to load an shoot out here.

John Dearing wrote:

> >
> > >How long do you suppose a loaded muzzleloader was carried before it was
> > >discharged and loaded fresh? If a man's life depended on his rifle firing,
> > >it would seem he would have to consider dampness, condensation, etc. so
> > >there would be some limit to the dependability of a loaded rifle.
> >
>
> I have seen many references to colonial period frontiersmen drawing their loads,
> cleaning and recharging their pieces each evening.  I can only assume that this
> procedure was followed into the period of the Rocky Mtn. fur trade.   J.D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:38:56 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

Buck,

Yep, think I remember seeing some, a quick perusal of #142 (my most current
and
only copy) revealed none.

I've seen nothing to convince me they are old - enough.  There weren't any I
felt the need to collect.

Of the 30,000 or so recipes I've collected from original sources; I remember
seeing none for patch lube or gun oil pre-1840.

A pre-1840 Sharps manual?  That's got to be pretty rare.

I wouldn't be surprised if some military manual somewhere had a defined
specification, applicable to the military.  Be nice to know what they thought
was best.

I did notice Dixie offers pre-mixed and component sheep tallow and beeswax --
for sale.  Ought to be just right.  Performance will vary with proportions.
Haven't tried theirs.  Too easy to make, if buying rendered fat just be
sure it
isn't salted.  In one area Dixie suggests a modern brand name vegetable
shortening for lubing late period (for us, at best) revolvers.

The traditional way is to chose a grease which is readily available and
replenish able; and stick with it.  A fat fish will do.  Or there is something
to learn in trying all the period alternatives.

I'd be interested to hear of extensive and varied testing of the several
period
oils and greases on guns and leather and hearing of any performance
differences.

Anybody want a project?  I already got enough I'm behind on.  I would be
willing to help in defining testing criteria and methodology.  Determine what
was really the best of what they had to work with, not what they could have
possibly done given broader trade and commerce than actually existed.  I know
how they were rated in the early nineteenth century, I know how I rate them,
and I am familiar with a few of the many ways the materials were used to
specific purpose.  I could help someone get started.

If I had to guess; beaver fat was the most common grease used by pre-1840
trappers in the Rocky Mountains, Canada to Mexico.  I'm sure they used it for
everything.  I think they probably kept themselves and most everything they
owned slicked down with it.  Inside and out.  If they had a fat cow and needed
grease I'm sure that's what they used.  They used what they had.  It was
something done too insignificant to merit mention.  Everybody did it.  Except
some fancy and catered to folks out wandering around.

I've not seen evidence they used much of anything else?  I have seen a few
ledger entries for grease by the keg and barrel, usually listed under rations,
other than that, a few small quantities of specialty oils and waxes. like
sweet
oil and sealing wax, on trade lists.  I've never seen patch lube or gun oil
mentioned pre-1840.

Old ways can be cheap and are simple.  They were often both back then.  They
can be the same now.

Mountainmen eat beaver!  You can bet on it.  Though they used of all the parts
of the critters taken, they of course didn't use all the parts available.
Just
as the natives didn't use every part of every buffalo killed.  There was too
much byproduct of the harvest for all of it to have been utilized.  They
hunted
other game for variety but the focus of their hunting was beaver.  Meat's
meat.  At the end of a long cold wet day after day, its surprising what tastes
real good.  Especially if you don't have to get up and go find it.

No one wasted real gold money on something abundantly free.  If they had food
they had fat.  If they had beaver they had food.  They used the fat and ate
the
food they had.

They may not have always needed to render the fat.  It may work differently?
Better or worse?  To which purpose?

Simply eating kept them pretty well greased up.  I don't think they spent a
lot
of time thinking about it.

John...


At 07:41 PM 3/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Take a look at old Dixie Gun works catalogs, over the last 25-30 year's
>Turner has had many recipes for patch lube and have seen recipes in several
>Sharpes manuals for their front stuffer's before the breech loader came in.
>
>Buck Conner
>

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:53:18 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Buck Connor's comments

Buck
The post you were replying to was from Laurel Huber, not from me.  It =
was a great post nontheless.  The story sort of belies the notion that =
James Bond always shot a pipsqueak .25 auto.
Lanney

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:44:55 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: carrying loaded rifles

>John Dearing wrote:
>
>> >
>> > >How long do you suppose a loaded muzzleloader was carried before
>it was
>> > >discharged and loaded fresh? If a man's life depended on his
>rifle firing,
>> > >it would seem he would have to consider dampness, condensation,
>etc. so
>> > >there would be some limit to the dependability of a loaded rifle.
>> >
>>
>> I have seen many references to colonial period frontiersmen drawing
>their loads,
>> cleaning and recharging their pieces each evening.  I can only
>assume that this
>> procedure was followed into the period of the Rocky Mtn. fur trade.
> J.D.
>
JD
I may be one of those werd ones(BG) but I have been using and hunting
with my old rifle gun for over 40 years and have loaded it on opening day
of deer season and left the load in it for over a week and have never had
a problem with a misfire---you get that problem when you clean the gun
and dont get all the oil and moisture out---I snap 3 or 4 caps and make
sure the nipple is clear and dry--take a bit of beeswax and wipe around
the nipple and cap her up---seals her up like a suppository rifle and
even when carrying it out in the weather have not had bad hang fires or
those that were noticably to me---you must have a good fitting nipple and
the cap must fit tight---if it doesnt then it truly will draw
moisture---if you were required to reload every day or so look at the
amount of powder you would be using in a years time and look at all the
old guns that are found loaded today---trick is the good fitting nipple
to cap combination---I have to use a knife to remove the cap once i have
installed it---my brother has a flinter which he squirrel hunts with and
he keeps it loaded all the time when he is ready to shoot it he picks the
tough hole and primes it and it always goes off --and fast too---real
dependable--during turkey season I had my trade gun loaded for 4 days
before i shot it and she didn't misfire or hang---You got to know the
capability of your gun--some i have seen just wont keep the charge dry
for a extended period and others you will have no problem with of any
kind---kina like other things---have to know the proper care and feeding
of the animal in question---

most of the guys believe you shold shoot out the load each day and start
over each day--it's really up to you and how you have cared and
maintained that old fire stick---remember if black powder drew as much
moisture as some would have you believe then there would not be such a
thing a black powder supposotory shells---the trick is keep the firestick
dry and free of oil and moisture as much as possibly---have a cows nee
for my flinter and it will go off even in the rain and moist climate-- if
it has dry prime and ther is no moisture in and around the touch
hole---saw dale black fall in the creek with his flint gun and it went
under water---he got up shook it off and shot it was in a match---some of
your flint locks have what is called a waterproof pan---that is where the
frizzen is in full contact to the pan and there is a channel all around
the frizzen and pan so that the moisture can drain away from the pan and
not get on or near the touch hole---the durs egg lock is a good example
of this water proof type pan.  remember everyone has their personal
preference to how long to have a load in a gun but it comes down to
really it's up to you and what your gun likes---

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:45:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: lube

John Kramer writes:

> Anybody want a project?  I already got enough I'm behind on.  I would be
>  willing to help in defining testing criteria and methodology.  Determine
what
>  was really the best of what they had to work with, not what they could have
>  possibly done given broader trade and commerce than actually existed.  I
> know how they were rated in the early nineteenth century, I know how I rate
them,
>  and I am familiar with a few of the many ways the materials were used to
>  specific purpose.  I could help someone get started.

John,
I will take you up on your offer, but in a very narrow sense.  Last fall, I
saved all the hard tallow from the rump area of our fat eastern whitetails for
this very purpose.  I rendered and clarified it and ended up with about a
quart of deer tallow.  I also have a large supply of beeswax.

Why would they mix tallow and beeswax?  What purpose does the addition of the
wax serve?  Was it more of a waterproofing agent for use generally, and used
incidentally as a patch lube.  Treating a wooden stock with the mixture might
have some preservative effect on the wood, and it could also be used on
mocassins and other leather items.

However, this lube thing raises more questions than I have seen answers for.
a.  If they carried and used it, where did they carry it?  Not a lot of the
guns of the period had tallow holes in the stock
b.  How was it applied to the patches?  Did they soak patch material in it
while it was hot, and then carry the patch material around?  Did they carry it
in a tin and rub the patch in it when loading?
c.  Did they cut up a bunch of lubed precuts and carry them in their shooting
bag?
d.  Did they carry lubed patch material in the patchbox of the gun?
e.  Did they even use lube on their patches since a lot of them carried
smoothbores which they didn't patch?

I can think of 20 or 30 more questions that I have never seen documented
answers for.  We all know how we do it today.  Just how did they do it then?

Dave Kanger

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #265
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