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hist_text-digest       Saturday, January 2 1999       Volume 01 : Number 208




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Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:34:59 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guernsey froks

Guernsey frocks were indeed knitted wool upper
body garments that we would call sweaters today.
They were prominently associated with
seararers/fishermen from the Gurnsey Island and so
received that name.  I do not know when they were
earliest used.  They were clearly available in
this country (whether made here or abroad) in the
early 19th century and moreover were definately
available in the west.  We found records of a
number of sales of guernsey frocks to mountain men
types at Ft Hall in the mid-1830s.  There is more
information about these garments in the piece I
co-authored on trapper clothing in the BOB VII.
If you are interested you should check it out.
Most of the descriptions and photos of 19th
century guernsey frocks show a long sleeve, "crew
neck" about waist length or slightly longer
pull-over garment. The prevalent color seems to
have been dark--blue or black.  Some refernces to
horizontal stripes can be found, and these may
have been more popular with sailors.  An excellent
modern replication is the Fillson Fisherman's
Sweater.  It is dark blue and very tightly and
heavily knitted of worsted.  They are pricey but
very high quality and made in USA.  I just got one
for Christmas and plan to use in on my next winter
event (which, up north here, is any time other
than mid-July).
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:13:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?

Lee,


You have no doubt read Beth Gilguns article in the latest Muzzleloader by now.
I think it pretty well answers your question about the common use of knit
items. I was astounded at how many knit stockings were available. I still
wonder how much woolen knit materials were brought "upriver" or to rendezvous.
Perhaps some of our inventory and trade list experts amoung the group can give
some answers.

Happy New Year Mate!

Todd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:13:08 PST
From: "Verlin Kinsey" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Was Capotes now Book of Buckskinning

Even better is the auction on ebay that ends tomorrow. Item# 51551744
Volumns 1-4 of the Book of Buckskinning Currently less than $30.00 for
the set.

Verlin

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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:30:15 -0700
From: "Lee Cardon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?

For a pilgrim,sure. But it would last only about a year,then what? I
haven't
seen knitted goods in the trade inventories and natives DID NOT knit,so for
a hivernant,I would say other than possibly a tuque(voyageurs cap) I doubt
that knit sweaters,etc. were common.

Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well


Jeff,

There is evidence of native knitting. The Northwest pacific tribes have a
knitting heritage, and the Salish specifically  have a rich knitting
tradition,
the problem being... documenting the time frame that "We" are interested
in.

That is kind of another can of worms though, anybody out there have any
further info on aboriginal knitting habits, items, etc. ?

A sweater on the frontier would certainly not be common, (glad to see
reference made by Allen in previous post to sales of Geurnsey Frocks at
Fort Hall, in the appropriate time period) but as a person were to enter a
fort or some other civilized or semi-civilized area, a Frock might be found
in more common use either because of availability, or possibly because in a
fort or town, storage of clothing would be a lot easier. Knowing what we
know about socks, hats, gloves/mittens and the like being so widely
available, it is just curious to me that there is not more mention of knit
garments.

This sweater question keeps bugging me because I have a suspicion that knit
frocks were more common than previously thought, but I'm out on a limb
because of the low volume of documentation on this item.

I don't have a fully developed personna, but I would start by having some
ocean travel or work in my background, and Salish side-seam moccasins on my
feet, any contact with a tribe, or travel though a trading post that would
have sweaters available, might catch the eye of a salty trapper.

No matter how much of a pilgrim or hivernant you may or may not be, you
will agree that on a cool night, a thick geurnsey frock would be "Another
kind of Comfort" !


Happy New Year,
Lee Cardon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:29:43 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Hair-on deer hides

Many if not most Native tribes west of the bison area made hair-on deer
robes for sleeping and to throw over their shoulders for warmth. This is
documented from early points of contact and from specimens .... though none
that I know of were made into coats or capotes, just blankets and skirts
(men's skirts in N. California).

What Captain Lahti said about deer hides shedding lots of hair is true for
winter hides but there is an exception.

The trick with hair-on deer and similar animals is to use the skins of ones
harvested with a very early winter coat. The hair at this point is thick,
fairly short, and not yet hollow. It does not have the same brittleness
problems that winter hides have. Where we live in Montana the hunting season
is too late for this, but the hunting season occurs perfectly during this
timing in western Oregon and N. California.....generally about October.

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 20:17:26 -0800
From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hugh Glass locale

Rereading the epic of Hugh Glass (under Maj. Henry 1823, chewed by
"grissly bear" and left to die in the care of Fitzgerald and Bridger,
abandoned) I decided to check the locale closely on a modern map. I was
surprised to find that the area of the mauling, which Dale Morgan gives
as 350 miles from Fort Kiowa, up the Grand River, is near an area of
North Dakota where I cut wheat during the summer of 1974. I recall the
area around Reeder and Hettinger, North Dakota as vast rolling prairie,
not the mountains I had pictured in my mind. Since '74 is a long way
away, for me, and I hadn't the leisure to roam the area complete, I was
hoping 'nother reader of this fine list is more familiar with the area
than I be.

If so, could you fill us in on what the area is like, and any more
details of the incident?

BTW, re: the boats thread ... some relevant pix pg 341-345 Carl P.
Russell, Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men.
- --

JW "LRay" Stephens, Squadron Commander; Lobo Solo Squadron
EPP Technician, Primary Color Systems, Inc., Irvine, CA
...
ICQ# 20564775   "mean people suck"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 23:50:17 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?

Jeff wrote:

> For a pilgrim,sure. But it would last only about a year,then what? I
> haven't
> seen knitted goods in the trade inventories and natives DID NOT knit,so for
> a hivernant,I would say other than possibly a tuque(voyageurs cap) I doubt
> that knit sweaters,etc. were common.
>
> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Jeff,

I imagine your Hiverano would take his pelts to the annual rendezvous and trade
for a new Jersey sweater or three like everyone else since there were such
items sent to be traded along with the beads, bells, and other baubles brought
in by the trading partners. And of course as others have pointed out some
native peoples DID KNIT.

Whether they were a common item is hard to say since there are few if any
references to individuals wearing them. But if they were taken, they were
traded or would not be taken again. Of course there is a lot of speculation as
to what they looked like but to say they weren't common is a stretch. There are
some intriguing first person sketches showing what appear to be Jersey sweaters
being worn by experienced trappers. Lost of food for serious thought here and I
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 21:15:12 +1300
From: "Duncan Macready" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?

>Jeff wrote:
>
>> For a pilgrim,sure. But it would last only about a year,then what? I
>> haven't
>> seen knitted goods in the trade inventories and natives DID NOT knit,so
for
>> a hivernant,I would say other than possibly a tuque(voyageurs cap) I
doubt
>> that knit sweaters,etc. were common.
>>
>> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>
>Jeff
>
The hand knitted  Jersey , made from home spun ,greasy (un scoured), coarse.
long stapled. wool available in those days would have wearing, warming,and
weather resisting , properties, that those of you who have never worn such a
garment would find hard to believe.
 These Jerseys are still very popular in the High Mountain areas of New
Zealand. ,with farmers and others who lead hard outdoor lives  often
prefering them over modern synthetics
.
Garments made like this have exceptional insulating properties in cold wet
conditions and mittens or gloves knitted in this way would be the best thing
available for a trapper setting traps in icy cold streams.

The Icelandic and other fishermen new this and used wollen gloves for
hauling lines , They  would dip their gloved hands into the icy sea and a
layer of ice would form on the outside insulating against further cold and
wet.
In  the days  of rope ski tows ,before chair lifts, where one had to hold on
to a wet rope to go up the mountain, greasy wool mittens would outlast
leather ones and keep warmer.

I'm not saying they did ,but they certainly could and the garment would have
been ideal.
regards
Cutfinger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 07:31:15 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps

For questions on traps, why don't you check with the National Trappers Assn.
They have many trappers who are trap collectors.  They can be reached at
[e-mail] and at http://www.nationaltrappers.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 09:29:09 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?

   >The hand knitted  Jersey , made from home spun ,greasy (un scoured),
   >coarse. long stapled. wool available in those days would have
   >wearing, warming,and weather resisting , properties, that those of
   >you who have never worn such a garment would find hard to believe.
I have several(2 sweaters,3 or 4 pairs of mitts,and 2 woven blankets) and it
is not hard to believe.
BUT WHERE IS THE DOCUMENTATION?
   >Garments made like this have exceptional insulating properties in
   >cold wet conditions and mittens or gloves knitted in this way would
   >be the best thing available for a trapper setting traps in icy cold
   >streams.
I agree,but where is the DOCUMENTATION?
   >The Icelandic and other fishermen new this and used wollen gloves
   >for hauling lines , They  would dip their gloved hands into the icy
   >sea and a layer of ice would form on the outside insulating against
   >further cold and wet.
Here we have documentation but not in our beloved mountains,and not
 at the right time period
   >I'm not saying they did ,but they certainly could and the garment
   >would have been ideal.
I am sorry,I would love to use all my wool garments,but without
documentation,I would be looked at as another "WANNABE farb".

     Let me present an example: I've done an Ottawa warrior personna for
laughs once in a while. The major drawback to doing it regularly,and I enjoy
doing it,is the fact that I wear glasses and cannot wear contacts.  I really
wanted to do my warrior personna so I kept asking and searching. I now have
the documentation I need to wear my specs AND portray my Ottawa warrior.
First example,1730's or 1740's Connestoga Town,(eastern)Pennsylvania,an
adult male Native buried there wearing brass framed specticles. Next is
White Eyes (a Delaware leader)murdered in Pittsburgh in the Fall of 1778,in
his paint bag were a pair of spectacles. Chota,Tennessee;Cherokee leader
Oconstota died in 1783 and among the possessions buried with him were a pair
of iron rimmed spectacles. Saugatuck,Michigan extensive native cemetary
(Ottawa and Pottowatamie)
excavated in 1929. Touchmarks on trade silver here would date the site from
ca.1780-1812. Among the artifacts recovered were a pair of brass rimmed
specticles.
     You see there are many things I wuold like to use,but with out
documentation its useless. A pilgrim might have a sweater(or smock of you
prefer),but unless someone can list documents showing these articles I
cannot accept them. I am more than willing to be proven wrong,just show me
where the proof is. Once again we are caught in a what could have been
versus what we know was in use. And many of us are restricted(by group or
self)to documentable facts.

Sources: Frontier Advance on the Upper Ohio 1778-1779. Louise P.
Kellogg,State Historical Society of Wisconsin,1916
Overhill Cherokee Archaeology at Chota-Tanasee. Gerald F. Schoedl,
University of Tennesee,1986
Indian Culture and European Trade Goods. George I. Quimby University of
Wisconsin Press,1966 (Quimby was employed by the Field Museum of Natural
History in Chicago)
Personal observation of La52/74 by Alan Gutchess and R.S. Stephenson, PMHC
collection,Harrisburg,Pa. (personal conversation with Alan Gutchess)
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Why do we wash bath towels? Aren't we clean when we use them?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:54:30 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?

The call for documentation from Jeff Powers is well received.  We all could do
a better job of providing references and resources for information we present
in this forum.  Otherwise, we spout opinions and often advance myths and
folflore.  Thanks to Jeff for this reminder!

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 00:10:42 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Parfleche primary sources

Does anyone know any primary source descriptions of the parfleche making
process from the early to mid 1800's. The earliest source I know is Colonel
Richard Irving Dodge's based on his experiences from the 1840's to 1870's.

I'm partially curious if pounding the hair off is actually described in any
period texts (it is not mentioned in Dodge's account, in his, parfleche is
defined as rawhide made by slipping the hair with a wood-ash lye).

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 08:38:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps

found this newhouse 114 listed in the price collectors guide by robert
vance for firther information contact me at [e-mail]




- ---mmorgan  wrote:
>
> Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse
#114".  It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long.  I can't read
anything on the pan and was wondering if this could be the right
number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am
familiar with.  Thanks in advance.  Michael in Kansas
>
<HR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Hi! I just bought a group of traps and
one was
labeled "newhouse #114".á It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft.
long.á I can't read anything on the pan and was wondering if this
could be
the right number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I
am
familiar with.á Thanks in advance.á Michael in
Kansas</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


==


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:54:03 -0600
From: Jerry Anderson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hugh Glass locale

JW Stephens wrote:
>
> Rereading the epic of Hugh Glass (under Maj. Henry 1823, chewed by
> "grissly bear" and left to die in the care of Fitzgerald and Bridger,
> abandoned) I decided to check the locale closely on a modern map. I was
> surprised to find that the area of the mauling, which Dale Morgan gives
> as 350 miles from Fort Kiowa, up the Grand River, is near an area of
> North Dakota where I cut wheat during the summer of 1974. I recall the
> area around Reeder and Hettinger, North Dakota as vast rolling prairie,
> not the mountains I had pictured in my mind. Since '74 is a long way
> away, for me, and I hadn't the leisure to roam the area complete, I was
> hoping 'nother reader of this fine list is more familiar with the area
> than I be.
>
> If so, could you fill us in on what the area is like, and any more
> details of the incident?
>
I live in Bismarck, ND, and am familiar with the area that you are
asking about. You are right, it's a long way from mountains, or even
from the Black Hills, which can be fairly mountainous. I would describe
the area as semi-arid steppe--short grass prairie with ash and
cottonwood in the creek-bottoms and along what few watercourses that
could be desribed as rivers. Also included could be areas of "badlands"
and buttes and ridges and rocky outcrops, but mostly, as you remembered,
miles and miles of prairie. Still not a good place for a long walk.

Jerry Anderson
Along the (Frozen) Missouri River

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #208
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