ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n191

Internet Message Format | 1998-12-14 | 41KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #191
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest       Monday, December 14 1998       Volume 01 : Number 191




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:09:13 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mileage

A while back there was considerable discussion
about which way was up or down or left or right
regarding rivers in the old days.
On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
information (such as period journals or writings,
for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
distances?  While I can think of some rather
tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
info available?  People in historic journals often
give rather specific numbers as to how far they
traveled each day, and they are often fairly
close.  Thanks.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:27:25 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse

A pennyweight is a standard of measure used in the TROY standard of weight.
 It
has been standardized at 24 grains or 1555.2mg.   20 pennyweight equals one
TROY ounce and 12 TROY ounces equals 1 TROY pound.

As example; no 16d nail weighs 3/4 of a TROY ounce and 100 of them weigh=
 well
in excess of 3/4 ounce.

Some charlatans, even today, will try and deal precious metals from the
unsuspecting by throwing a penny on the scale.  I've weighed many English=
 and
American large and small cents and have yet to find a real correlation of
weight to denomination.  Of course until the mid-1800's weight and measure
lacked strong standards.  As the abbreviation "d" is taken from the Roman
"denarius" for penny it may have originally referenced the weight of a Roman
penny which I've not had the chance to weigh and compare.  Not everything in
every book is accurate.

I have early sets of weights which were made to differing standards and some
which were obviously made to hoodwink the unsuspecting.

The designation for nails was based on price not weight as was previously
posted.  A 16d finish nail is much slimmer in cross section than a 16d=
 common
nail.  Headed nails are also heavier within a given size which today only
references length.  In the early nineteenth century a wider variety of nails
was available than today -- even from Tremont.  Not every nail on Tremont's
sample board is still available from them.  In the 20+ years I've been=
 buying
from them several have been discontinued for lack of interest.=20

I've not before heard of "saving" thread for reuse (as thread) from worn
garments.  My experience with traditional thread is it isn't worth saving=
 when
the garment is worn out.  I would be interested in the reference the
information was drawn from.

John...


At 08:58 AM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-12-11 21:17:49 EST, you write:
>
><< Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking
> demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes
> meant.=A0 He told me that was the price per hundred nails.=A0 6d being
> much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper.
>=A0 >>
>
>In one of the old theatre text books I have in a box somewhere (scenery
>construction) it said that the 6d =3D 100 6 penny nails based on weight for
>weight.=A0 And that that was based on the old English Penny which was a=
 large
>coin compared to our penny today.=A0 I wish I could locate the text but=
 there
>are to many books in the storage room all boxed up to find it easily.=A0=20
>
>Your humble servant
>
>C.T. Oakes
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:21:13 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

Andrea,

In your original posting you asked for "authentic" Indian designs for the
blankets and the respondent rightly posted there aren't any.  You asked if
braintan and beads were used to accent and again the response was correct
based
on the phrasing of your questions.

You seem to have taken offense at answers phrased properly based on your
questions.=20

John...


At 05:58 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
> I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther=
 regarding
>replica and other types of clothing.=A0 The subject of any person=92s=
 clothing, I
>believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals
>from past times or those in the present.=A0 Clothing is a representation of=
 a
>person=92s personal expression in a very direct way.=A0 Therefore, I=
 believe a
>certain amount of respect is warranted.
>
> My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment,=
 expanded
>options, and freedom of choice.=A0 There is no place in my work for setting
>strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently=
 discuss
>different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my=
 own
>personal choices and helping other people to make theirs.=A0 My interest in
>replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
>design choices judged.=A0=20
>
> If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reached=
 an
>impasse because this is the way I work and live.=A0 I will probably really
catch
>it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming=
 from.
>
>Thank you,
>Andrea Moore
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:03:14 -0800
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

Also, if I might ask...how did these folks know how far they actually
traveled?  I once told a friend I had walked about 6 miles however when
measured it was a whopping 4 3/4 miles!  How embarrassing!  Sheesh!

MB

Allen Chronister wrote:

> A while back there was considerable discussion
> about which way was up or down or left or right
> regarding rivers in the old days.
> On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
> information (such as period journals or writings,
> for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
> early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
> distances?  While I can think of some rather
> tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
> info available?  People in historic journals often
> give rather specific numbers as to how far they
> traveled each day, and they are often fairly
> close.  Thanks.
> Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:31:07 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

Hi, Allen

The Mormons had an odometer. There is one of them in the Scottsbluff NM. I
have picture somewhere. I'll dig it out for you. I have also heard they
assigned one of the kids to count the revolutions of a wheel. The kids
probably invented the odometer.

Tom Laidlaw

In a message dated 12/14/98 6:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


<<  A while back there was considerable discussion
 > about which way was up or down or left or right
 > regarding rivers in the old days.
 > On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
 > information (such as period journals or writings,
 > for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
 > early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
 > distances?  While I can think of some rather
 > tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
 > info available?  People in historic journals often
 > give rather specific numbers as to how far they
 > traveled each day, and they are often fairly
 > close.  Thanks.
 > Allen Chronister >>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:37:34 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --part0_913689458_boundary
Content-ID: <0_913689458@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Attached is a picture of an odometer which was used by the Mormons. It resides
at Scottsbluff, NM

Tom Laidlaw

In a message dated 12/14/98 6:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Also, if I might ask...how did these folks know how far they actually
 traveled?  I once told a friend I had walked about 6 miles however when
 measured it was a whopping 4 3/4 miles!  How embarrassing!  Sheesh!

 MB

 Allen Chronister wrote:

 > A while back there was considerable discussion
 > about which way was up or down or left or right
 > regarding rivers in the old days.
 > On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
 > information (such as period journals or writings,
 > for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
 > early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
 > distances?  While I can think of some rather
 > tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
 > info available?  People in historic journals often
 > give rather specific numbers as to how far they
 > traveled each day, and they are often fairly
 > close.  Thanks.
 > Allen Chronister >>

- --part0_913689458_boundary
Content-ID: <0_913689458@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: image/jpeg;
    name="ODOMETER.JPG"
Content-transfer-encoding: base64
Content-disposition: inline
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==

- --part0_913689458_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:45:50 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

Dear Andrea,  I hope that no one was 'judging  your tastes, etc...  I
believe what was said was only in keeping a historical perspective (which
is what the AMM is all about).  When reading your blanket question, my
thought was - Pendelton blankets is what you want- These blankets are
beautiful, My father has an extensive collection.  They are not correct
to our Fur Trade period (pre 1850).  For us (AMM Members) these blankets
are not appropriate for our area of interest.  I don't think judgement
was being passed, just the fact that these blankets were post 1850.  I
just made a 'Canoe Capote' from a Whitney Horse Rug.  This is a blanket
which is slightly smaller than a 4 point, but 15% heavier (thicker).  I
chose this blanket for its 'R' value, ie warmth.  Is it representitive of
a blanket at a 1830's RDVS, No..... but it will keep me warm when I'm in
the snow and woods.  I appreciate all of your postings, i bought an
expandable file yesterday to keep my collection in.  I think that most,
if not all, of us appreciate your time and efforts in educating us about
sewing, etc...  We are benefitting from your knowledge and expertise,
please don't be offended by some of our 'purists' thoughts.  We are about
authenticity, In an AMM camp.  Of course there are many other areas of
reenactment.  Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys????        Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:00:08 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

Tom, thanks for that very cool picture. makes me think that Paul Bunyon musta
been the Mormon that wore it.  LOL.  Could you please describe how it
operated?  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:21:26 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

In a message dated 12/14/98 7:15:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Tom, thanks for that very cool picture. makes me think that Paul Bunyon
musta
 been the Mormon that wore it.  LOL.  Could you please describe how it
 operated?  Thanks.     >>
Somewhere, somehow, there was a connection to the wagon wheel. I guess it's
like an adding machine: Every so many turns of the wagon wheel turns one notch
of the gear and that gear turns another. and that's an odometer, not a
chronometer. The wagon wore it, not the person. LOL :)

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:27:57 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

Andrea,

In the past 20-25 years people have come forth, with their ideas of how
people would have dressed or would have looked (in their own mind), and
refused to just study history, or look at what was being sent on trade
lists, look at artist's work that were there. They preferred to make them
fancier than they were and we ended up with these Hollywood characters seen
for years, we saw it in the movies, it must be correct.

Wrong, that's why in the last 10 years or so members from the historical
societies and other groups that have made a life long study of the varoius
time frames are now being hired by the movie makers to correct some of these
clothing mistakes, matters of appearance or the way the public will see the
character, trying to give a more correct image for that period, etc.

Look at what has been done in late years with "Black Robe", "Last of the
Moc", "Dances with Wolves", "Son of Morning Star", etc., people like Cathy
Smith, Jerry Farthenhold and Jerry Crandall (known for their dedicated
research) were used to handle clothing and weapons, for a correct appearance
of what was used or worn. Not someone's personal taste, but what was
available and documentated in journals or shown in works of art by artist's
that were there at that time.

It all comes down to research and then more research, we have found mistakes
that "people in the know" have made on dates, locations and who or what was
going on at a given time on this "list", all through research and comparing
notes, not just what one person feels is his or her personal thing.

You ask a question we try and give you a correct answer, don't go with what
you see in the movies as being always correct or at an event or rendezvous,
in the larger settlements of the 1700's and 1800's the wealthy had fancy
clothing, but on the out line areas these people had to work to survive and
everthing they had was used to work in, relax if possible in, or go to
church in, just common plain clothes were the norm. When they finally wore
out they were used to patch other clothes or make bags, etc. and finally
saved to be broke down to make paper in the settlements. Its all there in
black and white, journals, books, and letters of the time.

Most folks worked they didn't have the option to stand around and look nice
or show off what they had, they were to busy trying to stay alive and keep
their families alive.

Buck
___________________________
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 4:30 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: A few items . . .


I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding
replica and other types of clothing.  The subject of any personÆs clothing,
I
believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals
from past times or those in the present.  Clothing is a representation of a
personÆs personal expression in a very direct way.  Therefore, I believe a
certain amount of respect is warranted.

My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment, expanded
options, and freedom of choice.  There is no place in my work for setting
strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss
different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my
own
personal choices and helping other people to make theirs.  My interest in
replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
design choices judged.

If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reached an
impasse because this is the way I work and live.  I will probably really
catch
it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming from.

Thank you,
Andrea Moore

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:29:52 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

Tom is correct, read about this device in the museum in Salt Lake a few
years ago.

Buck
___________
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage


>Hi, Allen
>
>The Mormons had an odometer. There is one of them in the Scottsbluff NM. I
>have picture somewhere. I'll dig it out for you. I have also heard they
>assigned one of the kids to count the revolutions of a wheel. The kids
>probably invented the odometer.
>
>Tom Laidlaw
>
>In a message dated 12/14/98 6:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
>
><<  A while back there was considerable discussion
> > about which way was up or down or left or right
> > regarding rivers in the old days.
> > On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
> > information (such as period journals or writings,
> > for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
> > early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
> > distances?  While I can think of some rather
> > tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
> > info available?  People in historic journals often
> > give rather specific numbers as to how far they
> > traveled each day, and they are often fairly
> > close.  Thanks.
> > Allen Chronister >>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:49:14 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

- --------------5EFED747CC4850A755CFDB10
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA13426

Dear Andrea,

Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That, m=
ost assuredly
was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though, you asked for a=
dvise and
others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance came from the assumption =
that you might
no be familiar with the fact of life that this is a history list and we p=
repare for and
attend reenactment functions where yours and our choice of clothing, pers=
onal as that
may be, is judged by our peers and there are things we may not wear or do=
 at these
functions lest we not be welcome.

That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these ree=
nactments of
history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your gift for creati=
vity to your
hearts desire. At historical functions your freedom to be creative is lim=
ited to what is
historically correct for the time period set and deviating from that is t=
o show great
disrespect for those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to=
 be
historically correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think wa=
s how things
were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa=
nding of how it
was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should have done it=
. One of the
most onerous things to hear a "player" say with regard to this sport of h=
istorical
reenacting is "Well they would have used it if they would have had it". M=
isses the whole
point of doing this.

I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apologiz=
e for what
undoubtedly sounds like a  lecture but you seemed to invite further expla=
nation and as
one of the first to try to help you answer your original questions, I tho=
ught it my
place. In the best spirit of friendship, I will remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

>         I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any fart=
her regarding
> replica and other types of clothing.  The subject of any person=92s clo=
thing, I
> believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individ=
uals
> from past times or those in the present.  Clothing is a representation =
of a
> person=92s personal expression in a very direct way.  Therefore, I beli=
eve a
> certain amount of respect is warranted.
>
>         My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyme=
nt, expanded
> options, and freedom of choice.  There is no place in my work for setti=
ng
> strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently di=
scuss
> different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making =
my own
> personal choices and helping other people to make theirs.  My interest =
in
> replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing an=
d
> design choices judged.
>
>         If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may hav=
e reached an
> impasse because this is the way I work and live.  I will probably reall=
y catch
> it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming =
from.
>
> Thank you,
> Andrea Moore



- --------------5EFED747CC4850A755CFDB10
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA13426

<HTML>
Dear Andrea,

<P>Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That=
,
most assuredly was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though,
you asked for advise and others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance
came from the assumption that you might no be familiar with the fact of
life that this is a history list and we prepare for and attend reenactmen=
t
functions where yours and our choice of clothing, personal as that may
be, <U>is judged</U> by our peers and <U>there are things we may not wear=
</U>
or do at these functions<U> lest we not be welcome.</U><U></U>

<P>That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these
reenactments of history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your
gift for creativity to your hearts desire. At historical functions your
freedom to be creative is limited to what is historically correct for the
time period set and deviating from that is to show great disrespect for
those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to be historicall=
y
correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think was how things
were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa=
nding
of how it was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should
have done it. One of the most onerous things to hear a "player" say with
regard to this sport of historical reenacting is "Well they would have
used it if they would have had it". Misses the whole point of doing this.

<P>I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apolo=
gize
for what undoubtedly sounds like a  lecture but you seemed to invite
further explanation and as one of the first to try to help you answer you=
r
original questions, I thought it my place. In the best spirit of friendsh=
ip,
I will remain......

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>        I woul=
d
like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding
<BR>replica and other types of clothing.  The subject of any person=92=
s
clothing, I
<BR>believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about indiv=
iduals
<BR>from past times or those in the present.  Clothing is a represen=
tation
of a
<BR>person=92s personal expression in a very direct way.  Therefore,
I believe a
<BR>certain amount of respect is warranted.

<P>        My approach to clothing des=
ign
and crafting is based on enjoyment, expanded
<BR>options, and freedom of choice.  There is no place in my work
for setting
<BR>strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently
discuss
<BR>different options concerning a particular garment as a means of makin=
g
my own
<BR>personal choices and helping other people to make theirs.  My
interest in
<BR>replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing
and
<BR>design choices judged.

<P>        If the above is offensive
to anyone on the list then we may have reached an
<BR>impasse because this is the way I work and live.  I will probabl=
y
really catch
<BR>it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am comin=
g
from.

<P>Thank you,
<BR>Andrea Moore</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

- --------------5EFED747CC4850A755CFDB10--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:50:36 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

- --------------B977276CC7E60D9DF0C9B48C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA10706

Dear Andrea,

Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That, m=
ost assuredly
was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though, you asked for a=
dvise and
others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance came from the assumption =
that you might
no be familiar with the fact of life that this is a history list and we p=
repare for and
attend reenactment functions where yours and our choice of clothing, pers=
onal as that
may be, is judged by our peers and there are things we may not wear or do=
 at these
functions lest we not be welcome.

That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these ree=
nactments of
history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your gift for creati=
vity to your
hearts desire. At historical functions your freedom to be creative is lim=
ited to what is
historically correct for the time period set and deviating from that is t=
o show great
disrespect for those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to=
 be
historically correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think wa=
s how things
were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa=
nding of how it
was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should have done it=
. One of the
most onerous things to hear a "player" say with regard to this sport of h=
istorical
reenacting is "Well they would have used it if they would have had it". M=
isses the whole
point of doing this.

I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apologiz=
e for what
undoubtedly sounds like a  lecture but you seemed to invite further expla=
nation and as
one of the first to try to help you answer your original questions, I tho=
ught it my
place. In the best spirit of friendship, I will remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

>         I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any fart=
her regarding
> replica and other types of clothing.  The subject of any person=92s clo=
thing, I
> believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individ=
uals
> from past times or those in the present.  Clothing is a representation =
of a
> person=92s personal expression in a very direct way.  Therefore, I beli=
eve a
> certain amount of respect is warranted.
>
>

- --------------B977276CC7E60D9DF0C9B48C
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA10706

<HTML>
Dear Andrea,

<P>Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That=
,
most assuredly was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though,
you asked for advise and others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance
came from the assumption that you might no be familiar with the fact of
life that this is a history list and we prepare for and attend reenactmen=
t
functions where yours and our choice of clothing, personal as that may
be, <U>is judged</U> by our peers and <U>there are things we may not wear=
</U>
or do at these functions<U> lest we not be welcome.</U>

<P>That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these
reenactments of history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your
gift for creativity to your hearts desire. At historical functions your
freedom to be creative is limited to what is historically correct for the
time period set and deviating from that is to show great disrespect for
those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to be historicall=
y
correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think was how things
were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa=
nding
of how it was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should
have done it. One of the most onerous things to hear a "player" say with
regard to this sport of historical reenacting is "Well they would have
used it if they would have had it". Misses the whole point of doing this.

<P>I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apolo=
gize
for what undoubtedly sounds like a  lecture but you seemed to invite
further explanation and as one of the first to try to help you answer you=
r
original questions, I thought it my place. In the best spirit of friendsh=
ip,
I will remain......

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>        I woul=
d
like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding
<BR>replica and other types of clothing.  The subject of any person=92=
s
clothing, I
<BR>believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about indiv=
iduals
<BR>from past times or those in the present.  Clothing is a represen=
tation
of a
<BR>person=92s personal expression in a very direct way.  Therefore,
I believe a
<BR>certain amount of respect is warranted.

<P> </BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>

- --------------B977276CC7E60D9DF0C9B48C--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:56:08 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A few items . . .

I would like to add my vote of appreciation for Andrea's many thorough
explanations of sewing and tailoring technique. These methods are useful to
everyone learning to survive with whatever's available, and I believe that
is a common thread in these discussions.
Many persons on this list take pride in hewing to an old-fashioned sense of
logic, factual integrity, and straightforward use of language. To such
persons, "judging" is an everyday act of discriminating the bad and
worthless from the good and valued. I'm afraid that "judging",
"discrimination" and for that matter, logic, are rejected by many people
today, including our educational establishment, because such distinctions
might make somebody feel bad.
It's perfectly clear to me that somebody like Andrea, who has taken the time
to develop and send us clear, useful, and thoughtful instructions on a topic
we all need, should have no fear of being "judged" and should look forward
with pride to the thanks she should receive. Naturally, our personal taste
in clothing is our own business; there are all kinds of events where
appropriate clothing is expected, and we all have methods of finding our
what those standards are, and whether we want to attend or not under the
circumstances.
So from me, three cheers, thanks, and be assured I have archived your
directions for that day when I next tackle a garment project.
Pat Quilter, AMM #1658


- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 2:59 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: A few items . . .


    I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther
regarding
replica and other types of clothing.  The subject of any person's clothing,
I
believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals
from past times or those in the present.  Clothing is a representation of a
person's personal expression in a very direct way.  Therefore, I believe a
certain amount of respect is warranted.

    My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment,
expanded
options, and freedom of choice.  There is no place in my work for setting
strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss
different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my
own
personal choices and helping other people to make theirs.  My interest in
replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
design choices judged.

    If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have
reached an
impasse because this is the way I work and live.  I will probably really
catch
it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming from.

Thank you,
Andrea Moore

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #191
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.
 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.