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hist_text-digest        Sunday, January 3 1999        Volume 01 : Number 209




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 12:59:21 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks

I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about
documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain
man" period in the west.  They were availab le in
the freontier settlements (ie St Louis) and they
were available in the Mountains (ie ft Hall).
Please see Trapper clothing in BOB VII.  I'm not
going to dig it out and re-type references,
because anyone who is really interested can do so
for him or her self.  While more evidence is
certainly welcome (and I have gotten some more
since the Trapper Clothing piece) it does not
change the result that guernsey frocks were
"there" in sufficient quantities that they were
more common than a rare commodity.  We're not
talking aoout Jim Bridger's armour or something
like that.
Why don't we see gurnese frocks in historical
descriptions of trapper appearances?  There is no
clear easy answer.  Whatever the answer is, it is
probably the same reason why those same
descriptions do not mention fabric trousers,
commercial shoes, vests and other clothing items
that were widely available in the West in the
1820-40 period.  My THEORY is that such mundane
items were not nearly picturesque enough to note
and were literally nothing to write home about.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 12:45:26 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks

Allen Chronister wrote:

> I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about
> documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain
> man" period in the west.  They were availab le in
> the freontier settlements (ie St Louis) and they
> were available in the Mountains (ie ft Hall).
> Please see Trapper clothing in BOB VII.

Allen,

Thank you again for your illuminating thoughts. Now I don't have to dig
either. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 16:38:05 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hugh Glass locale

In a message dated 99-01-02 12:55:31 EST, you write:

<< JW Stephens wrote:
 >
 > Rereading the epic of Hugh Glass (under Maj. Henry 1823, chewed by
 > "grissly bear" and left to die in the care of Fitzgerald and Bridger,
 > abandoned) I decided to check the locale closely on a modern map. I was
 > surprised to find that the area of the mauling, which Dale Morgan gives
 > as 350 miles from Fort Kiowa, up the Grand River, is near an area of
 > North Dakota where I cut wheat during the summer of 1974. I recall the >>

There is actually a monument to Glass just a little south of Lemmon, South
Dakota. It is on a hill overlooking the forks of the Grand River. This area
could well be the source of another great story -- the putrified forest. The
town of Lemmon has a great park and museum constructed out of petrified wood.
The floors are petrified grass.
As everyone has been replying, it is grassland. In fact it is National
Grassland. I'll see if I can post a map. I have a picture but am not where the
picture is.

Tom Laidlaw

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 21:34:26 -0500
From: "Scott Janzen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "Shoepack" documentation

I don't remember who posed the question about historical documentation about
using shoe-packs in the last couple of days, but I ran across a mention in a
book I just started reading. The book is "Westward into Kentucky, the
Narrative of Daniel Trabue" edited by Chester Raymond Young. (University
Press of Kentucky, 1981, ISBN 0-8131-1410-1).
    The book is about Daniel Trabue who lived from 1760-1840 and was a 'long
hunter' in the Kentucky Wilderness when he wasn't fighting the British. I'm
not an expert researcher and this is my first foray into this time and
period, so if this book is not considered to be good documentation, please
shoot me a note. It was written by Trabue in 1827, so he was 67 years old
when he wrote it.
    He writes about a Winter hunting trip in late-1779 in the Green River
area...

"We made socks to go over our shews with Buffelo skins puting the wool
inside and we had woolen gloves..."

Later, "We put on 2 pair of gloves and buffeloe socks on over our shews..."

Interesting that he mentions shoes (or 'shews). On a Spring hunt a couple
months later in 1780 he writes of another hunt when he was forced to escape
from some Indians;

"My shews was wet and too big for me. I kicked them off and went pass them.
I thought off the silver buckels that was in them which was worth $6. I
turned around and reached them..."

I was kind of surprised that he said 'shoes' and not mocassins or something,
but the statement about the buckles makes me sure that he really meant
shoes.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you all have read this book and what you
think of the documentation. I have found one or two inconsistancies in the
first sixty pages or so that could be chalked up to failing memory.

Kid.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 22:34:03 -0800
From: Tom Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks

I'm following this particular thread keenly since this touches on one of
the key questions in my mind, for anyone who is serious about accuracy.
The question is; For the purist, does the article of interest (be it a
shirt, tool, or whatever) require verifiable primary documentation as
being actually used by a particular person, at a particular place and
time? Or is it sufficient to pass the following tests:
    1) Must be of a material and construction that is time appropriate,
i.e., made by hand using
        a natural resource that was available and known to have been
used for that purpose
    2) Must have been available at a logical supply point, i.e., known
to be for sale or trade at
        a place where the persona of interest would have traded.
    3) Must be an article that the persona of interest would have valued
highly, i.e., something
        necessary for sustenance, travel, trapping, etc., and would have
logically been
        purchased using his very limited resources.

I think the honest application of these criteria will filter out just
about everything that is not appropriate.  Another thought, which may or
may not be suitable, is that every non-native
in the Rocky mountains in 1820 came from somewhere else and may very
well have brought the article of interest with him, again, assuming it
to be something of need (see number 3 above).

The second part of my dilemna has to do with water.  In 1820, there was
little reason to fear disease from natural water supplies. Sadly, this
is no longer true today.  My understanding is that there are few (if
any) places left today where one can drink without well-founded fear. On
modern outings, I am well served with a simple mechanical/chemical
device to restore the integrity of my drinking water.   On primitive
outings so far, there have been ample supplies of good water made
available.   For a more lengthy trek, say several days or more by foot,
how does one deal with this issue in a healthy way?  Just sterilize it
all with 100 proof?

(no flaming arrows, please, I'm only here to learn)

Tom

Allen Chronister wrote:

> I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about
> documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain
> man" period in the west..................

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:05:38 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Shoepack" documentation

Hi, Kid.

>I was kind of surprised that he said 'shoes' and not mocassins or something,
>but the statement about the buckles makes me sure that he really meant
>shoes.

Thanks, interesting stuff. I suspect the use of shoes was more common than
many would imagine, and I've seen other references to their being used by
hunters. Mark Baker discussed finding notations in the ledgers of Baynton,
Wharton and Morgan of shoes being sold to the market hunters working out of
Kaskaskia, IL, in 1767-68. This was in his new book.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html
non illegitimi carborundum est

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:48:55 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

Once again the question of documentation has been raised, this time by Tom. He
states that he is following the Guernsey Frock thread with interest to see
what sort of responses come back with reference to documentation.
     I liked Allen's response  about what is all the hubbub over documentation
concerning Guernsey frocks as they has been shown to be documented. I also
agree with Jeff's reminder that we must keep documentation in mind and apply
the standards to all things we seek to authenticate in the material culture of
the Rocky Mountain trapper or other historical characters.
      Tom poses a few criteria to apply toward documentation. I think his # 2
best sums up what most of us normally gauge things by. That is, was an item in
question known to have been in common use during a certain time, within a
particular geographic region as evidenced by trade records, paintings of the
period, journal entries etc.
       An article in Tomahawk and Longrifle a couple of years ago covered this
issue very succinctly. I wish I could remember who wrote it. Was it you Jerry?
or maybe Clay? Anyway it laid down some good criteria to go by. Historically
accurate? Historically available? Historically acceptable, I believe were the
areas the author  defined. Someone refresh my memory as to who wrote the
article and what issue it was in.
        Tom also used the word "purist" to describe those who require
verifiable documentation. I've known others to use words such as "Disciples of
documentation," or the more harsh "Documentation Nazi's" to describe the same.
Someone once suggested the following classifications to describe the differing
levels of re-enactors enthusiasm when it comes to authenticity. Class A
Purist, Class B Semi-Purist and Class C Non-purist. I liked that and adopted
it for use in my own mind.
        I believe the pursuit of authenticity is a must in our craft.  We must
apply some standards to judge things by, other wise it is left wide open to
speculation and all sorts of anachronisms can arise. To me it's a matter of
what is true and what isn't.
     So Tom, keep watching and maybe you'll find an answer.

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 21:42:39 -0800
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

    Since I reinact a Hudson's Bay Company 1829 Snake River brigade trapper
within a museum at the diorama, I have a different problem when it comes to
documentation, or what the public "thinks" a HBC or Mountain Man ought to
look like!
    I have chosen to wear tanish dirty, hight waisted canvas pants with
dirty white cotton suspenders. My wife has made me a cotton (woven) natural
brown and tan vertical striped, button to the neck shirt. With this I wear
mocs, a big leather belt with forged buckle, with knife and hawk on the
belt. A black felt block hat that I cut myself and a choker patterned after
a Nez Perce piece in the museum.
    First question is usually.."Why arn't you wearing buckskin?" Its usually
pretty easy to get past this, but this is what the general public believes.
I would give my left ___ to have some of you experts and vous specialists
come and help me with what amounts to education. Boy when I get to telling
how we trap beaver, what we use for bait (that sometimes is tricky), how we
dry the skins, eat the tail, etc.....
    The scene has a flintlock gun, bars of lead for bullets, a bullet mold,
powder horn, both types of tents (wedge and lean-to), clay pipe and twist
tobacco, etc, etc. enough stuff to talk for hours.
    Today after everyone had gone to the next part of the museum, one guy
came up to me and said he "does vous and blackpowder!" Damn, thought I was
had.. He was great... he told me all about shooting, how to load, etc. He
also looked at the gun in the scene and guessed at it's caliber (.45).
    Kinda lost my point in rambling on here... but sure would encourage you
guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge.
    The Books of Buckskinning and this list have been my best source of
information. Thanks for listening.
Gail Carbiener
aka HBC Hugo Williams

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 21:52:44 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

Gail Carbiener wrote:

>     Since I reinact a Hudson's Bay Company 1829 Snake River brigade trapper
> within a museum at the diorama, I have a different problem when it comes to
> documentation, or what the public "thinks" a HBC or Mountain Man ought to
> look like!

Gail,

Sounds like fun. So where are you doing this? Give us a clue and we can come
give you a bad time! <BG> You just need to keep doing what the rest of us are
doing, gett'in some learn'in. Why are you wearing an indian choker? You some
kind'a breed? <G>. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>     I have chosen to wear tanish dirty, hight waisted canvas pants with
> dirty white cotton suspenders. My wife has made me a cotton (woven) natural
> brown and tan vertical striped, button to the neck shirt. With this I wear
> mocs, a big leather belt with forged buckle, with knife and hawk on the
> belt. A black felt block hat that I cut myself and a choker patterned after
> a Nez Perce piece in the museum.
>     First question is usually.."Why arn't you wearing buckskin?" Its usually
> pretty easy to get past this, but this is what the general public believes.
> I would give my left ___ to have some of you experts and vous specialists
> come and help me with what amounts to education. Boy when I get to telling
> how we trap beaver, what we use for bait (that sometimes is tricky), how we
> dry the skins, eat the tail, etc.....
>     The scene has a flintlock gun, bars of lead for bullets, a bullet mold,
> powder horn, both types of tents (wedge and lean-to), clay pipe and twist
> tobacco, etc, etc. enough stuff to talk for hours.
>     Today after everyone had gone to the next part of the museum, one guy
> came up to me and said he "does vous and blackpowder!" Damn, thought I was
> had.. He was great... he told me all about shooting, how to load, etc. He
> also looked at the gun in the scene and guessed at it's caliber (.45).
>     Kinda lost my point in rambling on here... but sure would encourage you
> guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge.
>     The Books of Buckskinning and this list have been my best source of
> information. Thanks for listening.
> Gail Carbiener
> aka HBC Hugo Williams

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:24:18 -0800
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

Capt.
    I'm at The High Desert Museum near Bend, Oregon. Part of my persona
includes me being married to "Numa" a Nez Perce. She's not in the scene, but
I let everyone know all the work she does. She made the chocker. Got that
idea from the book about John Work and his 1830-31 HBC trip to the Snake
River plains.
    Capt I'd love to have you drop by!  If your in your buckskin, I'll know
ya. :)
Gail Carbiener
aks HBC Hugo Williams
=================================

>Sounds like fun. So where are you doing this? Give us a clue and we can
come
>give you a bad time! <BG> You just need to keep doing what the rest of us
are
>doing, gett'in some learn'in. Why are you wearing an indian choker? You
some
>kind'a breed? <G>. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:48:25 -0800 (PST)
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

Todd,

You have a good memory.  I wrote the article you speak of in the T&LR.  It
took me about 30 minutes of looking through old issues but I found it.  It
was in the February (Winter) 1996 isssue and was titled, "What do you want,
to be Historically Accurate or Correct?"  It starts on page 32.

This is a question I usually don't address much with this or any group
because I have my own opinion and nothing anyone says will change it.  Since
it has been brought up (along with my article) I will add my 2 cents and the
reasoning behind what I wrote.

Stated quite simply, if an item, clothing, etc. cannot be documented as
available and reasonably accessible to a mountaineer during the American Fur
Trade (1800-1840 and these dates can have variances) then I usually don't
use the item.  I say usually because I make a few exceptions, which are
reasonable to me depending on the situation and/or issue.  What I am talking
about here has to do with the comfort of my family and the funds I have
available to spend on an item.  An example is, at a commercial Rendezvous
where my wife and daughters attend with me, I use a pyramid and/or miner's
tent.  Although there is some documentation that it might have been used at
Rendezvous, I don't buy it.

Knowing that it is not exactly correct, I still choose to use the pyramid
tent simply because I don't want to spend my money on another shelter (I
would rather spend it on horses and related gear that is historically
correct), it is comfortable for my family (the tent is 15' x 15' x 9' high)
and easy to put up.  If my family does not attend or I attend an AMM
function, I only use a diamond fly or sleep under the stars.  YES, this is a
compromise, but one I can live with.  That is the point, though.  No one
should criticize another person's compromises; it is their view of what is
acceptible or not and that is THEIR reality.

Other than this one item, I believe everything else I use is Historically
Correct.  I have reasonable documentation on my clothing, guns/accessories
and horse gear (saddle and tack.)  That is what I choose to do.  Others are
less strict and that is their business and right to feel that way; they just
play the game by a different set of rules that I do.  Neither is right or
wrong, just different.

Just my opinion.

Best Regards & Happy New Year,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 11:48 PM 1/2/99 EST, you wrote:
>Once again the question of documentation has been raised, this time by Tom. He
>states that he is following the Guernsey Frock thread with interest to see
>what sort of responses come back with reference to documentation.
>
>       An article in Tomahawk and Longrifle a couple of years ago covered this
>issue very succinctly. I wish I could remember who wrote it. Was it you Jerry?
>or maybe Clay? Anyway it laid down some good criteria to go by. Historically
>accurate? Historically available? Historically acceptable, I believe were the
>areas the author  defined. Someone refresh my memory as to who wrote the
>article and what issue it was in.

>     So Tom, keep watching and maybe you'll find an answer.
>
>Todd Glover
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:11:07 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks

Tom, Ceramic pumps, and the like, are acceptable for use at an AMM
function.  Keep them hidden, as well as possible.  Unfortunetly, all
water should be considered with suspicion.  The authentic experience
should not include sickness due to contaminated water.  Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:36:11 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

Gail, You wrote........ but sure would encourage you
guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge.
Some of us do.  In my area we have a 'doin's' at the local Mission.  It
is a 2,000 acre State Park, with a rather complete "working mission".  We
do this two weekends a year.  It's a great opportunity for a couple of
dozen AMM members to get together.  We set up a camp of 'Trail Weary'
trappers/explorers.  We interact with the Mission's Docents, and the
public visitors.  We do this the 4th weekend in March, and the 4th
weekend in August.  I know some guys, including me, who have put on
demonstrations at local schools.  There is a strict law here in Calif.,
No guns anywhere near a school!!!    My sons school let me right in with
them, no checks, etc...  The school was glad to get a'real' history
lesson.  Have fun with the HBC demonstration.  Just keep doing your
homework...      Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 07:47:34 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide?

I've found some references to leather capots in my reading of W. Canadian
fur trade journals, 1774-1821. Also, a caribou-hide garment called a 'toggy'
was worn by HBC men in the Hudson's Bay area.

In haste,
A.G.
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:03:13 -0600
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

Well said brother ! ! ! We all make concessions, some more than others, but
as long as we stay within the proper boundaries that is acceptable. The
fact is we live in the 20th century. We have to deal with water that is not
safe to drink, land use restrictions transportation problems, etc. We also
have to be able to get up and go to work on Mon. and be able to function on
a reasonable level. That should not be used as a excuse to conduct
ourselves, and maintain our camps in a manner that offends others. There
will always be those who might disagree but I don't think that can be
avoided. Having said all that, we should keep in mind where we are. The
level of authinticity required and expected at a A.M.M function is and
should be higher than that  expected at a club vous or a dog and pony show.
I may have stirred up another can of worms with these comments, but I hope
not.
Pendleton #1572

- ----------
> From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question
> Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 12:48 AM
>
> Todd,
>
> You have a good memory.  I wrote the article you speak of in the T&LR.
It
> took me about 30 minutes of looking through old issues but I found it.
It
> was in the February (Winter) 1996 isssue and was titled, "What do you
want,
> to be Historically Accurate or Correct?"  It starts on page 32.
>
> This is a question I usually don't address much with this or any group
> because I have my own opinion and nothing anyone says will change it.
Since
> it has been brought up (along with my article) I will add my 2 cents and
the
> reasoning behind what I wrote.
>
> Stated quite simply, if an item, clothing, etc. cannot be documented as
> available and reasonably accessible to a mountaineer during the American
Fur
> Trade (1800-1840 and these dates can have variances) then I usually don't
> use the item.  I say usually because I make a few exceptions, which are
> reasonable to me depending on the situation and/or issue.  What I am
talking
> about here has to do with the comfort of my family and the funds I have
> available to spend on an item.  An example is, at a commercial Rendezvous
> where my wife and daughters attend with me, I use a pyramid and/or
miner's
> tent.  Although there is some documentation that it might have been used
at
> Rendezvous, I don't buy it.
>
> Knowing that it is not exactly correct, I still choose to use the pyramid
> tent simply because I don't want to spend my money on another shelter (I
> would rather spend it on horses and related gear that is historically
> correct), it is comfortable for my family (the tent is 15' x 15' x 9'
high)
> and easy to put up.  If my family does not attend or I attend an AMM
> function, I only use a diamond fly or sleep under the stars.  YES, this
is a
> compromise, but one I can live with.  That is the point, though.  No one
> should criticize another person's compromises; it is their view of what
is
> acceptible or not and that is THEIR reality.
>
> Other than this one item, I believe everything else I use is Historically
> Correct.  I have reasonable documentation on my clothing,
guns/accessories
> and horse gear (saddle and tack.)  That is what I choose to do.  Others
are
> less strict and that is their business and right to feel that way; they
just
> play the game by a different set of rules that I do.  Neither is right or
> wrong, just different.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Best Regards & Happy New Year,
>
> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
____________________________________________________________________________
____
>
> At 11:48 PM 1/2/99 EST, you wrote:
> >Once again the question of documentation has been raised, this time by
Tom. He
> >states that he is following the Guernsey Frock thread with interest to
see
> >what sort of responses come back with reference to documentation.
> >
> >       An article in Tomahawk and Longrifle a couple of years ago
covered this
> >issue very succinctly. I wish I could remember who wrote it. Was it you
Jerry?
> >or maybe Clay? Anyway it laid down some good criteria to go by.
Historically
> >accurate? Historically available? Historically acceptable, I believe
were the
> >areas the author  defined. Someone refresh my memory as to who wrote the
> >article and what issue it was in.
>
> >     So Tom, keep watching and maybe you'll find an answer.
> >
> >Todd Glover
> >
> >
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:25:25 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

yellow rose/pendleton wrote:
>
> Well said brother ! ! ! We all make concessions, some more than others, but
> as long as we stay within the proper boundaries that is acceptable. The
> fact is we live in the 20th century. We have to deal with water that is not
> safe to drink, land use restrictions transportation problems, etc. We also
> have to be able to get up and go to work on Mon. and be able to function on
> a reasonable level. That should not be used as a excuse to conduct
> ourselves, and maintain our camps in a manner that offends others. There
> will always be those who might disagree but I don't think that can be
> avoided. Having said all that, we should keep in mind where we are. The
> level of authinticity required and expected at a A.M.M function is and
> should be higher than that  expected at a club vous or a dog and pony show.
> I may have stirred up another can of worms with these comments, but I hope
> not.

I'd agree 100%!  With the NMLRA allowing just about anything, it's
even more important for the AMM to make CERTAIN it stays "pure."

Fred

- --
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:44:51 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

Mr. Williams,

Sounds like fun. I shall make every effort to stop by when next in your area.
Perhaps you could also advise us when we may find you in residence? I have been
meaning to make an expedition to that area of the Oregon Country to apprise
myself and my partners as to the opportunities available to enterprising
individuals. The last such trip was into the "Sisters" area where I and several
others (our guide was a Mr. Steve Alli ), were forced to take overnight shelter
in a " Rock House". Not in itself a pleasant experience since at any moment we
or rather I expected the roof to meet with the floor with me in-between. I
finally took my bed roll out under the open sky and spent the rest of the night
in safe rain. There was a nice stream just below the Rock House that had it's
beginning in a beautiful mountain lake just a few miles up from where we were.
Perhaps you are familiar with this?

And give my regards to your lovely wife. Hoping to hear from you soon, I
remain........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:03:57 -0800
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public

Hardtack:
    Yeh, I should have thought that some of you vou guys would have "gone
public". Thanks for bringing me up. I was caught up in the idea that most of
the time you all were out in the woods going primative! Hope to catch one of
you some day, so I can learn more! Thanks for the encouragement.
    Have a question.......... what kind of container do you use to keep your
charcloth dry?
Gail Carbiener
aks HBC Hugo Williams
===============================================

>Some of us do.  In my area we have a 'doin's' at the local Mission.  It
>is a 2,000 acre State Park, with a rather complete "working mission".  We
>do this two weekends a year.  It's a great opportunity for a couple of
>dozen AMM members to get together.  We set up a camp of 'Trail Weary'
>trappers/explorers.  We interact with the Mission's Docents, and the
>public visitors.  We do this the 4th weekend in March, and the 4th
>weekend in August.  I know some guys, including me, who have put on
>demonstrations at local schools.  There is a strict law here in Calif.,
>No guns anywhere near a school!!!    My sons school let me right in with
>them, no checks, etc...  The school was glad to get a'real' history
>lesson.  Have fun with the HBC demonstration.  Just keep doing your
>homework...      Hardtack

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:57:22 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public

Gail,  Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc....  Some of us
feel it is important to do a public event every once in awhile.  We share
our skills and talents, in the hopes of keeping these skills alive.  I
keep my tinder in a two piece, press together , tin can.  At the point
where the cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam.
Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps things
dry.    Hardtack

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:24:25 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public

Hardtack,
 I have been sealing my tin with pine pitch  w/ a touch of wax (more
pliable) around the inside rim. Quit usin Charcloth years ago, love punk
wood and tree fungus..More handy..
Yr Brother
Dennis
Ohio

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
- -----Original Message-----
From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public


>Gail,  Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc....  Some of us
>feel it is important to do a public event every once in awhile.  We share
>our skills and talents, in the hopes of keeping these skills alive.  I
>keep my tinder in a two piece, press together , tin can.  At the point
>where the cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam.
>Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps things
>dry.    Hardtack
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

------------------------------

Date: 03 Jan 99 16:10:18 -0700
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question

We have been off the list for a few days, so hope I don't sound like an
idiot, but what is the description of a guernsey frock.  Not familiar with
the name.
AS for making concessions, I don't see how in this day and age we can
keep from it.  Especially in 3 areas.
Water - It would be the height of stupidity to try to drink outdoors
water, especially here in Colorado.  Either take it with you or filter it.
Anybody that wants to argue that one can pay the emergency room bill.
Food - We can't go camping five or six times a year and live off the
land.  We have too many laws and anybody that waznts to argue this one can pay
the fine.
Medicines - I really can't see someone leaving his insulin at home for a
week just to be more authentic.  Anybody that wants to argue this one can
bury that guy.
The one for me that is questionable is winter sleeping.  I know that the
original mountain men chopped off branches to put under their beds to
insulate them from the ground.  I would certainly not recommend doing that
these days.  So what would be a reasonable alternative?
So for me, yes we do have to make compromises.  No mor that we have to,
keep them under wraps as much as possible and only when we aabsolutely have
to.
Don Keas


Fred A. Miller wrote:
>yellow rose/pendleton wrote:
>>
>> Well said brother ! ! ! We all make concessions, some more than
others, but
>> as long as we stay within the proper boundaries that is acceptable.
The
>> fact is we live in the 20th century. We have to deal with water that
is not
>> safe to drink, land use restrictions transportation problems, etc. We
also
>> have to be able to get up and go to work on Mon. and be able to
function on
>> a reasonable level. That should not be used as a excuse to conduct
>> ourselves, and maintain our camps in a manner that offends others.
There
>> will always be those who might disagree but I don't think that can be
>> avoided. Having said all that, we should keep in mind where we are.
The
>> level of authinticity required and expected at a A.M.M function is and
>> should be higher than that  expected at a club vous or a dog and pony
show.
>> I may have stirred up another can of worms with these comments, but I
hope
>> not.
>
>I'd agree 100%!  With the NMLRA allowing just about anything, it's
>even more important for the AMM to make CERTAIN it stays "pure."
>
>Fred
>
>--
>"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 18:16:11 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public

On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:03:57 -0800 "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
writes:

>    Have a question.......... what kind of container do you use to
>keep your
>charcloth dry?

I use a cap box most of the time it seals tight and is almost water proof
if i an going to be out for a while I use a keewee shoe polish tin that I
have cleaned out---and make fresh if reqd--over the camp fire---have a
cap box in my shooting bag and all i hav to carry is the cotton cloth---

>Gail Carbiener
>aks HBC Hugo Williams
>===============================================

  There is a strict law here in
>Calif.,
>>No guns anywhere near a school!!!

that law i believe is nation wide ---that is why i quit doing show and
tells at schools---still do them for the scouts and stuff but not within
500 ft of a school yard or school building .
the gun law is almost like the drug law---zero tollerance and no
exceptions
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:08:51 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public

> that law i believe is nation wide ---that is why i quit doing show and
>  tells at schools---still do them for the scouts and stuff but not within
>  500 ft of a school yard or school building .
>  the gun law is almost like the drug law---zero tollerance and no
>  exceptions

Actually, there are exceptions.  We use school gyms and classrooms extensively
for Hunter Education classes.  Signed statements from the Principal or
Superintendent are required stating that it is OK to have guns on the premises
and that they are for educational purposes.  However, no live ammo or powder
allowed.

Dave Kanger

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #209
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