ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n192

Internet Message Format | 1998-12-15 | 46KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #192
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest      Tuesday, December 15 1998      Volume 01 : Number 192




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:56:46 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

Hardtack,

HIP, HIP, HU-RRAY Repeted three times with sincere feeling by.........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:

> Dear Andrea,  I hope that no one was 'judging  your tastes, etc...  I
> believe what was said was only in keeping a historical perspective (which
> is what the AMM is all about).  When reading your blanket question, my
> thought was - Pendelton blankets is what you want-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:47:03 -0800
From: David Eichman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

New to list.  Am interested in what a farmer might have worn in 1830.
Could anyone recommend a book or perhaps web site that might help.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:47:40 -0800
From: David Eichman <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Farmer.

New to list.  Am interested in what a farmer might have worn in 1830.
Could anyone recommend a book or perhaps web site that might help.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:16:41 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer.

Drop by your local friendly Amish community and take a look around, other=
 than
machine sewing (and a little more modern shoes) things ain't changed much.

For an even better representation with explanation and exciting first person
interpretation visit Connor Prairie 1836 Pioneer Settlement in Noblesville,
IN.

John...



At 08:47 PM 12/14/98 -0800, you wrote:
>New to list.=A0 Am interested in what a farmer might have worn in 1830.=20
>Could anyone recommend a book or perhaps web site that might help.
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:17:02 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer.

David, You didn't mention what area of the country you are in, but if you are
near IN, take Johns advice and visit the Conner Prairie Settlement; in MASS
try Sturbridge Village; in the lower colonies try Williamsburg; in PA visit
Bucks County or any Amish community, etc.  If a taste of reality isn't
available, your local library will have books in the clothing / costuming
sections that will lead you in the right direction.   YHS, Barney P. Fife

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:24:42 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: capotes

   >  Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys????
   >Hardtack
Here's my 3!!!!!!!!
     And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've
seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to the most
elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. They were designed
or cut along lines of early European or Colonial style clothing.Contrary to
todays common belief, it was the French Voyageurs,rather than the American
Indians,who popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the
comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their own
decorations."
     Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including the white,multicolored striped
ones) are about as authentic as one can get,they are well over 200 years
old.Blankets came in a variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney
Mills(another period correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has
been producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and they
are well worth the price!)
 ) the purchasers indicated that they
wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors that best pleased
the Indians of Virginia.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night!

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:23:20 -0800
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

three cheers from me too.  iron tongue

Pat Quilter wrote:

> I would like to add my vote of appreciation for Andrea's many thorough
> explanations of sewing and tailoring technique. These methods are useful to
> everyone learning to survive with whatever's available, and I believe that
> is a common thread in these discussions.
> Many persons on this list take pride in hewing to an old-fashioned sense of
> logic, factual integrity, and straightforward use of language. To such
> persons, "judging" is an everyday act of discriminating the bad and
> worthless from the good and valued. I'm afraid that "judging",
> "discrimination" and for that matter, logic, are rejected by many people
> today, including our educational establishment, because such distinctions
> might make somebody feel bad.
> It's perfectly clear to me that somebody like Andrea, who has taken the time
> to develop and send us clear, useful, and thoughtful instructions on a topic
> we all need, should have no fear of being "judged" and should look forward
> with pride to the thanks she should receive. Naturally, our personal taste
> in clothing is our own business; there are all kinds of events where
> appropriate clothing is expected, and we all have methods of finding our
> what those standards are, and whether we want to attend or not under the
> circumstances.
> So from me, three cheers, thanks, and be assured I have archived your
> directions for that day when I next tackle a garment project.
> Pat Quilter, AMM #1658
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 2:59 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
>
>         I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther
> regarding
> replica and other types of clothing.  The subject of any person's clothing,
> I
> believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals
> from past times or those in the present.  Clothing is a representation of a
> person's personal expression in a very direct way.  Therefore, I believe a
> certain amount of respect is warranted.
>
>         My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment,
> expanded
> options, and freedom of choice.  There is no place in my work for setting
> strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss
> different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my
> own
> personal choices and helping other people to make theirs.  My interest in
> replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
> design choices judged.
>
>         If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have
> reached an
> impasse because this is the way I work and live.  I will probably really
> catch
> it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming from.
>
> Thank you,
> Andrea Moore

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:05:17 -0500
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Farmer.

> in PA visit
> Bucks County or any Amish community, etc.
    [Mill, Kirk]  in PA, you want to go to Lancaster Co. or some parts
of Berks Co. Bucks Co. is close but no cigar.
    Kirk Mill

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:16:48 -0800
From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...

Matt  Richards,

Thanks for the clarification on the "mules ear"/"mullien" question.

John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:22:44 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Thank you, please read

Dear MtMan Friends,

    Thank you for your letters.  I read all of them carefully.  I thank you for
your integrity and honesty.  I respect your efforts to keep history alive
through your reenactments, meticulous research and careful attention to
detail.

    I am a designer and an inventor.  In my work, limitations, restrictions, and
boundaries of any kind are unthinkable.  It is obvious that we are not
compatible mainly due to the fact that our orientation and goals differ
widely.  I am very sorry because I really love you people (not romantically,
of course, but rather "heart to heart").  I have particularly enjoyed our
discussions on the various innovative and interesting ways people used to do
things--that was fun!  . . . wishing you success.

I will love all of you forever,
Andrea Moore
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:00:32 -0500
From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes

Jeff Powers wrote:
>
>    >  Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys????
>    >Hardtack
> Here's my 3!!!!!!!!
>      And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've
> seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to the most
> elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. They were designed
> or cut along lines of early European or Colonial style clothing.Contrary to
> todays common belief, it was the French Voyageurs,rather than the American
> Indians,who popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the
> comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their own
> decorations."
>      Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including the white,multicolored striped
> ones) are about as authentic as one can get,they are well over 200 years
> old.Blankets came in a variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney
> Mills(another period correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has
> been producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and they
> are well worth the price!)
>  ) the purchasers indicated that they
> wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors that best pleased
> the Indians of Virginia.
> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>
> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night!
>
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

  Jeff,
 Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket makers
 Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and still do
not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi striped blankets is
around 1817 it was made only to fight the chiefs blankets sells of the
solid with black stripe balankets were hit hard because of the chiefs
blankets some the with multi stripe or duffle blanket was made. the
firit loom in witney england was in the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas
Early the founder of the frim was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved
their seal from the queen, but their blankets were already an article of
trade.As for capotes there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming
from england.

                               paul mueller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:04:20 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

give that girl a double round ---darlin it's tough being around some of
these old salts and remember dont be thick skin this is a discussion
group and most of the people here have a lot of time invested  doing
proper and extensive reasearch---one thing for sure if it is period
correct or not someone will give you the facts and references---stay with
us and if there is anything I can help you with feel free to drop me a
note offline---myself as well as others on the list get a little testy at
times so please bear with us and you got my support---

best to you and have a good holiday season---

cheer---cheer---cheer--cheer--cheer--

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:39:19 EST
From: [e-mail] (Greg N Bosen Bosen)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

hey tom,

like was mentioned before it was mounted on the wagon, and counted the
revolutions of the wheel.  if you measure the wheel and multiply that by
the number of revolutions you can get an accurate measurement.  the
wagons followed strict maps to find where the one before them planeted
corn and grain and stashed food stuffs.  they had a amazing system of
communication and supported the ones behind them (days, seasons, or
years). in respect to the inventor of the odometer his name is Orson
Pratt.  he was a briliant scientist and faithful Latter Day Saint
(mormon) apostle.  he was asked to devise a method to count the distance
traveled.  he started with a rag tied to the wheel and later built this
device. all he had to do was recalibrate it in the morning and in the
evening he would check and record the clicks.  the Mormon History Museum
in Salt Lake City has one mounted on a wagon, ready for use.

i hope that clears some up one the rhyme and reason to the odometer.

Greg Bosen

ps my brother did a engenering project on this odometer he can fill in
more details is wanted.


On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:31:07 EST [e-mail] writes:
>Hi, Allen
>
>The Mormons had an odometer. There is one of them in the Scottsbluff
>NM. I
>have picture somewhere. I'll dig it out for you. I have also heard
>they
>assigned one of the kids to count the revolutions of a wheel. The kids
>probably invented the odometer.
>
>Tom Laidlaw
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:54:05 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

Please Buck, Cathy Smith is not that much of an expert on Plains Indians,
(especially the men)
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:04:02 +0000 (GMT)
From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thank you, please read

We (or at least I) will miss you.




- [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Dear MtMan Friends,
>
>     Thank you for your letters.  I read all of them carefully.  I thank
you for
> your integrity and honesty.  I respect your efforts to keep history
alive
> through your reenactments, meticulous research and careful attention
to
> detail.
>
>     I am a designer and an inventor.  In my work, limitations,
restrictions, and
> boundaries of any kind are unthinkable.  It is obvious that we are not
> compatible mainly due to the fact that our orientation and goals
differ
> widely.  I am very sorry because I really love you people (not
romantically,
> of course, but rather "heart to heart").  I have particularly
enjoyed our
> discussions on the various innovative and interesting ways people
used to do
> things--that was fun!  . . . wishing you success.
>
> I will love all of you forever,
> Andrea Moore
> [e-mail]
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:03:09 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mileage

Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
There are later l9th century photos of the army
using the same device.
I'm still interested in any historic info on
milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
mentioned a wheel odometer.
Any more thoughts/info out there?
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:43:09 -0700
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in
their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a
wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable
celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other
ideas?

Vic

>Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
>There are later l9th century photos of the army
>using the same device.
>I'm still interested in any historic info on
>milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
>Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
>HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
>mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
>mentioned a wheel odometer.
>Any more thoughts/info out there?
>Allen Chronister


Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:54:57 -0500
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Posting

     I know what you are going through and probably even thinking.  You
don't hang around this stuff for over 45 years and not pick up on the
things that go on.  (I started realllllllll young)  But you have great
skills and these guys have learned from you.  No one was putting you
down.  Historic re-enactment is exactly what it is.  RE-ENACTMENT.  You
recreate that time period to the last detail.   I do several time
periods so that I can express myself and my creativity to the fullest.
To be over creative looses the essence of the time you want to do, if
that is what you want to do.  Back then these people were not as free as
we would tend to think they were.  The morals, dress codes of white and
Indian, materials you could get  for the time, and restrictions of
travel, weather, and surviving put a definite limitation on what you
wear.  MOST of today's rendezvous are a sight of what I call "Modern
1990's Buckskinner Fashion Wear".  If it is made from fur, feathers,
leather or beads....it is legal.   They have very little to do with what
was actually worn or materials used in the very early 1800's.
      These "gentleman" of the AMM are here to share and learn
information from each other.  We have all gotten into some good old drag
out fights on this sight.  But that is what makes it so good and
educational.   We learn.   We change our ideas.  We change other peoples
ideas.   And we step one step up to make a better impression.   The
perfect mountain died in the mid 1800s'.  We are just trying to figure
out how they did it,   No one left a manual.


Linda Holley

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:13:15 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

Joe,
The work that Cathy was doing for "Dances w/Wolves" and "Son of Morning
Star" was with the women clothing, assc. and Jerry Fartherhold did most of
the men's stuff. Their hands were tied to a point with budget and the
want-a-bee's trying to impress the directors. She must know something from
her writings and she has the job.

Several of us helped Jerry at "Son of Morning Star", checking in clothing,
etc. on a weekend in route to canoe the Upper Missouri, everyone was getting
tired of how the directors didn't like this or that of clothing shown them,
even though it was correct. Same old story with Hollywood, "the public won't
know", seems to be the attitude.

Buck

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .


>Please Buck, Cathy Smith is not that much of an expert on Plains Indians,
>(especially the men)
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:25:43 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer.

There are many Amish, Quaker and other clans that still dress and do things
the same way as it was done decades ago. The reason I say decades is (it has
now become a good tourist event to do things the old way), as early as 1950
in Lancaster and York Counties, PA the Quakers and Amish were having the
ovens vented up the wind mills, to blow the smell of fresh baked pies all
over the country, boy did that bring in the tourists to the "plain & fancy"
eating places.

I was raised with these people and went to one of their one room school
houses where my mother was a teacher. The kids are to learn basic math,
reading and know how to do a "dog and pony show". Good business and they
still can keep their style of living when not in the public's eye. Oh, I do
have some Amish relations still in Lancaster and York, still wearing the
balck hats and doing the "say not" or "thee and thoughs" when in the
public's eye, when away the store its plain and simple living.

Buck

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer.


>David, You didn't mention what area of the country you are in, but if you
are
>near IN, take Johns advice and visit the Conner Prairie Settlement; in MASS
>try Sturbridge Village; in the lower colonies try Williamsburg; in PA visit
>Bucks County or any Amish community, etc.  If a taste of reality isn't
>available, your local library will have books in the clothing / costuming
>sections that will lead you in the right direction.   YHS, Barney P. Fife
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:30:30 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: mileage

At the risk of introducing suppositions and opinions where research was
requested --
I can recall numerous journal entries of mileage where it was clear there
were no wheeled vehicles along, such as the Corps of Discovery (who did make
an effort to take their position frequently) and accounts where the party
was thrown onto foot. So we can take it as established that they made
mileage estimates without some form of odometer. Here's the supposition -- I
can only assume that just as we have a pretty good idea how many miles we
cover in a day's driving, these people had a lifetime of experience with
cross-country travel by horse and foot to use. I know, to my chagrin, that
even setting aside the fact that I would be lucky to cover 1/3 the mileage
in a day, as reported by numerous journals (15+ miles a day), the several
times I have retraced my travels on a topo map, I found I only made good a
small fraction of my assumed mileage. Of course I do get lost. Anyway, a
lifetime of travel on the ground could be expected to refine one's
estimates. Anyone with more objective knowledge, please chime in. Could
someone have been charged with counting paces, much like the ancient Romans
(1 mile comes from 1000 paces, "mille" being the latin for 1000, at about 5
feet each (left + right steps).
Pat Quilter

- -----Original Message-----
From: Allen Chronister [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:03 AM
To: chat
Subject: MtMan-List: mileage


Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
There are later l9th century photos of the army
using the same device.
I'm still interested in any historic info on
milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
mentioned a wheel odometer.
Any more thoughts/info out there?
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:52:14 -0700
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:55:48 -0600

One source of Amish goods is Gohn Brothers in Middlebury, Indiana. I =
don't have the zip or phone number at hand, but they are in the book.  =
They have a small catalog of ready made clothes and tons of dry goods, =
including all manner of fasteners, etc, and old style fabrics (some are =
more period than others).  Some fabrics are available in extreme =
widths...bed sheet width, for instance.   They have hardware for making =
suspenders.  All kinds of stuff.   They will take phone and mail orders =
and will ship immediately.  However, I don't think that they accept =
credit cards....I dunno.  Call them.    I have a couple pair of =
broadfall pants purchased ready made and She Who Must Be Obeyed made me =
some drawers of canton flannel---that is lightweight canvas on one side =
and cotton flannel on the other...plenty warm.  Be aware that if you =
order light colored garments they might be sewn with dark, contrasting =
thread, resulting in sort of an 19th century leisure suit.  Ask first.  =
Also, be sure you know what kind of buttons are included, if any.    =
They are aware of  re-enactors and will try to accomodate our needs.  =
They will also make just about any size pants for a few dollars more.  I =
won't tell you how big my pants are, but if Christopher Colombus had =
used them for a sail, he would have been here in 1491.=20
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:56:40 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

Vic,

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is shanks mare. If we consider all the
references made to "so many sleeps" by the indians and remember that these
people (Europeans) lived their lives walking or ridding then I don't find it
hard to believe they knew their distances by simply living them. Consider that
we have little trouble telling some one how many yards the elk was from us
when we shot or even how many "klicks" out we calculated for the artillery
shot. Many with contemporary military skills talk in "so many meters" with the
ease that our forefathers talked of the distance they traveled.

I think we are making this more mysterious than it really was. L&C made
celestial observations regularly which would have given them an idea of how
far they had traveled. I'm sure that they and many others would instinctively
known how far they walked in a given amount of time or if they were mounted or
even afloat. Simple matter of doing it all your life. When we travel today we
speak of traveling maybe 300 to 600 miles depending on our stamina behind the
wheel. They were used to traveling from 15 to maybe 25 miles a day (a guess)
depending on mode of travel available. I bet if we did that every day of our
lives we could tell with accuracy how far we had traveled on a given day and
not necessarily have to resort to a odometer behind the cart. What say you. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt.. Lahti' #1719
Clerk of the "Wilson Price Hunt Party"
NW Brigade

Vic Barkin wrote:

> An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in
> their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a
> wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable
> celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other
> ideas?
>
> Vic
>
> >Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
> >There are later l9th century photos of the army
> >using the same device.
> >I'm still interested in any historic info on
> >milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
> >Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
> >HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
> >mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
> >mentioned a wheel odometer.
> >Any more thoughts/info out there?
> >Allen Chronister
>
> Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>
> AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
> "Aux aliments du pays!"
>
> Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
> Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:52:29 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:55:48 -0600

Gohn Bros.
105 South Main
P.O.Box 111
Middlebury, IN  46540-0111
1-219-825-2400

Here's the address that Lanney was referring to on "Amish and Plain
Clothing".

Buck
___________________
- -----Original Message-----
From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
To: History List <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 6:53 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:55:48 -0600


One source of Amish goods is Gohn Brothers in Middlebury, Indiana. I don't
have the zip or phone number at hand, but they are in the book.  They have a
small catalog of ready made clothes and tons of dry goods, including all
manner of fasteners, etc, and old style fabrics (some are more period than
others).  Some fabrics are available in extreme widths...bed sheet width,
for instance.   They have hardware for making suspenders.  All kinds of
stuff.   They will take phone and mail orders and will ship immediately.
However, I don't think that they accept credit cards....I dunno.  Call them.
I have a couple pair of broadfall pants purchased ready made and She Who
Must Be Obeyed made me some drawers of canton flannel---that is lightweight
canvas on one side and cotton flannel on the other...plenty warm.  Be aware
that if you order light colored garments they might be sewn with dark,
contrasting thread, resulting in sort of an 19th century leisure suit.  Ask
first.  Also, be sure you know what kind of buttons are included, if any.
They are aware of  re-enactors and will try to accomodate our needs.  They
will also make just about any size pants for a few dollars more.  I won't
tell you how big my pants are, but if Christopher Colombus had used them for
a sail, he would have been here in 1491.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:58:26 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes

Charles E. Hanson Jr. had several articles about the "capote' and "great
coat" industry of England and its involvement in the early American and
Canadian Fur Trade. I will try and look up some of this information that
Paul has just shared with us. As I remember the cut of the manufactured
coats were different than what was produced by the Native Americans or
breeds from examples at the museum.

Buck
____________________________
- -----Original Message-----
From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes


>Jeff Powers wrote:
>>
>>    >  Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys????
>>    >Hardtack
>> Here's my 3!!!!!!!!
>>      And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've
>> seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to the most
>> elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. They were
designed
>> or cut along lines of early European or Colonial style clothing.Contrary
to
>> todays common belief, it was the French Voyageurs,rather than the
American
>> Indians,who popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for
the
>> comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their own
>> decorations."
>>      Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including the white,multicolored
striped
>> ones) are about as authentic as one can get,they are well over 200 years
>> old.Blankets came in a variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney
>> Mills(another period correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has
>> been producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and they
>> are well worth the price!)
>>  ) the purchasers indicated that they
>> wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors that best
pleased
>> the Indians of Virginia.
>> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>>
>> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night!
>>
>> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>
>  Jeff,
> Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket makers
> Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and still do
>not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi striped blankets is
>around 1817 it was made only to fight the chiefs blankets sells of the
>solid with black stripe balankets were hit hard because of the chiefs
>blankets some the with multi stripe or duffle blanket was made. the
>firit loom in witney england was in the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas
>Early the founder of the frim was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved
>their seal from the queen, but their blankets were already an article of
>trade.As for capotes there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming
>from england.
>
>                               paul mueller
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:36:26 -0500
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mileage

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE2872.F7C7C5C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ho, the list:

AARGH!

Allen Chronister has asked a question that I vowed I wouldn't even try =
to answer--but here I go anyway. Warning: this is a lengthy discussion.

As a historical geographer who has spent the last 30 years studying and =
writing about Western exploration in the first half of hte nineteenth =
century, I've driven myself nuts trying to figure out the answer to =
Allen's question: "about how folks in the late 18th and early 19th =
centuries estimated their daily travel distances."

The best answer I've been able to come up with is "depends". Depends on =
the traveler, the purpose of travel, the equipment, the environment, =
etc.

An example: William Clark was incredibly accurate in his measurement of =
distance. From St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia, his distance =
measurement was about 4 miles off from the modern measurement given by =
the US Geological Survey. How did he do it? With fairly sophisticated =
instruments, careful attention to detail, and enlisted men to do the =
grunt work of pacing. Clark was instructed to make maps of the entire =
route and this meant doing a lot of field mapping. During much of the =
course of the expedition, Clark used triangulation methods: with one =
known leg of a triangle, he could figure the other distances using =
surveying instruments and tables of trignometric functions (sine, =
cosine, etc.). To get his known leg, Clark would (as nearly as I've been =
able to determine) have one of the enlisted men actually pace off =
distances along the banks of the Missouri. Evidence of this is that =
Clark often gave his distances in both straight-line increments and in =
"windings"--in other words, distance as the crow flies between two =
points and distance if the crow is walking along the curving bank of the =
river and counting his steps. Other military surveyors and mapmakers who =
were contemporaries of Lewis and Clark conducted similar scientific =
distance measurements--usually with a very high degree of accuracy. For =
example, David Thompson's maps of the Northwest, made between 1797 and =
1810, were also remarkably accurate in terms of distance. Like Clark, he =
used surveying instruments made available to him by his employers (the =
North-west Company).

O.K. So how did people like Osborne Russell, Wilson Price Hunt, Robert =
Stuart, William Ashley, Jedediah Smith, Rufus Sage, Thomas Farnham--even =
James Ohio Pattie for crying' out loud--come up with distance figures =
that were, while not as accurate as Will Clark's, still remarkably =
accurate--without having access to sophisticated surveying instruments =
and techniques? As frustrating and intellectually unsatisfying as this =
answer is, I think they guessed. But their guesses were "educated =
guesses".=20

I don't have to tell anybody on this list that these guys lived close to =
the natural world and survived by knowing things like how far it was to =
a water hole, good grass, or a place to fort up. I think that long =
familiarity with their environment, with their own travel paces and =
those of their horses (remember that they probably walked about as often =
as they rode, using their horses to pack gear) allowed them to judge =
distances much more accurately that we can while driving a car at speeds =
that may vary widely (from a dead stop to 70 mph or more). I suspect =
they also had a very well developed sense of time and distance--again, =
probably more precise than ours because their survival often depended on =
it. I've known old guys (contemporaries of my grandfather) who hunted =
and trapped in the northern Wyoming mountains in the late 19th and early =
20th centuries. These guys--more than a half century removed in time =
from the fur trappers and early explorers--were still incredibly =
accurate in their abilities to assess time and distance relationships. =
When asked how far it was from one point to another and how long it =
would take to get there, they could often reply with what (as a kid) I =
viewed as nearly supernatural accuracy. No pedometers for these gents =
but purely shank's mare. They knew their environment; they knew their =
pace.

From a scientific standpoint, the potential abilities of human distance =
and time perception are remarkable. And when it comes right down to it, =
estimating a distance of in miles between two mountain ridges and the =
time it will take to get from one to the other isn't a great deal =
different than making that snap estimate of how far away that buck is, =
how fast he is running, what the wind speed and direction is, and how do =
I hold on a point so that after I pull the trigger and my firearm =
discharges, a certain part of his anatomy and the slug from my rifle are =
going to arrive at the same point in space at the same time. Many of you =
carry out that incredibly complicated process without having to think =
about it. Estimating distances probably isn't any more difficult for the =
human brain to achieve--as long as that brain has plenty of experience =
in making such calculations.

Keep your powder dry.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]



- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE2872.F7C7C5C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D'"MSHTML 5.00.0910.1309"' name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ho, the list:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>AARGH!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Allen Chronister has asked a question that I vowed I =
wouldn't=20
even try to answer--but here I go anyway. Warning: this is a lengthy=20
discussion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As a historical geographer who has spent the last 30 =
years=20
studying and writing about Western exploration in the first half of hte=20
nineteenth century, I've driven myself nuts trying to figure out the =
answer to=20
Allen's question: "about how folks in the late 18th and early 19th=20
centuries estimated their daily travel distances."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The best answer I've been able to come up with is=20
"depends". Depends on the traveler, the purpose of travel, the =

equipment, the environment, etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>An example: William Clark was incredibly accurate in =
his=20
measurement of distance. From St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia, =
his=20
distance measurement was about 4 miles off from the modern measurement =
given by=20
the US Geological Survey. How did he do it? With fairly sophisticated=20
instruments, careful attention to detail, and enlisted men to do the =
grunt work=20
of pacing. Clark was instructed to make maps of the entire route and =
this meant=20
doing a lot of field mapping. During much of the course of the =
expedition, Clark=20
used triangulation methods: with one known leg of a triangle, he could =
figure=20
the other distances using surveying instruments and tables of =
trignometric=20
functions (sine, cosine, etc.). To get his known leg, Clark would (as =
nearly as=20
I've been able to determine) have one of the enlisted men actually pace =
off=20
distances along the banks of the Missouri. Evidence of this is that =
Clark often=20
gave his distances in both straight-line increments and in=20
"windings"--in other words, distance as the crow flies between =
two=20
points and distance if the crow is walking along the curving bank of the =
river=20
and counting his steps. Other military surveyors and mapmakers who were=20
contemporaries of Lewis and Clark conducted similar scientific distance=20
measurements--usually with a very high degree of accuracy. For example, =
David=20
Thompson's maps of the Northwest, made between 1797 and 1810, were also=20
remarkably accurate in terms of distance. Like Clark, he used surveying=20
instruments made available to him by his employers (the North-west=20
Company).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>O.K. So how did people like Osborne Russell, Wilson =
Price=20
Hunt, Robert Stuart, William Ashley, Jedediah Smith, Rufus Sage, Thomas=20
Farnham--even James Ohio Pattie for crying' out loud--come up with =
distance=20
figures that were, while not as accurate as Will Clark's, still =
remarkably=20
accurate--without having access to sophisticated surveying instruments =
and=20
techniques? As frustrating and intellectually unsatisfying as this =
answer is, I=20
think they guessed. But their guesses were "educated guesses". =

</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I don't have to tell anybody on this list that these =
guys=20
lived close to the natural world and survived by knowing things like how =
far it=20
was to a water hole, good grass, or a place to fort up. I think that =
long=20
familiarity with their environment, with their own travel paces and =
those of=20
their horses (remember that they probably walked about as often as they =
rode,=20
using their horses to pack gear) allowed them to judge distances much =
more=20
accurately that we can while driving a car at speeds that may vary =
widely (from=20
a dead stop to 70 mph or more). I suspect they also had a very well =
developed=20
sense of time and distance--again, probably more precise than ours =
because their=20
survival often depended on it. I've known old guys (contemporaries of my =

grandfather) who hunted and trapped in the northern Wyoming mountains in =
the=20
late 19th and early 20th centuries. These guys--more than a half century =
removed=20
in time from the fur trappers and early explorers--were still incredibly =

accurate in their abilities to assess time and distance relationships. =
When=20
asked how far it was from one point to another and how long it would =
take to get=20
there, they could often reply with what (as a kid) I viewed as nearly=20
supernatural accuracy. No pedometers for these gents but purely shank's =
mare.=20
They knew their environment; they knew their pace.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>From a scientific standpoint, the potential =
abilities of human=20
distance and time perception are remarkable. And when it comes right =
down to it,=20
estimating a distance of in miles between two mountain ridges and the =
time it=20
will take to get from one to the other isn't a great deal different than =
making=20
that snap estimate of how far away that buck is, how fast he is running, =
what=20
the wind speed and direction is, and how do I hold on a point so that =
after I=20
pull the trigger and my firearm discharges, a certain part of his =
anatomy and=20
the slug from my rifle are going to arrive at the same point in space at =
the=20
same time. Many of you carry out that incredibly complicated process =
without=20
having to think about it. Estimating distances probably isn't any more =
difficult=20
for the human brain to achieve--as long as that brain has plenty of =
experience=20
in making such calculations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Keep your powder dry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dr. John L. Allen<BR>21 Thomas Drive<BR>Storrs, CT=20
06268<BR>860/487-1346<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE2872.F7C7C5C0--

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #192
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.
 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.