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hist_text-digest     Wednesday, December 16 1998     Volume 01 : Number 193




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:48:49 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...

Hey, Now that we are on the topic of Tobacco, I Had acouple of Questions about
the Period Pipe Smoking.
What would the Mountian Men in the West use in their pipes?(Northern-Central
Cali) Even though there wern't that many MM over there.  Just trying to adjust
more into my "Period wear". Moving from Indiana to Cali. Kinda made me adjust
my Wear alittle bit.
Thanks,
J. Broughton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:57:15 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...

I'm not sure of anything documentable on what Mountain Men of California
would use in their pipes......but common native pipe mixtures that are
indigenous to the Sierras and the Coast Range include Bear Berry (aka
kinnickkinnick or Uva Ursi) common at alpine elevations and supposedly best
if harvested in the springtime, inner bark of Red Osier Dogwood (aka Red
Willow) very common along creeks, supposedly best if dried and lightly
roasted, Native Tobacco (Nicotiana  something Exaltata) was cultivated by
just about every Native Tribe in California----and was the only thing they
cultivated (and is the best Tobacco I've ever smoked, wish I could get some
seeds) except along the Colorado River, and Wild Mints of many varieties.
Also worth trying is Sagebrush (Artemisia Tridentata) from the high deserts
of eastern California, and Mugwort found along most creeks and rivers.

I used to live in Northern California, so this is based on what is there,
and what Native peoples used, Southern California is a different  world
altogether. Where exactly are you living?

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:28:39 -0700
From: Kevin Kierst <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps

My name is Joe Kierst and have been attending rendezvous for the past 3
years.Last night my dad had the idea of a buckskinner summer camp where
you could trap beaver,hunt,track,throw knives and tomahawks,make fires
with flint and steel,cure hides,pack a mule,shoot blackpowder rifles
and  more.I would start this myself but Im only 12 and school takes up
most of my time but Im very willing to help in any way I can.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:03:36 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...and mullein

Just a side note regarding Mullein. I'm not sure if authenticity of pipe
mixture was important to the fellow asking about Mullein identification, but
if it is I thought I'd point out that Mullein is not native to North America
(though it is so widespread you'd think it was), and while it probably
spread very quickly once it arrived, chances are extremely slim that it was
anywhere near the Rockies prior to 1840.

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:24:20 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...

Matt,

Looking for some native tobacco? Try Native seed Search. I have gotten some
different seeds form them and grown the weed here in SE WA. with mixed results.
Your climate may be even better. If you are interested and don't have the cat.
I will see if I can come up with an address. Let me know. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Matt Richards wrote:

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:01:18 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...

Thanks for the Info On Tobacco. Just a couple Quick Questions again.
 Capt. Lahti', could I grab that address from you?
Mr. Richards, I am currentally Living in San Mateo County, about 20 Min.South
of San Fran, Any info you could supply me would be much appreciated.
What would the Mountian Men use to keep their Tobacco Moist enough to smoke? A
special pouch? Or did they not bother to care about the moisture? And did they
just pick the herb, dry it, cut it up into ribbons and smoke it? or did they
add stuff? This is coming from a guy that just goes out and buys it, instead
of homemade, although I am willing to try anything.
Thank you again for all your help,
J. Broughton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:17:08 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

A general question for the list:

All of this talk about period clothing and materials stimulated by Andrea's
post has reminded me of a question that I've been wanting to ask folks like
yourselves for quite some time.

My limited experience at rendezvous' has been that folks are much more
concerned with cuts and styles than with materials....ie ... its just fine
to wear chrome-tan leggings, but wear brain tan in anything besides the
styles portrayed in the same three books on Mtn Man gear that everyone has
read, and its inappropriate (this is a gross generalization but illustrates
my point).

My feeling on this is that what is most 'accurate' is to use period
appropriate materials, and basically period appropriate styles, but that
there is some room for personal adaptation.... ie .... I find it hard to
believe that Mtn Men were slaves to fashion.  It seems much more realistic
that most had some basic concepts about clothing in common (based on what
was commonly used in the period), but they adapted them to fit their own
needs because they were practical people who knew how to do stuff, and had
to adapt in order to survive. If a guy found it more practical to wear high
top moccasins in the area he was working in because there were so damn many
burs, he'd make some, even if that wasn't typical of that area.......and
even if he'd never been exposed to high-tops, he'd have enough brain power
to think that making his mocs higher would help keep grass seeds from
working their way down into his feet and being very painful (this is just a
quick example).......or perhaps the location of his buttons, or using a
drawstring, or other simple yet practical variations.

With brain tan continueing as our example, what little remnants of mountain
man and Native garments I've seen in museums has always surprised me how
much it didn't fit into the stereotypes I see so much recreation of.
Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to wear brain-tan that is based upon a
highly stylized later period garment (like levi's), but to me this type of
're-enactment' seems more in keeping with the spirit of who these folks were
and how they lived.

I'd really enjoy hearing some opinions on this.....

I'd also like to say that many of the comments I've recently seen on this
list about period clothing, makes far more sense to me than anything I've
previously come across. Is there a web site where I can learn more about the
AMM?

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:29:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes

Matt

Read your book, (or most of it anyway) and been meaning to ask you... what
do you use to replace the woodash wash when tanning hair on, as in buffalo
robes?...  And...  after fleshing and braining, how do you preserve the
hair on buff robe without smoking it?

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:57:50 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps

hey joe - sign me up!!    great idea. sounds like a rendezvous.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:47:48 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  capotes

Thanks Paul,more fodder for the history files.I'll have to save this for
future reference.
   >>      And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've
   >> seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to
   >>the most  elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life.
   >>They were designed  or cut along lines of early European or
   >>Colonial style clothing.Contrary to  todays common belief, it was
   >>the French Voyageurs,rather than the American  Indians,who
   >>popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the
   >>comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their
   >>own  decorations."       Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including
   >>the white,multicolored striped  ones) are about as authentic as
   >>one can get,they are well over 200 years  old.Blankets came in a
   >>variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney  Mills(another period
   >>correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has  been
   >>producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and
   >>they  are well worth the price!)   ) the purchasers indicated that
   >>they  wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors
   >>that best pleased  the Indians of Virginia.
   >> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
   >> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night!
   >> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
   >Jeff,
   >Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket
   >makers Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and
   >still do not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi
   >striped blankets is around 1817 it was made only to fight the
   >chiefs blankets sells of the solid with black stripe balankets were
   >hit hard because of the chiefs blankets some the with multi stripe
   >or duffle blanket was made. the firit loom in witney england was in
   >the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas Early the founder of the frim
   >was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved their seal from the queen,
   >but their blankets were already an article of trade.As for capotes
   >there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming from england.
   >paul mueller

Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:02:04 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes

Lee,
I'm not really a Buffalo Hide tanner, though I am currently doing a couple
of Buffalo robes....and I've done many brain tan furs. All current Buffalo
Robe brain tanners that I know (Wes Housler, Larry Belitz, Jim Miller, Randy
Breuwsma) smoke their hides as far as I know, though I'm not sure if this
was done historically....

......one quick note with the 'hide smoking' tradition is that many native
tribes did not smoke their hides, and most only smoked hides destined to get
wet & dry frequently....like moccasins and leggings.....the idea that
unsmoked or white hides were purely ceremonial is simply a myth, at least
for the vast majority of Plains and western tribes (we have little record of
eastern tribes' tanning methods, though there are a couple). However, people
of that era lived a very smokey lifestyle, and from my own experience, it
takes very little to functionally smoke a hide so that bugs stay out of it,
and it can get wet and still dry soft....and this is why I believe that so
many tribes did so little smoking------the hides got smoked anyway! Just by
hanging out in the lodges and around fires.

For hair-on tanning I do not know of anything that has as equivalently
wonderful of an effect as the wood-ash lye of improving brain
penetration....that is in any way traditional....though this is one of my
current quests. My upcoming experiments will be to try 'pre-smoking'  (see
the Dinsmore's article at www.braintan.com/articles/presmoke.html ), on furs
and see if this helps improve brain penetration....initial experiments have
shown that it does wonders to prevent the hair from falling out, which can
be a problem if one brains and rebrains a fur many times.

The current method that virtually everyone does for tanning furs is to apply
brains and work the hide soft repeatedly until it is as soft as one
wants...whether its Buffalo, Beaver, Skunk or what have you. No-one has
found a short-cut as useful as the wood-ash soak that helps so much with
making buckskin, and in my opinion there aren't any brain tanners who have
really mastered hair-on tanning, though there are many who are pretty good
at it.....the commercial furs come out softer. If you haven't already, check
out the online fur tanning article at www.braintan.com/articles/miller1.html
for a basic idea. For Buffalo robe tanning I recommend Wes Housler's video
'How To Brain Tan a Buffalo', ordering info is at
www.braintan.com/tools/tools.html . Wes has tanned over 500 robes, so I
listen.....

For more Buffalo tanning info contact Wes Housler, Larry Belitz, or Jim
Miller all of who's contact information is in the Resource Directory at
www.braintan.com/resources/directory2.html .

I am working on an entire Buffalo tanning section for braintan.com to be
posted as soon as I get it all together. Wes recently sent me a picture of a
brain tan buffalo hide tipi he made last spring. It is really inspiring!

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:02:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes

Appreciate the info Matt.

I was concerned about the buffalo robes due to a friends experiance with
bugs and unsmoked hides.... the bugs clipped all the hair off his
unsmoked hide except for the belly hair, so he now has a buffalo hide with
a "reverse Mohawk haircut".  I'd hate to go through all that work and have
that happen.

I'm in the process of seeing how tolerant my wife is by working on some
hides in the basement.  Will check in on your website when time permits,
look forward to your Buffalo section.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:52:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

I think that you have hit upon my sentiments exactly.  The people of the 19th
century
certainly weren't as concerned about the fashion police as we in the 20th
century ssem to be.  I am a quillwork.  I do both hitorically accurrate and
creative pieces.  I am guided by who commissions what and when they want to
pay me.  I have traced my family roots back to the 1600's and am pretty sure
they operated in the same way.

Red Hawk

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:28:52 -0700
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

I wholeheatedly agree Roger and Pat,

You are correct in the assumtion that it should  not be made into a mystery
for the ages. Another observation is that if, as in the L&C expedition ,
the aim was scientific, then yes, celestial navigation was the rule. If
however the goal was profit and not science for posterity, we can consider
ourselves lucky that some actually cared enough to record even estimated
milage. Would the fur compaies have invested in an odometer on their carts
in the first place? So far the evidence says no. So are we really back to
the answer to Allen's original question being  that a lifetime of
travelling known distances prior to the uncharted journeys recorded, gave
the travellers the experience needed to give very educated and accurate
estimations?

Vic


>Vic,
>
>One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is shanks mare. If we consider all the
>references made to "so many sleeps" by the indians and remember that these
>people (Europeans) lived their lives walking or ridding then I don't find it
>hard to believe they knew their distances by simply living them. Consider that
>we have little trouble telling some one how many yards the elk was from us
>when we shot or even how many "klicks" out we calculated for the artillery
>shot. Many with contemporary military skills talk in "so many meters" with the
>ease that our forefathers talked of the distance they traveled.
>
>I think we are making this more mysterious than it really was. L&C made
>celestial observations regularly which would have given them an idea of how
>far they had traveled. I'm sure that they and many others would instinctively
>known how far they walked in a given amount of time or if they were mounted or
>even afloat. Simple matter of doing it all your life. When we travel today we
>speak of traveling maybe 300 to 600 miles depending on our stamina behind the
>wheel. They were used to traveling from 15 to maybe 25 miles a day (a guess)
>depending on mode of travel available. I bet if we did that every day of our
>lives we could tell with accuracy how far we had traveled on a given day and
>not necessarily have to resort to a odometer behind the cart. What say you. I
>remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt.. Lahti' #1719
>Clerk of the "Wilson Price Hunt Party"
>NW Brigade
>
>Vic Barkin wrote:
>
>> An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in
>> their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a
>> wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable
>> celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other
>> ideas?
>>
>> Vic
>>
>> >Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
>> >There are later l9th century photos of the army
>> >using the same device.
>> >I'm still interested in any historic info on
>> >milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
>> >Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
>> >HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
>> >mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
>> >mentioned a wheel odometer.
>> >Any more thoughts/info out there?
>> >Allen Chronister
>>
>> Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>>
>> AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
>> "Aux aliments du pays!"
>>
>> Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
>> Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998


Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:37:00 -0800
From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...

J. Broughton,
When I used to smoke my pipe I had made a pouch from pillow ticking,
soaked it in melted beeswax (for waterproofing).  To keep it moist I kept
a piece of apple, cacti, bread or whatever was at hand that would retain
some degree of moisture.
Then I promptly went and lost the whole shootin match in the Big
Hole.....Some trekker in the far distant future will stumble across it
and have himself a genuine fired clay pipe bowl circa 19th cent.
John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:13:57 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mileage

John Allen

Thank you for your insightful post on distance.

Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:24 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: MtMan-List: Jocab & Sam

Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day Hawken
Shop?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam

Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day "Hawken
Shop"?

Your most humble and obedient servant,
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
M. D. Watts

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:13:21 -0800
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes

    In The Book of Buckskinning IV, there is a really good extensive article
titled "Blankets in Early America". It is written by Gary Mueller.
    Gail
=============================================
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes


>Charles E. Hanson Jr. had several articles about the "capote' and "great
>coat" industry of England and its involvement in the early American and
>Canadian Fur Trade. I will try and look up some of this information that
>Paul has just shared with us. As I remember the cut of the manufactured
>coats were different than what was produced by the Native Americans or
>breeds from examples at the museum.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:28:44 -0800
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mileage

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John, et al.
    At a later date, it is interesting to read how many emigrants on the =
Oregon, California, Morman Trails misjudged the distance to major =
landmarks such as mountain tops or even Chimney Rock in Wyoming. Almost =
all diaries record that it "looks so close" but ends up being miles =
farther than estimated.=20
Gail
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John, et al.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>    At a later date, =
it is=20
interesting to read how many emigrants on the Oregon, California, Morman =
Trails=20
misjudged the distance to major landmarks such as mountain tops or even =
Chimney=20
Rock in Wyoming. Almost all diaries record that it "looks so =
close"=20
but ends up being miles farther than estimated. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>Gail</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:13:31 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam

KINA INTERESTED IN FINDING THAT INFORMATION OUT MY SELF---SURE WOULD LIKE
TO HAVE A GOOD PHONE NUMBER THAT I COULD MAKE CONTACT WITH I HAVE THE
FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN MY RECORDS BUT DONT BELIEVE IT IS CORRECT:

THE HAWKINS SHOP
4778 NORTH MONKEY HILL ROAD
OAK HARBOR, WASHINGTON 98277

PHONE NUMBER :1-360-679-4657

I WOULD ALSO LIKE THE NAME OF THE OWNER SINCE IT CHANGED HANDS FROM ART
RESSEL-----ANY INFO WOULD BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED.

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
writes:
>Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day
>"Hawken
>Shop"?
>
>Your most humble and obedient servant,
>[e-mail]
>[e-mail]
>M. D. Watts
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:47:22 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam

Hawk,

I'm thinking it may have migrated to Montana or Wyoming the last couple
years.  Like yourself, I've been unable to keep up with it.

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:13 PM
>
> KINA INTERESTED IN FINDING THAT INFORMATION OUT MY SELF---SURE WOULD LIKE
> TO HAVE A GOOD PHONE NUMBER THAT I COULD MAKE CONTACT WITH I HAVE THE
> FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN MY RECORDS BUT DONT BELIEVE IT IS CORRECT:
>
> THE HAWKINS SHOP
> 4778 NORTH MONKEY HILL ROAD
> OAK HARBOR, WASHINGTON 98277
>
> PHONE NUMBER :1-360-679-4657
>
> I WOULD ALSO LIKE THE NAME OF THE OWNER SINCE IT CHANGED HANDS FROM ART
> RESSEL-----ANY INFO WOULD BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED.
>
> "HAWK"
> Michael pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor Florida  34684
> E-mail:   [e-mail]
>
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
> writes:
> >Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day
> >"Hawken
> >Shop"?
> >
> >Your most humble and obedient servant,
> >[e-mail]
> >[e-mail]
> >M. D. Watts
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:50:16 -0700
From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:  Ron at Lewis Fork Free Trappers

Ron from Lewis Fork Free Trappers, please contact me concerning the John
Johnston articles I am trying to send to you, they keep coming back
undeliverable.   Longtrail

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:11:54 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes

Lee,
Yeah, smoking hides really deters the bugs. If you don't smoke furs or
hair-on hides, you are really asking for it.

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:15:17 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...

White Wolf,

The address is "Native Seeds/Search" 526 N. 4th Ave., Tucson, Arizona 85705. Be
sure to ask for a catalogue  that will have native tobacco seeds offered in it.
You will have close to a dozen different types to choose from.

As to cultivation, it requires lots of sun and fertile soil. Pinch the flower
heads off and when fully mature, pull the whole plant up and hang upside down in
the garage or shed. Crush or cut the dried leaves and mix with what ever you care
to add. Keep in a closed container or it will get very dry. To carry 'period' I
would make a leather pouch as I think that is how it was done but I know that
metal tobacco "canteens" were made and used to carry it in a more moist condition.
You can of course make it moist by putting a slice of apple or even potato in the
bag or whatever the container and the tobacco will draw moisture and become
supple. Hope that helps a bit. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> Thanks for the Info On Tobacco.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:42:33 -0800
From: Tommy Edge <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)

unsubscribe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:54:23 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

Matt,

Thanks for the opportunity to express MY OPINION on what I think is correct.
Some will agree and some will argue but that is what we are here for.

Matt Richards wrote:

> My limited experience at rendezvous' has been that folks are much more
> concerned with cuts and styles than with materials....ie ... its just fine
> to wear chrome-tan leggings, but wear brain tan in anything besides the
> styles portrayed in the same three books on Mtn Man gear that everyone has
> read, and its inappropriate (this is a gross generalization but illustrates
> my point).

It is not just fine to wear chrome tan leggings. It is always just fine to wear
brain tan. Chrome tan is an expedient because of the supposed difficulty in
making brain tan or the expense. There were other leathers available to the era
but not chrome tan. It usually dosen't look right either. I'm not sure what you
asked in the next sentence but it is always correct to wear garments of the
correct style for the period and they should be made of the same materials and
be of the same cuts as was originally worn. But the Mt. Man did not always were
leather. Cloth was much more popular and widly worn than popularly thought.

> My feeling on this is that what is most 'accurate' is to use period
> appropriate materials, and basically period appropriate styles, but that
> there is some room for personal adaptation.... ie .... I find it hard to
> believe that Mtn Men were slaves to fashion.

I think the Mt. Man and Long Hunter were more blended together in reality. But
that is another topic. I think they were more slaves to fashion than you
suggest, in that they were slow to adapt new things and ideas, i. e. the
reluctance to embrace the new cap lock technology. Many fashions of the 1700's
were still being worn in the 1830's. There may be room for personal adaptation
but not as much as many folks at the more open club shoots and National
Rendezvous have done.

> It seems much more realistic
> that most had some basic concepts about clothing in common (based on what
> was commonly used in the period), but they adapted them to fit their own
> needs because they were practical people who knew how to do stuff, and had
> to adapt in order to survive. If a guy found it more practical to wear high
> top moccasins in the area he was working in because there were so damn many
> burs, he'd make some, even if that wasn't typical of that area.......and
> even if he'd never been exposed to high-tops, he'd have enough brain power
> to think that making his mocs higher would help keep grass seeds from
> working their way down into his feet and being very painful (this is just a
> quick example).......or perhaps the location of his buttons, or using a
> drawstring, or other simple yet practical variations.

High top moccasin were worn. Though some will tell you different, most all
styles of moccasins of the era and earlier were also worn. I have heard it said
that the Mt. Man worn nothing but side seam high tops. That is simply not true.
They wore center seam, pucker toes, hard soled two piece, along with boots and
shoes of eastern manufacture. What they didn't wear were what you can buy from
Cabellas and such places. As to burs and such, most contemporary paintings show
the legging or pantaloon worn down over the moccasin so there is protection from
burs and sand. I'm sure that there were pants style garments etc. with different
types of closures and such but I believe they would have felt really out of
place to have to wear a pair of breeches that were buttoned in a way different
from what the norm was at the time.

> With brain tan continueing as our example, what little remnants of mountain
> man and Native garments I've seen in museums has always surprised me how
> much it didn't fit into the stereotypes I see so much recreation of.
> Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to wear brain-tan that is based upon a
> highly stylized later period garment (like levi's), but to me this type of
> 're-enactment' seems more in keeping with the spirit of who these folks were
> and how they lived.

Might be in the spirit but not correct. The reason you see examples in museums
that don't fit what you see at many rendezvous is because these garment were
collected long after the era in question and are not always representative of
what was actually worn. Many folks over the years have spent their hard earned
money on leather garments made as we make garments today and it is hard to throw
them away or even recut them. There are a lot of misconceptions about how they
lived and part of the problem is the way they have been romanticized so much by
us and the entertainment industry.

Lest I dig myself into too big a hole, I will stop and wait for others thoughts
on this. I hope this has been of help to you and remember that this is my heart
felt belief but I may be shown the error of my ways by others. I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:49:52 -0700
From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

 Is there a web site where I can learn more about the
> AMM?
>
> Matt Richards
> www.braintan.com
Matt,

Here's the link to AMM
<http://mtmen.org/amm/>


Lonewolf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:37:13 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: MtMan-List: References to Traps

In the reader's opinion, what is the single best reference to traps used
during the Fur Trade era?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:48:03 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

Capt. Lahti,

Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was
referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit
Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across
the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different
from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff...... The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means
cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on
the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the
area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His
buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white
buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but
unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for
you.

Cut-outs were fairly common on Native American shirts from the Plains, but
not with any kind of backing besides their own bare skin. To get a basic
idea of what I mean by cut-outs, check out the collar area of Michelle's
dress at www.braintan.com/buckskindesigns/dress.html . Its not meant to be
period, but she incorporated this traditional motif.

I'm also curious about the basis of your comment "the Mt. Man did not always
where
leather. Cloth was much more popular and widely worn than popularly thought"
While it is clear that cloth was used and not uncommon; in any paintings,
drawings or writings of this era in the Rocky Mtn. that I have seen,
buckskin does predominate. Are you talking about in the settlements....or do
some people believe cloth wasn't used at all?

My last question for ya, is what other leathers do you know were used by Mtn
Men of this era. I know bark tan was common for certain articles, and have
seen clear references to alum tan....anything else?

Really enjoying your knowledge,

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

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