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hist_text-digest      Wednesday, January 27 1999      Volume 01 : Number 227




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:32:37 -0700
From: "buffbob" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder

Bruce - the folks you mention cover a wide range from $500 to $5,000 and up
rifles.  Some focus on building pretty good rifles with off the shelf parts
and precarved, pre-inlet stocks to save us $$.  Some build a lock correct to
a time and place (worth $500 or more for just the lock), build or cast all
the mounts, and stock from a blank.  All are capable of both, but go
different ways in order to feed their family, and get some nice pieces in
our hands.  Some still do both.  Some will build a rifle that is so accurate
to the architecture, details and techniques of a particular maker or time
period and place that the more you learn over time, the more you'll
appreciate what they already knew.

Anyone who does a standard style or kit has to design a "common denominator"
rifle so they can sell enough to get their time and $$ invested in tooling
and setup back.   And some of these are very well designed, not a knock.
You can finish them differently, but after awhile you can tell what set of
parts they started with.  You can modify parts to be closer to the old ones,
and can vary the finishes.

So you need to narrow the field a bit - by your use of the rifle, your
budget, how much you are buying the rifle vs. how much you are buying the
knowledge of the riflemaker.  Some of these guys have a 20 - 40 year head
start, representing a lot of their time and money in learning what the old
stockers built, what works, etc.  Some customers are willing to pay for a
fine custom rifle for the fun of talking to the gunsmith for a year, as
their dream project comes together.

Didn't mean to get carried away.  Comparing some of the folks you mentioned,
and some others we could add, is comparing apples to oranges.  All will be
helpful, if you can narrow the field a bit.  There are fine used rifles out
there, if you look around.  I was talking to a fine builder the other day
about whether he would advertise on the Internet.  No, he said.  His
customers were buying his knowledge of the old guns, his experience,
enthusiasm and advice, and enjoyed the relationship in determining what sort
of rifle or smoothbore he would build, and in following the work.  He was
thinking the net is better suited to buying a commodity, without the
personal contact.  Interesting . . .

Good luck in your search.  Check out ads in Muzzleloader and Muzzle Blasts
magazines, On the Trail, etc - these ads will cover most of the folks who
are promoting their work nationally.  Can send me a note separate from list
if you wish, too.  I'm in Colorado.  Bob.

- -----Original Message-----
From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:48 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder


>
>
>I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen
the wor
>ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person
where the
>ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are
residing.
>
>I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the
Web-si
>tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers.
>
>I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing
some o
>f the finishing myself.
>
>I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern
Mountain Rifl
>e Style in a Flintlock.  Hope someone might see this message, and point me
in oth
>er direction unless I have exhausted my options.
>
>Thanks,
>
>B
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:25:28 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Mike Haught)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello the list

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:37:01 EST, you wrote:

>In a message dated 99-01-25 22:24:15 EST, you write:
>
>> About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions about=
 gear
>>  and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the Revolutionary =
War. I
>>  received some good information
>>  SNIP
>>  I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on =
it,
>>  especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I would =
also
>>  appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school I had =
heard was
>>  being held here in the East.
>
>Jim,
>I think it would serve you well to join the Rev War list, since they are=
 in
>your particular time period.  The questions you are asking are almost =
ancient
>history to the Mountain Men.  Perhaps someone on the list could give you
>instructions on how to subscribe there.  They are more attuned to your
>specific needs.
>

I would be interested in info on subscribing to the Rev War list also.

    -mwh

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:45:25 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks

Steve Janowiak wrote:
>
> I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a
> flintlock.  I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300.
> It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular
> gun or maker.  If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie
> "Cub".   The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about but
> also heard that they're priced more than they're worth.  Any comments on
> Pedersoli would be appreciated.

It's Armsport, and they're one of, if not the cheapest, Italian
makers.  Between the two, Ped. is better, however, you're MUCH better
off to save your money till you have enough to get a GOOD rifle from
Jackie Brown, Jim Chambers, or someone else who builds top-shelf
QUALITY rifles.

Fred

- --
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:47:49 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder

"BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote:
>
> I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen the wor
> ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person where the
> ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are residing.
>
> I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the Web-si
> tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers.
>
> I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing some o
> f the finishing myself.
>
> I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern Mountain Rifl
> e Style in a Flintlock.  Hope someone might see this message, and point me in oth
> er direction unless I have exhausted my options.

You listed 2 of the BEST.....Jackie Brown and Jim Chambers.  You CAN'T
go wrong with either one.

Fred

- --
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:06:19 -0600
From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire

I have a smoking friend who resolved to only light up using flint and steel.
(The period type, not the Bic type).  The urgencies of his nicotene
addiction made him unsurpassed in producing a light.  He used a steel with
one of those brass tubes with a charred end of a cotton rope.  Used the
tobacco in the cigarette for the 'mini birds nest'  He was almost as fast as
a Bic.

Iron Burner


- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Janowiak

>I use a flint and steel to start my barbeque.  This always keeps me in
>practice.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:35:36 -0600
From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks

Can you get good kits between 250 and 350 in the "Track"?

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of The Windhams
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 7:37 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks


Steve,
Save the money,  buythe parts from track of the wolf and build your own !
or find some one to build it for you, you'll be much happier. and your not
a marksmen until you do it with a flinter......I know that will get it
going !

Rick windham
http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html
- ----------
> From: Steve Janowiak <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks
> Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 11:01 AM
>
> I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a
> flintlock.  I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300.
> It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular
> gun or maker.  If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie
> "Cub".   The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about
but
> also heard that they're priced more than they're worth.  Any comments on
> Pedersoli would be appreciated.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:03:56 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder

In a message dated 99-01-24 08:14:31 EST, you write:

<< I  was just reading a book where a person used a small piece
 of " unspun flax " set in the pan of his flintlock with some priming
 powder and the touch hole plugged to start his fire.
 Got me to wondering if any of you fellas' have used your rifles
 to start a fire or have heard of "flax" being used as tinder.

 From the northwoods,

 Tony Clark
  >>

I have done this many time, especially on woods walks where some smarty makes
the point dependent on starting a fire without your fire starting kit.  Tow
(as in tow head) is the left overs from the flax processing and makes a great
tinder.  It was carried in the F&I and Rev War to use with a 'worm' to clean
your musket.

I have also just used the flint and frizzen to spark my char cloth works real
well in a pinch.

Your humble servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:26:07 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus

Have you gotten any takers on sending you tree fungus (I call them shelf
mushrooms), if not I could send you some.  Of course they'll be Packer
ones from Wisconsin trees!  B^)

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:30:28 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus

Just thought I'd put out a word of caution for those who will be trying
to make char out of tree fungus/shelf mushrooms.  The first time I did
this I sliced the fungus into thin slices and then chared as I would
cloth.  I let the can cool and dumped the pieces onto our wooden picnic
table.  I started another batch, went inside (just for a minute) and
came out to find the top of the table smoldering!  Some of the pieces
had been going, burned up the first batch I'd made and made an
interesting heart shaped burn mark on the top of the table!  So spread
them out on the ground and watch them for a bit after they've cooled.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:40:14 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus

Yikes,  that offer was supposed to be sent to Joe Brandl.  Thought I'd
checked the "To" box.  I'm not sure what kind of response I would get
from the list.  I suppose if you pay postage, I could fill some orders
as it's easy enough to find around here, and they don't weigh much.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:45:07 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Indian Scouts

   >After an absence quite a bit longer than I anticipated, things have
   >finally settled down enough for me to resubscribe.
   >About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions
   >about gear and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the
   >Revolutionary War. I received some good information, but
   >unfortunately while I was deployed my C: drive was corrupted and by
   >boys were kind enough to reformat my drive and reinstall windows.
   >I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on
   >it, especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I
   >would also appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter
   >school I had heard was being held here in the East.
 Well Jim,I think you are on the wrong list for this request. You should try
[e-mail]  I'm on both lists and this traffic is much more on
the revliste. You might also want to try
www.globalserve.net/lougheed/confederacy/index.html
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:53:15 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)

HI ALL,
         NEED A HELPING HAND SOME WERE I THINK IN THE A.M.M.WEB IS A SITE ON
BOATS. ALL THE WAY FROM KEELBOAT TO BULL BOAT.AS THE SITE OPENS UP YOU SEE A
FELLOW I THINK KNEE DEEP IN WATER PULLING ARE STANDING BEHIND HIS CANOE CAN
NOT RECALL.THE REST OF WHAT THE SITE IS ABOUT.HOPE YOU GUYS CAN HELP .HAVE TO
GET SOME INFOR. FOR A NEWLETTER FOR FORT OSAGE.
                                         THANK YOU ALL ARE A GREAT BUNCH
                                                               TRAPHAND
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:29:19 -0600
From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trapping

    Does anyone have references to mountain men trapping anything other
than beaver? If so what? What kind of traps, stakes, sets, etc.?
    Do any of y'all trap coon, fox, etc.? I am wanting to do my trapping as
authentic as possible. What kind of stakes do y'all use? I have been using
huge steel stakes and they are not real convenient to pack. Any
suggestions? Thanks in advance to any help recieved.

Douglas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:30:32 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping

Here's an example of what was being sold to fur buyers in 1856, not all
beavers.

Buck
_______________________________________
We always think of St.Louis as being the hub of the fur trade, but there
were other locations that did quite well, for example St. Paul, Minnesota
took its fair share of the business, listed below is a list seen in the
St.Paul Advertiser, a local newspaper.

Animals
 No. Skins
 Value

Rats
 64,292
 $11,572.56

Minks
 8,276
 18,621.00

Martens
 1,428
 3,570.00

Fishers
 1,045
 4,702.50

Red Fox
 876
 1,095.00

Cross Fox
 20
 100.00

Silver Fox
 8
 400.00

Kit Fox
 2,542
 1,271.00

Coons
 3,400
 2,550.00

Wolverines
 2,032
 3,048.00

Otter
 405
 1,417.50

Beaver, lb..
 586
 881.00

Bear
 610
 6,700.00

Lynx
 50
 125.00

Buffalo Robes
 7,500
 41,200.00

Total Value
 $
 95,750.56


Now would you believe this was a poor year according to the Advertiser in
1856, a large amount of these furs were traded for in merchandise, the fur
trade as we know it, was over, but trade guns, blanket's, cookware and
anything else was still moving across this country.

Think of the amount of furs gathered in the hay day of the fur trade 1820's
to 1840's, look for example at Ft. Union, a prime location and the amount of
money that John Jacob Astor made is unbelievable, even by today's standards.
___________________________________________

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Hepner <[e-mail]>
To: Mtn Man Discussion Group <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 6:34 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Trapping


>    Does anyone have references to mountain men trapping anything other
>than beaver? If so what? What kind of traps, stakes, sets, etc.?
>    Do any of y'all trap coon, fox, etc.? I am wanting to do my trapping as
>authentic as possible. What kind of stakes do y'all use? I have been using
>huge steel stakes and they are not real convenient to pack. Any
>suggestions? Thanks in advance to any help recieved.
>
>Douglas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:51:38 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire

nobody's mentioned it yet, so i'll throw in my $.02: in my humble opinion, the
best 'birdsnest' is bird's nest.  they are abundant, have been gathered and
formed for you, are usually dry enough to use immediately and flame easily.
hard to beat.     yhs      'Barney Fife'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:02:33 -0600
From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fog horns

If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Made from the horn of a fog!  (must be somethin' like a buffler)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:09:50 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: other furs

Yes, its tru that in the 19th century there was a
steady trade in numerous other furs than beaver.
While I don't have the cites before me as I write,
the AFC records (which cover not onoy the west,
but also most of the upper Mississippi Valley)
contain long list os skin return from their
various departments for each season.  On these
lists, even in the 1820-40 period, beaver pales at
least in terms of numbers to muskrat, racoon, fox,
wolf, otter, buffalo, shaved or parchment deerskin
and others.
The real question is who was bringing in these
skins.
Trapper journalists seldom mention trapping
anything other than beaver or the ocasional otter.
 The diaries of the HBC Snake River Brigade
leaders (John Work, for example, one of his has
been published as "Journal of J W" and should be
available thourgh interlibrary loan) for example,
usually detail exactly what the men trapped each
day and sometimes eve how many traps they had out.
 They were going almost exclusively for beaver and
sometimes they got otter, whether from the same or
different sets is unclear.
I suspect that many of the coon, muskrat and
deerskins came from Native trappers in the upper
Mississippi, western Great Lakes area.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:12:31 -0800
From: Flying Cloud <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Plains Pistol - Authenticity Question

Steve Janowiak wrote:
>
> I have a Lyman Plains Pistol.  I am curious how "correct" the forend cap on
> it is.  It just has a flat end cap that covers the ramrod entry, like the
> T/C Hawken endcap.  I the only guns I've seen this type of end cap on is T/C
> and its look-a-likes.  I was thinking of changing it to the better looking
> endcap and thimble set up that the Great Plains Rifle has.  Does anyone know
> if this type of endcap has any historical value?


The plains pistol is a close copy of the 1838 navy I have had 1838 navys
in the past that had been changed to cap from flint
- --
Jim Ellison,  http://www.flyingcloudtrading.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:19:40 -0600
From: "Steve Janowiak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Plains Pistol - Authenticity Question

"Close copy"?  Even right down to the forend cap?

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Flying Cloud
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 3:13 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Plains Pistol - Authenticity Question


Steve Janowiak wrote:
>
> I have a Lyman Plains Pistol.  I am curious how "correct" the forend cap
on
> it is.  It just has a flat end cap that covers the ramrod entry, like the
> T/C Hawken endcap.  I the only guns I've seen this type of end cap on is
T/C
> and its look-a-likes.  I was thinking of changing it to the better looking
> endcap and thimble set up that the Great Plains Rifle has.  Does anyone
know
> if this type of endcap has any historical value?


The plains pistol is a close copy of the 1838 navy I have had 1838 navys
in the past that had been changed to cap from flint
- --
Jim Ellison,  http://www.flyingcloudtrading.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:11:27 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus

No Jim, I haven't, I would pay you for them and shipping costs or trade
something
Thanks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:40:58 -0800
From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly

This book that Tony Clark recommends is out of print, but I suspect that
some on the list have read it and would have it on their trade blanket.
I am interested in reading a copy and if you would like to trade your
copy for some frogskins, please contact me at:  [e-mail]

Also, the same author has written "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous : A History
of the Fur Trade Rendezvous, 1825-1840." This book is in print, and I
wonder if any listee has read it and could provide a "buy"
recommendation.

> northwoods wrote:
>
> Just read a book that some of you might find interesting. It's
> entitled
> "Mountain Man and Grizzly".
>
> Author: Fred R. Gowans
>
> Published: Mountain Grizzly Publications Orem, Utah  1986
>
> From the northwoods
>
> Tony Clark
- --

JW "LRay" Stephens
...
ICQ# 20564775   "mean people suck"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:11:03 -0800
From: Carpenters <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and  Grizzly

>
> Also, the same author has written "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous : A History
> of the Fur Trade Rendezvous, 1825-1840." This book is in print, and I
> wonder if any listee has read it and could provide a "buy"
> recommendation.
>
I have two editions of Rocky Mountain Rendezvous, by Gowans.  I have
followed the book to all sites possible (some are on private property),
except the '25 site.  Just ran out of time.  I recommend the book.

Which reminds me, I just received the flyer for the 1834 Ham's Fork
re-enactment, near Granger, WY.  It is on an original '34 camp site  I'm
having brain fade, but either it is the camp of the American Fur Company
or the Rocky Mountain Fur Company.  I'll remember tomorrow.  It is the
weekend of August 20, 21 and 22, 1999.  You can contact them at:

    1834 Ham's Fork River Rendezvous
    P.O. Box 134
    Granger, WY  82934-0134

    Contact person - Sally Devore
            307-875-5406

They are now accepting registrations for all participants.  I'll be
there for the third time, at the 3rd annual (Fourth if you count 1834,
of course. Unfortunately, I missed this one).

Carp

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:09:45 -0800
From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bee Trees

A while ago it was mentioned that bee trees were not endemic in the
West, the honeybee being a European import. I ran into this interesting
note in "Westering Man" by Bil Gilbert: "(The honeybee, imported from
Europe, pioneered just ahead of the white settlements and proliferated
in the new country, where it had no native competitors for its
ecological niche. The extent of the bee range was usually about 100
miles westward of the line of settlement, and so regular was this
pattern that the Indians, who much admired it, came to call the bee "the
white man's fly.")."

This book, BTW, ostensibly about Captain Joseph Walker, provides a meaty
context for his life and the events that formed him into the mountaineer
and leader that he became. Waugh!
- --

JW "LRay" Stephens
...
ICQ# 20564775   "mean people suck"

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #227
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