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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #184
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Sunday, December 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 184
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 05:54:43 -0800
From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wooden barrels
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A brother of mine in the AMM makes Barrels His name is Boyd Phillips Phone
number is 360-692-6643 give him a ring. Later Jon T
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">A brother of mine in the AMM makes =
Barrels His name is Boyd Phillips Phone number is 360-692-6643 give him =
a ring. Later Jon T</p>
</font></body></html>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:59:00 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: flint or cap?
There has been some recent discussion about who
would use cap guns and why. One vital
consideration that has to come into such a
discussion is : When? If you're talking about
Lewis & Clark or the Astorians or Lisa's
expetidions or Ashley's enterprising young men,
then there was only one option.
Knowing when cap locks were "invented" really
doesn't help a whole lot because the real issue is
what was available to the person in the field. As
far as American Fur Company records go, the first
kpercussion caps do not appear on their
inventories until the mid to late 1830s. Wyeth's
diary records his gunsmith converting guns from
flint to cap in the mid 30s. He also complains
about his hunters using "miserable flint guns"
which they continually blame for misfires (which
they used as excuses for coming back to camp
empty-handed). At the same time, the Indian
people clearly used flint guns which were new
manufacture even up into the 1870s.
I've also found a lack of clear information among
period journalists as to what kind of gun anyone
was carrying, and what kind of ignition it had.
Once in a long while someone will mention checking
their priming, giving an indication of a flint
gun.
So, cap guns do not seem to have been much
available in the field in the West until maybe the
later 1830s, and there was always the problem of
getting caps.
Allen Chronister
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:35:51 -0700
From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Brown Bess (was: howdy)
After the War of 1812, about 100 soldiers from the disbanded British de
Meuron regiment were hired in 1816 by the Earl of Selkirk. They were hired
to travel to the settlement he was co-sponsoring with the HBC on the Red
River (at modern-day Winnipeg, Manitoba). They brought their Brown Bess
muskets with them. Some of the men took jobs with the HBC and went to
outlying fur posts. After a major flood on the Red River in 1826 (?), a
flood which was about twice the size of the Red River Flood a couple of
years ago, almost all the Selkirk Settlers, including the de Meurons, fled
to the U.S. (Fort Snelling, if I recall correctly). There are also records
of the HBC men using bayonets on their guns around 1821 as hostilities with
the North West Company escalated, suggesting to me that the HBC may have
been bringing in army surplus Brown Besses for defence.
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
agottfre@telusplanet.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:29:04 EST
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Reinactments
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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To all of you living in Washington state, here is a fellow looking for some
local clubs/folks to help him get started. So for all of you that wrote
earlier that you would be willing to help an flatlander get started here is
your chance.
Please reply to him at his E-mail address @aol.com as he is not on the mail
list.
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From: GodsPuppet@aol.com
Return-path: <GodsPuppet@aol.com>
To: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: Reinactments
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:03:46 EST
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hello,
I am searching the internet and happened to run across your name from an
email you wrote concerning a rifle. You mentioned you and your wife are
involved in reenactments. I would love to get involved in them but have no
clue who to contact in my area. I live in Washington State. If you could help
me I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks
Joe
- --part0_912457745_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:09:04 -0800
From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Hi Andrea,
As for myself, I sew my shirts and usually purchase such items as trousers, socks
and kerchiefs. Hope that helps.
Best regards,
Terry Smith
Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
> . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or purchase your
> replica MtMan clothing? Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
> regularly purchase?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
> Amoore2120@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:40:06 EST
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Apology and MtMan shirts
=09I reread my previous post on custom made clothing and to my utter horro=
r I
noticed, as you probably did, that it almost borders on well, rash. I wan=
t to
say that I am sorry as it was never my intention to appear so intent or ha=
rsh
and come across in any such manner=97I would sooner die than offend anybod=
y. I
hope I can get myself out of the dog house one day as I cannot go back and
erase it. Maybe I can try to make up (do you think this might work)? for =
it
by offering cloth MtMan shirt construction/instructions, which, if done
correctly, should start with a discussion of the rectangular shirt from wh=
ich
all other shirts evolved.
=09From the pictures I have seen, the majority of early and present day Mt=
Man
cloth shirts (please correct me here if I am misinformed as I want to lear=
n)
are very simple in design, reflecting the first woven "tops" that were mad=
e
entirely from rectangular pieces with no consideration for body curves. T=
he
shirt consists of a long rectangle of fabric with a hole in the middle for=
the
head, two small rectangles of fabric for the arms and side seams that stit=
ch
it all together in straight seams. The construction is simple with the
center-cut hole for the head and the rectangles attached on each side for =
the
arms (folding them in half along the shoulders) and stitching the sides
together by hand using a running stitch.
=09Shirts started out=97as did most garments in the days before easy acces=
s to
scissors=97as big rectangles of fabric. The rectangular shirt=92s side se=
ams were
simply the selvages of the fabric (selvage is the tightly woven boarder fo=
und
on all woven goods). The selvages are butted together and hand-stitched.
Such seam lines can tend to be somewhat fragile requiring side-seam
reinforcements. It is standard practice to add a reinforcing gusset to ta=
ke
any strain before the seam rips and to allow for more freedom of movement.
=09This is all the time I have for now, more soon on actual construction. =
I
hope some of you will find this information useful.
Sincerely,
Andrea Moore
=09=09
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:57:27 -0600 (CST)
From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Wm. Ashley images
Is anyone aware of any images of William Ashley, where they are published,
and what library or museum collections they might be found, if any?
Thanks
HBC
*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford Curator of History
mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442 Box 43191
FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
****** Living History . . . Because it's there! *******
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:19:44 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Campsite
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Check out the Dec. 1998 issue of Popular Science magazine for a short =
article describing the discovery of what is believed to be a Lewis & =
Clark campsite. Ken Karsmizki, an archaelogist from Montana State =
University's Museum of the Rockies, located Lewis & Clark's Lower =
Portage Camp on private land near Great Falls, Montana. Artifacts were =
found beneath 4 to 7 inches of soil and include an iron pushpin, a gun =
flint, a wooden stake and bison bones with hatchet marks. Radiocarbon =
dating places the organic items at the proper time period. A magnetic =
survey of the area turned up three fire pits, including one that bears =
marks that are thought to be those of the three feet of an iron camp =
kettle. The fire pits were spaced at 50 foot intervals in a straight =
line in accordance with army regulations of the time. (Don't forget that =
this was a military expedition) The camp was situated on a terrace =
above the Missouri which afforded a clear view up and down the river (or =
down and up the river if you think upstream is the other way) and anyone =
approaching from land could be seen across an open prairie. Funding for =
the archaeology was provided by Kampgrounds of America....who would have =
thunk it?!
See what happen when someone teaches a kid to read?
YMOS
Lanney
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Check out the Dec. 1998 issue of =
Popular Science=20
magazine for a short article describing the discovery of what is =
believed to be=20
a Lewis & Clark campsite. Ken Karsmizki, an archaelogist from =
Montana=20
State University's Museum of the Rockies, located Lewis & Clark's =
Lower=20
Portage Camp on private land near Great Falls, Montana. Artifacts =
were=20
found beneath 4 to 7 inches of soil and include an iron pushpin, a gun =
flint, a=20
wooden stake and bison bones with hatchet marks. Radiocarbon =
dating places=20
the organic items at the proper time period. A magnetic survey of =
the area=20
turned up three fire pits, including one that bears marks that are =
thought to be=20
those of the three feet of an iron camp kettle. The fire pits were =
spaced=20
at 50 foot intervals in a straight line in accordance with army =
regulations of=20
the time. (Don't forget that this was a military expedition) =
The=20
camp was situated on a terrace above the Missouri which afforded a clear =
view up=20
and down the river (or down and up the river if you think upstream is =
the other=20
way) and anyone approaching from land could be seen across an open=20
prairie. Funding for the archaeology was provided by Kampgrounds =
of=20
America....who would have thunk it?!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>See what happen when someone teaches =
a kid to=20
read?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Lanney</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:18:16 -0500
From: "David Stahelski" <Stahelski@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: concerning 1800's pants
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To whom it may concern,
Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail address as a possible =
lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century styled pants.If you =
are able to be of any service please send a catalogue to;F Power 27 =
Enrico road Bolton CT 06043=20
thankyou,
Flora.
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>To whom it may concern,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail =
address as a=20
possible lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century styled =
pants.If=20
you are able to be of any service please send a catalogue to;F Power 27 =
Enrico=20
road Bolton CT 06043 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>thankyou,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Flora.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 17:43:04 +0000
From: Jennifer & Bill Lynch <jlynch@bcm.tmc.edu>
Subject: MtMan-List: smoothies
buck,
thank ya for the reply. the information is much appreciated. i was able
to trade my "long land pattern" musket (brown bess) for a custom made 20
gauge "northwest trade gun". with it's 42" barrel and queen anne lock it
may be more of a fowler accordin to some. but by gum it's got a premium
curly maple stock, antiqued barrel, serpentine side plate, oversized
trigger guard and was made with american pride.
http://www.moad.com/jbrown/
a question i have on this'n is i had the gunsmith install sling
brackets which include a button sling pin on the butt. the only info i
have on this option is the track catolog which states this is "a later
style" sling option. was wonderin' if y'all had any info on that? one
more question i might trouble ya with for the sake of historical
philanderin'. i like my mocs as much as the next child, but sometimes
when conditions demand i wear my brogans. i have been told they are
"period" (pre 1840) but i'm wonderin' how far back the "period" for them
goes?
thank ye kindly
bill lynch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:43:21 EST
From: Casapy123@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wm. Ashley images
"William Ashley, Enterprise and Politics in the Trans-Mississippi West," by
Richard M. Clokey, published by University of Oklahoma Press in Norman, OK, in
1980 conatains a picture of Elizabeth Moss Wilcox Ashley. The caption states
it is "the only surviving portrait of a member of the Ashley family." (p.
260.) One would think if a picture was available, it would have showed up in
this book unless it has been uncovered between 1980 and the present.
Jim Hardee, AMM #1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA 95971
(530)283-4566 (H)
(530)283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:11:59 EST
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Picking my brain . . . clothing
In a message dated 12/3/98 8:48:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kramer@kramerize.com writes:
<< What were the methods and materials of bindings, interfacing and linings
common
to the early nineteenth century? What was the range (and method) of sizes in
finished goods intended for trade?
What types, colors and twists of thread were most common? What styles of
seams and stitching were used for the various garments and areas of garments?
Were French fell seams used or were they a development that came after the
sewing machine? What were common seam allowances to protect from
unraveling of
fabrics? Did they vary by fabric? >>
Dear John and others,
I am happy to answer your questions: regarding bindings, were very narrow,
finishing at less than 1/4 inch but not quite an eighth. They were cut on the
straight grain of the fabric as bias would have wasted too much fabric.
No interfacings were used however many pieces, especially those of silk were
underlined with a brownish polished cotton.
Both linen and silk thread was in use, the former was more common and the
latter more expensive. The colors were mostly vegetable or animal dyed, so
there were no colors not commonly found in nature. In fact, one shade of
green was poisonous and women were cautioned not to moisten it in their mouths
because they could become ill or worse!
Running stitch, back stitch, and herringbone stitch were commonly used, the
French seam was rare. The seams were tiny, it would make you tired just to
look at them! The raw edges were roll-hemmed by hand and then the seams
whipped together.
I am sorry I do not have the time right now to elaborate but I hope this will
help you for now. More soon on MtMan cloth shirt construction, fabrics and
techniques that are easy to learn and do.
Sincerely,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoroe2120@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:04:06 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Introduction and large new brain tanning website.
Hey y'all,
I just joined this list and wanted to say hi. I've been a brain tanner by
trade for the past 10 yrs and recently have been building a large website at
www.braintan.com that has over 100 pages and growing, of info and resources,
including articles (some historical), tutorials, a newsletter, online forum,
as well as sources for tools, classes, books and videos.
So a couple of things. If any of you brain tan, and either sell finished
hides or garments, or teach classes....let me know so we can add you to the
resource directory.
Also if any of you have any brain tan oriented questions, fire away. Besides
doing a lot of tanning, I've also researched over 100 accounts of Native
tanning written by early explorers and ethnographers...and the evidence is
much different than the common assumptions of what was going on. There is a
seven page online article at www.braintan.com/articles/bbhtitle.html that is
particularly about this.
I haven't however found practically any accounts of how early mountain men
went about their tanning. If any of you know of any, I'd love to hear about
it.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:27:26 EST
From: TetonTod@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Introduction and large new brain tanning website.
Matt,
Welcome to the list. You will be a welcome addition with your extensive
knowledge of braintanning. I bought a copy of your book from Chris Mcpherson
and it has been invaluable. Good to have you aboard.
Todd Glover
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:22:28 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: roll-hemmed?
> The raw edges were roll-hemmed by
>hand and then the seams whipped together.
Andrea, Please explain "roll-hemmed",how is it done etc.? I think I
understand the whipped together part well enough,but then got lost with
roll-hemmed.
Thanks,
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 19:36:38 EST
From: Traphand@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: smoothies
about the sling holders on the trade gun ,the button in the rear i was not to
wild about
after hearing about the leather slipping off the button.i took a small
carriage bolt sawed the head off ,drilled a small hold into the carriage bolt
to hold the sling holder ,drilled a small hole about a inch behind the guard
in the stock and screwed the bolt into the stock.are you can get ahold of me
at traphand@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:38:33 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw:
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Hello the camp,
It has been a common problem for me to encounter a word in an old =
journal or a shipping manifest from the early nineteenth century and not =
be sure of its meaning. Sometimes, not a clue. To help clear the fog a =
little I recently purchased a CD containing Noah Webster's 1828 =
Dictionary. The dictionary was originally published in two volumes and =
I hope it proves to be a valuable addition to my "library". I got it =
from CTI (Christian Technologies, Inc) at http://www.christiantech.com =
or at info@christiantech.com or call them at 800-366-8320. The price =
is $34.95 including shipping.
If anyone needs an occasional word looked up, contact me and I will try =
to find it. Not long ago somebody asked if anyone knew what a certain =
critter was that was listed on a list of furs that some trapper had =
sold....sounded like a cat of some sort. Does anyone remember what that =
critter was called? I'll look for it in ol' Noah's dictionary and post =
the results, if any.=20
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
rat@htcomp.net
=20
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR><BR> </DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello the camp,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It has been a common problem for me to encounter a =
word in an=20
old journal or a shipping manifest from the early nineteenth century and =
not be=20
sure of its meaning. Sometimes, not a clue. To help clear =
the fog a=20
little I recently purchased a CD containing Noah Webster's 1828=20
Dictionary. The dictionary was originally published in two volumes =
and I=20
hope it proves to be a valuable addition to my =
"library". I got=20
it from CTI (Christian Technologies, Inc) at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.christiantech.com">http://www.christiantech.com</A> =
or at <A=20
href=3D"mailto:info@christiantech.com">info@christiantech.com</A> =
or call=20
them at 800-366-8320. The price is $34.95 including =
shipping.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If anyone needs an occasional word looked up, =
contact me and I=20
will try to find it. Not long ago somebody asked if anyone knew =
what a=20
certain critter was that was listed on a list of furs that some trapper =
had=20
sold....sounded like a cat of some sort. Does anyone remember what =
that=20
critter was called? I'll look for it in ol' Noah's dictionary and =
post the=20
results, if any. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lanney Ratcliff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:rat@htcomp.net">rat@htcomp.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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End of hist_text-digest V1 #184
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