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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, November 10 1998      Volume 01 : Number 171




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:45:44 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

   >Now Since I will be reenacting my anscestors who came over from
   >Germany in the 1750s, I just have to figure out if I want to go with
   >the Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle or the Jaeger!  I know they used
   >both of these in hunting and skirmishes.
   >-mwh
IIRC,most of the early Pennsylvania Gunsmiths were from the German states.
With that in mind I would recomend a Pennsylvania,unless you just got off
the boat;then a Jaeger!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:58:18 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

Washtahay-
some time back I wrote:
>   >Whoopee.  If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job and
>   >wait til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have
>   >gotten a decent gun.
>   >LongWalker c. du B.

And at 11:17 AM 11/10/98 -0600, someone wrote:
>WELL NOW ARE WE TO BECOME THE ELITIST BASTARDS THAT DO NOT WANT NEW COMMERS
>TO JOIN?
    Hmmm...if being an elitist bastard means not wanting to shoot next to
folks with guns with hammers that creep and fire from half- or full-cock
(seen at Cabelas) or guns with gas leaks at the breech (a CVA "Squirrel
Rifle" I bought for my then new bride) or nipples that blow out in to space
when fired (Lyman GPR, summer of '95, a couple T/Cs I have seen over the
years) then yes, I want to be considered an "elitist bastard".  Having been
born a bastard, I had a head start-some might consider it an unfair advantage.
    So come on all, be an elitist bastard with me!  You will be expected to
throw your shop open to folks who bought those less-than-satisfactory guns,
to help repair them, and to teach their new owners the rules of firearms
safety.  Your shop may well become the place new folks turn when they
realize the only way they can afford a good gun (by their standards) is to
build one, buying parts as they can afford them-this may mean your dining
room, like mine, will have 6 rifles in various stages of cunstruction
standing against the bookshelves.  It will mean teaching folks skills from
tracking that deer they hit but didn't put down to tanning the hide to how
to cook over an open fire.  It means being the same thing to the new guys
today as it meant to the folks who got me started were to me.  Frankly, I
figure its a debt I owe.

>its time a few wake up and realize that as you said,"pick up a
>parttime job at minimum wage..." In my real life I commute 2 hours each
>way,for a hell of a lot more than min.wage.
    That's nice.  I have one full time job an hour east of here and another
full time job an hour west of here.  So what?  If it meant the difference
between compromising or getting what I want, I will find a way.  If that
means I spend my day off every week working in a gas station for a couple
months, I do it.   I guess some folks value their TV time more than others.

>Nothing but an original is
>truely authenic,but give the new commers a chance.
    Back when I was getting started, I saw a guy wrap a CVA Kentucky around a
tree.  Turns out he had spent the whole summer trying to get the thing to
work.  I don't want the new guys of today to have to deal with that.  I'm
trying to give the new comers a chance to get started without the added
handicap of a defective rifle.  Sorry that seems unreasonable to you.

> My first muzzleloader was a CVA(still have
>it,still shoots straight,and I  killed 9 deer with it)
    My last CVA is the "Squirrel Rifle" that turned my ex-wife off shooting.
Something about the way smoke came out from under the lockplate...
According to CVA, all I had to do was buy a new barrel-at a cost equal to
the cost of the gun-to fix a manufacturer's defect.  Seems easier to just
avoid the crap in the first place.

> So lets not give a
>newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time he will
>find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate.
    You seem to have the mistaken notion that my dislike of poor quality guns
extends to their owners.  This is not the case.  But I am not going to lie
and tell someone their gun is authentic in appearance when it isn't, or say
it is safe when its not.  If someone is going to buy a sub-$300 production
rifle, at least let him buy one that won't injure him or someone else.

LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard
(I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this award...I'll
do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to me...I
never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:57:29 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard writes:
>  (I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this award...I'll
>  do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to me...I
>  never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)

Hey Jim,

Your withdrawal from those prescription pain killers is starting to show.  You
must almost be back in full form.  <VBG>

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:14:51 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

Hello the list!

Now that we know our right from our left, I need clarification on the
following

 the old saying, "red, right, returning"

returning to where? Upstream, Downstream? What If I start in the middle and go
upstream? Am I going or returning. Another place where the rule of thumb is
meaningless to the uninitiated.

Can any navigator clear this one up for me?

Tom Laidlaw

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:31:53 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

> the old saying, "red, right, returning"
>
>returning to where? Upstream, Downstream?

Returning from the sea, and that means always going upstream, no matter how
far you are from the sea.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html
non illegitimi carborundum est

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:24:13 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

In a message dated 11/10/98 3:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Can any navigator clear this one up for me? >> Thanks Tom, I needed that
laugh.  and to Longwalker re: the rifle posting, again, AMEN.  YHS  Shootz
Himself  (PS, not that this will help, <GGG> but: although
'red,right,returning' is correct for channel markers (headed in or up stream
red is on the right) on ALL water and aircraft, of any size, red is left is
port and never changes. therefore the side of a river, canyon, highway,
mountian range, path or air corridor you are TALKING about changes with your
direction of travel. (i.e. if going north, left is west, if going south left
is east.) but, if you need to communicate that info to somebody else, then a
compass direction is in order i.e. the EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER), something the
NEVER changes, no matter which way you may be headed.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:07:30 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

Washtahay-
sometime back, I (LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard) wrote:
>>  (I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this award...I'll
>>  do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to me...I
>>  never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)
>
And at 05:57 PM 11/10/98 EST, Old Fox wrote:
>
>Your withdrawal from those prescription pain killers is starting to show.
You
>must almost be back in full form.  <VBG>
    Just think how cantankerous I'll be when I get old-maybe 35, let alone
your advanced years!
LongWalker c. du B., etc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:41:30 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

All this discussion about left or right being upstream or downstream just
doesn't matter....whatever I am looking for is ALWAYS on the other bank
anyhow.  Most of the time it is all I can do to remember which way is
straight up.
Lanney Ratcliff
(How am I doing, Eldon?)
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?


>In a message dated 11/10/98 3:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail]
>writes:
>
><< Can any navigator clear this one up for me? >> Thanks Tom, I needed that
>laugh.  and to Longwalker re: the rifle posting, again, AMEN.  YHS  Shootz
>Himself  (PS, not that this will help, <GGG> but: although
>'red,right,returning' is correct for channel markers (headed in or up
stream
>red is on the right) on ALL water and aircraft, of any size, red is left is
>port and never changes. therefore the side of a river, canyon, highway,
>mountian range, path or air corridor you are TALKING about changes with
your
>direction of travel. (i.e. if going north, left is west, if going south
left
>is east.) but, if you need to communicate that info to somebody else, then
a
>compass direction is in order i.e. the EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER), something
the
>NEVER changes, no matter which way you may be headed.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:00:41 -0600
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

Lanney Rue,
  I've seen you many a time when you couldn't tell which way was up. Yeah
buddy ! ! One thing fer sure, what you're looking fer is always on the
other bank or in the bottom of the haversack or packbasket. It is just
Murphy's Law. Anything that can go wrong will, and usually does.
Bye Ya'll
Pendleton

- ----------
> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:41 PM
>
> All this discussion about left or right being upstream or downstream just
> doesn't matter....whatever I am looking for is ALWAYS on the other bank
> anyhow.  Most of the time it is all I can do to remember which way is
> straight up.
> Lanney Ratcliff
> (How am I doing, Eldon?)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:24 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
>
>
> >In a message dated 11/10/98 3:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail]
> >writes:
> >
> ><< Can any navigator clear this one up for me? >> Thanks Tom, I needed
that
> >laugh.  and to Longwalker re: the rifle posting, again, AMEN.  YHS
Shootz
> >Himself  (PS, not that this will help, <GGG> but: although
> >'red,right,returning' is correct for channel markers (headed in or up
> stream
> >red is on the right) on ALL water and aircraft, of any size, red is left
is
> >port and never changes. therefore the side of a river, canyon, highway,
> >mountian range, path or air corridor you are TALKING about changes with
> your
> >direction of travel. (i.e. if going north, left is west, if going south
> left
> >is east.) but, if you need to communicate that info to somebody else,
then
> a
> >compass direction is in order i.e. the EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER),
something
> the
> >NEVER changes, no matter which way you may be headed.
> >
> >
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:33:02 -0600
From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock

I have a Blue Ridge rifle and it is excellent, dispite what many have
mentioned here.

At first the frizzen didn't spark very well, but a dab of Dixie Gun Works'
Kasenit took care of that.  Mine is only the .36 cal (flint of course) but
it is a very good shooter.  I can't blame my misses on the gun.

I have to wonder whether most of these blow-hards even knew which rifle you
were mentioning, or automatically assumed it was the cheaper hawkin'!!

Of course, mention anything here they don't take a shine to and look out
for the backblast.

Good luck with your purchase.

JC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:35:06 -0600
From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

Ditto Jeff, well said!

JC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:10:40 -0800
From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Guns

I'm curious, has ever told Cabelas that they carry/sell inferior weapons?
 That they are, esentially, unsafe?  If not, why not?

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:38:05 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

House Of Muskets in Colorado, see ad in most mags, has a replacement parts
kit for internal parts, that are made by Uberrti, better quality than what
your gun has, plus all parts have been heta treated. The kit is less than
$20.00 and corrects trigger pull as well as cylinder alignment, Don at House
says it fits any of the Italian copies.

Buck
____________________________________
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?


>Washtahay-
>At 12:01 AM 11/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>I have bought several guns from Cabellas.  Their patterson, available
>>intermitantly, is fine.
> Please define "fine".  To date, I have seen 9 Colt Pattersons from
>Cabelas.  All with broken hands or locking bolts.  Total of less than 1000
>shots through the 9.  Is this fine?  Apparently you and I have altogether
>different ideas of acceptable quality, and maybe that is where the problem
is.
>
>> It is made by Uberrti.
> It is made by Uberti (sometimes) but IT IS MADE TO A PRICE, BY THE LOW
>BIDDER.  Those cost saving have to come from somewhere.  Part of the
>savings no doubt come from scale of production, but the rest comes from
>lowering of quality.  Cabelas figures that the average shooter will shoot
>the gun 'X' times-so that is the expected lifetime of the gun.  If it
>breaks before then, oh well.  If it lasts longer be amazed.
>
>> I also bought a Harper's
>>Ferry 1803.  I have it from an expert that it is about as good as a
>>factory version gets, as far as Harper's Ferry goes.
> Who is your expert?  Have you ever set a Harper's Ferry from Cabelas
>alongside an original?  Did you know that most of the Cabelas Harpers Ferry
>guns require work to make them reliable (Navy Arms were the same way, don't
>know about hte new ones)?
>
>>I've sold them
>>both, to buy something else that ' I 'just had to have'.  The Patterson
>>was bought for $250,  The cheapest from a dealer was $325.  Same gun,
>>same maker....
> DIFFERENT QUALITY!  If you don't compare the quality, you aren't talking
>the same thing-remember your third grade math teacher talking about
>comparing apples and oranges?
>
>> A friend bought the Lyman Great plains, in flint, and
>>enjoys it.  It has a coil spring in the lock, so is not authentic, but
>>'who will know'?
> ANyone who looks at it can see the appearance is not authentic.  For all
>of that, it DOES usually work, and it is safe.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:41:44 -0600
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

Should have said, whatever we are looking for is always on the other bank
etc. Wouldn't want to upset my fine small buddy friend of mine. hehehehehe
Pendleton
- ----------
> From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 9:00 PM
>
> Lanney Rue,
>   I've seen you many a time when you couldn't tell which way was up. Yeah
> buddy ! ! One thing fer sure, what you're looking fer is always on the
> other bank or in the bottom of the haversack or packbasket. It is just
> Murphy's Law. Anything that can go wrong will, and usually does.
> Bye Ya'll
> Pendleton
>
> ----------
> > From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
> > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:41 PM
> >
> > All this discussion about left or right being upstream or downstream
just
> > doesn't matter....whatever I am looking for is ALWAYS on the other bank
> > anyhow.  Most of the time it is all I can do to remember which way is
> > straight up.
> > Lanney Ratcliff
> > (How am I doing, Eldon?)
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
> >
> >
> > >In a message dated 11/10/98 3:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > [e-mail]
> > >writes:
> > >
> > ><< Can any navigator clear this one up for me? >> Thanks Tom, I needed
> that
> > >laugh.  and to Longwalker re: the rifle posting, again, AMEN.  YHS
> Shootz
> > >Himself  (PS, not that this will help, <GGG> but: although
> > >'red,right,returning' is correct for channel markers (headed in or up
> > stream
> > >red is on the right) on ALL water and aircraft, of any size, red is
left
> is
> > >port and never changes. therefore the side of a river, canyon,
highway,
> > >mountian range, path or air corridor you are TALKING about changes
with
> > your
> > >direction of travel. (i.e. if going north, left is west, if going
south
> > left
> > >is east.) but, if you need to communicate that info to somebody else,
> then
> > a
> > >compass direction is in order i.e. the EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER),
> something
> > the
> > >NEVER changes, no matter which way you may be headed.
> > >
> > >
> >

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:52:08 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock

Jody Carlson wrote:
>
> I have a Blue Ridge rifle and it is excellent, dispite what many have
> mentioned here.
>
> At first the frizzen didn't spark very well, but a dab of Dixie Gun Works'
> Kasenit took care of that.  Mine is only the .36 cal (flint of course) but
> it is a very good shooter.  I can't blame my misses on the gun.
>
> I have to wonder whether most of these blow-hards even knew which rifle you
> were mentioning, or automatically assumed it was the cheaper hawkin'!!
>
> Of course, mention anything here they don't take a shine to and look out
> for the backblast.

To have as a reason to buy a Blue Ridge rifle, as it's all one an
afford, is honest and valid.  However, to even infer that it's an
accurate reproduction of an original and a high quality firearm is
inaccurate, not resembling the truth by any stretch of anyone's
imagination.

Fred

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:53:38 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

Then, you CAN afford a Deer Creek made rifle.

Fred

Mike Haught wrote:
>
> Well, let's say $500 is in my price range right now.
>
>         -mwh
>
> On Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:35:54 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >what is your price range that will deturmine what you will be able to
> >buy---let me know your price range and i will give you a list of makers
> >that make kits or semifinished guns or complete guns---a bunch of good
> >ones out there and a bunch of junk---dont scrimp on the lock and the
> >barrel---that is the heart of the muzzle loader---
> >
> >HAWK
> >MICHAEL PIERCE
> >1-813-771-1815
> >E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
> >
> >On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500 "Fred A. Miller"
> ><[e-mail]> writes:
> >>Mike Haught wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
> >>> flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
> >>> flinter.
> >>>
> >>> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be
> >>historically
> >>> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of
> >>the
> >>> 1780s through 1810.
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether
> >>this
> >>> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.
> >>
> >>It's NOT, IMHO.  You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland" from
> >>Deer
> >>Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is semi-custom
> >>hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from Cabelas.
> >>
> >>Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some odd-ball
> >>wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are quality
> >>accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers.  Quality doesn't cost
> >>that much more.  Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for data
> >>and
> >>prices.  E-mail address is: [e-mail].
> >>
> >>Best,
> >>
> >>Fred
> >>
> >>
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________
> >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

- --
 - Windows 98 supports real multitasking - it can boot and crash
simultaneously -
Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator
Cornell Univ. Press Services
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:01:27 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

Jim Colburn wrote:
>
> Washtahay-
> At 02:07 AM 11/10/98 EST, you wrote:
> >bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is.  there are
> >LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one)  quality rifles out there in the
> >price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C and Lyman
> >ain't among them.
>         Thanks, but Hawk has been railing against 'em forever.  I'm just tired of
> people saying "I got this great deal on this really authentic gun but its
> broke".

Yeah....and I'm tired of fixing the cotton pickin things for people who
didn't take my recommendation and buy something better in the first
place!

Fred

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:10:30 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

Jeff Powers wrote:

[snip]

> smokepoles than I have. Do I care? NO!!!!!!!!!!! So lets not give a
> newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time he will
> find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate.

Jeff, NO ONE's giving any newcomer a hard time!  There's a BIG
difference between an admission that someone wants to start out
inexpensively because it's all he or she can afford, and the fool who
promotes a barely functional Italian reproduction as a quality firearm.
One's honest and deserves help, but the other is ignorant and doesn't
want any assistance.

Fred

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:26:25 -0700
From: "WILLIAM P. GARRISON" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0CF1.10334640
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

hahahaha, Your right, the Mountain Men are and were some of the most opinionated people in the world, but not a Black Heart in the Bunch.
   W. P. "Griz" Garrison

- ----------
From:     Jody Carlson[SMTP:[e-mail]]
Sent:     Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:33 PM
To:     [e-mail]
Subject:     Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock

I have a Blue Ridge rifle and it is excellent, dispite what many have
mentioned here.

At first the frizzen didn't spark very well, but a dab of Dixie Gun Works'
Kasenit took care of that.  Mine is only the .36 cal (flint of course) but
it is a very good shooter.  I can't blame my misses on the gun.

I have to wonder whether most of these blow-hards even knew which rifle you
were mentioning, or automatically assumed it was the cheaper hawkin'!!

Of course, mention anything here they don't take a shine to and look out
for the backblast.

Good luck with your purchase.

JC



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:31:54 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flinters

In a message dated 98-11-08 23:19:23 EST, you write:

<< Does anyone know of a cyber address for NorthStar West? >>

To the best of my knowledge, they're not on line.  Snail address is:

North Star West
P.O. Box 488
Glencoe, CA 95232

Office phone # 1- [phone]
Shop phone # 1- [phone]

Don't think they even have a fax yet.  I'd recomend calling the shop -- the
old guy at the office sometimes gets things confused -- guess his health ain't
the greatest.  I'd also recomend calling before the end of Nov -- Iron Jaw
plays Santa Clause during Dec & production drops off to nearly nothing.

If you have a copy of Oct Muzzle Blast handy, they have over 5 pages of web
addresses that are related to our sport/hobby/madness/addiction.  North Star
isn't listed there either.  Wish they WERE on line -- I need a new frizen for
my trade gun!

NM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:43:29 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Guns

Washtahay-
At 06:10 PM 11/10/98 -0800, John C. Funk wrote:
>I'm curious, has ever told Cabelas that they carry/sell inferior weapons?
> That they are, esentially, unsafe?  If not, why not?
    We (Tony, Dave, and myself)  went to Cabelas in an attempt to find a
working "Blue Ridge" rifle.  The rifles we examined which were
defective-locks wouldn't spark, touch hole bored in a location that was
covered by the frizzen, chipped out notches in the tumbler, etc were
returned to the rack.  The rifles that were "self-firing" were also
returned to the rack.  When we asked, we were told that this was not a
safety concern as "you shouldn't cock the gun until you are ready to fire".
 Tony gave up and got his money back-I think he finally got a rifle from
TVA or some such.  Dave and I both gave up on getting a rifle there.
    It has been my experience, and that of several others, that Cabelas will
exchange revolvers with you until you give up and ask for your money back.
Apparently this applies to rifles as well.  I CAN tell you that the clerk
we were dealing with wouldn't let us take the frizzen from one rifle, put
it on the lock from a second, and install it on a third rifle (in the
desired caliber).

At 07:38 PM 11/10/98 -0700, Barry Conner wrote:
>House Of Muskets in Colorado, see ad in most mags, has a replacement parts
>kit for internal parts, that are made by Uberrti, better quality than what
>your gun has, plus all parts have been heat treated. The kit is less than
>$20.00 and corrects trigger pull as well as cylinder alignment, Don at House
>says it fits any of the Italian copies.
    In other words, I and my friends aren't the only ones who have had
problems with the quality and performance of the revolvers sold by some
dealers.  Apparently, even Uberti recognizes this if they are offering
replacemant parts kits.  (Thanks Barry-that might save me some time helping
folks fix these!)

At 08:33 PM 11/10/98 -0600, Jody Carlson wrote:
>I have a Blue Ridge rifle and it is excellent, dispite what many have
>mentioned here.
>At first the frizzen didn't spark very well, but a dab of Dixie Gun Works'
>Kasenit took care of that.  Mine is only the .36 cal (flint of course) but
>it is a very good shooter.  I can't blame my misses on the gun.
    So this "excellent" rifle required case-hardening of the frizzen in order
to get it to work?   What other products do you buy that require repair
before performing as advertised?  Do you think because you were willing to
do this everyone else should be?

>
>I have to wonder whether most of these blow-hards even knew which rifle you
>were mentioning, or automatically assumed it was the cheaper hawkin'!!
    Way back when, this thread started when someone (Mike Haught?) asked about
the less expensive rifles from Cabellas.  NOT the expensive Hawken copy.
    I have only seen two of the 'expensive' Hawken rifles-one at the store
with non-working triggers, the other at an informal match where the owner
was asking if anyone had a spare rear sight with them (the one on his
"expensive" Hawken fell out).  Too bad, its a nice looking rifle.
    If you want to degenerate to name calling, may I suggest you do it in
person?

>
>Good luck with your purchase.
    That is all anyone has been wishing anyone all along.
LongWalker c. du B., etc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:17:31 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

- --------------B0D1C690DB48A6EA86B2ABD5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tom,

Don't want to start a fight either. I went to my copy of "The Bluejackets' Manual"
which I got when I went into the Navy back in "62". What the "Manual" says about
the right side of the river or channel was still the same in "93" when I got out.
I'm not a "Navigator" just an old Senior Chief Boatswains Mate. It simply states
that Re: "Red, Right, Returning."-- is a widely used phrase that helps in
remembering the significance of the color on channel markers. The red buoys should
be on the right when a ship is returning from the sea." On the previous page it
said that Re: colored buoys--Red: Marks the right-hand side of a channel (as seen
from seaward). Now the US Navy is only the oldest service and almost if not older
than our country so this way of differentiating which is the right side of the
channel is not something new. I wasn't implying that early frontiersmen/explorers
automatically used that way of differentiating the sides of rivers they navigated.
I said that I thought it reasonable that they would carry on the tradition
established by the sailing fraternity.

I have no more idea what this or that explorer or historical author means when he
refers to the right side of the river than you do. If he gives clues then we might
be able to figure it out. But to say that you "have no doubt what is meant by the
right or left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth." flies in the face of
maritime law and the way the whole of the sailing/boating/ship handling  looks at
it and you don't have to be a navigator. If that is what you want it to mean to
you then just let the rest of the world know.

The fact that ships at sea and planes in the air carry a red light to port or the
left side and a green light to starboard or on the right side has nothing to do
with marking channels or which side of the channel is considered the right or the
left side. Why vessels are so marked is not recorded in my literature but the
reason is so you may know by sight whether the vessel/plane is  approaching or
coming from the left or right. (The red and green running lights are not visible
from the rear or dead astern.) I have no idea why Merriam Webster would say the
opposite of what the Maritime community says but I think in this case MW is not
the one you want to rely on when navigating inland waters.

I looked with great curiosity in my copy of "Astoria" by Washington Irving as
edited by Richard Dilworth Rust and could not find the references you directed us
to on the pages indicated. Are we looking at two different books? In any case, if
Hunt were on his westward portion of the journey it would seem reasonable that if
he were going down stream, and cared little or nothing for what I have found
above, he would describe the right side of the river while looking down stream.
Since I can't find this passage in my book on those pages I can't testify to the
validity of your observation. You may be right. I do know that most every one who
travels on rivers for a living will say the right side of a river is "as you look
up stream". So take it for how  it was offered. In the spirit of sharing and
learning, I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/98 12:11:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<  < stream. >>
>  >
>  > A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right, returning" I
> agree
>  > with you Capt. Lathi. >>
>
>  Hello the list
>
> I don't want to start a big fight, but I asked this question of Merriam -
> Webster some time ago and they replied "looking downstream." Subsequent
> reading confirmed this.
>
>  One such place is in "Astoria", by Washington Irving.
>  "Astoria" p. 257 tells of Hunt taking the right bank, and later, on page 262,
> 25 lines from the top: For the two following days they continued
> westward...along river...until they crossed it just before its junction with
> the Snake, which was still running north.
>
> Read Chittenden's "The American Fur Trade of the Far West. Page 191-192,
> volume 1
> "Hunt, with 22 persons...took the right bank. ...retrograde march resolved
> upon...Hunt now left Day and Crooks and hastened on to Weiser River, which he
> had passed on the 26th of the previous month. Among the
> Indians...upstream...he remained until Dec. 21.
>
> Since  the Weiser comes in from the east, if Hunt looked downstream he would
> be on the right bank.
>
> There are many other references. I will look for some more. And I'll bet you
> will find it in your own reading now hat your subconscious is working on it.
>
> I do agree that people who use this reference should also use other clues.
>
> I will look for some more, but I have no doubt what is meant by the right or
> left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth.
>
> Tom Laidlaw



- --------------B0D1C690DB48A6EA86B2ABD5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Tom,

<P>Don't want to start a fight either. I went to my copy of "The Bluejackets'
Manual" which I got when I went into the Navy back in "62". What the "Manual"
says about the right side of the river or channel was still the same in
"93" when I got out. I'm not a "Navigator" just an old Senior Chief Boatswains
Mate. It simply states that Re: "Red, Right, Returning."-- is a widely
used phrase that helps in remembering the significance of the color on
channel markers. The red buoys should be on the right when a ship is returning
from the sea." On the previous page it said that Re: colored buoys--Red:
Marks the right-hand side of a channel (as seen from seaward). Now the
US Navy is only the oldest service and almost if not older than our country
so this way of differentiating which is the right side of the channel is
not something new. I wasn't implying that early frontiersmen/explorers
automatically used that way of differentiating the sides of rivers they
navigated. I said that I thought it reasonable that they would carry on
the tradition established by the sailing fraternity.

<P>I have no more idea what this or that explorer or historical author
means when he refers to the right side of the river than you do. If he
gives clues then we might be able to figure it out. But to say that you
"have no doubt what is meant by the right or left side. It is looking downstream
at the mouth." flies in the face of maritime law and the way the whole
of the sailing/boating/ship handling  looks at it and you don't have
to be a navigator. If that is what you want it to mean to you then just
let the rest of the world know.

<P>The fact that ships at sea and planes in the air carry a red light to
port or the left side and a green light to starboard or on the right side
has nothing to do with marking channels or which side of the channel is
considered the right or the left side. Why vessels are so marked is not
recorded in my literature but the reason is so you may know by sight whether
the vessel/plane is  approaching or coming from the left or right.
(The red and green running lights are not visible from the rear or dead
astern.) I have no idea why Merriam Webster would say the opposite of what
the Maritime community says but I think in this case MW is not the one
you want to rely on when navigating inland waters.

<P>I looked with great curiosity in my copy of "Astoria" by Washington
Irving as edited by Richard Dilworth Rust and could not find the references
you directed us to on the pages indicated. Are we looking at two different
books? In any case, if Hunt were on his westward portion of the journey
it would seem reasonable that if he were going down stream, and cared little
or nothing for what I have found above, he would describe the right side
of the river while looking down stream. Since I can't find this passage
in my book on those pages I can't testify to the validity of your observation.
You may be right. I do know that most every one who travels on rivers for
a living will say the right side of a river is "as you look up stream".
So take it for how  it was offered. In the spirit of sharing and learning,
I remain.....

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'
<BR><I></I>
<BR><I></I>

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>In a message dated 11/10/98 12:11:13 PM Pacific Standard
Time,
<BR>[e-mail] writes:

<P><<  < stream. >>
<BR> >
<BR> > A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right,
returning" I
<BR>agree
<BR> > with you Capt. Lathi. >>

<P> Hello the list

<P>I don't want to start a big fight, but I asked this question of Merriam
- -
<BR>Webster some time ago and they replied "looking downstream." Subsequent
<BR>reading confirmed this.

<P> One such place is in "Astoria", by Washington Irving.
<BR> "Astoria" p. 257 tells of Hunt taking the right bank, and later,
on page 262,
<BR>25 lines from the top: For the two following days they continued
<BR>westward...along river...until they crossed it just before its junction
with
<BR>the Snake, which was still running north.

<P>Read Chittenden's "The American Fur Trade of the Far West. Page 191-192,
<BR>volume 1
<BR>"Hunt, with 22 persons...took the right bank. ...retrograde march resolved
<BR>upon...Hunt now left Day and Crooks and hastened on to Weiser River,
which he
<BR>had passed on the 26th of the previous month. Among the
<BR>Indians...upstream...he remained until Dec. 21.

<P>Since  the Weiser comes in from the east, if Hunt looked downstream
he would
<BR>be on the right bank.

<P>There are many other references. I will look for some more. And I'll
bet you
<BR>will find it in your own reading now hat your subconscious is working
on it.

<P>I do agree that people who use this reference should also use other
clues.

<P>I will look for some more, but I have no doubt what is meant by the
right or
<BR>left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth.

<P>Tom Laidlaw</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

- --------------B0D1C690DB48A6EA86B2ABD5--

------------------------------

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