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hist_text-digest       Sunday, January 31 1999       Volume 01 : Number 229




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:47:39 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax

Douglas Hepner wrote:

>     I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If
> not I have been cheating for quite some time!
>
> "Dull HawK"

Dull HawK,

What Barry said that got my attention was the part about the juste having a
faint smell of "cleaner" to it, implying that the jute the "gentleman" was
using had been treated with a fire accelerator. As far as using jute as tinder,
I personally see nothing wrong with it. It is a natural plant fiber though it
may be more refined than some flax or linen tow, linen tow comes to us very
course and also very fine as in further refined. Now if the rules for the
contest clearly called for the use of unrefined natural fibers, I would expect
not to be allowed to use a refined product either. Of course, lacing the tinder
with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple. Let's see what Barry has to
say concerning what he was originally talking about. I remain........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:54:17 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40

Gee, if you are veering off a bit towards Santa Fe, why not Taos, center of
the Southwest fur trade?  Smashing place....avoid overspending at the
Pueblo..and try not to laugh at the two-headed goat in the Governor Bent
Museum..

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:54:39 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??

In a message dated 99-01-29 22:10:22 EST, you write:

<< I was thumbing through Track of the Wolf's Catalog, Number 14 this
afternoon and
  started to notice some of their kits showed "Wedges" verses "Pins" to hold
the b
 arrel of a rifle to a stock.  I would expect to find this "Wedge System in
Hawken
 s", but also noticed that "Wedges" were used in their "North Carolina
Tennessee M
 ountain Rifle", and also their "Southern Mountain Rifle", Pages 142-145.
  >>
Usualy wedges were used with a hook breach, & pins were used with a tang
breach.  The reason was the "removability" of the hook breach -- pull ram rod,
wedges, loosten lock bolt, pull cock to "safe" notch, & remove barrel.  With
the tang breech, it's a bit more complicated because you also have to remove
the tang screws & with some of the longer tangs, you have to be very careful
not to bent them.  The tang on one of my rifles is so long you can stick the
breech in a 3 lb coffee can for cleaning & the touch hole doesn't get wet.
Usualy, I use a flush tube on it & only remove the barrel about once or twice
a year for complete oiling & rust prevention.  A lot of the Pennsylvanias used
eustaceon plates with the pins to prevent wood damage, & when installed
properly, to my eye, it's a cleaner look than with the wedges.  These plates
can be any number of shapes, but they were usualy installed with headless
brads -- the holes were countersunk & the brads driven in & peaned over to
fill the countersink, then filed smooth & polished.  When using brass plates &
brads, the brads disappear.  I've even seen brass brads used with silver
plates & after the polishing, it's very dificult to see the brads even with
the color difference.  The plates are usualy inlayed so they're flush with the
wood leaving a totaly smooth surface.  If you're having the lock & other
furnature engraved, a bit of engraving on the eustaceans realy sets the rifle
off.  I'm not saying you CAN'T use wedges with a tang breech, or pins with a
hook breach, but it wasn't the normal way they built rifles back then.

NM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:13:51 -0700
From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax

Are jute rope and sisal rope the same thing?

Ron aka Lonewolf
- ----------
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:47 PM
>
>
>
> Douglas Hepner wrote:
>
> >     I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate?
If
> > not I have been cheating for quite some time!
> >
> > "Dull HawK"
>
> Dull HawK,
>
> What Barry said that got my attention was the part about the juste having
a
> faint smell of "cleaner" to it, implying that the jute the "gentleman"
was
> using had been treated with a fire accelerator. As far as using jute as
tinder,
> I personally see nothing wrong with it. It is a natural plant fiber
though it
> may be more refined than some flax or linen tow, linen tow comes to us
very
> course and also very fine as in further refined. Now if the rules for the
> contest clearly called for the use of unrefined natural fibers, I would
expect
> not to be allowed to use a refined product either. Of course, lacing the
tinder
> with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple. Let's see what Barry
has to
> say concerning what he was originally talking about. I remain........
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> >
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:54:10 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax

Ron,

No.

Ron Chamberlain wrote:

> Are jute rope and sisal rope the same thing?
>
> Ron aka Lonewolf
> --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:56:52 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax

Roger,

When I mentioned the faint smell of "cleaner" on the jute. Go to a craft
store that handles the hanging pot materials, the stuff the "flower
children" of the ' 60's used to weave for their hanging pots of funny
tobacco. If you smell it, you can very faintly smell the odor of a cleaning
agent, like kerosene. It not a natural odor like the unrefined jute or
grasses we know.

I think the few people using this had discovered that the refined jute in
the craft stores had a higher flash point because of the cleaning agent,
over non-refined material, and took advantage of the situtation. At the time
we were lax on the rules for local and state events, the next event we had
to stress "natural material for tinder - only" no refined or altered tinder
(ex. refined jute).

Buck
_____________________-
- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax


>
>
>Douglas Hepner wrote:
>
>>     I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If
>> not I have been cheating for quite some time!
>>
>> "Dull HawK"
>
>Dull HawK,
>
>What Barry said that got my attention was the part about the juste having a
>faint smell of "cleaner" to it, implying that the jute the "gentleman" was
>using had been treated with a fire accelerator. As far as using jute as
tinder,
>I personally see nothing wrong with it. It is a natural plant fiber though
it
>may be more refined than some flax or linen tow, linen tow comes to us very
>course and also very fine as in further refined. Now if the rules for the
>contest clearly called for the use of unrefined natural fibers, I would
expect
>not to be allowed to use a refined product either. Of course, lacing the
tinder
>with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple. Let's see what Barry has
to
>say concerning what he was originally talking about. I remain........
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 99 10:00:12 -0700
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40

What part of Oklahoma are you headed to?  My old home state.  Don

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

RR1LA wrote:
>I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
>recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have
Meteor
>Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will
Rogers
>Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
appreciated.
>Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>
>
>
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>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 02:35:21 -0600
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE

Roger,
  Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and did
not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it would
burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use
tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of
ways to accomplish, but I won't get into  them here. [ no need in
encouraging such practices]  Even jute won't literally explode into flames
every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always
specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can
get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants. I
think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our
forefathers used which was whatever was at hand.
  A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a
new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material. They
work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find it
catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns into
a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it.
Pendleton

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:55:49 -0700
From: "BuffBob" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??

oops - i meant to use the term "keys" or "barrel keys", rather than wedges -
the old time name for this very common technique.  you don't want to "wedge"
anything, or move the world!  bob.

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of BuffBob
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:30 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:08:10 -0800
From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40

I've been to Ft. Washita the last 7 years.  I'ts one of my favorite
rendezvous.  It is normally the week after the Southwestern and most of the
traders stay in the area for it.  The site is beautiful and the park staff
is friendly.  There are a few rules that you might not have elsewhere, since
it is a state park, but that's understandable.  The only downside is that
it's a popular school/scout field trip destination and you have to make sure
your things are secured before leaving camp.  I have never had any trouble
from "pilgrims" and have camped right behind traders' row the last three
years.  I simply tied the tent shut with the valuables inside.

I havce always enjoyed it more than most doins'.  I highly recommend Ft.
Washita.

Humbly submitted,
Sidney Porter


- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Hepner <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40


>    Might be a little late and a little out of the way, but there is a
>pretty decent 'vous at Ft. Washita (just a little outside of Madill Ok.)
>during March 29th - April 4th with early setup on March 27th. It is a Ok.
>Historical Society historic site complete with reconstructed buildings,
>barracks, etc.
>
>Your most dis-obed.. oops! I mean obedient servent.
>"Dull Hawk"
>
>----------
>> From: [e-mail]
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
>> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:42 PM
>>
>> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
>> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have
>Meteor
>> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will
>Rogers
>> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
>appreciated.
>> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:12:14 -0800
From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40

I agree.  Lawton is a nice town and the Museum of the Great Plains is a good
one for a small place.  The Wildlife Refuge is really pretty.  It is in the
Wichita Mountains.  Go up to Meers and have one of the greatest hamburgers
you ever ate.

Sidney Porter


- -----Original Message-----
From: linda lawyer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40


>
>
>We recommend Woolarock in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, just
>south of the Kansas border and Lawton, Oklahoma has the
>Museum of the Great Plains and Wichita National Wild Life Refuge.
>
>Keith and Linda Lawyer
>[e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
>> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already
>have Meteor
>> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and
>Will Rogers
>> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
>appreciated.
>> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>>
>>
>
>==
>
>
>Keith and Linda Lawyer
>[e-mail]
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:35:59 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Real Bird's Nests (Was: First Flint and Steel Fire)

Barney Fife ([e-mail]) wrote:
>>nobody's mentioned it yet, so i'll throw in my $.02: in my humble opinion, the
best 'birdsnest' is bird's nest.  they are abundant, have been gathered and
formed for you, are usually dry enough to use immediately and flame easily.
hard to beat.<<
I'd better respond, just in case this was not a joke,  The collection of
bird's nests, as well as the birds, feathers, eggs, etc., is strictly
prohibited by law (the North American Migratory Bird Treaty being just one
of many). Bird's nests may not be removed, to protect the breeding birds
that use them. Some bird species re-use the same nests year after year. Some
birds use nests built by other species the previous year or even the
previous week. Removing the nest of an endangered species will land you in
extremely hot water, but in fact nearly* every single nest is protected by
law. For this reason, nobody should knowingly allow real birds nests to be
used in fire lighting competitions.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
Former member of the American Birding Association (until it got too blasted
expensive!), Alberta Bird Atlas Project
Member Canadian Nature Federation, Federation of Alberta Naturalists
Co-author of "Copulatory Behaviour in Great Horned Owls", _Blue Jay_,
Nov-Dec 1997

* (The exceptions would be nests of introduced species like European
Starlings and House Sparrows (but not other sparrow species), but I would
not enjoy trying to prove to a wildlife official that the nest I had been
found with was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a starling's.)
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:36:37 -0800
From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Real Bird's Nests (Was: First Flint and Steel Fire)

Angela,

Good in ya. A point very well taken.............as was pointed out about the
Yucca being a protected plant in California.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 8:35 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Real Bird's Nests (Was: First Flint and Steel Fire)


>Barney Fife ([e-mail]) wrote:
>>>nobody's mentioned it yet, so i'll throw in my $.02: in my humble
opinion, the
>best 'birdsnest' is bird's nest.  they are abundant, have been gathered and
>formed for you, are usually dry enough to use immediately and flame easily.
>hard to beat.<<
>I'd better respond, just in case this was not a joke,  The collection of
>bird's nests, as well as the birds, feathers, eggs, etc., is strictly
>prohibited by law (the North American Migratory Bird Treaty being just one
>of many). Bird's nests may not be removed, to protect the breeding birds
>that use them. Some bird species re-use the same nests year after year.
Some
>birds use nests built by other species the previous year or even the
>previous week. Removing the nest of an endangered species will land you in
>extremely hot water, but in fact nearly* every single nest is protected by
>law. For this reason, nobody should knowingly allow real birds nests to be
>used in fire lighting competitions.
>
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>Former member of the American Birding Association (until it got too blasted
>expensive!), Alberta Bird Atlas Project
>Member Canadian Nature Federation, Federation of Alberta Naturalists
>Co-author of "Copulatory Behaviour in Great Horned Owls", _Blue Jay_,
>Nov-Dec 1997
>
>* (The exceptions would be nests of introduced species like European
>Starlings and House Sparrows (but not other sparrow species), but I would
>not enjoy trying to prove to a wildlife official that the nest I had been
>found with was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a starling's.)
>[e-mail]
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:33:01 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Parts needed

I picked up a (Eli) Whitney single barreled percussion shotgun that is in
excellent condition, but is missing some parts.  These guns were assembled by
Whitney, 1866-1869, using surplus .58 cal musket barrels reamed out to .20 ga.
Nothing listed in the Dixie catalog that fits, though they do have some
Whitney parts listed.

I need all the internal action parts, the hammer, and the trigger mechanism,
as well as the screw in side cover.

Any leads appreciated.

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:42:08 -0600
From: "Phil Petersen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Medicine Bag & "Chouteau" Coat

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE4D49.68259F40
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello to the List.  I was re reading the Summer issue of "The Tomahawk & =
Long Rifle".  The article on the requirements for the Hiveranno Degree =
of Membership lists the above two item being made out of brain tanned =
hides.  Would some one please give a more detailed description of these =
two items.  I would be interested in finding out if I couls sew these =
items.  Also the same article mentions Vegetable tanned items.  What is =
vegetable tanning?  Thanks in advance.  Please respond to:  =
[e-mail]

Phil

- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE4D49.68259F40
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello to the List.  I was re =
reading the=20
Summer issue of "The Tomahawk & Long Rifle".  The =
article on=20
the requirements for the Hiveranno Degree of Membership lists the above =
two item=20
being made out of brain tanned hides.  Would some one please give a =
more=20
detailed description of these two items.  I would be interested in =
finding=20
out if I couls sew these items.  Also the same article mentions =
Vegetable=20
tanned items.  What is vegetable tanning?  Thanks in =
advance. =20
Please respond to:  <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Phil</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE4D49.68259F40--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:31:10 -0600
From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: JUTE/CHAR

    I think maybe a lot of people must not even know if their jute is
treated or not. Guess I just found out why this discussion group is so
important!
    As for char, try using 100% cotton cheese cloth.

Dull Hawk

- ----------
> From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE
> Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:35 AM
>
> Roger,
>   Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and
did
> not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it
would
> burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use
> tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of
> ways to accomplish, but I won't get into  them here. [ no need in
> encouraging such practices]  Even jute won't literally explode into
flames
> every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always
> specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can
> get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants.
I
> think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our
> forefathers used which was whatever was at hand.
>   A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a
> new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material.
They
> work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find
it
> catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns
into
> a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it.
> Pendleton
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:06:49 -0800
From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Brain Tan

This is primarily directed to Matt Richards but anyone with the knowhow
is welcome to help us.

Matt,
My good friend Lee Newbill and I thought we would embark on the task of
brain tanning a couple of deer hides.
We are using your book as the guide, this being our first time at this.
The fleshing went fine. We bucked the hides(soft wood ash) and when they
came out of the solution
They had a definite rotted smell. First question, is this the norm? My
thought is that the bucking solution
was too weak, not thick enough (like a milkshake).
Second, will the hide be OK if we proceed on with the graining even though
there is obvious
decomposition starting here.(smells really really bad)

We did find that we were not graining the hide, just removing the hair
would it be ok to
re-buck the hides to re-infuse with water?

Thanks so much for the help!!

"Pockets"
A.K.A.
Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]

  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
  General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:32:19 -0800
From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan

Matt, Matt Richards knows more on this than I, but Every hide I've tanned
did stink rather awful...  I was not too offended, but my wife let me
know that I smelled like death while tanning, and after...  The hides had
a stink to them until after the braining process.  Work fast, hold your
nose, the hides will be fine...Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:41:33 -0800
From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan

At 08:32 PM 1/31/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Matt, Matt Richards knows more on this than I, but Every hide I've tanned
>did stink rather awful...  I was not too offended, but my wife let me
>know that I smelled like death while tanning, and after...  The hides had
>a stink to them until after the braining process.  Work fast, hold your
>nose, the hides will be fine...Hardtack


Thanks that does make me feel better. Do you know what would be rotting that
is making the smell? The mucus layer of the epidermis? Or is it just the
whole hide.
As to the smell, my wife made the same comment today about my smell when I was
done working with the hide. I did also notice that my hands still have the
smell embedded
in them to a small degree and I can't get rid of it. NASTY!!


"Pockets"
A.K.A.
Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]

  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
  General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864


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Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:17:51 -0800
From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan

Matt, well.....you are dealing with part of a dead thing, I think it is
probably the flesh side that stinks worse, but the whole hide is a 'dead'
thing.  Each, of several, hides I have done have smelled bad.  I usually
work the hide in 'spells', I work it awhile, then back into the freezer
until next time.  My wife was not too pleased with the smelly thing going
back into the freezer!  The smell never took in the freezer, though.  The
good news is that I've ended up with beautiful brain tan, from a smelly
old 'dead thing'.   Good luck,   Hardtack

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