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hist_text-digest       Sunday, November 1 1998       Volume 01 : Number 164




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:28:47 -0800
From: "Munroe Crutchley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: New member

I am a new subscriber to the list and am also very interested in the fur
trade era. I haven't gotten into buckskinning yet, but I can feel the bug
starting to bite.

I work as an inspector for Public Works in the county where I live, and I
work part time as a math tutor at the local community college.

I was a muzzleloader over 20 years ago back east, I live in Oregon now and
am getting back into the sport. I spent the past year building a rifle
(Hawken replica) from scratch. I was surprised by how much I remembered
from my youth about building rifles! I learned it all from Ron Griffie in
Maryland; some of you may have heard of him. Anyway, the Hawken turned out
just the way I had hoped and shoots fine (now, if I can meet up with an
elk...).

I'd like to toss out a question: When I think about those boys whose life
depended on their rifle going off whenever they pulled the trigger, I
wonder how long they would carry a load in the barrel. It seems like with
dampness and all they would want to empty her out every now and then just
so they could put in a fresh load. I reckon we could all speculate about
this (please do), but does anyone know of any old writings that discussed
such things?


Munroe Crutchley
Grants Pass, OR
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:41:06 -0800
From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule

I kinda would like to know the same thing.   In the washington, oregon, idaho area.


>>> "Ron" <[e-mail]> 10/28 9:41 PM >>>
Let us know what state you are in and someone will post a website or
suggestions for that states info.

YMOS
Lonewolf

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule
> Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 11:48 PM
>
> It has been a few years since my husband and myself have been to a
Rendevous.
> We would like to know if you still keep a schedule of them.  If so please
e-
> mail at your convinence.
> Thanking you in advance.
> Ladygirl98
>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !
!


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:40:32 -0500
From: David Card <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum"

Question for John or anyone else...  I read somewhere that oakum is a lef=
tover =

from making hemp fabric - like tow is to linen.  Is this the same stuff?



> The old recipes and instructions I've seen call for using wads & swabs =
made of
> "oakum" -- it should still be available from a plumbing supply house --=
 if not
> try marine suppliers to wooden boat builders.
>
> John...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:53:10 -0500
From: David Card <[e-mail]>
Subject: re:  MtMan-List: Bees wax

For future reference, I've gotten beeswax from James Townsend, one of my =

favorite sources of "stuff".  It's $7 a pound - I don't know if that's =

good or bad.  If I was to get some cheap or free from a bee keeper, I'd
go for it.  I'd melt it, and strain it through cheese cloth to get out =

the bee parts &c.
- -David-

p.s.  oh yeah...
      [e-mail]
      1-800-338-1665
      www.jastown.com   (cool site - I think their whole catalog is here
                         plus stuff that's not in the catalog)    =



> I about to get some bees wax from a bee keeper. I've looked everywhere =
and this is all I could find. =

> He says its in a bucket. How do I clean this?
> I'm going to use it on some restoration and to make patch lube. Thanks =
for all suggestions.
>  BrokenJaw =

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:50:15 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos

Allen,

Is it kosher to use my Civil War period rubber poncho with its grommets for
1830s-40s fur trade era, or do grommets come in a bit later?  Is there any
good information on how rubber ponchos were made during the rendezvous
period, specifically, how the headhole was cut and configured?

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:02:40 -0800
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

Just got old foxes second message and in reply, Althought the value of learning
to debreach etc. is valuable, I am more interested in the basics of gunsmithing.
I thought going the do it yourself route on making the smoothbore might be fun
but, I think that another better route would be to finish a kit, using quality
parts and working up from a blank stock, lock and barrel to a finished gun. I
ain't duckin out on the learnin, but using books and, My present custom gun as an
example, and the help of friends who know more, I believe I'll have a better
experience . A kit, I think, is a good learnin tool.  Any thoughts?

Your most disobediant and onry' hivernant.
Sega

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:17:10 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum"

Traditionally oakum was made by picking the fibers apart in old ropes.
When it
wasn't much good as a rope any more it was made into oakum.  So it was hemp.=
=20
What you get at a plumbing or marine supplier today may be entirely=
 different.

John...



At 08:40 AM 10/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Question for John or anyone else...=A0 I read somewhere that oakum is a
leftover

>from making hemp fabric - like tow is to linen.=A0 Is this the same stuff?
>
>
>
>> The old recipes and instructions I've seen call for using wads & swabs=
 made
of
>> "oakum" -- it should still be available from a plumbing supply house --=
 if
not
>> try marine suppliers to wooden boat builders.
>>
>> John...
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:19:11 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Henry Crawford:  Ponchos

Henry:
Like I said in the other message, I do not have
any information on whether rubber ponchos existed
much before the Civil War, or if they did, how
they were configured.  Don't recall info on when
the Army started using them.
I do know, like I said before, that rubberized
fabric was being produced at least in England in
the early 1820s and was being manufactured into
garments--ie rain coats--by Mr. MacIntosh, which
is why the Brits still call raincoats "Macs."
So, a rubberized fabric poncho for a pre-1840
setting is something that was possible, but I
can't prove or disprove it, much less tell you
what it would look like.  Sorry.  For what its
worth, which may not be much, I don't use one.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:06:49 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum"

David,
Interesting question. It is my 'belief' that whatever oakum is made of, it is the
original product versus a by-product. It  may very well be the same material as
tow,( i.e. hemp), only treated with extra materials to make it suitable for another
purpose,  whether that be to dam the flow of plumbers lead or caulk the seams
between ship planking. I mean to try it when tinning a copper pot but have not had
time to find a suitable quantity. The steel wool that I have used in the past works
but it picks up quit a bit of the tinning agent which is thus lost or hard to
recover. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

David Card wrote:

> Question for John or anyone else...  I read somewhere that oakum is a leftover
> from making hemp fabric - like tow is to linen.  Is this the same stuff?
>
> > The old recipes and instructions I've seen call for using wads & swabs made of
> > "oakum" -- it should still be available from a plumbing supply house -- if not
> > try marine suppliers to wooden boat builders.
> >
> > John...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:27:24 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum"

from the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary

oa*kum (noun)

[Middle English okum, from Old English acumba tow, from a- (separative &
perfective prefix) + -cumba (akin to Old English camb comb) -- more at ABIDE]

First appeared 15th Century

 : loosely twisted hemp or jute fiber impregnated with tar or a tar derivative
and used in caulking seams and packing joints

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:44:15 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber manga's

Henry,

I have no information about the appropriateness of a poncho, I do have some=
 on
grommets.  Plain rubberized tarps may have been available. =20

If I remember right Jeff Hengesbaugh was the first to bring mangas up from
Mexico for the buckskin trade back in the seventies.  They didn't have ties=
 or
grommets.  To cut a T shape head hole in the middle of a small tarp seems=
 like
something someone would have done.  Ties could be easily added to the=
 corners
and edges.

The two piece stamped grommets we are familiar with today are not=
 appropriate.

Grommets were not unknown during the period but would be a simple wood,
bone or
metal ring tightly whip-stitched onto the canvas (lashed like a buttonhole
stitch around the entire ring).

I don't research later period but would be very suspicious of modern=
 grommets
being correct for Civil War.

John...




At 09:00 AM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote:
>What's a rubber manga?
>
>HBC
>
>>I have two rubber manga's. What is the history of these, when were they
>>available? Were they at any rendevous? My is starting to dry out, can any
>>type of repair work for this. I am considering using rubber latex to paint
>>over the cracks.
>>Thanks in advance
>>Joe
>>
>>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>>Write for custom tanning prices
>>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>>hair on robes
>>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings,=
 baskets
>>check out our new web site:
<http://www.onpages.com/absaroka>http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Curator of History
>[e-mail]=A0=A0=A0=A0 Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Box 43191
>FAX [phone]=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Lubbock, TX=A0 79409-3191
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 WEBSITE:
<http://www.ttu.edu/~museum>http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******=A0 Living History . . . Because it's there!=A0 *******
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:02:24 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum"

At 08:06 AM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>David,
...
 The steel wool that I have used in the past works
>but it picks up quit a bit of the tinning agent which is thus lost or hard=
 to
>recover. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>

If Oakum is used as the wiper it should be fairly easy to recover any excess
tin held in the fibers by burning off the hemp under high heat.  Separating
iron from tin when used with steel wool would be much more difficult.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:52:18 -0600
From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

danny caywood just came out with a beautiful cannon barrel flint pistol
give him a call he can furnish it in kit form---beautiful example of the
time period and very good lock---

=+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684     e-mail:   [e-mail]

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:02:40 -0800 Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Just got old foxes second message and in reply, Althought the value of
>learning
>to debreach etc. is valuable, I am more interested in the basics of
>gunsmithing.
>I thought going the do it yourself route on making the smoothbore
>might be fun
>but, I think that another better route would be to finish a kit, using
>quality
>parts and working up from a blank stock, lock and barrel to a finished
>gun. I
>ain't duckin out on the learnin, but using books and, My present
>custom gun as an
>example, and the help of friends who know more, I believe I'll have a
>better
>experience . A kit, I think, is a good learnin tool.  Any thoughts?
>
>Your most disobediant and onry' hivernant.
>Sega
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:45:40 -0600
From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

you made some darn good points---concure with the learning curves but i
guess i try to always look at the quality and end product that i build
and if you start with poor quality you will normally end with poor
quality---a person will take more pains with something that he has spent
hard earned bucks on---and he knows it is of good quality----
=+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684     e-mail:   [e-mail]

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:32:43 EST [e-mail] writes:
>In a message dated 98-10-29 10:41:15 EST, you write:
>
>> you gave him a lot of good info--and concure it can be done---think
>you
>>  should sit back and look----try the common sense approach--- at
>just
>>  getting a new barrel made by a barrel make
>
>Hawk,
>I agree that buying a new barrel might be cheaper, but how's a young
>man going
>to acquire any skills of the trade by taking the easy way out.
>
>Look at all the things involved in making that little 5" barrel from a
>disposable part that is no loss if he screws up.  He has only hand
>tools to
>work with and the experience in tool control in invaluable. He'll
>learn:
>1. How to debreach an old barrel.
>2.  How to drill a straight hole in a tube.
>3.  How to polish the inside of a bore.
>4.  How to make his own touch-hole liner.
>5.  Some hand filing techniques
>6.  Probably other stuff too.
>
>Even if he screws it up, the experience is probably worth more than
>the $40 he
>might pay for a new barrel.
>
>OldFox
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:56:57 -0600
From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

rifle or pistol quality is 85% and the shooters ability is the other 15%
if the gun cant shoot as well as the holder it dont make a bit of
difference---IF A GUN BARREL WILL ONLY HOLD 6 INCHES THEN THE SHOOTER
CANT MAKE IT SHOOT ANY TIGHTER-----you are going to mis your
mark---ENOUGH SAID----QUALITY IS QUALITY AND JUNK IS JUNK----

=+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684     e-mail:   [e-mail]

On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:00:59 -0800 (PST) Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
writes:
>
>I totally agree with you, we own 2 CVA rifles and 1 pistol. I can
>shoot as well with these as I can with the Custom Built Rifle I owned
>years ago, which had a Douglas Barrel.  It ain't how much you can pour
>into yore gun (money wise), but how well you can shoot that makes the
>difference.
>
>
>
>---"Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> Since I started this discussion, I'd better jump in here.  I must
>have been
>> darn lucky.  I've been shooting my CVA mountain rifle for 11 years
>with no
>> problems.  Even took a deer with it.
>>
>> I must beg to differ with my colleagues on CVA quality.  The two CVA
>guns I
>> have are not junk.  I am sorry to offend, but both turned out to be
>good
>> shooters.  Maybe my standards are not as high, or I just have a way
>with
>> "inferior" guns.  It's like taking a stray dog and turning him into
>a
>> champion.  All it takes is work.
>>
>> As for the pistol, I took it apart, cleaned and oiled everything,
>check all
>> parts for signs of fatigue (always do that when you buy a used
>firearm) and
>> took it out for a trial shoot over the weekend.  I used a low charge
>of 15
>> grains of 2F without a bullet to test ignition a couple of times,
>then the
>> same thing with 25 grains.  Next I cleaned it out and used 25 grains
>with a
>> patched ball, and again it worked fine.  I fired two more times with
>> patched balls and no problems.  Then I took it completely apart and
>checked
>> all parts again.
>>
>> I wasn't target shooting, per se.  I was firing at a small
>prickly-pear
>> cactus and hit it twice.  It performed ok.  Just think what I can do
>after
>> I set the sights and practice.  We all know that pistols don't
>generally
>> hit much beyond 30-40 feet, so I wasn't looking for this one to
>perform
>> great first time out.
>>
>> The moral is treat your guns right and they'll treat you right.
>Anyone can
>> shoot well with a superior rifle, but the person that can take a
>mediocre
>> firearm and work with it to make it perform well, is no slouch
>either.  If
>> it works for you, that's all that matters.  And CVA guns (so far)
>work for
>> me.
>>
>> BTW, among my fur trade era guns I have a Navy Arms flinter, which
>also
>> shoots well.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> HBC
>>
>> *****************************************
>> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
>> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:00:32 -0800
From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos

Alan,

As usual, your information is invaluable and knowledge abounds.
However, I fear that certain generalizations may prove misleading to the
novice amongst us. The fact that "vulcanized'" cloth/rubber garments
existed within the fur trade period doesn't mean that yellow crossing
guard rain coats  and goulashes are acceptable at various events
replicating fur trade activity.  My point is that a more definitive
response on that subject matter is earnestly needed, ie. what sort of
fabric was rubberized?  What kind of "rubber" was used?  Where did it
come from?  What colour was the eventual product?
Was it sold as premade garments and/or sold as bulk
sheeting?..........and so on.  What was "India rubber"?

I've seen what is sold by Panther and seriously wonder if this is a true
replication of a period product.  I tend to think that vulcanization in
its infancy probable consisted of a gum type rubber, ill refined and a
bit bulky.  Could be totally wrong.

Any further incites on the particulars of this subject?

John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:14:01 -0700
From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule

Hello Corey,
Look at  Lee Newbill's page

 Buckskins and Blackpowder
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

YMOS,
Lonewolf

- ----------
> From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule
> Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 12:41 AM
>
> I kinda would like to know the same thing.   In the washington, oregon,
idaho area.


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:00:31 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos

John,

Sam at Panther is a salesman, like many of us in the trade, he provides a
good product for the money, but on many of his items he tries to produce =
an
item as close as possible - at a fair price.

The problem is to make that item exactly like an original sometimes drive=
s
the cost up so high that only a few will spend the money for it. So is th=
e
case with many of the items available today to the various time frames, n=
ot
everyone can afford a real birch bark canoe but can make over a modern on=
e
to look close.

Many of the suppliers are using the Eastern manufacturers from India and
East Asia to produce tin, copper, iron, etc. items in an attempt to keep
costs down and retail sales up. Look at the wide spread on knives, from a
few dollars for one of an eastern country to many many dollars for a cust=
om
knife made in the USA.

For correct period items we have to pay more and you may want to check wi=
th
some of the high dollar dealers that deal in correctness like:

C & D Jarnagin, Co.
P.O. Box 1860
Corinth, MS 38834
< http://www.jamagininco.com >

G. Gedney Godwin, Inc.
PO Box 100
Valley Forge, PA 19481
Ph [phone]
< http://gggodwin.com/ >

Have done business with these gentlemen for years and if they don't have =
a
correct rubber poncho for your time frame, they'll know who does.

Good Luck,

Buck Conner
dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
< http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ >
"Uno qui=E9n negocia"  Spanish   =93Unqui commerce=94  French  "One who t=
rades"
English


_______________________________________
- -----Original Message-----
From: John C Funk <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 10:07 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos


>Alan,
>
>As usual, your information is invaluable and knowledge abounds.
>However, I fear that certain generalizations may prove misleading to the
>novice amongst us. The fact that "vulcanized'" cloth/rubber garments
>existed within the fur trade period doesn't mean that yellow crossing
>guard rain coats  and goulashes are acceptable at various events
>replicating fur trade activity.  My point is that a more definitive
>response on that subject matter is earnestly needed, ie. what sort of
>fabric was rubberized?  What kind of "rubber" was used?  Where did it
>come from?  What colour was the eventual product?
>Was it sold as premade garments and/or sold as bulk
>sheeting?..........and so on.  What was "India rubber"?
>
>I've seen what is sold by Panther and seriously wonder if this is a true
>replication of a period product.  I tend to think that vulcanization in
>its infancy probable consisted of a gum type rubber, ill refined and a
>bit bulky.  Could be totally wrong.
>
>Any further incites on the particulars of this subject?
>
>John Funk
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 08:52:46 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum"

John,
My point exactly. I have burned off the steel wool and knocked out most of the
tinning agent but the oakum may work much better. When I can get some I will try
it. BTW, Tom and I were trying to tin a copper pot he had made of .011 thick
copper. I had trouble getting the tin to 'take' on the initial try so Tom cleaned
the pot out a bit and re fluxed. I put the thing back on my propane stove and
proceeded to burn a big hole in the bottom. The other pots I've made were of .022
thickness and did not give that problem. Consider this a warning to those playing
around with this craft. Do not use really thin copper or brass lest you loose the
vessel to the goddess Pele!

John Kramer wrote:

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 08:03:16 -0800
From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos

John C Funk wrote:
>

>  What was "India rubber"?

    Narcissa says, "Our table is the ground, our tablecloth is an Indian
rubber cloth used when it rains as a cloak."  This is in a letter
written June 4th, 1836 on the Platte and which I got from "Rocky
Mountain Rendezous" by Fred Gowans.  Some place she also mentions
gutta-percha cloth.  My 1911 Websters Dictionary says gutta-percha is "a
reddish-brown horn-like substance; the inspissated juice of the
gutta-percha tree (Isonandra gutta) of the Malay Archipelago."  I looked
up inspissated, which is,  "To thicken by boiling or evaporation."
    Is this what we would call a rubber tree?  Is gutta-percha cloth and
Indian rubber cloth the same thing? or is it two different types of
water proof cloth?  They also had oil cloth which is canvass treated
with linseed oil? except when I was a kid -- born 100 years after 1836,
at least my family called oil cloth a rubber coated cloth that was
spread on the ground when we went on a picnic?
    John Kramer was did a post on grommets.  Canvass was used for the
engines of ships before Christ was born.  Sail makers whip stiched
grommets in sails for centuries, and I'd bet that when metal grommets
were first used some sailor was trying to figure a way to make a sail
last longer.  I'd also bet that the first use of India rubber cloth was
at sea, and perhaps a good place to start research on this type of thing
would be the Mystic Seaport museum in New England.  Sorry, I don't
remember the state or town where it's located, but someone out there
should know.
    One last thing on grommets.  I met a guy that located a site of a ferry
and store that was pre civil war/gold rush era.  This doesn't prove a
thing, but it's something to think about.  I amongst the artifacts that
he found using his metal detector was a pattern of brass grommets that
suggested that a canvass tarp had laid on the ground and rotted away.
Somebody could have camped there years later, and left the tarp, but
it's something to think about.
                DN

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 21:33:17 -0800
From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule

>> From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule
>> Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 12:41 AM
>>
>> I kinda would like to know the same thing.   In the washington, oregon,
>idaho area.
>
>

Corey,
Here is another source.
http://eddie.grrtech.com/rendezvous/calendar/


"Pockets"
A.K.A.
Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]

  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
  General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 00:22:58 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos

Joe,

If you have access to back issues of "Overland Journal," the magazine of the
Oregon-California Trail Association, Vol. 14, Num. 1, Spring 1996, has an
article titlted "India Rubber Kept Them Dry," by Jacqueline Williams.  While
its focus is primarily the Oregon Trail, it provides good info on pre-Civil
War uses of India rubber.  Its bibliography includes a book by Ralph F. Wolf,
"India Rubber Man; The Story of Charles Goodyear," published by Caxton
Printers in Caldwell, ID, in 1939.  That may be another source for you.

The article states there was a "veritable rubber boom" in the US during the
1830s.  Of course it was only the beginnings of real research and
experimentatin to make rubber useable.  Vulcanization wasn't discovered unitil
1839 so it was after that when most uses were developed.  Articles such as
coats, ponchos, capes, leggins, water pails, mittens, maps, balls, Haversacks,
pants, caps, syringes, suspenders, water tanks, saddle bags, blankets, shoes,
horse covers, mattress covers, teething rings, and elastics are all mentioned.
There is a good photo of an India rubber rain coat recovered in 1968 from the
cargo of the steamboat "Bertrand," which sank April 1, 1865, on its way to
Fort Benton in Montana territory.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

If you can't find the article, let me know, I'd be happy to mail you a photo
copy.  Back issues are available from OCTA at P.O. Box 1019, Independence, MO
64051-0519.  [phone].

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 14:21:57 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cap to Flint conversion

As y'all may remember, I was tryin to convert a Traditions Hawken to a
flinter.... Traditions said it couldn't be done, but I done did it... heh!!
Shoots great and sparks nice too... Hey.. Traditions...
ppppppffffffffttttttttt...... :))  NEVER tell me something can't be done...
cause this ol' Navy Chief will prove you wrong...

Thanks List Members for all the help and advise y'all sent me... really came
in handy, and thanks THUNDER RIDGE MUZZLE LOADING for the parts...

SeanBear
aka Addison Miller
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216 (Ronnyvous)

Addison Miller

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #164
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