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hist_text-digest       Monday, November 2 1998       Volume 01 : Number 165




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 16:57:21 -0500
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos

Ho the list,


To try to answer a number of questions that have been posted in the last day
or so:

The Mystic Seaport museum is located in Mystic, Connecticut. They have a web
site but I don't know what its address is. A search will locate it.

Gutta percha is the sap of the gutta-percha tree (isonadra gutta) which is
native to Indonesia. It is a milky white substance very much like latex
which comes from the rubber tree (hevea brasiliensis),  native to Brazil but
grown widely in Southeast Asia in plantations. In the eighteenth and
nineteenth centuries, both gutta percha and latex from rubber trees were
used for the same purposes, often related to maritime or naval stores
(sailcloth, waterproofing, etc.). There is little to distinguish between
products in which gutta percha was used from those in which rubber latex was
used and both products were widely in use by the 1700s. The reason we hear
more about rubber and less about gutta percha is that the hevea (rubber)
tree was more adaptable to plantation growth and became the primary supplier
of latex by 1800.

Oakum is, as has been noted, hemp. Normally it is produced by pulling apart
rope made from hemp (as opposed to ropes made from flax). If the rope is
untreated (not tarred), the resulting substance is referred to as "white
oakum". "Regular" oakum is darker-colored, tarry, because it comes from
treated or tarred ropes.

I have seen brass grommets in use on late 18th century sails and sailcloth.
I assume, therefore, that they were used in tarps in the 19th century as
well.

There are many interesting connections beween the products of the maritime
trade (fishing, whaling, merchant marine) and those of the Rocky Mountain
fur trade era.

John L. Allen

- -----Original Message-----
From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, October 31, 1998 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos


>John C Funk wrote:
>>
>
>>  What was "India rubber"?
>
> Narcissa says, "Our table is the ground, our tablecloth is an Indian
>rubber cloth used when it rains as a cloak."  This is in a letter
>written June 4th, 1836 on the Platte and which I got from "Rocky
>Mountain Rendezous" by Fred Gowans.  Some place she also mentions
>gutta-percha cloth.  My 1911 Websters Dictionary says gutta-percha is "a
>reddish-brown horn-like substance; the inspissated juice of the
>gutta-percha tree (Isonandra gutta) of the Malay Archipelago."  I looked
>up inspissated, which is,  "To thicken by boiling or evaporation."
> Is this what we would call a rubber tree?  Is gutta-percha cloth and
>Indian rubber cloth the same thing? or is it two different types of
>water proof cloth?  They also had oil cloth which is canvass treated
>with linseed oil? except when I was a kid -- born 100 years after 1836,
>at least my family called oil cloth a rubber coated cloth that was
>spread on the ground when we went on a picnic?
> John Kramer was did a post on grommets.  Canvass was used for the
>engines of ships before Christ was born.  Sail makers whip stiched
>grommets in sails for centuries, and I'd bet that when metal grommets
>were first used some sailor was trying to figure a way to make a sail
>last longer.  I'd also bet that the first use of India rubber cloth was
>at sea, and perhaps a good place to start research on this type of thing
>would be the Mystic Seaport museum in New England.  Sorry, I don't
>remember the state or town where it's located, but someone out there
>should know.
> One last thing on grommets.  I met a guy that located a site of a ferry
>and store that was pre civil war/gold rush era.  This doesn't prove a
>thing, but it's something to think about.  I amongst the artifacts that
>he found using his metal detector was a pattern of brass grommets that
>suggested that a canvass tarp had laid on the ground and rotted away.
>Somebody could have camped there years later, and left the tarp, but
>it's something to think about.
> DN
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:05:21 -0800
From: Gene Knutti <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole

I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:11:25 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum"

Hola, one and all!  I seem  to recollect that oakum is a hemp product; used in
caulking decks on ships, etc.   Also, used to this day by farriers, who will
pack the space between the sole of the hoof and the pad that is sometimes
installed for elevation, animation or medication.  Also, pads are often used
for wintertravel, to prevent snow and ice to fill, and become impacted in the
sole of hoof.  Which in turn, keeps yer pony from walkin on oversized
snowballs/icecubes.  Mostly used to prevent debris from collecting between pad
and sole of hoof.

Anyway, centaur forge carries oakum, if ye care to call'um.  great catalog,
including books and videos on many skills, including tinsmithing.

                            adios-  Pappy



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:38:55 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick

Howz about geo-thermal acitvity?  Sound exotic?  maybe.  But I have a couple
of experiences on this one, so gather round...  if'n ye can stomach the
details:

1)  I was in Hawaii once, visited many volcanoes, lava tubes, etc.  On the
very crumbly edge of Mauna Loa, I stood peerin into the swirlin grey vapours
and black pit of the womb of creation isself!  Many awesome things come out of
that Mother of the Big Isle-  amonst which is heat (natch..), but also toxic
fumes (or `bad spirits', `noxious vapours, if 'n you prefer).  Not long ago, a
couple of prominent volcanologist died of this.  It's not constant, you see,
but intermittent; and unpredictable.  Anyhoo, the description of the symptoms
brought the memory back to me from 30yrs back.  I can attest to those
symptoms; I nearly lost conciousness on the very edge of Mauna Loa.

2)  I live in southern California;  on the entire western edge of the great
basin is a LOT of geo thermal action.  Many, many hostsprings from southern,
all the way into
far northern california.  Nevada too.  Earthquakes, & geo thermal action go
hand&hand out here.  King's beach in Lake Tahoe just had a temblor a coupla
days ago.  That's at 6,547' or there abouts.  Point:  Great Basin has plenty
of action, that way.  Where was fitzpatrick, when this happened?

Lastly, Bein' 5th generation so. californian, earthquakes don't seem so
strange...
just try to shake, rattle an' roll w/ it.  but the following  from the '94
quake got my attention:  'bout 20 minutes after, spectatin' on all the damage:
broken gas lines, water mains,  4th story apt.s turned into patios.  I look in
the still night sky to the south, and see a huge blue-bright flash an'
methinks a power plant has gone in a blaze of glory.  But, nothing in the news
on it for days.  Turns out it was `earthquake lightning':  excess energy
expelled from the crust, in the form of a F  L  A  S  H.

anyhoo, somethings to ponder....  pappy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 21:34:55 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick

Steve,

That story was reported by William Marshall Anderson on August 9, 1834.  He
was retelling something that Fitzpatrick told him.  The information you read
in Leroy Hafen's "Broken Hand," (Old West Publishing, Denver, 1973 pg. 81), is
from Anderson's diary, written while on the trail.  Anderson also made two re-
writes of his diary, one referred to as a narrative and one referred to as a
journal.  The journal covers his entire trip while the narrative covers only a
portion of the trip.

The journal entry for the same date reads "When Mr. Fitzpatrick was encamped
at the forks of the Wind River he experienced a simoom (sic) or something
similar - On 20th June the sun became red, the atmosphere was substantialised
and bore a dull, hazy appearance, and the heat was so intense that his eyes
felt as if they would have melted out of their sockets - Where the gusty wind
touched the unprotected skin it crisped or blistered - His lungs
notwithstanding the hot air circulated, laboured as tho he were gasping in an
empty receiver." ("Rocky Mountain Jounrals of William Marshall Anderson: The
West in 1834," Dale Morgan and Eleanor T. Harris, Huntington Library, San
Marino, CA, 1967. pg. 176 -77)

WORLDBOOK encyclopedia describes a "simoom" as a hot, dry wind that blows in
desert regions carrying great clouds of sand and dust.  It rises suddenly and
people or animals may suffer from heat stroke when they are exposed to one.
Simooms may pass in ten minutes or last for days.  Simooms are caused by the
overheating of the soil and the layers of air nest to it.

David Jackson had sent Fitzpatrick, presumably by himself, to find William
Sublette in order to direct Sublette to a meeting with Jackson farther west.
This hot wind storm cropped up near where the Wind meets the Bighorn.  While
not exactly desert, this is a fairly flat, dry region.  My opinion (for what
it may be worth) is that Fitzpatrick experienced a localized wind storm
similar to the funnel-cloud-like "dust devils" frequently seen in flat open
areas and he embelished the tale a bit for his greenhorn audience.  This would
also explain why no one else (that I've seen) has recorded any general
atmospheric disturbances for that date.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1671
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 19:23:33 -0800
From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos

I am certainly not impugning any ones product, merely interested in
original, historically accurate, fur trade related items.

John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 00:54:09 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:gutta-percha

Believe it or not, golf balls were made of gutta-percha as early as 1845.
Reverend Robert A. Patterson made the first one from a lump of brown, hand-
rolled gutta-percha and by 1848, these were rapidly replacing the golf balls
stuffed with feathers.  Gutta-percha is the coagulated juice or latex of
various Malaysian trees. (From Malay getah = gum + percha = the tree producing
it)  Gutta-percha was also used as a dental filling and to insulate early
telegraph wires in the 19th century. By 1852, the gum was sometimes simply
called "gutta."  (Flexner, Stuart B., "Listening to America; an Illustrated
History of Wods and Phrases From Our Lively and Splendid Past." Simon &
Schister, NY  1982. pg. 264)

Jim Hardee, AMM #1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:32:20 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos

I don't know what a mangas is but we used to keep rubber gaskets and boots
plyable by using glycerin on them.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:36:51 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax

What's so important about getting the bee parts out, except for maybe lining a
beverage container?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 16:09:28 -0800
From: Gene Knutti <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole

I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene

Did some more checking with Bonneville's account of the battle I was wrong
they proceeded to the southwest towards the pass which crosses over to
Jackson Hole

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 21:27:29 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cap to Flint conversion

Addison Miller wrote:
>
> As y'all may remember, I was tryin to convert a Traditions Hawken to a
> flinter.... Traditions said it couldn't be done, but I done did it... heh!!
> Shoots great and sparks nice too... Hey.. Traditions...
> ppppppffffffffttttttttt...... :))  NEVER tell me something can't be done...
> cause this ol' Navy Chief will prove you wrong...
>
> Thanks List Members for all the help and advise y'all sent me... really came
> in handy, and thanks THUNDER RIDGE MUZZLE LOADING for the parts...

Bob's a good man, but don't like to tell him that very often though.<g>

Fred

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 18:49:00 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole

Gene,

Somthing is wrong here because Jacksons Hole is to the east of Pierres' Hole.
Look at a map to be sure. I remain a bit confused too....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Gene Knutti wrote:

> I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
> right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
> have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
> I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
> highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
> information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene
>
> Did some more checking with Bonneville's account of the battle I was wrong
> they proceeded to the southwest towards the pass which crosses over to
> Jackson Hole

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 23:40:08 -0500
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick

Ho the list,

Clarification in the posting below:

There is no place "where the Wind meets the Bighorn." In one of the
strangest geographic naming conventions ever, the Wind River, after passing
through the Wind River Canyon, simply becomes the Big Horn River. There is
no junction with another stream--the name of the river simply changes. This
"wedding of the waters" is just south of Thermopolis, WY. The Big Horn was
seen from the north and named by William Clark (1806) following a French
name probably attached to the stream in the 1790s. John Colter and George
Drouillard (c. 1809) were on the Big Horn and referred to it by that name.
The Wind River was named by Wilson Price Hunt (1810) who used its valley to
cross Union Pass during the westbound Astorian's trek. It wasn't until the
early 1830s that it became generally known that the two were the same river
(although I'll bet the early mountain men knew--even if the mapmakers
didn't). Rather than rename the whole stream, the decision was made
(essentially by the mountain men) to call the river the Big Horn below the
canyon, and the Wind River above.

The "forks of the Wind" that Anderson refers to is probably the junction of
the Popo Agie and Little Wind River with the Wind River, south of the town
site of Riverton, WY.

I would agree that the phenomenon was probably a localized "dust devil",
very common in this area of intense convectional heating in the summer
months. I've been caught in them on horseback and the feeling is not unlike
that related by Fitzpatrick.

John Allen

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick


>Steve,
>
>That story was reported by William Marshall Anderson on August 9, 1834.  He
>was retelling something that Fitzpatrick told him.  The information you
read
>in Leroy Hafen's "Broken Hand," (Old West Publishing, Denver, 1973 pg. 81),
is
>from Anderson's diary, written while on the trail.  Anderson also made two
re-
>writes of his diary, one referred to as a narrative and one referred to as
a
>journal.  The journal covers his entire trip while the narrative covers
only a
>portion of the trip.
>
>The journal entry for the same date reads "When Mr. Fitzpatrick was
encamped
>at the forks of the Wind River he experienced a simoom (sic) or something
>similar - On 20th June the sun became red, the atmosphere was
substantialised
>and bore a dull, hazy appearance, and the heat was so intense that his eyes
>felt as if they would have melted out of their sockets - Where the gusty
wind
>touched the unprotected skin it crisped or blistered - His lungs
>notwithstanding the hot air circulated, laboured as tho he were gasping in
an
>empty receiver." ("Rocky Mountain Jounrals of William Marshall Anderson:
The
>West in 1834," Dale Morgan and Eleanor T. Harris, Huntington Library, San
>Marino, CA, 1967. pg. 176 -77)
>
>WORLDBOOK encyclopedia describes a "simoom" as a hot, dry wind that blows
in
>desert regions carrying great clouds of sand and dust.  It rises suddenly
and
>people or animals may suffer from heat stroke when they are exposed to one.
>Simooms may pass in ten minutes or last for days.  Simooms are caused by
the
>overheating of the soil and the layers of air nest to it.
>
>David Jackson had sent Fitzpatrick, presumably by himself, to find William
>Sublette in order to direct Sublette to a meeting with Jackson farther
west.
>This hot wind storm cropped up near where the Wind meets the Bighorn.
While
>not exactly desert, this is a fairly flat, dry region.  My opinion (for
what
>it may be worth) is that Fitzpatrick experienced a localized wind storm
>similar to the funnel-cloud-like "dust devils" frequently seen in flat open
>areas and he embelished the tale a bit for his greenhorn audience.  This
would
>also explain why no one else (that I've seen) has recorded any general
>atmospheric disturbances for that date.
>
>Jim Hardee, AMM#1671
>P.O. Box 1228
>Quincy, CA  95971
>[phone] (H)
>[phone] (W)
>[phone] FAX
>[e-mail]
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 22:10:25 -0800
From: Gene Knutti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole

Capt Lahti
That is what I get for not reading close enough, it mentioned that they left
with the intention of heading to the southwest, but instead proceeded 8
miles to the southeast before stopping for the night, which would put them
toward the way over Teton pass.  Sorry about the confusion.
Gene



At 06:49 PM 11/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Gene,
>
>Somthing is wrong here because Jacksons Hole is to the east of Pierres' Hole.
>Look at a map to be sure. I remain a bit confused too....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Gene Knutti wrote:
>
>> I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
>> right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
>> have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
>> I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
>> highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
>> information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene
>>
>> Did some more checking with Bonneville's account of the battle I was wrong
>> they proceeded to the southwest towards the pass which crosses over to
>> Jackson Hole
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 23:37:34 -0700
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole

Gene,

At 05:05 PM 10/31/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
>right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
>have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
>I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
>highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
>information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene
>
Warren Ferris' journal puts the fight in the south end of the valley along
the Teton River.  I drove by there this summer and the area follows the
general description of the fight and distance from the rendezvous.

I've got a paper beating around here someplace that details it.  Get ahold
of me privately and I'll try and get it for you.

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 02:37:19 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fur recipes

In a message dated 98-10-28 23:25:52 EST, you write:

<< Unfortunately I don't know how to turn them into furs. There are leather
 tanning skills here, but not fur ones. Does anyone have a basic recipe
 that will not require any fancy chemicals that I won't be able to get
 here? >>

The brain tan method should work -- just don't use ashes on the hide to
loosten the hair.  If memory serves, McPhereson's book "Brain Tan Buckskin"
covers the "hair on" method as well as "hair off".  Just requires a bit more
work to get the brain solution to fully penetrate from only one side.  With
rabbit skins, it shouldn't be too much problem because they're relatively thin
when compared to deer or elk hides.

NM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 05:15:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax

The "Bee Parts" can spoil, thus making everything taste bad.



- [e-mail] wrote:
>
> What's so important about getting the bee parts out, except for
maybe lining a
> beverage container?
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:40:00 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear

Interested in your coments on underwear.  There are detailed discriptions of
male underwear even in the Bible, so no dout the males had underwear.  But
there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have been
there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about our, their underwear.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 09:23:03 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: john funk--rubber questions

John:
You must have mistaken me for an encyclopeadia or
something.  I don't have the answers to the
questions you last posed about the details of
early 19th century manufacture of rubber goods.
This is just like much of the stuff I come up
with, in that any individual item could result in
hours of research, and if you have a list of maybe
100 such items, life just gets too short.
I can't think of anything I've said that would
endorse wearing yellow rubber raincoats in a pre
1840 setting, but if I did then everybody
disregard it.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:06:00 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear

I have read articles when the Buckskin Report (John Baird - fur trade) was
still available, along with articles by Charles E.Hanson, Jr.(Museum of the
Fur Trade - fur trade), Vernon L. Bigsby (Valley Forge Museum - pre Rev.
War) and one from Colorado Historical Society (1849'ers and into the Civil
War), will have to look for exact information and get back to you. But all
of the articles mentioned were about period male under garments.

As I remember their were no one piece "union" suits as seen at outing today,
the pre Rev War garments were like night shirts split front and back to slid
down the breeches, the fur trade depending on early or late were: night
shirt style - early being split or solid (solid being shirt tail pulled
between legs to the front and front being tucked to the rear) seems to be a
good load in the seat of one's pants? The late garments were straight leg
bloomer style with a long tailed shirt - no collar.

Hanson felt that they, (the under garment) may have lasted the first winter
and were used for repair of other garments afterwards. He felt that this was
an item found not that serviceable in the field, as you would need to almost
get undressed if nature called, not like the "union" suit found a decade or
two later with its back and front access.

I'm sure others will have additional information from their research and I
will look for those articles, have a 4 drawer file cabinet with information
collected for 40 years.

Buck

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear


>Interested in your coments on underwear.  There are detailed discriptions
of
>male underwear even in the Bible, so no dout the males had underwear.  But
>there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have
been
>there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about our, their
underwear.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:39:51 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Gourds

Ho the list,
Have been following the lines on growing and preparing gourds. I missed how to
dry out the gourds before sealing with wax. I've heard you have to drill a
couple holes in the bottom to let the moisture out and prevent the gourd from
rotting. Would just cutting off a couple inches of the neck work? And if I
must punch holes in it, does it matter where?
Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:00:42 -0500
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Gourds

Don't punch any holes. Just hang them up in a cool, dry place and let nature
do its thing. I have found that if you hang them in the fall, they are ready
to work on in the spring (this is in PA).  Then I cut the top off and use a
piece of wire to loosen the seeds. After I get most of them out, I throw in
some pebbles and shake it to loosen the rest. When the inside is clean, I
steel wool the outside to bring out the pattern and give it a coat of
shellac. Then I seal the inside with melted paraffin. My last step is to sew
a piece of wet rawhide around the neck to give me something to attach a
thong to. Add a cork and your done.
Kirk Mill


    Have been following the lines on growing and preparing gourds. I
missed how to
    dry out the gourds before sealing with wax. I've heard you have to
drill a
    couple holes in the bottom to let the moisture out and prevent the
gourd from
    rotting. Would just cutting off a couple inches of the neck work?
And if I
    must punch holes in it, does it matter where?
    Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:01:42 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear

In a message dated 11/2/98 10:12:47 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<

Hanson felt that they, (the under garment) may have lasted the first winter

and were used for repair of other garments afterwards. He felt that this was

an item found not that serviceable in the field,>>

Haaa... I had a buddy that was a guide in Alaska and you could almost tell how
long he had been in the woods by how much of his undershirt was left. Seems
whenever "nature called" he'd be out of paper and rather than using leaves and
tundra, he'd just cut off a piece of his shirt!  Hell... I can remember him
coming back to town with just his collar left......

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:33:24 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

What timing!!  I just harvested this year's crop of gourds yesterday.  I
usually wait till the first freeze, but we've had too much wet weather
lately, and this is the time the vines should be drying in preparation for
harvesting.  Too much moisture this late could be bad for them.  (I lost a
few of them in the last couple of weeks)

The key is keep them dry and allow air circulation.  I use a couple of mesh
laundry bags and hang them up in my shed.  That gives them good circulation
and keeps the dogs and critters away.  In our climate (West Texas) it won't
take very long to dry them, maybe a month or two, depending on how dry we
are.  If you have some that broke or softened on the vine, you can still
salvage the seeds.

Cheers,
HBC

>Ho the list,
>Have been following the lines on growing and preparing gourds. I missed how to
>dry out the gourds before sealing with wax. I've heard you have to drill a
>couple holes in the bottom to let the moisture out and prevent the gourd from
>rotting. Would just cutting off a couple inches of the neck work? And if I
>must punch holes in it, does it matter where?
>Steve

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:57:29 -0500
From: "Matt Despain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole

Dear Gene:

Yes the general area of the battle was near the area where Teton Pass
enters into the old Pierre's Hole. The exact sight is not known.  You can't
trust Washington Irving's account fully since we don't know what he added
or left out of Bonneville's original manuscript.  But there are indications
that it occured near a marshy zone, which if you look on todays USGS maps
is up the canyon a ways and which corresponds to the historic path that
existed north of the modern highway there (you can see this natural defile
on the USGSmap too).  I have heared rumor of an archeological dig to be
done up there, perhaps much the same as was done at the Little Bighorn
Battlefield in the 1980s.  Until then we just don'd know for certain.

Matt Despain
University of Oklahoma

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 17:14:56 -0600
From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear

Barry Conner wrote:
>
> I have read articles when the Buckskin Report (John Baird - fur trade) was
> still available, along with articles by Charles E.Hanson, Jr.(Museum of the
> Fur Trade - fur trade), Vernon L. Bigsby (Valley Forge Museum - pre Rev.
> War) and one from Colorado Historical Society (1849'ers and into the Civil
> War), will have to look for exact information and get back to you. But all
> of the articles mentioned were about period male under garments.
>
> As I remember their were no one piece "union" suits as seen at outing today,
> the pre Rev War garments were like night shirts split front and back to slid
> down the breeches, the fur trade depending on early or late were: night
> shirt style - early being split or solid (solid being shirt tail pulled
> between legs to the front and front being tucked to the rear) seems to be a
> good load in the seat of one's pants? The late garments were straight leg
> bloomer style with a long tailed shirt - no collar.
>
> Hanson felt that they, (the under garment) may have lasted the first winter
> and were used for repair of other garments afterwards. He felt that this was
> an item found not that serviceable in the field, as you would need to almost
> get undressed if nature called, not like the "union" suit found a decade or
> two later with its back and front access.
>
> I'm sure others will have additional information from their research and I
> will look for those articles, have a 4 drawer file cabinet with information
> collected for 40 years.
>
> Buck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 7:46 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
>
> >Interested in your coments on underwear.  There are detailed discriptions
> of
> >male underwear even in the Bible, so no dout the males had underwear.  But
> >there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have
> been
> >there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about our, their
> underwear.
> >
> >
   Terrel DeWald a brother from Amarillo once told me that the
mountain man wore calico as underwear. He said he got the info
from an original journal he read somewhere. Anyway he said he
also read an account of a feller getting arrested in a town for
being on the streets in a calico shirt, arrested for indecent
exposure?

Snakeshot

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:43:39 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds

any of the gourds that I have used were sun dried, with no holes.
Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:56:49 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear

Snakeshot,

I think I read something like that years ago, maybe in Buckskin Report and
wondered if this person had someone or even himself make an under garment
from disgarded flour sacks, that was a common source of useable material.
Have seen slips, bloomers and the pockets worn under a women's skirt made of
this material on the east coast in several museums, (Amish,  Quakers, as
well as the Movains were some of the groups that had early clothing shown).

Funny side note to calico linings;
Picked up a Ute wedding dress 20 years ago down in the Four Corners area,
made about 1860 according to old lady selling it, had several look at bead
work and it looked right. My daughter loved it and wore it to the next
rendezvous up at Chadron, she got really upset that a white powder was
coming out of the lining on the inside of the dress. Charles E. Hanson, Jr.
really got a kick out of it, wedding dresses often used the calico flour
sacks for a lining (unwashed so the flour would make the wearer white and
show she was pure).

Interesting to think what would be said if that town saw a modern rendezvous
????

Buck
_______________________________
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear


>Barry Conner wrote:
>>
>> I have read articles when the Buckskin Report (John Baird - fur trade)
was
>> still available, along with articles by Charles E.Hanson, Jr.(Museum of
the
>> Fur Trade - fur trade), Vernon L. Bigsby (Valley Forge Museum - pre Rev.
>> War) and one from Colorado Historical Society (1849'ers and into the
Civil
>> War), will have to look for exact information and get back to you. But
all
>> of the articles mentioned were about period male under garments.
>>
>> As I remember their were no one piece "union" suits as seen at outing
today,
>> the pre Rev War garments were like night shirts split front and back to
slid
>> down the breeches, the fur trade depending on early or late were: night
>> shirt style - early being split or solid (solid being shirt tail pulled
>> between legs to the front and front being tucked to the rear) seems to be
a
>> good load in the seat of one's pants? The late garments were straight leg
>> bloomer style with a long tailed shirt - no collar.
>>
>> Hanson felt that they, (the under garment) may have lasted the first
winter
>> and were used for repair of other garments afterwards. He felt that this
was
>> an item found not that serviceable in the field, as you would need to
almost
>> get undressed if nature called, not like the "union" suit found a decade
or
>> two later with its back and front access.
>>
>> I'm sure others will have additional information from their research and
I
>> will look for those articles, have a 4 drawer file cabinet with
information
>> collected for 40 years.
>>
>> Buck
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 7:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
>>
>> >Interested in your coments on underwear.  There are detailed
discriptions
>> of
>> >male underwear even in the Bible, so no dout the males had underwear.
But
>> >there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have
>> been
>> >there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about our, their
>> underwear.
>> >
>> >
>   Terrel DeWald a brother from Amarillo once told me that the
>mountain man wore calico as underwear. He said he got the info
>from an original journal he read somewhere. Anyway he said he
>also read an account of a feller getting arrested in a town for
>being on the streets in a calico shirt, arrested for indecent
>exposure?
>
>Snakeshot
>
>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #165
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