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hist_text-digest       Tuesday, October 27 1998       Volume 01 : Number 162




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:37:51 -0700
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Makin a smooth bore

I Picked up a caplock  CVA Pistol for 15 bucks. The barrel is about 5
inches long, 45 Cal and it works just fine.  I would like to possibly
make it into a flintlock smoothbore in 54 cal. Its a cheap gun as I've
said and I think its a good gun for me to start fiddlin with because if
I screw up its no big loss.  Do I have enough metal to bore it out?  I
also don't have access to a lathe so I'm gonna have to find a way to
bore it out sorta cheap.  I can get the new lock and building a new
stock is no problem, so any ideas, warnings etc.  would be appreciated.

Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant.
Sega.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:35:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish

On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, David Tippets wrote:
> the West are facinating.  Let's probe a little deeper into the concept of
> Scottish mountain men.  The answer to MacRaith's original question can be a
> simple as some Scottish names, or more complex if you put those Scottsmen in
> the context of the political and corporate intrigue of their day.

Hallo Again

I have noticed in my readings, when I'm reading American accounts, the
nationality of the subject appears to be either "white man"  or typified
by race, whereas reading Canadian or British journals, they are very
careful to call folks by their orignal nationality.... Scott, Irish, etc,
and when they refer to Indians, almost invariably they refer to the
tribe... Kutenai, Piegan, what have you.  Even the 3rd or 4th
generation Frenchmen of Montreal were refered to as French, and not simply
Canadian.

I'm wondering if this is not due to the fact that by that time (1810 or
so), the U.S. was a proud young Nation, and the Canadas was still a
colony?

I still have a lot of reading to do, so maybe this is an abberation.

As for Astor, I always felt kinda bad about his losing Astoria for pennies
on the dollar during the war of 1812... then I found out he did the same
thing to his Nor-wester partners later when the American Congress outlawed
foriegn owned business a couple of years later (and they were both
partners in the Southwest(?) Company). He also warned the
Canadians about the impending war of 1812 so his business partners
(British) could seize the border fur depots and save his furs...

Not uncommon bedfellows, war and profit.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:02:50 -0400
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material

Steve,

To Matt Despain's fine list of good reading material, I would add as
recommended reading: Robert Utley, A LIFE WILD AND PERILOUS (a recent work
that provides details on the role of mountain men in opening the West to
other travelers, government explorers, etc.); Dale Morgan and Eleanor Harris
(eds.), THE ROCKY MOUNTAIN JOURNALS OF WILLIAM MARSHALL ANDERSON (1834
travels in the Rockies with fur trappers); anything else written by or
edited by Dale Morgan; Richard Mackie, TRADING BEYOND THE MOUNTAINS (a
recent work on the trader-explorers of the HBC in Canada and intermountain
American West); Rufus Sage, ROCKY MOUNTAIN LIFE (travels with fur trappers
in the Forties); David Coyner, THE LOST TRAPPERS (fascinating account of
probably-fictitious travels before Ashley). Get a catalog from University of
Nebraska Press; their Bison books reprints (paperback) are cheap and inlcude
many of the better primary sources (journals, etc.).

Happy reading.

John Logan Allen

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


- -----Original Message-----
From: S.M.Despain-1 <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material


>[e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> Ho the list.
>> I am planning, already, for a long wet winter here in the NW and would
like a
>> list of the top five "must read" books on Mountain Men and the Fur Trade.
I've
>> read Bridger, Osborne Russell, Bonneville, Playboy, Meek, and Parkman to
>> mention a few.... Will be interesting to see how the "top five" develops.
>> Steve
>>
>
>
>Steve:
>
>Books on the mountian men I would recomend.
>
> For short biography see LeRoy Hafen and Harvey L. Carter two books by
>Nebraska Press derived from Hafen's Mountian Man and the Fur Trade (10
>vols.). Also I did one with the Hafen series but focusing on the
>Southwest fur trade titled Fur Trappers and Traders of the Far Southwest
>by Utah State University Press.  Janet Lecompt has recently done one of
>this ilk on just French fur men in the Far West.
> Other works would be Fred Gowans, Rocky Mountain Rendezvous; David J.
>Weber, The Taos Trappers; Dale Morgan, Jedediah Smith and the Opening of
>the West is the best biography in my opinion; the next best would be
>Harvey L. Carter, Dear Old Kit. Stay away from anything Stanley Vestal
>wrote, too much fillagree.
>
>These are just off the top of my head, good reading.
>
>Matt Despain
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:07:36 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: ronnyvoo trade goods

"Hello the camp!"
Greetings to all, I've been reading all of the goings on for some months now,
but have never written myself. My dilemma is this:  I would like to have my
own trader's blanket at next year's local rendezvous.  I would like to sell
shirts, knit hats, etc., but I want them to be period correct of course.
Does anyone have any fabric swatches they would be wiiling to part with, or at
least some advice on what fabrics to use(or not to use)?  Much obliged, in
advance,  for any and all help.

YMHS,
Wade "Griz" Smith
P.S.
 If you have fasbric swatches, email me and I will give you my mailing
address.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 19:12:13 -0800
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

in reply to hawks statement. cheap junk is cheap junk and a good way to blow
your fool head off if you don't look what your doing. if you got a 10.00 head
get a 10.00 pistol.
                                                                         your
most disobedient

servant  iron tongue

michael pierce wrote:

> haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot  consistant---most of them the
> rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is
> the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with a
> douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and
> shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above
> statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles
> consistantly.  some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and
> a while---give me a hand cut rifleing  or a cut rifleing any time and i
> will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the
> early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or
> consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or
> better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them
> print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH
> SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT----
>
> Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel and
> all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion...
> =+=
> hawk
> michael pierce
> 854 glenfield dr.
> palm harbor florida 34684     e-mail:   [e-mail]
>
> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
> writes:
> >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote:
> >
> >>Friends,
> >>
> >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for
> >$75.00,
> >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol.  The lock
> >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my
> >old
> >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA).  The pistol was =
> >apparently
> >>made in Spain  and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with
> >the
> >>serial number 0040879.  It is not marked CVA anywhere.  Someone told
> >me
> >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain.  CVA firearms were very
> >good =
> >(my
> >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger
> >and
> >>all) and I assume they still are.
> >>
> >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain
> >and=
> > if
> >>they still do.  Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the
> >=
> >serial
> >>number?
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>HBC
> >>
> >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's,
> >1980-1 at latest.  I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart
> >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types.
> >Serial number is  35xxx.  I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift
> >back in '87.  Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all
> >made overseas.
> >
> >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just
> >to see how good it will still do.  I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and
> >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it.
> >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot
> >smaller than they did 20 years ago.  I could see them back then,
> >mostly.
> >
> >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something.
> >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started
> >using it on a friend's recommendation.  Great stuff.
> >
> >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including
> >=
> >"BS".
> >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 22:45:42 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ronnyvoo trade goods

 Heres some links to period correct fabrics, etc.
<A HREF="http://www.clearwaterhats.com/">ClearWater Hats</A>
<A HREF="http://www.patchworks-usa.com/">Patchworks-Historic Fabrics</A>
<A HREF="http://www.makingtime.com/">Making Time</A>
<A HREF="http://www.hemptraders.com/">Hemp Fabrics & Textiles</A>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:50:48 -0800
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

In reply to hawks most recent post.  My first gun was a CVA and it was
junk, except for the barrel.  It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I
wish I still had that barrel.  Overall the quality of CVA guns is poor,
but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good.  Not just
tolerable, but VERY good.  If I had to take one part from a CVA gun it
would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away.

Yor most disobediant and onry' hivernant
Sega

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:08:41 -0700
From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Charles Courtin - thanks

Thanks everyone for the references to Charles Courtin.  Mostly it
appears that little is known or at least researced about this critter.
I've placed all your responses in file for future research - right now I
have many more pressing, if not more important, things to attend to.
Should I find more when I have time to look I'll certainly post.
Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:24:43 -0500
From: "Carpenter's" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic

Hello the list:
has anyone seen reference to the availability of union suits (thermal
underwear) during the fur trade era?  Also, if they were available, what
about the elastic around the wrists ankles?  What about elastic, in
general?

Carp

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:01:15 -0600
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

michael pierce wrote:
>
> haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant

You'll probably will get plenty of rebuttals on that.  But I will say
that some CVA Kentucky pistols (mine included) were made with barrels
with rifle twists and not the faster twist customary for pistols. I
think they might have sawed the good lengths off of rejected rifle
barrels into pistol barrels.  I don't think it matters that much for off
hand shooting, which is what most 'skinners shoot.  Anyway because the
sights are so close together, that means that any missighting will be
multiplied by a couple hundred at the target.
I only have a dollar, so will you give me my 98 cents in change?

Iron Burner

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:34:03 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

Since I started this discussion, I'd better jump in here.  I must have been
darn lucky.  I've been shooting my CVA mountain rifle for 11 years with no
problems.  Even took a deer with it.

I must beg to differ with my colleagues on CVA quality.  The two CVA guns I
have are not junk.  I am sorry to offend, but both turned out to be good
shooters.  Maybe my standards are not as high, or I just have a way with
"inferior" guns.  It's like taking a stray dog and turning him into a
champion.  All it takes is work.

As for the pistol, I took it apart, cleaned and oiled everything, check all
parts for signs of fatigue (always do that when you buy a used firearm) and
took it out for a trial shoot over the weekend.  I used a low charge of 15
grains of 2F without a bullet to test ignition a couple of times, then the
same thing with 25 grains.  Next I cleaned it out and used 25 grains with a
patched ball, and again it worked fine.  I fired two more times with
patched balls and no problems.  Then I took it completely apart and checked
all parts again.

I wasn't target shooting, per se.  I was firing at a small prickly-pear
cactus and hit it twice.  It performed ok.  Just think what I can do after
I set the sights and practice.  We all know that pistols don't generally
hit much beyond 30-40 feet, so I wasn't looking for this one to perform
great first time out.

The moral is treat your guns right and they'll treat you right.  Anyone can
shoot well with a superior rifle, but the person that can take a mediocre
firearm and work with it to make it perform well, is no slouch either.  If
it works for you, that's all that matters.  And CVA guns (so far) work for
me.

BTW, among my fur trade era guns I have a Navy Arms flinter, which also
shoots well.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:01:25 -0500
From: Elizabeth Pidgeon <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic

Carp
 While my reaserch can not be concidered exaustave the earliest "Union
Suits " I have found by searching origanal catolougs heve been from the
early 1890's .
 Although elastic was known in the mid 19th century it was not used in th=
e
same way as on the modern union suit . I will now defer to those more
knoledgable than myself in this matter .
                                                C.P Ontis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:15:33 -0600
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic

Carpenter's wrote:

> has anyone seen reference to the availability of union suits (thermal
> underwear) during the fur trade era?

According to the archives of Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary"
the term "union suit" first appeared in the printed English language in
1901.

Iron Burner

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:10:13 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

Chris Sega writes:

> It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I
>  wish I still had that barrel.  Overall the quality of CVA guns is poor,
>  but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good.  Not just
>  tolerable, but VERY good.  If I had to take one part from a CVA gun it
>  would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away.

Chris,
I didn't see anyone answer your original question, so I will give it a shot.
People often stray from the topic at hand.

Take that 5" CVA barrel and remove the breech.  The size of the breechplug
will determine how much you can ream it out.  You cannot go larger than the
threads of the breechplug, unless you want to rethread the breech and install
a larger breechplug.

There is a product on the market called a Unibit.  It is a tapered step drill
with cutting edges every 1/16th of an inch, and it goes up to 1/2"  You will
also have to get a bit extension for it.  Since the bit is tapered, it is
self-centering, and will progressively cut through the barrel.  It must be
done on a drill press, to get the proper cutting pressure and control.  Once
you have run the bit through the barrel, you will have a smoothbore barrel of
50 caliber.

Now, you can either get a small brake cylinder hone, or a wooden dowel with
sandpaper on it, and polish the inside of the bore.  VOILA.....you have a 5"
smoothbore pistol barrel.  They ain't all that accurate anyhow, are they?

For a little added effect, file and polish the top flats of the barrel, until
you have a half round barrel, and file all the flats for the last inch of the
front of the barrel.  With the proper nosecap, or inletting, you now have a
faux round smoothbore barrel for your pistol.

It's not a lot of work.  Also, if you can obtain a CVA flint lock, you can
replace the percussion lock in your existing stock, and it only takes about a
half hour.  Remove the percussion drum, and make a touch-hole liner from a 10
X (?) metric bolt.  However, if you have a snail breech, then you cannot do
this.

It is a fun conversion and only takes a few hours, if you have the drill
press.

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:28:47 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: CVA Products

I think we went this round once or twice before......

Like many others, my introduction to black powder was by way of an inexpensive
CVA Mountain Rifle kit back in 1975. The thing always shot well and I put a
lot of balls through it over the years. A few years back I had to change the
main spring as it had finally lost much of its spring.

I did notice that sometime in the mid 80's, CVA's products took a turn for the
worse and you couldn't give me anything they make nowadays. (Except if it were
real cold outside and i was out of firewood)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the original CVA products were
better than their later products, but even the early stuff doesn't come close
to being called "quality."  I have a nice semi custom rifle now, but I also
still have the CVA and it keeps on ticking.

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:53:47 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

You are dead on about blowing your head off.  Several years ago a Tandy
Ranger type buckskinner showed up at our club rendezvous with a very cheap
pistol.   He thought the funniest thing imaginable was to load very heavy
charges of powder under just a wad and discharge the loud blank loads,
thinking that they were perfectly harmless.  On Sunday afternoon, as he was
packing up to leave, he decided that one more really loud shot was needed.
When he pulled the trigger the thing blew up, sending cheap pistol parts
flying everywhere, peppering our boy with shrapnel.  The breach plug, which
was pinned not threaded, cut a deep furrow from just under one eye almost to
his ear.  When I got to him, maybe five minutes afterwards, he still was not
coherent, but he knew that he was lucky to be alive.
I suppose the lesson here is to never buy cheap guns in the first place and
never ever shoot one.
Lanney Ratcliff
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jerry H. Wheeler <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols


>in reply to hawks statement. cheap junk is cheap junk and a good way to
blow
>your fool head off if you don't look what your doing. if you got a 10.00
head
>get a 10.00 pistol.
>
your
>most disobedient
>
>servant  iron tongue
>
>michael pierce wrote:
>
>> haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot  consistant---most of them the
>> rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is
>> the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with a
>> douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and
>> shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above
>> statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles
>> consistantly.  some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and
>> a while---give me a hand cut rifleing  or a cut rifleing any time and i
>> will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the
>> early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or
>> consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or
>> better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them
>> print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH
>> SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT----
>>
>> Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel and
>> all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion...
>> =+=
>> hawk
>> michael pierce
>> 854 glenfield dr.
>> palm harbor florida 34684     e-mail:   [e-mail]
>>
>> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
>> writes:
>> >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote:
>> >
>> >>Friends,
>> >>
>> >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for
>> >$75.00,
>> >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol.  The lock
>> >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my
>> >old
>> >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA).  The pistol was =
>> >apparently
>> >>made in Spain  and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with
>> >the
>> >>serial number 0040879.  It is not marked CVA anywhere.  Someone told
>> >me
>> >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain.  CVA firearms were very
>> >good =
>> >(my
>> >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger
>> >and
>> >>all) and I assume they still are.
>> >>
>> >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain
>> >and=
>> > if
>> >>they still do.  Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the
>> >=
>> >serial
>> >>number?
>> >>
>> >>Thanks,
>> >>HBC
>> >>
>> >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's,
>> >1980-1 at latest.  I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart
>> >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types.
>> >Serial number is  35xxx.  I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift
>> >back in '87.  Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all
>> >made overseas.
>> >
>> >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just
>> >to see how good it will still do.  I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and
>> >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it.
>> >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot
>> >smaller than they did 20 years ago.  I could see them back then,
>> >mostly.
>> >
>> >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something.
>> >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started
>> >using it on a friend's recommendation.  Great stuff.
>> >
>> >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including
>> >=
>> >"BS".
>> >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________
>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:57:33 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: rubber manga's

I have two rubber manga's. What is the history of these, when were they
available? Were they at any rendevous? My is starting to dry out, can any
type of repair work for this. I am considering using rubber latex to paint
over the cracks.
Thanks in advance
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
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Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:27:51 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic

In a message dated 98-10-26 12:12:15 EST, you write:

<< has anyone seen reference to the availability of union suits (thermal
 underwear) during the fur trade era?  Also, if they were available, what
 about the elastic around the wrists ankles?  What about elastic, in
 general? >>


Did some checking on this subject a few years ago.  The wife had a book on
under garments -- which, by the way, during our selected time frame included
everything except the top coat -- even trousers were considered "under
garments".  "Union suits" used to be called "all-in-ones".  The book was REAL
vague about when they were introduced.  It broke history up into 15 - 20 year
segments & in the 1880 - 1895 segment it made the comment "All-in-ones
continue their popularity." but no where does it state when they came into
being.  The elastic properties of the cuffs were due to the type of knitting
done in that area & didn't have any rubber in it like in modern elastic.
According to that book, elastic was introduced in clothing between 1910 &
1920.  Earlier women's clothing that looked like it had elastic in it was made
with simple draw strings & lacing (called "stroked").  Intresting book.  Wish
I could lay hands on it & pass along the title & author.  For us Rocky
Mountain fur trade types, it isn't too much help, but for F&I, Rev War, &
settlement types it's a wealth of info in dealing what style chemese or vest
was used when.

NM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:12:39 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols

I should have said "never ever abuse one with heavy loads".  Have cheap
pistols checked out by a competent gunsmith to determine if they are safe to
shoot.  Also learn the difference between cheap and inexpensive.
Inexpensive guns are generally safe enough to shoot, just be leary of cheap
junk.  The pistol that blew up was not a CVA, but a nameless import.
Lanney Ratcliff
- -----Original Message-----
From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols


>You are dead on about blowing your head off.  Several years ago a Tandy
>Ranger type buckskinner showed up at our club rendezvous with a very cheap
>pistol.   He thought the funniest thing imaginable was to load very heavy
>charges of powder under just a wad and discharge the loud blank loads,
>thinking that they were perfectly harmless.  On Sunday afternoon, as he was
>packing up to leave, he decided that one more really loud shot was needed.
>When he pulled the trigger the thing blew up, sending cheap pistol parts
>flying everywhere, peppering our boy with shrapnel.  The breach plug, which
>was pinned not threaded, cut a deep furrow from just under one eye almost
to
>his ear.  When I got to him, maybe five minutes afterwards, he still was
not
>coherent, but he knew that he was lucky to be alive.
>I suppose the lesson here is to never buy cheap guns in the first place and
>never ever shoot one.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jerry H. Wheeler <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 9:15 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols
>
>
>>in reply to hawks statement. cheap junk is cheap junk and a good way to
>blow
>>your fool head off if you don't look what your doing. if you got a 10.00
>head
>>get a 10.00 pistol.
>>
>your
>>most disobedient
>>
>>servant  iron tongue
>>
>>michael pierce wrote:
>>
>>> haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot  consistant---most of them the
>>> rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is
>>> the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with
a
>>> douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and
>>> shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above
>>> statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles
>>> consistantly.  some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and
>>> a while---give me a hand cut rifleing  or a cut rifleing any time and i
>>> will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the
>>> early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or
>>> consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or
>>> better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them
>>> print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH
>>> SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT----
>>>
>>> Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel
and
>>> all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion...
>>> =+=
>>> hawk
>>> michael pierce
>>> 854 glenfield dr.
>>> palm harbor florida 34684     e-mail:   [e-mail]
>>>
>>> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
>>> writes:
>>> >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>Friends,
>>> >>
>>> >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for
>>> >$75.00,
>>> >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol.  The lock
>>> >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my
>>> >old
>>> >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA).  The pistol was =
>>> >apparently
>>> >>made in Spain  and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with
>>> >the
>>> >>serial number 0040879.  It is not marked CVA anywhere.  Someone told
>>> >me
>>> >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain.  CVA firearms were very
>>> >good =
>>> >(my
>>> >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger
>>> >and
>>> >>all) and I assume they still are.
>>> >>
>>> >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain
>>> >and=
>>> > if
>>> >>they still do.  Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the
>>> >=
>>> >serial
>>> >>number?
>>> >>
>>> >>Thanks,
>>> >>HBC
>>> >>
>>> >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's,
>>> >1980-1 at latest.  I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart
>>> >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types.
>>> >Serial number is  35xxx.  I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift
>>> >back in '87.  Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all
>>> >made overseas.
>>> >
>>> >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just
>>> >to see how good it will still do.  I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and
>>> >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it.
>>> >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot
>>> >smaller than they did 20 years ago.  I could see them back then,
>>> >mostly.
>>> >
>>> >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something.
>>> >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started
>>> >using it on a friend's recommendation.  Great stuff.
>>> >
>>> >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including
>>> >=
>>> >"BS".
>>> >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:00:02 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber manga's

What's a rubber manga?

HBC

>I have two rubber manga's. What is the history of these, when were they
>available? Were they at any rendevous? My is starting to dry out, can any
>type of repair work for this. I am considering using rubber latex to paint
>over the cracks.
>Thanks in advance
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:04:39 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CVA Products

If this discussion was had before, I apologize for missing it.  I am sure
both of my CVA's are good guns.  They were probably made before the company
began cutting corners.

The Mountain Rifle I have (ser. #66574) is the old style complete with two
barrel keys, patch box, German silver nose cap, and double set triggers,
none of which are found in the newer version.  It has a good breech plug
and a strong barrel.  It was also made here in the USA.  Says so on the
barrel.  Apparently when they changed the style, they also changed the
quality.

Todd is right.  The older CVA's, which both of mine are, are certainly
better than the newer ones.  My pistol's breech end, nipple assembly, and
lock system are made exactly like the old mountain rifle, which is well
built.  All being said, I think I'll keep them both.

Cheers,
HBC


>I think we went this round once or twice before......
>
>Like many others, my introduction to black powder was by way of an inexpensive
>CVA Mountain Rifle kit back in 1975. The thing always shot well and I put a
>lot of balls through it over the years. A few years back I had to change the
>main spring as it had finally lost much of its spring.
>
>I did notice that sometime in the mid 80's, CVA's products took a turn for the
>worse and you couldn't give me anything they make nowadays. (Except if it were
>real cold outside and i was out of firewood)
>
>I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the original CVA products were
>better than their later products, but even the early stuff doesn't come close
>to being called "quality."  I have a nice semi custom rifle now, but I also
>still have the CVA and it keeps on ticking.
>
>Todd Glover

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:41:02 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: underwear

I just returned to this list after being gone for
a while.  Noticed an inquiry about "union suits"
and assume that someone is looking for info on
underwear in the 1800-1850 or so period.  First,
you might review the piece on trapper clothing in
BOB VII.  In summary, before about 1850 there WAS
male underwear.  The waist down was covered by
"drawers" which could  be any fabric, but were
usually wool flannel.  The most common
configuration seems to have been knee length, with
a simple button overlap in front and a drawstring
at the waist in back.
During this same time period a wool flannel shirt
was commonly thought of as the preferred garment
to wear next to the skin and therefore could be
thought of as the upper underwear.
One-piece knitted (or woven fabric for that
matter) underwear suits do not seem to have been
around before 1850, or at least I've never found
any evidence of them.  If someone has, please pass
along the cites.  Knitted wool upper body garments
were relatively common in the early 19th century
for men and seem to have looked exactly like a
modern crew neck sweater.  They seem to have been
outer garments, not underwear.  Most seem tohave
been English manufacture and were sold to trapers
in the West during the 1830s.
Allen Chronister.

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #162
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