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hist_text-digest       Monday, November 9 1998       Volume 01 : Number 169




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:23:09 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

Coast Guard 'Rules Of The Road' say direction is determined as you are looking
UPSTREAM.  The colored lights referred to in an earlier posting may be a bit
confusing. There is an old saying about a sailor named Red, who left port.
RED=LEFT=PORT.  YHS, Shootz Himself

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:18:32 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Flinters

Does anyone know of a cyber address for NorthStar West?
Chases Hawks

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 23:31:04 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

In a message dated 11/8/98 12:56:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Please clarify this for me.
 When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a river is
 he refering to looking up or downstream?
 Thanks.
         Dick >>
Hi, Dick

Looking downstream, Dick. Same question I had a couple years ago. Now that you
know you'll encounter it in your reading.

Tom Laidlaw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:32:23 -0600
From: "Johnny Rutledge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock

IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER.  THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY.
- -----Original Message-----
From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock


>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF INPUT
>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL
>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP===
>
>HAWK
>MICHAEL PIERCE
>1-813-771-1815
>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>
>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE"
><[e-mail]> writes:
>>Hello List:
>>
>>    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I
>>could get
>>an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will
>>fit it
>>without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the
>>Manufacture.
>>
>>                                                thanks LONE_WOLF
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 07:04:50 -0600
From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum

Although aluminum is the most abundant metal in the crust of the earth, it
was not used in antiquity because it has never been found in a free metal
form.  Aluminum is found naturally as a silicate or oxide.   It was first
isolated in 1825 by  Hans Christian Oersted
This is from Funk and Wagnalls New Encyclopedia (1979)

For aluminum, a clear distinction must be made between when it was
discovered and when it was produced in quantities even sufficient to
determine its properties, much less make cutlery.

The 1995 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia says that

"In 1845, after many years of experimentation, Friedrich WOHLER succeeded
... in producing globules of aluminum large enough to allow the
determination of some of its properties.   In 1854, Henri Sainte-Claire
Deville ... produced the first commercial quantities of aluminum in a small
plant near Paris."

Funk and Waggnals says the Napoleon connection was through Napoleon III, who
funded Henri-Sainte-Clair Deville experiments to produce aluminum.  It was
so much a curiosity that Deville exhibited it at the Paris Exposition in
1855.  Napoleon III (1808-1873) was the nephew of the Napoleon who sold us
Louisianna.

I have heard the "conventional gray beard wisdom" that aluminum metal
existed in the period, but it was so expensive that only nobility could
afford it.  Even this is not true, unless you possiblly consider flecks of
the stuff smaller than globules as being of any utility.

Iron Burner

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 06:38:57 -0700
From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?

Interesting question.  Don't know about in a historic context but modern river
rats are
always facing downstream.  ie river right is your right hand side when facing
downstream.  It's kind of a general rule that prevents confusion in whitewater
situations.  Like having certain colored bouys on your right side when at sea
(which I didn't know.  I also didn't know the Army Corps faced upstream.).
Again I don't know if this would apply to boatmen with keelboats or steam.
Regardless of what the "rule" is it depends upon both partys in a conversation
knowing that rule.  If you read, hypothectically, "traveled the right side of
the river" in some Mtn man's journal we first might need to consider the
writer's backround.  Was he a sea-goer at one time, an engineer, a keal
boater, or strictly horse?  Gets confusing don't it?  When reading journals
perhaps it's best when encountering such a direction reference to read ahead
and find the destination or some other recognizable landmark before assuming
the writer is facing up or downstream.

Kurt

[e-mail] wrote:

> Please clarify this for me.
> When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a river is
> he refering to looking up or downstream?
> Thanks.
>         Dick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 09:08:52 -0500
From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum

John Kramer wrote:
>
> Jon T.
>
> The only attributed cookware of George Washington's, I am aware of, is
> pictured
> in "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution"
> George C.
> Neumann and Frank J. Kravic  ISBN 0-8117-0394-0
>
> Page 94 shows the cook kit with plates, platters and pots all in tin.   The
> confusion may result from the top of the Washington Monument being capped in
> aluminum (the most expensive metal at the time it was built).
>
> It is unlikely any early cookware was made of metal more valuable than gold.
>
> I'm still digging for an exact date but, if memory serves to something noted
> long ago in passing; the first aluminum was made somewhere in the late 1850's.
>
> John...
>
> At 06:33 AM 11/8/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >
> > Paul J. I also hope someone can come up some references for George
> > Washington's  cook ware Now days it takes electric power to make aluminum I
> > am union pipe welder by trade and I worked with an old welder who could weld
> > aluminum with a torch.  But me it took a Tig welder.  But I can do magic
> with
> > a Tig torch.  I am going to also send this to the Hist-list.  Later Jon T
> >
> > ----------
> > : From: Paul Jacobson <[e-mail]>
> > : To: [e-mail]
> > : Subject: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
> > : Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 1:39 PM
> > :
> > : These are interesting questions...I hope someone knows the answer and will
> > : include it here.  I can't add a thing of real value, except that my
> mother,
> > : bless her memory, got a set of aluminum cook ware for a wedding present in
> > : the late 20's/early 30's.  Rumor was the aluminum would poison the cook,
> > : but her South Dakota good sense thought that silly.  I still have 'em, and
> > : the big pan makes damn good popcorn.  It has since I was little watching
> > : Wallace Berry on our first TV.
> > :
> > : Cougar Heart
> > : Paul Jacobson #1597
> > : ----------
> > : > From: WIDD-Tim Austin <[e-mail]>
> > : > To: [e-mail]
> > : > Subject: AMM-List: aluminum
> > : > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:37 AM
> > : >
> > : > Mr Kramer just brought up a subject that I have been interested in
> > : > because of its current availability.  Aluminum.  Several years ago I
> read
> > : > that a General George Washington, revolution war era, had a cook set of
> > : > aluminum.  Seems I also read the a Mr. Stewart took a set of aluminum
> > : > cook ware with him West of the Mississippi River when he went.  Does
> > : > anyone have the exact documentation on this subject, or did my memory
> > : > totally fail me on this one?
> > : >
> > : > Thank you for your assistance.
> > : >
> > : > Tim Austin #1564
> > : >
> > : > --------------------
> > : > Aux Ailments de Pays!
> > :
> > : --------------------
> > : Aux Ailments de Pays!
>
> John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
> Kramer's Best Antique Improver
> >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>         >>>As good as old!<<<
>
> <http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
> mail to: <[e-mail]>

  Napoleon's buttons spoon ,plate,fork,and a cup was made from
aluminum such came the name Napoleon"s silver.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 12:01:46 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum

At 09:08 AM 11/9/98 -0500, Paul wrote:
>
>=A0 Napoleon's buttons spoon ,plate,fork,and a cup was made from
>aluminum such came the name Napoleon"s silver.
>=20

Napoleon III -- maybe -- certainly not the little Corporal who died in 1821
four years before Oersted first isolated the metal. =20

Worldwide aluminum production in 1886 (the year the Hall-Heroult process=
 with
bauxite was discovered) was less than 100 pounds.

Napoleon III may have had aluminum stuff made from metal derived from
experiments he funded for Deville.  It was certainly not common.  Rare and
precious as befits an Emperor.  But only after 1850 and before 1873 when
Napoleon III died.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:28:52 -0600
From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock

YOU MIGHT NOT WANT MY HELP BUT HERE IS ABOUT ALL I CAN DO FOR YOU-----

it is not a hawkins flinter it is a plains style of rifle that they call
a hawkins---that is like a tompson center being a Hawkins rifle----I own
2 originals---one in percussion and one in flint and have 2 others that
are custom made to look like a hawkins---they are plains rifles---OR
REPRODUCTIONS

NOW TO YOUR QUESTION AT HAND ABOUT THE LOCK----to the best of my
knowledge there is not a exact duplicate replacement for the one you
have---its shape and size is a bit different than most of the ones out
there that are made---suggest you  call siler and order a catalog---they
have a plate that can be cut to fit your opening or you can use their
guts and make your own plate to fit in the hole you have---their internal
parts are of good quality  and can be assembeled using a drill press and
3 different drill bita and one tap----they have a plastic alignment tool
that comes with their kits for drilling---their instructions are real
clear and understandable---follow the directions and take your time and
dont horse the tap(YOU DO AND YOU WILL BREAK IT)---make sure you use the
size of drill that they recomend ---when i put their kits together i
usually build A dozen at a time and have made my own perminant drill
jigs---can put one together in anout 30 min---if you have never put one
together then it will take about 2 hrs if you take it slow and watch what
you are doing---their kit runs less than  $50.00.

PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR BEING SNIPPY ABOUT HAWKINS---THAT IS A PET PEVE OF
MINE ---A HAWKINS IS A HAWKINS AND ANYTHING ELSE IS A REPRODUCTION OR A
PLAINS RIFLE---MY ORIGINAL HAWKINS HAS MADE MEAT ALMOST EVER YEAR FOR THE
LAST 10 OR 12----YELLOW FEATHER CAN VERIFY THAT----JUST CAME FROM
ARKANSAS WHERE WE HUNTED TOGETHER---FOR MUZZLE LOADING SEASON---i KILLED
A BIG DOE-------BTW---i NORMALLY HUNT DURING RIFLE SEASON WITH THE SAME
RIFLE.

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:32:23 -0600 "Johnny Rutledge"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER.  THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:54 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
>
>
>>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF
>INPUT
>>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL
>>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP===
>>
>>HAWK
>>MICHAEL PIERCE
>>1-813-771-1815
>>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>>
>>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE"
>><[e-mail]> writes:
>>>Hello List:
>>>
>>>    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I
>>>could get
>>>an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will
>
>>>fit it
>>>without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the
>>>Manufacture.
>>>
>>>                                                thanks LONE_WOLF
>>>
>>>
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:35:54 -0600
From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?

what is your price range that will deturmine what you will be able to
buy---let me know your price range and i will give you a list of makers
that make kits or semifinished guns or complete guns---a bunch of good
ones out there and a bunch of junk---dont scrimp on the lock and the
barrel---that is the heart of the muzzle loader---

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500 "Fred A. Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Mike Haught wrote:
>>
>> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
>> flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
>> flinter.
>>
>> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be
>historically
>> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of
>the
>> 1780s through 1810.
>>
>> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether
>this
>> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.
>
>It's NOT, IMHO.  You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland" from
>Deer
>Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is semi-custom
>hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from Cabelas.
>
>Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some odd-ball
>wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are quality
>accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers.  Quality doesn't cost
>that much more.  Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for data
>and
>prices.  E-mail address is: [e-mail].
>
>Best,
>
>Fred
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:39:29 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rubber goods

Regarding the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
As I recall, the frame was lugged over the mountains to the first =
western
flowing stream, where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of =
covering
it with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech" devices
produced to support the expedition, such as the well known lead =
canisters
with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803 pattern Harper's Ferry rifles. =
This
one, however, failed, despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted =
in
"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the skins, which
produced slight slits which opened up under strain, and they couldn't =
get
adequate pitch or a substitute for sealing. After some weeks of effort,
Lewis had to abandon the project and cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark =
had
moved men downstream until they found cottonwoods big enough to make
dugouts, which carried them down river to the Pacific.=20
Pat Quilter

- -----Original Message-----
From: John L. Allen [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods


Ho the list,
=A0
A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and =
Clark
had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to =
rubber
ponchos, etc.
=A0
Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame =
(made
in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great =
Falls
where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to be
covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description of =
it,
it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan
bullboat.
=A0
John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two =
expeditions
into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions =
them
in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great =
Salt
Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year, =
on
Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it =
wasn't
"as well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition. =
This
suggests a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some =
fashion.
These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a
wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he=A0 mentions several places =
"filling
our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald =
Jackson
and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 =
vols.
Univ. of Illinois Press.
=A0
If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then =
obviously
the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of =
rubber
or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky =
Mountain
fur trade era.
=A0
Keep your powder dry.
=A0
John
=A0
Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>=20
=A0
=A0

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:37:26 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock

Hey John.... take the CAPS LOCK off... yer yelling... :))


- -----Original Message-----
From: Johnny Rutledge <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock


>IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER.  THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:54 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
>
>
>>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF INPUT
>>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL
>>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP===
>>
>>HAWK
>>MICHAEL PIERCE
>>1-813-771-1815
>>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>>
>>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE"
>><[e-mail]> writes:
>>>Hello List:
>>>
>>>    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I
>>>could get
>>>an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will
>>>fit it
>>>without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the
>>>Manufacture.
>>>
>>>                                                thanks LONE_WOLF
>>>
>>>
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:46:16 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: direction again

Hello the List
I'm getting mixed answers to my prior question.  What caused me to ask was
this line from Dale Morgan's  1953 book 'Jedediah Smith' in which Morgan
states....
"The Hudson's Bay Company's advance base, Flathead Post, was situated on the
right bank of Clark's Fork at present Eddy".
I can't find Eddy on a map but it's beside the point.
So the question remains.... when one writes /says that something is on a
particular side of a river, is he looking upstream or downstream?    (I've
always assumed upstream but something has made me doubt).
'Thank you' to all who took the time to reply previously.
      Dick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:52:13 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction again

In a message dated 11/9/98 10:48:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< So the question remains.... when one writes /says that something is on a
 particular side of a river, is he looking upstream or downstream?    (I've
 always assumed upstream but something has made me doubt).
 'Thank you' to all who took the time to reply previously.
       Dick
  >>
Downstream, Dick

I'll try to find a reference that includes that clue.

Tom Laidlaw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:20:08 -0600
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction again

http://roadmaps.lycos.com:90/cgi-bin/mqcustomconnect?screen=find&link=map&city=Eddy&state=MT&orig_lat=475583&orig_lng=-1151322&orig_name=Eddy&lat=475583&lng=-1151322&orig_icon_on=1&orig_search=1&orig_iconid=2&level=7&event=zoom

shows Eddy, Montana on the right bank, looking _downstream_, of Clark
Fork

Iron Burner

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> . . .   What caused me to ask was
> this line from Dale Morgan's  1953 book 'Jedediah Smith' in which Morgan
> states....
> "The Hudson's Bay Company's advance base, Flathead Post, was situated on the
> right bank of Clark's Fork at present Eddy".

> So the question remains.... when one writes /says that something is on a
> particular side of a river, is he looking upstream or downstream?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:44:06 -0600
From: Monte Holder <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark slept here

  Hey camp,  in the December Popular Science there is an article in "NEwsfronts" about a campsite believed to have been the Lower Portage Camp near Great Falls Montana. ITs  on page 21 and pretty interesting, not worth buying the
whole mag, but I got a free subscription  here at school for some reason.

Monte Holder
Saline Co MO

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:28:01 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock

on a humorous note: you really gotta love this list....... left is right or
right is left (depending on if you're the government or a mountain man);
cabela's makes Hawkins rifles (thought only the Hawkins did that or maybe they
made plains rifles), and aluminIUM (an elemental, very common metal) and
aluminUM are the same thing. one encyclopedia say aluminIUM has been used
since antiquity and another quote says its not so (even they were not refering
to the same thing).  you can't say it isn't interesting, even though its
somewhat confusing at times. It seems the best advise about these things is
the same as it always has been....... check the written records; see if it was
DOCUMENTED as being in use during the period and most importantly, COMMUNICATE
with those you are traveling with to be sure where you are going/meeting. YHS,
Shootz Himself

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:17:27 -0800
From: "Terry Landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: re:mt-man list:cabelas flintlock

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I bought a cabelas percussion used this year. not only is it heavy in the
field, but due to the poor sites (which self adjust when you don't want them
to! and the poor beach design which seems to misfire a lot.) I missed a 6
point elk and several cows in 11 days worth of hunting. I personally bought
a tvm Virginia style rifle in flint. the base price for their guns is about
average to moderate, but several x-tras are available to really customize
your gun to the way you want it. heres their URL  http://www.avsia.com/tvm/

check around before you buy as others have said junk is junk.  I looked long
and hard before I bought mine, and aside from making your own- the best bet
seems to be pay for what you get.

Terry Landis

Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a buckskiner and
soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!




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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3>I bought a cabelas percussion used this year. not only is it =
heavy in the=20
field, but due to the poor sites (which self adjust when you don't want =
them to!=20
and the poor beach design which seems to misfire a lot.) I missed a 6 =
point elk=20
and several cows in 11 days worth of hunting. I personally bought a tvm =
Virginia=20
style rifle in flint. the base price for their guns is about average to=20
moderate, but several x-tras are available to really customize your gun =
to the=20
way you want it. heres their URL  <A=20
href=3D"http://www">http://www.</A>avsia.com/tvm/ </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3>   </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3>check around before you buy as =
others have said=20
junk is junk.  I looked long and hard before I bought mine, and =
aside from=20
making your own- the best bet seems to be pay for what you=20
get.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3>Terry Landis</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D5>
<P>Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a =
buckskiner and=20
soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!=20
<DIV></DIV>
<P></P></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:26:33 -0500
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods

More on the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:

As my original message stated, the iron frame boat was intended to be
covered with skins or bark. Rubber was never--as far as I know--even
suggested.

The boat was NOT carried across the mountains. It was abandoned during the
portage around Great Falls (of the Missouri). After covering the iron frame
with skins on July 9, 1805 (above the Great Falls), to produce the
collapsible boat, Lewis tried to make her river-worthy. The buffalo hides,
however, shrunk and the iron boat foundered. Knowing that it was too late in
the season to get and prepare more buffalo hides, the decision was made to
abandon the iron frame.To quote from the Journals, Lewis's entry for
Tuesday, July 9th, 1805: I therefore relinquished all further hope of my
favorite boat and ordered her to be sunk in the water, that the skins might
become soft in order the better to take her in peices [sic] tomorrow and
deposited the iron fraim [sic] at this place as it could probably be of no
further service to us.

This was end of the iron boat experiment. Ken Karsminski of the Museum of
the Rockies in Bozeman, MT, has made a concerted search for the iron frame
in the Great Falls area without success. My guess is that the Indians found
it and broke it up for the iron to use in war-axes, etc.

But the iron or collapsible boat did most certainly not cross the Rockies
with the Expedition.

Keep your powder dry.

John.

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


- -----Original Message-----
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:41 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rubber goods


>Regarding the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
>As I recall, the frame was lugged over the mountains to the first western
>flowing stream, where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of covering
>it with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech" devices
>produced to support the expedition, such as the well known lead canisters
>with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803 pattern Harper's Ferry rifles.
This
>one, however, failed, despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted in
>"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the skins, which
>produced slight slits which opened up under strain, and they couldn't get
>adequate pitch or a substitute for sealing. After some weeks of effort,
>Lewis had to abandon the project and cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark had
>moved men downstream until they found cottonwoods big enough to make
>dugouts, which carried them down river to the Pacific.
>Pat Quilter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John L. Allen [mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 AM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
>
>
>Ho the list,
>
>A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and Clark
>had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to rubber
>ponchos, etc.
>
>Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame
(made
>in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great Falls
>where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to be
>covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description of it,
>it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan
>bullboat.
>
>John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two expeditions
>into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions them
>in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great Salt
>Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year, on
>Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it
wasn't
>"as well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition. This
>suggests a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some fashion.
>These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a
>wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he mentions several places "filling
>our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald Jackson
>and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols.
>Univ. of Illinois Press.
>
>If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then obviously
>the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of rubber
>or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky Mountain
>fur trade era.
>
>Keep your powder dry.
>
>John
>
>Dr. John L. Allen
>21 Thomas Drive
>Storrs, CT 06268
>860/487-1346
>[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:38:13 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rubber goods

Thanks for the correction. I have always been a little hazy on the details
of the Corp's crossing of the Rockies, other than knowing it took a long
time and dashed their hopes of an easy "voyageur" style route to the west
coast. I just assumed that they would not try to use the collapsible until
they had crossed the continental divide, whereas your notes show that they
(sensibly) tried to test the boat after clearing the first major barrier to
navigation. Shows the dangers of using "common sense" and general memories
rather than the actual documentation.
Pat Quilter

- -----Original Message-----
From: John L. Allen [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 3:27 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods


More on the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:

As my original message stated, the iron frame boat was intended to be
covered with skins or bark. Rubber was never--as far as I know--even
suggested.

The boat was NOT carried across the mountains. It was abandoned during the
portage around Great Falls (of the Missouri). After covering the iron frame
with skins on July 9, 1805 (above the Great Falls), to produce the
collapsible boat, Lewis tried to make her river-worthy. The buffalo hides,
however, shrunk and the iron boat foundered. Knowing that it was too late in
the season to get and prepare more buffalo hides, the decision was made to
abandon the iron frame.To quote from the Journals, Lewis's entry for
Tuesday, July 9th, 1805: I therefore relinquished all further hope of my
favorite boat and ordered her to be sunk in the water, that the skins might
become soft in order the better to take her in peices [sic] tomorrow and
deposited the iron fraim [sic] at this place as it could probably be of no
further service to us.

This was end of the iron boat experiment. Ken Karsminski of the Museum of
the Rockies in Bozeman, MT, has made a concerted search for the iron frame
in the Great Falls area without success. My guess is that the Indians found
it and broke it up for the iron to use in war-axes, etc.

But the iron or collapsible boat did most certainly not cross the Rockies
with the Expedition.

Keep your powder dry.

John.

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


- -----Original Message-----
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:41 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rubber goods


>Regarding the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
>As I recall, the frame was lugged over the mountains to the first western
>flowing stream, where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of covering
>it with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech" devices
>produced to support the expedition, such as the well known lead canisters
>with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803 pattern Harper's Ferry rifles.
This
>one, however, failed, despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted in
>"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the skins, which
>produced slight slits which opened up under strain, and they couldn't get
>adequate pitch or a substitute for sealing. After some weeks of effort,
>Lewis had to abandon the project and cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark had
>moved men downstream until they found cottonwoods big enough to make
>dugouts, which carried them down river to the Pacific.
>Pat Quilter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John L. Allen [mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 AM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
>
>
>Ho the list,
>
>A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and Clark
>had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to rubber
>ponchos, etc.
>
>Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame
(made
>in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great Falls
>where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to be
>covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description of it,
>it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan
>bullboat.
>
>John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two expeditions
>into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions them
>in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great Salt
>Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year, on
>Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it
wasn't
>"as well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition. This
>suggests a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some fashion.
>These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a
>wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he mentions several places "filling
>our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald Jackson
>and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols.
>Univ. of Illinois Press.
>
>If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then obviously
>the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of rubber
>or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky Mountain
>fur trade era.
>
>Keep your powder dry.
>
>John
>
>Dr. John L. Allen
>21 Thomas Drive
>Storrs, CT 06268
>860/487-1346
>[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #169
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