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hist_text-digest      Wednesday, November 4 1998      Volume 01 : Number 166




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 19:34:01 -0500
From: "Carpenter's" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole

Matt Despain wrote:

> Dear Gene:
>
> Yes the general area of the battle was near the area where Teton Pass
> enters into the old Pierre's Hole. The exact sight is not known.  You can't
> trust Washington Irving's account fully since we don't know what he added
> or left out of Bonneville's original manuscript.  But there are indications
> that it occured near a marshy zone, which if you look on todays USGS maps
> is up the canyon a ways and which corresponds to the historic path that
> existed north of the modern highway there (you can see this natural defile
> on the USGSmap too).  I have heared rumor of an archeological dig to be
> done up there, perhaps much the same as was done at the Little Bighorn
> Battlefield in the 1980s.  Until then we just don'd know for certain.
>
> Matt Despain
> University of Oklahoma

Dear List:
In 1989 or 90, while on a trip visiting all the original sites, following
Gowan's book, I went to a museum, or a historical society in, I believe,
Tetonia, ID.  The ladies there sent me over to an elderly Mormon gentleman, who
was then in his nineties.  We didn't know him and he didn't know us.  But, when
we knocked on the screen door, we heard a voice inside say, come on in, without
any introduction or reason for being there. Try that in L.A.  I wrote his name
down in the notes I was taking.  He told me that the fortification breastwork,
from the battle, still existed when he was a kid, growing up in that area.
I'll have my wife try and find these notes, if any one is interested.  She may
know where they are.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:26:55 -0800
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Carson

Waugh..

    I am going to Taos, NM in March and will take a class about Kit Carson
when he was in the Taos area.
    Please recommend your suggested book: I find many about Carson.
Thanks
Gail Carbiener

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:26:55 -0800
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Carson

Waugh..

    I am going to Taos, NM in March and will take a class about Kit Carson
when he was in the Taos area.
    Please recommend your suggested book: I find many about Carson.
Thanks
Gail Carbiener

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:55:38 -0800
From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: reply

Allen,
The reference to the rain coats  was tongue-in-cheek.  No, you made no
such inference.  I was just curious to see if you had any in depth
information on the subject matter at hand.  Thanks for your insights.
John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 03:58:16 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos

John,

Maybe I can help a bit.

India rubber is natural rubber also known as caoutchouc.=A0 There are modern
perversions of the term used to describe other materials; that was not the
case
during our period of interest.

Before processing it is a light cream or dark amber color.=A0 It is the=
 latex
(milky juice) of rubber trees.=A0 It was first polymerized by drying and
coagulation.

I don't have the exact date reference at hand for the first vulcanization of
rubber by Goodyear.=A0 As I remember it would, AT BEST, have been pretty
uncommon
before 1840.=A0=20
Vulcanization only improved strength, flexibility and durability - it also
allowed for very hard rubber which could be cast into combs and such; the
natural rubber was used in much the same ways prior to 1840.=A0 Not nearly=
 so
broadly to so many purposes.

Rubberized cotton canvas of modern manufacture would probably be as close as
anyone could get commercially today.=A0 It wouldn't be much different than=
 what
was made before 1840.=A0 More common today, I would suspect, would be a
synthetic
rubber which should offer no functional difference.=A0 Perhaps better=
 wearing
qualities.

I have encountered references to "rubber sheeting" to date I have not
determined if it referred to rubberized cloth or thin sheets of natural
rubber;
or both.=A0 I have not had any rubber I was certain was not vulcanized to
determine if would have the strength for use in pure sheets to be practical.=
=20
Then again I haven't spent a lot of time researching rubber and rubber=
 goods.=20
I am unaware of existing examples and suspect it all rotted away.

Unless used with great care waterproof goods will condense lots of water=
 where
you may not want it.=A0 Often more than if you used untreated canvas.=A0 I=
 would
suspect the most common use for rubberized cloth or oil treated canvas would
have been for protecting goods from weather - where condensation would not
be a
problem.=A0 For example for bundling goods sealed in a cache.  Or packing
foodstuffs on a mule.

I have not encountered exact reference to colors finished goods may have=
 been
traded in, most recipes call for black or brown pigment.=A0 Yellow would=
 have
been possible though not nearly as bright as the items you mention.=A0=
 Yellow
Ochre --- maybe.=20

I have recipes that call for "rubberizing/waterproofing" many materials
including canvas, cotton, linen, hemp and leather; many call for caoutchouc.

I am not presently aware of a source for pure natural India rubber.

Do any of the Lewis & Clark researchers out there have any specifics as to=
 the
rubber goods they carried?=A0 Unless I'm remembering wrong they had a rubber
boat.=A0 If so, has anyone found out how it was built?=A0=20

Rubber goods would have been expensive.=A0 It would be heavy to transport or=
 to
carry.=A0 I doubt it was widely used.=A0 Oilcloth would be lighter and=
 cheaper and
I suspect not much more common.=A0 Why uncommon?=A0 Because there aren't=
 many
references.=A0 Allan's Fort Hall find is significant I doubt they saved=
 samples
or recorded much detail.=A0 Damn.

John...


At 08:00 PM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Alan,
>
>As usual, your information is invaluable and knowledge abounds.=A0=20
>However, I fear that certain generalizations may prove misleading to the
>novice amongst us. The fact that "vulcanized'" cloth/rubber garments
>existed within the fur trade period doesn't mean that yellow crossing
>guard rain coats=A0 and goulashes are acceptable at various events
>replicating fur trade activity.=A0 My point is that a more definitive
>response on that subject matter is earnestly needed, ie. what sort of
>fabric was rubberized?=A0 What kind of "rubber" was used?=A0 Where did it
>come from?=A0 What colour was the eventual product?
>Was it sold as premade garments and/or sold as bulk
>sheeting?..........and so on.=A0 What was "India rubber"?
>
>I've seen what is sold by Panther and seriously wonder if this is a true
>replication of a period product.=A0 I tend to think that vulcanization in
>its infancy probable consisted of a gum type rubber, ill refined and a
>bit bulky.=A0 Could be totally wrong.
>
>Any further incites on the particulars of this subject?
>
>John Funk
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
<http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:53:32 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole

Of course were interested, have the dear Mrs look up those notes!

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:51:03 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear

> But
> there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have
> been there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about their underwear.

Lots of women were involved in the fur trade. Some were mixed-blood, some
were Native; a very few were white. All of them would have likely objected
to you asking them questions about their undergarments. And you'd better not
ask me about _my_ underwear when I'm at rendezvous!

Seriously, there's not a whole lot of information on European women's
undergarments in this period, but the Cunnington book mentioned earlier on
this thread gives a good summary of what is known. Because there isn't a
whole lot of info, opinion falls into two main schools : some folks believe
most women didn't wear drawers/pantelettes, because so few survive, and
there is very little mention of them in period writings; others say that can
be explained by the fact that writing about one's underwear was improper,
and underwear was usually discarded or recycled when it was worn out, unlike
other exterior clothing.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:07:36 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

in my 2nd year of growing gourds, here in sunny (and dry) So. Cal.  Last year,
I was able to let them air dry on a shelf.  This year, I thought I would hang
one.  Foolishly, I hung it by the neck, which bruised, softened and rotted in
short order.  The rest, I am  drying on the shelves.

Another peculiarity this year, was a black mildew/fungus that appeared on some
of the gourds.  I believe this is due to El Nino, with all of the extra
moisture in our poorly drained (but, south facing plot).  On the bright side,
I believe the mildew/fungus is going to create a verty dramatic effect on one
long-necked, large bottle gourd.  We'll see....  Also, I'm going to
carve/incise a couple of them green, this year.

Pappy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 16:36:15 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

>Another peculiarity this year, was a black mildew/fungus that appeared on some
>of the gourds.  I believe this is due to El Nino, with all of the extra
>moisture in our poorly drained (but, south facing plot).  On the bright side,
>I believe the mildew/fungus is going to create a very dramatic effect on one
>long-necked, large bottle gourd.

That fungus can come off if you choose.  Just soak the gourd for a while in
water, getting it good and wet all over, and scrub the outer skin membrane
with a soft brush.  Toothbrush works well.  Scrubbing removes the outer
membrane where the fungus has grown.  The fungus usually grows only on the
surface and leaves only a shadow of itself beneath.

>We'll see....  Also, I'm going to
>carve/incise a couple of them green, this year.

That should be interesting.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 18:22:29 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

In a message dated 11/3/98 2:13:40 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Foolishly, I hung it by the neck, which bruised, softened and rotted in
short order.  The rest, I am  drying on the shelves.
>>

Hmm.... Pappy, I have mine hung by the stem (vine), you reckon this would
work? I also live in cloudy (read wet) Battle Ground, WA. and have them in the
unheated garage. Should I move them into the house? Gourds are kinda hard to
come by around here. Thanks for the tips Henry.....
Steve

------------------------------

Date: 03 Nov 98 17:11:45 -0600
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos

The vulcanization process was patented in1831, if I remember correctly.  =
Several rubber buttons were found in the dig at Bent's Fort and shown to =
be from the Mountain Man era.  Don Keas


John Kramer wrote:
>John,
>
>Maybe I can help a bit.
>
>India rubber is natural rubber also known as caoutchouc.=A0 There are =
modern
>perversions of the term used to describe other materials; that was not =
the
>case
>during our period of interest.
>
>Before processing it is a light cream or dark amber color.=A0 It is the =
latex
>(milky juice) of rubber trees.=A0 It was first polymerized by drying and
>coagulation.
>
>I don't have the exact date reference at hand for the first vulcanization =
of
>rubber by Goodyear.=A0 As I remember it would, AT BEST, have been pretty
>uncommon
>before 1840.=A0 =
>Vulcanization only improved strength, flexibility and durability - it =
also
>allowed for very hard rubber which could be cast into combs and such; the
>natural rubber was used in much the same ways prior to 1840.=A0 Not =
nearly so
>broadly to so many purposes.
>
>Rubberized cotton canvas of modern manufacture would probably be as close =
as
>anyone could get commercially today.=A0 It wouldn't be much different =
than what
>was made before 1840.=A0 More common today, I would suspect, would be a
>synthetic
>rubber which should offer no functional difference.=A0 Perhaps better =
wearing
>qualities.
>
>I have encountered references to "rubber sheeting" to date I have not
>determined if it referred to rubberized cloth or thin sheets of natural
>rubber;
>or both.=A0 I have not had any rubber I was certain was not vulcanized to
>determine if would have the strength for use in pure sheets to be =
practical. =
>Then again I haven't spent a lot of time researching rubber and rubber =
goods. =
>I am unaware of existing examples and suspect it all rotted away.
>
>Unless used with great care waterproof goods will condense lots of water =
where
>you may not want it.=A0 Often more than if you used untreated canvas.=A0 =
I would
>suspect the most common use for rubberized cloth or oil treated canvas =
would
>have been for protecting goods from weather - where condensation would =
not
>be a
>problem.=A0 For example for bundling goods sealed in a cache.  Or packing
>foodstuffs on a mule.
>
>I have not encountered exact reference to colors finished goods may have =
been
>traded in, most recipes call for black or brown pigment.=A0 Yellow would =
have
>been possible though not nearly as bright as the items you mention.=A0 =
Yellow
>Ochre --- maybe. =
>
>I have recipes that call for "rubberizing/waterproofing" many materials
>including canvas, cotton, linen, hemp and leather; many call for =
caoutchouc.
>
>I am not presently aware of a source for pure natural India rubber.
>
>Do any of the Lewis & Clark researchers out there have any specifics as =
to the
>rubber goods they carried?=A0 Unless I'm remembering wrong they had a =
rubber
>boat.=A0 If so, has anyone found out how it was built?=A0 =
>
>Rubber goods would have been expensive.=A0 It would be heavy to transport =
or to
>carry.=A0 I doubt it was widely used.=A0 Oilcloth would be lighter and =
cheaper and
>I suspect not much more common.=A0 Why uncommon?=A0 Because there aren't =
many
>references.=A0 Allan's Fort Hall find is significant I doubt they saved =
samples
>or recorded much detail.=A0 Damn.
>
>John...
>
>
>At 08:00 PM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>Alan,
>>
>>As usual, your information is invaluable and knowledge abounds.=A0 =
>>However, I fear that certain generalizations may prove misleading to the
>>novice amongst us. The fact that "vulcanized'" cloth/rubber garments
>>existed within the fur trade period doesn't mean that yellow crossing
>>guard rain coats=A0 and goulashes are acceptable at various events
>>replicating fur trade activity.=A0 My point is that a more definitive
>>response on that subject matter is earnestly needed, ie. what sort of
>>fabric was rubberized?=A0 What kind of "rubber" was used?=A0 Where did =
it
>>come from?=A0 What colour was the eventual product?
>>Was it sold as premade garments and/or sold as bulk
>>sheeting?..........and so on.=A0 What was "India rubber"?
>>
>>I've seen what is sold by Panther and seriously wonder if this is a true
>>replication of a period product.=A0 I tend to think that vulcanization =
in
>>its infancy probable consisted of a gum type rubber, ill refined and a
>>bit bulky.=A0 Could be totally wrong.
>>
>>Any further incites on the particulars of this subject?
>>
>>John Funk
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
><http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>> =
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <[e-mail]> =
>
>
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 13:11:56 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:rubber ponchos

Washtahay-
At 03:58 AM 11/3/98 -0600, (John, you really should sleep sometime) you=
 wrote:

>snip<
>Rubberized cotton canvas of modern manufacture would probably be as close=
 as
>anyone could get commercially today.=A0 It wouldn't be much different than=
 what
>was made before 1840.=A0 More common today, I would suspect, would be a
>synthetic
>rubber which should offer no functional difference.=A0 Perhaps better=
 wearing
>qualities.
    Back in amongst the many myriad misspent days of my youth (probably 10
years ago) I had a job at a plant that manufactured rubber products to spec
for various purposes.  We had a lot of rubber, chemicals, etc, and I
probably spent too many hours playing... =20
    Anyhow, a cotton weave fabric treated with natural latex isn't really very
durable.  The fabric seems to tear more readily.  (Some of the latex we
received was smoked to preserve it, if anyone runs across it, it isn't
necessarily treated with sulphur or vulcanized in any way.  I was told this
was done to reduce problems with spoilage.)  Also, the latex treated fabric
was rather "tacky"-not as much as a new tack cloth, more like the one I
usually forget on the benchtop for a week or two.  =20
>
I have not had any rubber I was certain was not vulcanized to
>determine if would have the strength for use in pure sheets to be=
 practical.
    The pure latex I had access to was very susceptible to punctures (and
tears at the edges) when in an unsupported (no fabric) sheet.  If
unvulcanized latex was used in this manner, I suspect it may have been
placed on or between pieces of canvas.
    All in all, they were fun experiments to run, but the possible health risk
would make me suggest using extreme caution if you try to experiment along
these lines.=20

>I have not encountered exact reference to colors finished goods may have=
 been
>traded in, most recipes call for black or brown pigment.=A0
    It is fairly simple to amalgamate carbon black into the raw latex.  It is
doable with the technology of the 18th century-but I don't know if it was
done. =20

> Yellow would have
>been possible though not nearly as bright as the items you mention.=A0=
 Yellow
>Ochre --- maybe.=20
    If ground to a fine powder, it works.  Looked more like dried
mustard-nothing at all like a fishskin.
>
>I am not presently aware of a source for pure natural India rubber.
    Given my above caution, if anyone is really interested I can try to point
you in the right direction.
>
LongWalker c. du B. (and itinerant alchemist)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:56:40 -0500
From: David Card <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear

Of course, journals are one of our best sources of information, =

but we need to keep them in context.  How they compare to other
sources, etc.  If someone's journal mentions calico underwear, =

that's great info - but all it really says is that particular
person used calico, or at most that some men used it.  We can't =

say that all mountain men used it.  Still good info, but only =

as far as it goes.  There are many references to flannel drawers =

too, but that doesn't mean calico wasn't used by some, especially =

in warmer areas.  Calico is only a type of cotton fabric - not =

just an "underwear" fabric, so I don't know about the guy arrested =

in a calico shirt.  The big question is - did he have anything =

else on?
- -David-



>   Terrel DeWald a brother from Amarillo once told me that the =

> mountain man wore calico as underwear. He said he got the info
> from an original journal he read somewhere. Anyway he said he
> also read an account of a feller getting arrested in a town for =

> being on the streets in a calico shirt, arrested for indecent
> exposure?
>
> Snakeshot

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 19:47:03 -0800
From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole

Carpenter's wrote:
>
He told me that the fortification breastwork,
> from the battle, still existed when he was a kid, growing up in that area.
> I'll have my wife try and find these notes, if any one is interested.  She may
> know where they are.

Hey, we are all interested.    DN

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:05:43 -0500
From: David Card <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax

I suppose it's not all that important, depending on your intended use.  =

As you say, for food-related uses, my biggest use is candles, and I =

think they would burn better without stray legs and bee butts sparking
and sputtering.  I use a lot (with tallow) for waterproofing, and it
goes on smoother without always having to pick the afore mentioned =

legs and butts out...  personal preference I guess. =

- -David-



> From: [e-mail]
>
> What's so important about getting the bee parts out, except for maybe l=
ining a
> beverage container?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 18:50:48 -0800
From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos

My thanks to John, Phyllis, Don and Jim for the interesting treatise on
"vulcanization" of cotton cloth with natural rubber.
Would it be fair to  assume that if one were to show up at some doing
with a cotton/canvas cloth which had been "rubberized" he would be period
correct?  To elaborate, if one were to take pillow ticking or #12 canvas
and treat/coat it with a "natural rubber" product (ie. say dried Contact
Cement or a clear type rubber product used to coat some tools)
would/could he be shot on sight?  Of course the main question is, how
common were such items in the Rocky Mountains during the Fur Trade
period and is it fair to also assume that the typical trapper had such an
item. Or, were such items used for the packing of goods west for trade by
pack trains?  The more I think about it I tend such items were rather
scarce.

Any further thoughts????????

John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:33:56 -0600
From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:rubber ponchos

Rubber facts from the Collier's 1998 Encyclopedia:

Joseph Priestley, the discoverer of oxygen, coined the word "rubber" because
it could be used to erase pencil marks.  "India rubber" was not from India,
but from the the West Indies, which Columbus thought was India.

Thomas Hancock established the first English rubber factory in 1820.  In
1823 Charles Macintosh of Scotland patented a process in which benzene was
used to dissolve rubber to apply it to fabric.  The rubber was then covered
with another layer of fabric.

In 1833 the Roxbury India Rubber firm in Roxbury, Mass was the first
American firm to produce waterproof cloth and shoes.  The rubber was badly
affected by temperature extremes.

In January 1839, Charles Goodyear discovered the vulcanization process in
Woburn, Massachussets.


From Funk and Wagnalls New Encyclopedia, 1979:

In 1791 Samuel Peal of England patented a method of waterproofing cloth by
applying rubber disolved in turpentine.

In the United States rubber products became popular by the 1830's, and
bottles and shoes made by South American Indians were imported in large
quantities.

The rubber oducts produced by the Roxbury India Rubber firm and were brittle
in cold weather and tacky and stinky in warm weather.

In 1834, German chemist Ludersdorf and American chemist Hayward discovered
that sulfur made the rubber goods lessened the tackiness.

YMHAOS
Iron Burner

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 22:03:52 -0800
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson

Gail please fill us in about your visit to taos when you get back.  I grew up
there and haven't been back in about 12 years.  I used to play in the park
near kit carson's house.  Also eat as much New mexican cuisine as you can, you
will not regret it.  Michaels kitchen was a good joint to eat at. but avoid
the Sagebrush inn unless the owners have changed in the last year or so.
Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant
Sega

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 22:52:01 -0800
From: Jeff Volberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos

Hello the camp,

Francis Parkman mentions wearing an "india-rubber cloak" and his party
sleeping on "india-rubber cloths" during an 1846 prairie thunderstorm on
the Oregon Trail.

California Pilgrim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 02:36:42 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

   >Another peculiarity this year, was a black mildew/fungus that
   >appeared on some of the gourds.  I believe this is due to El Nino,
   >with all of the extra moisture in our poorly drained (but, south
   >facing plot).  On the bright side, I believe the mildew/fungus is
   >going to create a verty dramatic effect on one long-necked, large
   >bottle gourd.  We'll see....  Also, I'm going to carve/incise a
   >couple of them green, this year.
   >Pappy
Pappy,here in Wisconsin I've had the mildew/fungus happen often. does'nt
seem to hurt and sometimes stays on the gourd. Don't know bout El Nino but
the humidity level is higher here than S.Cal.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 02:11:28 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

I had a great idea once...I was going to grow gourds, make canteens, and
get RICH...ha ha...  My first crop failed, the vines grew well and
flowered, then the fungis rot set in... I tried again the next
year...same result!  Talking to a local farmer, I found that what I
suspected was true.....Living on the coast (as I do) subjects the large
leafed vines to dew nearly every night, hence the rot.  13 miles south,
on the inland side of the coastal range, is an ideal climate for gourd
growing.... but, alas I live on the western side and can not grow gourds.
  Next idea...?     still poor, Hardtack

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:45:09 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

Check with your local garden store for a fungicide which if applied early may
combat the fungus.  Don't know about your area but here in humid So. Ohio that
works.

Red Hawk

MIA3Wolves

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 08:37:31 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

>Pappy,here in Wisconsin I've had the mildew/fungus happen often. does'nt
>seem to hurt and sometimes stays on the gourd. Don't know bout El Nino but
>the humidity level is higher here than S.Cal.
>Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>


I personally like the dry climate here, which is why I moved away from
Wisconsin 8 years ago.  This year we had the opposite problem.  Drought.  I
watered my gourds a lot because of lack of rain.  That's not too good
either, because they can get too much chlorine.  We finally got rain toward
the end of summer, so I was able to cut back on using city water.  Rain
water works wonders because it doesn't have the chlorine and it carries
nutrients from ground evaporation that the plants need.  I also didn't
fertilize like I hadbefore.  I wanted toi see what would happen.  I still
had a decent crop, but it could have been much better.

HBC


*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:54:32 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

didn't susspect fungus would be such a hot topic...

I had anticipated the problems w/  dew, and fungus, since we have difficulty
growing zukes w/o fungus rotting them before they ripen.  We live in the San
Fernando valley,
which although is lee of the southern spur of the santa monica mtns (aka
Hollywood hills),  we are more accurately on the windward side of the southern
end of the coastal range.  Thus, moisture from marine layer comes over the
Hollywood Hills, and settles in the valley at night, held there by the San
Gabriels (nee Seirra Madres), Santa Susannas and the nocturnal onshore winds.

Fungicide has not helped the zukes,  and I reluctantly have used it sparingly
on the gourds, to good effect.  I believe the problem began, when we composted
over the last couple of el nino winters; using the same small plot for
composting and planting. This, I believe caused the fungus to begin in the
ground, before we planted.

I dry mine in the house on a shelf, turning them every so often.  works fine.

thanks for all input & response

pappy

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #166
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