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hist_text-digest       Friday, October 30 1998       Volume 01 : Number 163




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:01:45 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear

The book NaugaMok refers to is "The History of Underclothes" by C. Willett and
Phillis Cunnington, Dover Publications, Inc, New York, 1992.  It is really
quite an interesting history.  Indeed the "union suit" was available in the
1890's, well after the fur trade period.  In England, they were called
"combinations."  Allen Chronisters description of underwear for the
mountaineer is well described in this book, complete with pictures.  It is
written mostly from a British prospective, but still relates what was in
fashion in Europe during throughout history.

Also, on the topic of long underwear, in "Partridge's Concise Dictionary of
Slang and Unconventional English," by Eric Partridge, abbridged with new
material in the Macmillan Publishing edition of 1984, "John L.s" were long
underpants after the old boxing gear worn by John L. Sullivan.  Sullivan was a
boxer in the late 1880s, the height of his career being 1882-92.  Long johns
derived their name from this.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
PO. Box1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:48:02 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule

It has been a few years since my husband and myself have been to a Rendevous.
We would like to know if you still keep a schedule of them.  If so please e-
mail at your convinence.
Thanking you in advance.
Ladygirl98

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:44:22 +0530
From: Colin Pringle <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fur recipes

Dear All

I live in Kathmandu, and have access to a lot of rabbit skins.
Unfortunately I don't know how to turn them into furs. There are leather
tanning skills here, but not fur ones. Does anyone have a basic recipe
that will not require any fancy chemicals that I won't be able to get
here?

ps I am English, but I'll try to do the best I can.

Colin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:44:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CVA Products

In a message dated 10/26/98 11:37:46 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the original CVA products
were
 better than their later products, but even the early stuff doesn't come close
 to being called "quality." >>

   Well, my St. Louis Hawken by CVA was purchased in the early 90's.
Admittedly not the finest looking gun to be found, but not butt ugly
either.....this is the gun I earned my Rendezvous handle with after going to 3
shoots in a row and going 3 for 3 on the 125 yard, 10 inch gong at each. On
the 3rd hit at the 3rd vous, my buddy turned to me and said "God Damn Longshot
!!!"
   However it is a crapshoot buying the new ones as, as I understand it CVA
has about 7 different sources for their barrels and this is what will make or
break the shooting ability of the gun.......I got lucky.  Now my boy is
shooting that gun and doing some fine shooting to boot. If he gets any better
he'll be better then me and I will be forced to take it away from him and tell
him to go buy his own gun. Providing of course that it isn't loaded at the
time. Longshot ain't no fool!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:41:17 -0700
From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule

Let us know what state you are in and someone will post a website or
suggestions for that states info.

YMOS
Lonewolf

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule
> Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 11:48 PM
>
> It has been a few years since my husband and myself have been to a
Rendevous.
> We would like to know if you still keep a schedule of them.  If so please
e-
> mail at your convinence.
> Thanking you in advance.
> Ladygirl98
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:43:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 [e-mail] wrote:
> We would like to know if you still keep a schedule of them.  If so please e-
> mail at your convinence.

Ladygirl98

Check out Crazy Wolf's webpage at http://eddie.grrtech.com/rendezvous/

he's got a pretty good listing going, and a what appears to be a
comprehensive list of links to many other sites that also list rendezvous.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:02:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule

Hallo again.... It's Craig and Linda Kerr's page that has the
comprehensive listing.  This is one of the oldest Blackpowder webpages
around, and they keep a listing of a lot of the sites that keep track of
rendezvous.  You can find it at...

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2839/

Regards again

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Lee Newbill wrote:
> Check out Crazy Wolf's webpage at http://eddie.grrtech.com/rendezvous/
> he's got a pretty good listing going, and a what appears to be a
> comprehensive list of links to many other sites that also list rendezvous.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:22:31 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Lodding & McClenahan

Someone called Steve & Keith about a new Hawkin, & mentioned my name.  Somehow
their answering machine gunged the message & they didn't get the phone number
to return the call.  Steve gave me a call & wanted to know who had called, so
- -- if you called them & are expecting a return call, please call them again.
They'll be happy to serve you.

NM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:00:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

I totally agree with you, we own 2 CVA rifles and 1 pistol. I can
shoot as well with these as I can with the Custom Built Rifle I owned
years ago, which had a Douglas Barrel.  It ain't how much you can pour
into yore gun (money wise), but how well you can shoot that makes the
difference.



- ---"Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Since I started this discussion, I'd better jump in here.  I must
have been
> darn lucky.  I've been shooting my CVA mountain rifle for 11 years
with no
> problems.  Even took a deer with it.
>
> I must beg to differ with my colleagues on CVA quality.  The two CVA
guns I
> have are not junk.  I am sorry to offend, but both turned out to be
good
> shooters.  Maybe my standards are not as high, or I just have a way
with
> "inferior" guns.  It's like taking a stray dog and turning him into a
> champion.  All it takes is work.
>
> As for the pistol, I took it apart, cleaned and oiled everything,
check all
> parts for signs of fatigue (always do that when you buy a used
firearm) and
> took it out for a trial shoot over the weekend.  I used a low charge
of 15
> grains of 2F without a bullet to test ignition a couple of times,
then the
> same thing with 25 grains.  Next I cleaned it out and used 25 grains
with a
> patched ball, and again it worked fine.  I fired two more times with
> patched balls and no problems.  Then I took it completely apart and
checked
> all parts again.
>
> I wasn't target shooting, per se.  I was firing at a small
prickly-pear
> cactus and hit it twice.  It performed ok.  Just think what I can do
after
> I set the sights and practice.  We all know that pistols don't
generally
> hit much beyond 30-40 feet, so I wasn't looking for this one to
perform
> great first time out.
>
> The moral is treat your guns right and they'll treat you right.
Anyone can
> shoot well with a superior rifle, but the person that can take a
mediocre
> firearm and work with it to make it perform well, is no slouch
either.  If
> it works for you, that's all that matters.  And CVA guns (so far)
work for
> me.
>
> BTW, among my fur trade era guns I have a Navy Arms flinter, which
also
> shoots well.
>
> Cheers,
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:06:18 -0600
From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

old fox---
you gave him a lot of good info--and concure it can be done---think you
should sit back and look----try the common sense approach--- at just
getting a new barrel made by a barrel maker---rifled pistol barrels new
are less than 40.00 and they usually come with a breach---a smooth bore
barrel could be made on a lathe in less than a hr and would be true and
smooth on the inside---on the drilling what you will get is a lot of
cutting marks and its awful hard to get out and make them shoot
properly---by the time he does the stuff you was speaking of he will have
over half a day work in the barrel---I think a replacement barrel would
be a lot cheeper and easier in the long run---all he would have to do is
file the tang to fit the hole and drill a toutch hole for the flint
lock---contact me off line or give me a call and i will see what we can
do to get him a replacement barrel---he will have a hell of a time
getting the CVA breach plug out without adding heat---and you know my
feelings about adding heat to a rifle barrel---
=+=
hawk
michael pierce
854 glenfield dr.
palm harbor florida 34684     e-mail:   [e-mail]

On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:10:13 EST [e-mail] writes:
>Chris Sega writes:
>
>> It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I
>>  wish I still had that barrel.  Overall the quality of CVA guns is
>poor,
>>  but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good.  Not just
>>  tolerable, but VERY good.  If I had to take one part from a CVA gun
>it
>>  would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away.
>
>Chris,
>I didn't see anyone answer your original question, so I will give it a
>shot.
>People often stray from the topic at hand.
>
>Take that 5" CVA barrel and remove the breech.  The size of the
>breechplug
>will determine how much you can ream it out.  You cannot go larger
>than the
>threads of the breechplug, unless you want to rethread the breech and
>install
>a larger breechplug.
>
>There is a product on the market called a Unibit.  It is a tapered
>step drill
>with cutting edges every 1/16th of an inch, and it goes up to 1/2"
>You will
>also have to get a bit extension for it.  Since the bit is tapered, it
>is
>self-centering, and will progressively cut through the barrel.  It
>must be
>done on a drill press, to get the proper cutting pressure and control.
> Once
>you have run the bit through the barrel, you will have a smoothbore
>barrel of
>50 caliber.
>
>Now, you can either get a small brake cylinder hone, or a wooden dowel
>with
>sandpaper on it, and polish the inside of the bore.  VOILA.....you
>have a 5"
>smoothbore pistol barrel.  They ain't all that accurate anyhow, are
>they?
>
>For a little added effect, file and polish the top flats of the
>barrel, until
>you have a half round barrel, and file all the flats for the last inch
>of the
>front of the barrel.  With the proper nosecap, or inletting, you now
>have a
>faux round smoothbore barrel for your pistol.
>
>It's not a lot of work.  Also, if you can obtain a CVA flint lock, you
>can
>replace the percussion lock in your existing stock, and it only takes
>about a
>half hour.  Remove the percussion drum, and make a touch-hole liner
>from a 10
>X (?) metric bolt.  However, if you have a snail breech, then you
>cannot do
>this.
>
>It is a fun conversion and only takes a few hours, if you have the
>drill
>press.
>
>OldFox
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:16:32 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos

I'll inquire again, what information is there about rubber ponchos prior to
the civil war. I have two of the one's from Brazil that have unvulcanized
rubber painted on linen cloth. Alan, do you have any infor on this
Thanks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:43:08 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos

Joe asked about rubber ponchos.  Once upon a time
the conventional wisdom was that there were no
rubber goods,
especially clothing items, until goodyear invented
vulcanazation in the 1850s or whenever it was.
Reasearch has proved that wrong, and some of this
is disucssed in the piece on trapper clothing that
Clay and I did in BOB VII.
We can put rubber shoes, hats, coats, canteens and
ground cloths in the mountain/plains west before
1840.  Narcissa Whitman recorded that she ate
meals using her India rubber ground cloth for a
table.  The process of laminating rubber onto
fabric had been developed in England (by MacIntosh
of course) in the early 1820s, and by the late 20s
and into the 30s, a variety of rubber goods was
available in this country.  Ft Hall stocked India
rubber shoes in the 1830s.
I do not have any specific information about
ponchos per so.  There is debate over the use of
any ponchos north of the deep southwest.  A J
Miller may show one.
So that's what I know off the top of my head.  The
rubber coated fabric was clearly available pre
1840, but I can't say the same for making it into
a poncho.  Can't say it didn'thappen either.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:30:14 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos

I, too, have a mangas.  The only documentation of rubber cloth in the
Rockies that I have found is Narcissa Whittman's mention of using an
India rubber cloth as a tablecloth/raincoat.  This was 1836.  I'd like to
know of any other documentation.  Anyone know of any other mentions?
Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:32:43 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

In a message dated 98-10-29 10:41:15 EST, you write:

> you gave him a lot of good info--and concure it can be done---think you
>  should sit back and look----try the common sense approach--- at just
>  getting a new barrel made by a barrel make

Hawk,
I agree that buying a new barrel might be cheaper, but how's a young man going
to acquire any skills of the trade by taking the easy way out.

Look at all the things involved in making that little 5" barrel from a
disposable part that is no loss if he screws up.  He has only hand tools to
work with and the experience in tool control in invaluable. He'll learn:
1. How to debreach an old barrel.
2.  How to drill a straight hole in a tube.
3.  How to polish the inside of a bore.
4.  How to make his own touch-hole liner.
5.  Some hand filing techniques
6.  Probably other stuff too.

Even if he screws it up, the experience is probably worth more than the $40 he
might pay for a new barrel.

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:46:40 -0800
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

Hey!  Thanks for the info.  The reason I wanted to change to a smoother is to
have a 54 cal so I do not have to carry different roundball etc.  Changing a
rifled barrel to a smootbore seems on second thought to be a lot of work for
a gun that may not perform and after all is said and done might be more
costly than buyin a barrel.  Maybe I'll buy a kit.
Your most disobediant and onry' hivernant.
Sega


michael pierce wrote:

> old fox---
> you gave him a lot of good info--and concure it can be done---think you
> should sit back and look----try the common sense approach--- at just
> getting a new barrel made by a barrel maker---rifled pistol barrels new
> are less than 40.00 and they usually come with a breach---a smooth bore
> barrel could be made on a lathe in less than a hr and would be true and
> smooth on the inside---on the drilling what you will get is a lot of
> cutting marks and its awful hard to get out and make them shoot
> properly---by the time he does the stuff you was speaking of he will have
> over half a day work in the barrel---I think a replacement barrel would
> be a lot cheeper and easier in the long run---all he would have to do is
> file the tang to fit the hole and drill a toutch hole for the flint
> lock---contact me off line or give me a call and i will see what we can
> do to get him a replacement barrel---he will have a hell of a time
> getting the CVA breach plug out without adding heat---and you know my
> feelings about adding heat to a rifle barrel---
> =+=
> hawk
> michael pierce
> 854 glenfield dr.
> palm harbor florida 34684     e-mail:   [e-mail]
>
> On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:10:13 EST [e-mail] writes:
> >Chris Sega writes:
> >
> >> It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I
> >>  wish I still had that barrel.  Overall the quality of CVA guns is
> >poor,
> >>  but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good.  Not just
> >>  tolerable, but VERY good.  If I had to take one part from a CVA gun
> >it
> >>  would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away.
> >
> >Chris,
> >I didn't see anyone answer your original question, so I will give it a
> >shot.
> >People often stray from the topic at hand.
> >
> >Take that 5" CVA barrel and remove the breech.  The size of the
> >breechplug
> >will determine how much you can ream it out.  You cannot go larger
> >than the
> >threads of the breechplug, unless you want to rethread the breech and
> >install
> >a larger breechplug.
> >
> >There is a product on the market called a Unibit.  It is a tapered
> >step drill
> >with cutting edges every 1/16th of an inch, and it goes up to 1/2"
> >You will
> >also have to get a bit extension for it.  Since the bit is tapered, it
> >is
> >self-centering, and will progressively cut through the barrel.  It
> >must be
> >done on a drill press, to get the proper cutting pressure and control.
> > Once
> >you have run the bit through the barrel, you will have a smoothbore
> >barrel of
> >50 caliber.
> >
> >Now, you can either get a small brake cylinder hone, or a wooden dowel
> >with
> >sandpaper on it, and polish the inside of the bore.  VOILA.....you
> >have a 5"
> >smoothbore pistol barrel.  They ain't all that accurate anyhow, are
> >they?
> >
> >For a little added effect, file and polish the top flats of the
> >barrel, until
> >you have a half round barrel, and file all the flats for the last inch
> >of the
> >front of the barrel.  With the proper nosecap, or inletting, you now
> >have a
> >faux round smoothbore barrel for your pistol.
> >
> >It's not a lot of work.  Also, if you can obtain a CVA flint lock, you
> >can
> >replace the percussion lock in your existing stock, and it only takes
> >about a
> >half hour.  Remove the percussion drum, and make a touch-hole liner
> >from a 10
> >X (?) metric bolt.  However, if you have a snail breech, then you
> >cannot do
> >this.
> >
> >It is a fun conversion and only takes a few hours, if you have the
> >drill
> >press.
> >
> >OldFox
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:08:41 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick

Ho the list,
In Hafen's book "Broken Hand", page 81, Fitzpatrick mention an unusual
atmospheric disturbance on June 20, 1829.....   "all of a sudden the air
became of a dull smoky appearance so excessively heated that the skin seemed
to be blistered at its touch. He states that he believed that his eyes would
melt from his head." ....ah...., that was either some damn fine whiskey, or
maybe a near miss on an asteroid.... Anyone care to guess what that was all
about and did anyone else record the event? ...makes a Blackfeet attack seem
like a good day....
Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:49:04 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Reading Material

Ho the list,

Thanks for all the replies on the "must read" list! Most all the books
mentioned can be found at Amazon.com or interloc.com.... A few out of print,
and some rather spendy. Also look under "Fur Trade" search at Yahoo and bring
your check book. There is a life time worth of reading in there.....

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:38:33 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick

This event sounds a lot like the recordings of 'range fires'. Dont have my
resources at hand, but have read similar descriptions of the wild fires of the
time.  YHS,   ShootzHimself

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #163
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