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hist_text-digest       Friday, January 29 1999       Volume 01 : Number 228




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:34:44 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue

Douglas,

Sorry for the delay in response, I've been real busy.

I wrote an article for the Tomahawk and LongRifle a few years back=
 documenting
the term Bum Fodder being in use in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
 It
was defined as soft paper for the necessary house.  A concurrent though no
longer used term was torchecul.

This was taken from the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue first
published in
1795.  Though the unrepentant royalists and tory sympathizers who enforced=
 the
Victorian concepts deleting much of interest from history have left us few
other references: as there was slang for the term it is pretty certain=
 wiping
paper was known.  Doubtful on the frontier but a better choice than stinging
nettle.

John...


At 07:21 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
>=A0=A0=A0 Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any=
 references
>to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the
>woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop
>at streams a lot?
>
>Douglas
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:49:56 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fog horns

   >If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?
   >Made from the horn of a fog!  (must be somethin' like a buffler)
Hey I like your creativity! Thats the best reply I've gotten yet!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Why do we sterilize needles for lethal injections?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:41:46 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping

I trap many types of animals and am on the board of directors of the state
trappers assn.  Also a life member in the National Trappers Assn.  For
question I suggest you contact me off the list at [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:18:29 -0800
From: "john c. funk,jr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue

John

By way of interest, the common slang term for the "butt" in England today is
still "bum."  My 1898 Funk & Wagnells still defines 'bum as: the buttocks'.
And, of course, fodder is feed.

Draw your own conclusions..................

John Funk


- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue


Douglas,

Sorry for the delay in response, I've been real busy.

I wrote an article for the Tomahawk and LongRifle a few years back
documenting
the term Bum Fodder being in use in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
It
was defined as soft paper for the necessary house.  A concurrent though no
longer used term was torchecul.

This was taken from the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue first
published in
1795.  Though the unrepentant royalists and tory sympathizers who enforced
the
Victorian concepts deleting much of interest from history have left us few
other references: as there was slang for the term it is pretty certain
wiping
paper was known.  Doubtful on the frontier but a better choice than stinging
nettle.

John...


At 07:21 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
> Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references
>to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the
>woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop
>at streams a lot?
>
>Douglas
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:54:36 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Pennsylvania School Rifles??

I have been looking at two books over the last couple of days thanks to the effo
rts of the local librarian.  The Kentucky Rifle, By John G.W. Dillin, and Arms Ma
kers of Pennsylvania, by James B. Wisker.  Appears that most of what I will call
Authentic Pennsylvania School Rifles had large Buttplates, and Bulks Stocks.  Tha
n I first thought??

O.K. here my question in looking at Tracks, and several other Gun Maker Catalogs
they appear to be showing much Slender Buttplates, and Slender Stocks on their Pe
nnsylvania School Rifles.

Are my references wrong or am I looking at references that just show the early Pe
nnsylvania School Rifles, and is their a better reference books that shows the la
ter style of Pennsylvania.  If so what are the titles?

Or is what I am calling Slender, with Slender Buttplates Plates Pennsylvania real
ly Southern Mountain, Kentucky, or Tennessee School Rifles?

Any suggestions would be apprieciated.

Thanks,

B

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:42:27 +0000
From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pennsylvania School Rifles??

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The later in the period of Pennsylvania School development, the smaller =
and narrower the buttplate becomes.
The early Jeager being the fattest, the transitional, the Rev War, The =
Golden Age and then the late flint and early caplock.  For our time =
frame the Golden age and forward would be most appropriate.  While the =
Golden age is not as narrow and curved on the end as the late =
flint/early caplock, it is narrower than its predecessors and IMHO Track =
of the Wolf has kits for all eras stated above.


Good Luck

Rick
- -----Original Message-----
From:    BRUCE S. DE LIS [SMTP:[e-mail]]
Sent:    Thursday, January 28, 1999 3:55 PM
To:    [e-mail]
Subject:    MtMan-List: Pennsylvania School Rifles??



I have been looking at two books over the last couple of days thanks to =
the effo
rts of the local librarian.  The Kentucky Rifle, By John G.W. Dillin, =
and Arms Ma
kers of Pennsylvania, by James B. Wisker.  Appears that most of what I =
will call=20
Authentic Pennsylvania School Rifles had large Buttplates, and Bulks =
Stocks.  Tha
n I first thought??

O.K. here my question in looking at Tracks, and several other Gun Maker =
Catalogs=20
they appear to be showing much Slender Buttplates, and Slender Stocks on =
their Pe
nnsylvania School Rifles.

Are my references wrong or am I looking at references that just show the =
early Pe
nnsylvania School Rifles, and is their a better reference books that =
shows the la
ter style of Pennsylvania.  If so what are the titles?

Or is what I am calling Slender, with Slender Buttplates Plates =
Pennsylvania real
ly Southern Mountain, Kentucky, or Tennessee School Rifles?

Any suggestions would be apprieciated.

Thanks,

B



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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:48:26 +0000
From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Frogskins?

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What does one do with frogskins???

Rick

This book that Tony Clark recommends is out of print, but I suspect that
some on the list have read it and would have it on their trade blanket.
I am interested in reading a copy and if you would like to trade your
copy for some frogskins, please contact me at:  [e-mail]


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hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAGfZ

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD5.A53388A0--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:20:49 -0800
From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Frogskins?

Many of us know that frogskins = dollar bills.  I heard a funny story
from some friends in missouri this summer.  It seems these friends were
going to Ft. Osage for a doins, there was a pilgrim along.  Said pilgrim
was wondering what the Ft. factor would trade for an item of interest.
Pilgrim was informed that factor wouldn't trade, he'd only take
'frogskins'; said pilgrim replied...'Oh great, where am I going to get
frogskins at this time of year...!'   this was related to me as a true
story...     Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:11:47 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Frogskins?

I've carried a small, squashed frogskin in my wallet for years, which I
picked up off the ranch road at Granny Martin's place, hoping for an
opportunity to employ it in one of those "frogskin trading" deals, but all
the traders around here simply use the term "money" instead. Rats.
YMOS
Pat Quilter

- -----Original Message-----
From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 3:21 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Frogskins?


Many of us know that frogskins = dollar bills.  I heard a funny story
from some friends in missouri this summer.  It seems these friends were
going to Ft. Osage for a doins, there was a pilgrim along.  Said pilgrim
was wondering what the Ft. factor would trade for an item of interest.
Pilgrim was informed that factor wouldn't trade, he'd only take
'frogskins'; said pilgrim replied...'Oh great, where am I going to get
frogskins at this time of year...!'   this was related to me as a true
story...     Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 00:49:46 -0800
From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: School of the Longhunter

Hi Jim,

    Here's the info you were looking for: "The School of the Longhunter"
It's March 26-27-28 at Prickett's Fort State Park, Fairmont, West Virginia
Call (800) CALL-WVA and ask for the Prickett's Fort operator, or [phone]
The fee is $35, which includes all you'll need, plus a dinner. Lots of good
speakers.

    This info was supplied by Carol Rose Parker of the French & Indain War list.
If doing a longhunter is of interest to you, you might check out the list. To
subscribe to the list, send a message to:
[e-mail]  with SUBSCRIBE HISTORY in the message body.

Best regards,

Terry Smith


[e-mail] wrote:

> (Snip) I would also appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school
> I had heard was being held here in the East.
>
> Any help, on or off list, would be deeply appreciated.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jim

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:27:29 -0600
From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn Man School

I heard that their was a school for Mtn Man , is this true and if there
is were is it. Donnie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:29:24 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats

I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup.  They are looking
to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing
3,000 of them.

As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I
would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know
and I'll pass it on.

Thanks,

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:07:01 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats

Have you called?


C. D. Jarnagin Co @ 601-287-4777, Fax [phone]
May not be able to help you buy may know of someone

B

>
>I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup.  They are looking
>to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing
>3,000 of them.
>
>As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I
>would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know
>and I'll pass it on.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:33:36 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man School

Head toward the setting sun, turn Left.....Or right, if ya doon mind
Blackfeets.....

Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
- -----Original Message-----
From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:47 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn Man School


>I heard that their was a school for Mtn Man , is this true and if there
>is were is it. Donnie
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:12:48 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats

Contact:

Lance Grabowski 505-471-0011

He has a source.

John...


At 08:29 AM 1/29/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup.=A0 They are looking
>to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing
>3,000 of them.
>
>As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I
>would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know
>and I'll pass it on.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:15:01 -0500
From: "Lewis K Raper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats

The K Company in Pelzer SC have been supplying boy scouts with cloths and
Indian stuff for years call Kay Koch @ [phone] or 1-800-977-2788.
They are open Tues.-Sat from 10 till 6 Eastern Time. Tell Them Possum Hunter
sent ya, They will do you right.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:37 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats


>I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup.  They are looking
>to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing
>3,000 of them.
>
>As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I
>would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know
>and I'll pass it on.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:42:16 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40

I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have Meteor
Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers
Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:45:52 -0800 (PST)
From: linda lawyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40

We recommend Woolarock in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, just
south of the Kansas border and Lawton, Oklahoma has the
Museum of the Great Plains and Wichita National Wild Life Refuge.

Keith and Linda Lawyer
- [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already
have Meteor
> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and
Will Rogers
> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
appreciated.
> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>
>

==


Keith and Linda Lawyer
[e-mail]



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:54:44 -0800
From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40

How's bout Bent's fort ...

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have Meteor
> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers
> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'

- --

JW "LRay" Stephens

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:00:03 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40

When you hit New Mexico on I-40 at Mile Marker 37 on the left side of the
Road is a "Giant Truck Stop", food is resturant is excellant.

Also if your are going to Taos you will be going out of route, as you go
North on I-25, from I-40 in Albuquerque.  So hit Sante Fe as the town is
an artist Coloney.

B
>
>I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
>recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have Meteor
>Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers
>Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.
>Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:09:38 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??

I was thumbing through Track of the Wolf's Catalog, Number 14 this afternoon and
 started to notice some of their kits showed "Wedges" verses "Pins" to hold the b
arrel of a rifle to a stock.  I would expect to find this "Wedge System in Hawken
s", but also noticed that "Wedges" were used in their "North Carolina Tennessee M
ountain Rifle", and also their "Southern Mountain Rifle", Pages 142-145.

Are there Rifles with "Wedges" instead of Pins, Period Correct?

B

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:29:56 -0700
From: "BuffBob" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??

i can't say about "southern mtn rifles".  there are a few collectors who
know this field pretty well.  i think the few fullstock "SMR's"  i've seen
are usually pinned.  wedges were pretty common in all sorts of
"pennsylvania" rifles from 1780's or so on.  nice rifles like fully carved
Dickert with daisy patchbox, through the common plains or fur trade rifles.
i think most or all original Henry rifles i've seen have wedges, and their
contemporaries 1820 to 1850.  the less expensive rifles often have a simple
brass wedge with no head on either end.  it's a bit of extra work to install
wedges cleanly, so appreciate this if builder does it, probably worth some
extra $$.  bob.

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of BRUCE S. DE LIS
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:10 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:43:24 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??

FWIW, in mho, wedges make it one heck of a lot easier to get the barrel off
for cleaning, and minimize the risk of damage to the stock. Removal of pins
increases the risk of damage to the wood as well as enlarging the holes every
time they are pushed in or out.    given the choice, assuming both are
'correct' for your rifle, i'd say use wedges     yhs,  'Barney Fife'

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:46:48 -0600
From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40

    Might be a little late and a little out of the way, but there is a
pretty decent 'vous at Ft. Washita (just a little outside of Madill Ok.)
during March 29th - April 4th with early setup on March 27th. It is a Ok.
Historical Society historic site complete with reconstructed buildings,
barracks, etc.

Your most dis-obed.. oops! I mean obedient servent.
"Dull Hawk"

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40
> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:42 PM
>
> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like
> recommendations from the list as to points of interest.  I already have
Meteor
> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will
Rogers
> Museums (Claremore, OK).  Any additional info would be greatly
appreciated.
> Thanks for your time and tolerance.  'Barney Fife'
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:55:37 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges??

BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:

> I was thumbing through Track of the Wolf's Catalog, Number 14 this afternoon and
>  started to notice some of their kits showed "Wedges" verses "Pins" to hold the b
> arrel of a rifle to a stock.  I would expect to find this "Wedge System in Hawken
> s", but also noticed that "Wedges" were used in their "North Carolina Tennessee M
> ountain Rifle", and also their "Southern Mountain Rifle", Pages 142-145.
>
> Are there Rifles with "Wedges" instead of Pins, Period Correct?

Bruce,

Yup. A friend brought over a percussion half stock original for me to look at this
afternoon (we will be asking for any info on it when we can decifer the ingraving)
that had a wedge rather than pins. So Hawkens were not the only guns to use wedges.
As to the rifles you saw in "Track", I'm confident that they came with pins and
wedges depending on the maker at the time. My Opinion, I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> B

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:10:31 -0600
From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax

    I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If
not I have been cheating for quite some time!

"Dull HawK"
- ----------
> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
> Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 9:03 PM
>
> Capt. Lahti' I have seen what these gentlemen are referring to about
> starting the flax or tow in a flintlock pan, after a demo I wondered over
> and picked up the "regular tow" as what this person called it. Low and
> behold it had a faint smell of a cleaner on it, turned out he was using
> "jute" for this demo and for his super fast flint & steel demo. Wonder
what
> plant he got refined jute off of ?
>
> Buck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 7:47 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax
>
>
> >
> >
> >BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote:
> >
> >> Unspun Flax is mentioned:  "Unspun flax, used for swabbing bore"
> >>
> >> Can't see what it would not burn with a spark, from a Flintlock Pan.
> >>
> >> Bruce,
> >
> >Flax or tow is a great way to wipe out the bore. It is a bit of a myth
> >though, that you can get it to ignite by throwing a spark into it in
your
> >pan or otherwise without making it into char first. If you work at it
long
> >enough, it might work but it would be a luck thing at best. I've tried
to
> >use it as tinder and have never had that much success. As char, linen or
> >flax cloth will work ok if you don't let it get too fragile.
> >
> >There are a number of things that make good char, including punky wood
like
> >rotten birch and cottonwood. Yucca stalks and other pithy woody plants
make
> >usable char as do some types of bracken fungus. Experiment with what you
> >find in your area and when you go to other locals.
> >
> >I like burlap sacks or gunny sacks for tinder and cedar bark, inner
> >cottonwood bark and inner bark of sage along with dry grass's work too
to
> >take the heat from your char and turn it into flame. Experiment. Birch
bark
> >from most types makes a great flame catcher if pitch pine or fat wood is
> not
> >available and will burn even when damp. Pitch nodules off bruised trees
> will
> >help keep a flame going.
> >
> >As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the
touch
> >hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him
> some
> >time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. I remain....
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >
> >
>
>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #228
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