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hist_text-digest       Friday, September 4 1998       Volume 01 : Number 133




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Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:37:46 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Leman rifles

Ditto the comments of Michael Pierce.  Twenty plus
years ago when everybody had to have a Hawken copy
to be a real mountain man, some people turned to
Leman copies as a cheaper alternative for a
"period" gun.  The Lemans that most people put out
back then were short-barrel  half or full stock
copies of Leman guns made primarily in the
post-1850 period (as were many of the Hawken
copies that people made and carried back then).
By now we (should) know better and not assume that
every gun drawn by Carl Russell for his book was
of a type available to a trapper in the 1820-30
west.  Leman guns surrendered by Sioux and
Cheyenne warriors in 1877 were not the same guns
carried by trappers in 1827.
For my money, if someone wants a good,
historically-supportable 1820-30 period gun, then
go for a generic Lancaster (often called the
"American" pattern in the 1830s) or an English
pattern gun.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:53:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: [e-mail] (A D)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle

   New to this type of powder hunting, shooting. All I know off Mt. Men/
Tappers has come for noveles and Hoolywood, so that means I knew
nothing. Like the Hawkens rifle, I though everone had to have one, and
big fancy knifes. Please don't LOL. All my past expereance has been with
Civil War type guns and gear. But recently I got involved with NA Pow
wows and leather work. This time frame falls right in with my to make
stuff. I'm a disabadled Vet and make things for the joy of doing, never
ment to make any money at it.( Not SPAM just to let you know where I'm
coming from)
     I got my frist flinter becuse starting in our back yard, a U.S.
forest reserve starts. Only premitive wepones can be used, bows, and
flintlocks. I found this gun in a pawn shop, it's a short barreld
Traditions (SP) I coverd the rubber but plate, and part of the stock
with elk hide this also formed a "pocket" to hold fast charges. Got it
from Backwoodsman. With hunting season 57 days, bag limet 1 a day we
sould have plenty of meat and hides this year. LOL
    I have tried writing before but couldn't get through. Allso new to
these toys. Sorry about ridding in on a nother message.

D'Wolfen



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:17:26 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1750s-1770s Firearms (long rifles)

In a message dated 98-08-31 11:58:27 EDT, you write:

<<
 1)  Can anyone provide suggestions for an appropriate long-arm for a 1750s
 (F&I) militiaman/Provincial ranger and post-war longhunter in the
 backcountry of Maryland, Virginia, and Pennsylvania? Since this persona
 will also serve in the AWI, again most likely in a ranger/rifleman/militia
 unit, it'd be best if it was a weapon which he could plausibly retain
 through the 1770s, as well.
  >>

You can not go wrong with an early colonial 20 guage fowler or a Brown Bess or
a Tulle.  Both the Tulle and the fowler are available in kit or fully
assembled in the white (unfinished) or finished from CenterMark Inc., P.O. Box
575, Fredonia, NY 14063, 716-679-0276.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 01:53:08 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: 4th grade field trip

Hey folks,

   I received the message below and have responded. Please if you have the
time, read it and respond as well to:  [e-mail] (Debbie Wade)
   (*Please, respond to the address above, don't hit "Reply")

                                                 Thanks,
                                                         Longshot

<<Came across your site and it looked as if it might have what I'm looking
for.  I am taking a group of 4th graders to a Rendezvous on Friday the 4th
and I'm looking for questions to put on a work sheet that they can ask the
people at the Rendezvous.  The purpose of the questions would be that they
would be able to learn and come back with information about the pre-1840
fur trade era and also information on the midwest Indians of that era.  Any
help you could give me would be much appreciated.   Thanks  Deb Wade>>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 01:04:24 -0700
From: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Minnesota

the list.... I will be making a trip to the Virginia Minnesota area in a
week or so, will be going by Mankato,Minneapolis,Duluth,and Virginia. Are
there any historical places or ML shops along this route? Places to
stop.....     thanks   Frank  off line   [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 01:19:58 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle

most leman guns were less than 50 cal and as you well know a 54 caliber
is 28 balls to the pound.  most of his adds and stuff show guns from 40
to 60 balls to the pound--in other words well below 40 cal  most ran
around 34 cal for some reason.

as I stated the only one i saw was in a book and followed the lines of
malcomb fordney
who he apprenticed under in 1825-- all of the contract muskets were
smooth bore not rifled---those are shown in the references that i gave--
they are quite ugley--heavy or bulky looking and probably made in support
of the cival war--or around that time period---havent seen any early
flint contract muskets with leman's name and i have perused a lot of
military records on procurement of contract guns-THEY MAY BE OUT THERE
THOUGH --last year i did a couple of restoration jobs on contract muskets
with one coming from rosebud indian reservation  it was made of beech
wood  AND IN PITIFUL CONDITION  it was a Norwich dated 1835---had a hell
of a time getting wood to match and to repair it with-- at first i
thought it was made from ash but after a while decided it was beech---I
have 2 very early flint contract musket locks---that i want to build a
gun around-- one is french and one is english with brass removable
pans--VARY LARGE  and  beautiful locks and both are in excelent
condition---Kieth Neubier wants them so bad its pathetic---says he has
the parts that go with them-- IE Barrel and such-  been trying to get him
to part with his parts-- almost like a mexican standoff --would be a hell
of a restoration job but extremely valuable when completed--several
thousand dollers each if done period correct---

yes there are a few that survived --check out the Davis Collection I
believe i saw one there in clarimore oklahoma.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:28:51 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hawk,
>  I read somewhere that Leman's first govt. contract was for a small
>number
>of flint guns. For the life of me I can't remember where I read it. I
>have
>seen one full stock Leman at a anique gun show. As you have said the
>name
>on the top flat of the barrel was in one line. It was a big bore gun,
>probably .60 cal., rather thick wristed with plain wood. It was a
>percusion
>gun. Leman made rifles under several names for the govt. Indian Trade.
>One
>that was, by todays standards quite bizzare, was THE CONESTOGA RIFLE
>WORKS.
>I believe it is Kaufman's book that states these guns were stocked in
>curly
>maple then painted with barn red paint to be more appealing ot the
>Indians.
>I agree that there were probably very few flint Leman's. As far as I
>know
>there isn't any of those first contract guns that survived.
> Pendleton
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:49:10 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman rifles

confirm on the lancaster  or english pattern of guns---MY favorite was
Malcomb Fordney--then next is the english pattern guns but many of the
english pattern guns were made in the pensivania area in one of the other
schools---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:37:46 +0100 Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Ditto the comments of Michael Pierce.  Twenty plus
>years ago when everybody had to have a Hawken copy
>to be a real mountain man, some people turned to
>Leman copies as a cheaper alternative for a
>"period" gun.  The Lemans that most people put out
>back then were short-barrel  half or full stock
>copies of Leman guns made primarily in the
>post-1850 period (as were many of the Hawken
>copies that people made and carried back then).
>By now we (should) know better and not assume that
>every gun drawn by Carl Russell for his book was
>of a type available to a trapper in the 1820-30
>west.  Leman guns surrendered by Sioux and
>Cheyenne warriors in 1877 were not the same guns
>carried by trappers in 1827.
>For my money, if someone wants a good,
>historically-supportable 1820-30 period gun, then
>go for a generic Lancaster (often called the
>"American" pattern in the 1830s) or an English
>pattern gun.
>Allen Chronister
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:54:21 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1750s-1770s Firearms (long rifles)

1750's - 1770's ? the tulle fusil, in almost any form, is ideal.  Centermark
makes kits and finished or semi-finished guns in 3 different models, all of
which would be appropriate.  All smoothbore, so will fire ball or shot or
combo or both, even pebbles if thats what you got at hand.  I have a Grenadier
(military high polish with bayonet) and its extremely reliable and very
accurate.   Owned by Paul Silbert, they are located at PO Box 575 Fredonia NY
phone [phone].    Try it, you'll like it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:50:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Centermark

On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:
> You can not go wrong with an early colonial 20 guage fowler or a Brown Bess or
> a Tulle.  Both the Tulle and the fowler are available in kit or fully
> assembled in the white (unfinished) or finished from CenterMark Inc., P.O. Box
> 575, Fredonia, NY 14063, 716-679-0276.

Good Day All....

What kind of reputation does Centermark have as far as quality, wood to
metal fit, standing by their products?

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:34:22 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Minnesota

>the list.... I will be making a trip to the Virginia Minnesota area in a
>week or so, will be going by Mankato,Minneapolis,Duluth,and Virginia. Are
>there any historical places or ML shops along this route? Places to
>stop.....     thanks   Frank  off line   [e-mail]

Ya gotta see Ft. Snelling, at Minneapolis.  That's a given.  Visit with my
friend and colleague Tom Shaw, who works at the Fort.  He has a reputation
as a great period shirt maker, and he knows his stuff.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:42:14 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Centermark

Lee, The "grenadier" I own, and the ones I've seen have been first rate.
Quality of parts, fit, finish, attention to detail, correctness and
serviceability included.  Although I have never needed aftermarket help with
CenterMark, getting the kit was a long wait, and I have heard others remark
that the only problem with them is they are slow on delivery 'cuz they can't
fill the orders as fast as they get 'em.  I would think that's a testament to
the merchandise in itself.  Maybe some others will have some input too.  YHS,
PJ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:12:13 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Centermark

I bought a French smoothbore from Centermark, and I must say they were
prompt in my
delivery. Have used it a lot and it is a fine piece of work. I wanted to
buy one in the white,
but I was in quite a hurry and he had one that fit just right. They were
very helpful over the
phone with my questions and request. I dont think you will go wrong with
the choice.

Steve McGehee

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:19:03 -0500
From: "Amy Vaclaw" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston

Dear Ken:

I noticed a reference by you about the reburial of J. Johnston.  I'm working
on a dissertation about the mountain man in American popular culture and
want to include this episode in my studies.  I've known about the reburial
since my youth.  I have a few magazine articles about it.  But you reference
to a pamphlet about the affair is enticing.  Would you be willing to xerox
me a copy of that pamphlet for my research files?  Let me know if you can
and what the costs of copying and mailing would be.

Hope to hear from you soon,

Matt Despian
Dept. of History
University of Oklahoma
1339 homeland Ave
Norman, OK  73072
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 11:47:18 -0500
From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Reburial of Liver-Eating Johnston

I'm interested in talking to anyony who was involved in the reburial of
Liver-eating Johnston in the mid-1970s.  As a youth I heard about it
from a buckskinner in the black powder club I was in, his name was Owen
Freebarron (if memory serves right).  Anyway, the recent postings on
Johnston has aroused my interest in this event.  I am the one working on
a dissertaion on the mountian man in American culture and history who
occasionally jumps in this group to find insight and information, and
that is what I'm about here now.  I would like anyone who was involved
in that reburial to e-mail me thier experiences with or rememberances on
it.  Anything and everything about it could and would be of value.  If
anyone knows about articles or newspaper clipping about it or about a
booklet I've recently caught wind of, I'd be very interested in those
too.  You can contact me directly or post here in the group.

Thanks ahead of time for all those can help out,

Matt Despain
[e-mail]

Dept of History
University of Oklahoma
1339 Homland Ave.
Norman, OK  73072

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #133
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