Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
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Ben <beb1@sisna.com> wrote:
Is this presented in such a way that a person without the training in ecology and population dynamics can still understand clearly how preposterous the ôaccepted wisdomö about the bison is?
IÆm probably not qualified to judge that because I have spent a career since 1953 working with the subject of wildlife population dynamics.
Tell me if this piques your interest.
A couple of references: Death on the Prairies by Paul I Wellman and
The Buffalo Book by David A Dary (avon Books 1974)The Time of The Buffalo, Tom McHugh. Alfred Knopf, 1972
Ben
Ben, Oh yes, I'm interested. I don't believe Isenburg covers your first point or even refers to it. 1/7th shrinks the herd quite a bit. He does address environment and disease, and he adds disease into the mix, but doesn't give it all the credit.
Marie Sandoz wrote that by 1860 ( I think that is the right date) only one of every ten animals was female. Indians killed females and very young bulls for the robes, bull hide was not desirable for robes. Not every robe represented the number of animals killed because others were required for food clothing and shelter. Spring hunts used up pregnant animals etc. That seems to be a big factor.
I look forward to pondering your post over the next week. It is too much to absorb quickly. I think maybe there were not nearly as many buffalo left for hide hunters to kill as previously thought.
Do you have more info like you posted?
Lee
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial>Is this presented in such a way that a person without the training in ecology and population dynamics can still understand clearly how preposterous the ôaccepted wisdomö about the bison is?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial size=2>IÆm probably not qualified to judge that because I have spent a career since 1953 working with the subject of wildlife population dynamics.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial size=2>A couple of references: <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Death on the Prairies by Paul I Wellman<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></I>and</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">The Buffalo Book by David A Dary</I> (avon Books 1974)<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">The Time of The Buffalo, </I>Tom McHugh. Alfred Knopf, 1972</FONT></FONT></P>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Ben, Oh yes, I'm interested. I don't believe Isenburg covers your first point or even refers to it. 1/7th shrinks the herd quite a bit. He does address environment and disease, and he adds disease into the mix, but doesn't give it all the credit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Marie Sandoz wrote that by 1860 ( I think that is the right date) only one of every ten animals was female. Indians killed females and very young bulls for the robes, bull hide was not desirable for robes. Not every robe represented the number of animals killed because others were required for food clothing and shelter. Spring hunts used up pregnant animals etc. That seems to be a big factor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">I look forward to pondering your post over the next week. It is too much to absorb quickly. I think maybe there were not nearly as many buffalo left for hide hunters to kill as previously thought.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Do you have more info like you posted?</FONT></DIV>
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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:42:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Teter <leeteter@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
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SWcushing@aol.com wrote:
Hi Lee,
I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books on buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Francis Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in the others.
Are you recommending the Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew Isenburg?
Ymos,
Magpie
______________
Magpie,
Yes, I'd recommend reading it.
I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.
Lee
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<P><BR>Hi Lee,<BR><BR>I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books on buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Francis Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in the others.<BR><BR>Are you recommending the </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><U>Destruction of the Buffalo</U></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> by Andrew Isenburg?<BR><BR>Ymos,<BR>Magpie</FONT></P><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.</FONT></FONT></P>
<DIV> What I had always heard and read about the =
causes of the=20
loss of bison population was that there was a concerted effort to wipe =
out the=20
animals in an effort to wipe out the Indians. By removing the source of =
food and=20
hides the Indians would, likewise, die off.</DIV>
<DIV> Also, part of this 'plan' included stopping of =
trains as=20
they crossed the prairies for the purpose of 'sport' shooting buffalo =
and=20
leaving the carcasses to rot.</DIV>
<DIV> As a substitute teacher I have seen these two=20
'explanations' in text books many times.</DIV>
<DIV> Of course, blaming the white man is much more PC =
than=20
the truth.</DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:01:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Teter <leeteter@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
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"John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com> wrote:Isenberg's conclusions are consistent with those of many other researchers over the last decade who haven't had the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment as Isenberg has.
Have I just won another oak-leaf cluster for my Curmudgeon badge?
John
________________________________________
I think you may have won an oak-leaf cluster for the present, but future generations will take it away and use it to garnish the "head-in-the-sand" badge worn by those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where it can be read. How can people do that to their own children? The evidence continues to line up with Isenburg's book. Of course, the "Dances With Wolves" version is very appealing.
Lee
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>"John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com></I></B> wrote:
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Isenberg's conclusions are consistent with those of many other researchers over the last decade who haven't had the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment as Isenberg has. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Have I just won another oak-leaf cluster for my Curmudgeon badge?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I think you may have won an oak-leaf cluster for the present, but future generations will take it away and use it to garnish the "head-in-the-sand" badge worn by those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where it can be read. How can people do that to their own children? The evidence continues to line up with Isenburg's book. Of course, the "Dances With Wolves" version is very appealing. </DIV>
<DIV>Lee</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:57:15 -0700
From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
>
>
> SWcushing@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Hi Lee,
>
> I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books on
> buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Francis
> Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by
> David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in the
> others.
>
> Are you recommending the Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew Isenburg?
>
> Ymos,
> Magpie
>
> ______________
>
> Magpie,
>
> Yes, I'd recommend reading it.
>
> I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so.
> New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while.
> Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget
> that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.
>
>
>
> Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
I have read most every book on the hunting of the bison and spent 4 years
giving lectures. My thoughts are that once it was discovered that bison
could replace cow belting leather for the factorys, we were in the
industrial age by 1872, the US, Germany, and England needed leather belting
and the population of cows avaliable for leather decreased at this time.
Given the number of bison that froze to death, drowned, died in fires, added
to the number of bison killed for leather robes, (check the numbers at the
hide collection yards) more people moving west via railroad and needing
food, bison needed to feed the rail workders, etc, the population had to
decrease. The native population did have a significant effect on the
population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were
driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in
separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the
missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.
Just some thoughts,
Joe Brandl
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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:02:09 -0700
From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
>
>
> "John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com> wrote:Isenberg's conclusions are
> consistent with those of many other researchers over the last decade who
> haven't had the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment as
> Isenberg has.
>
> Have I just won another oak-leaf cluster for my Curmudgeon badge?
>
> John
>
> ________________________________________
>
> I think you may have won an oak-leaf cluster for the present, but future
> generations will take it away and use it to garnish the "head-in-the-sand"
> badge worn by those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where
> it can be read. How can people do that to their own children? The evidence
> continues to line up with Isenburg's book. Of course, the "Dances With Wolves"
> version is very appealing.
> Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
Another note, there was an effort by Sherman and Sheridan to incourage the
buffalo hunters to slaugter as many buffalo as possible to make it difficult
for the Indians, see Sheridans report to the Texas legisture when they tried
to pass a tax on robes, The army did little to enforce hunting on Indians
lands.
Joe Brandl
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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:06:07 -0700
From: "Ben" <beb1@sisna.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
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Hi Lee,
<Do you have any other information like this?
Sorry Lee but I don't. I did however contact the author of the piece =
I posted and he's given me permission to give you his name and email =
address so you can contact him. It is Alan Stumph at Alanisin10@aol.com =
The article he wrote completely changed my view of the buffalo hunter =
as the prime factor in the demise of the buffalo. Taking his facts as =
truth's ( I haven't checked them against any other source) he plainly =
shows that it was desease and natural causes not the buffalo hunter =
that was the primary cause of the buffalo's near extinction. Thinking =
about it...if the Indian only killed cows for robes and food (cows that =
carried calves in the Spring hunt)...this also would be a prime factor.
At any rate, this is an interesting topic and one that has long been =
"miss-reported" by conventional wisdom.
Ben
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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:24:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Teter <leeteter@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
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Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> wrote:
The native population did have a significant effect on the
population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were
driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in
separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the
missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.
Just some thoughts,
Joe Brandl
________________
Joe,
The horse was the change that made Indian impact on buffalo most profound. The horse allowed tribes to make buffalo hunting, and living on the plains, a full time occupation. Millions of horses acquired by tribes, were kept with them on the plains in prime water and grass areas, using up resources buffalo needed. The pressure on the buffalo came from many directions.
Indian culture changed because of the horse (remember the Sioux and many other "plains tribes" were mostly woodland Indians before the horse). When the culture became so "buffalo focused" it left behind many saftey nets, such as their agriculture and ancient social saftey nets.
There is no doubt industrial North America finished off the buffalo efficiently. The point unnoticed for so long, has been that hunting practices by Native Americans were pushing the buffalo to extinction and would have, even if the hide hunters never came West. The robe trade was hard on females because their hide was best for robes. Males don't carry calves, so the reproduction base was greatly harmed. By the time the first buffalo was killed to make leather belting, the buffalo had declined to a point that inter-tribal war was a problem as tribes fought over the remaining herds.
Lee
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<P> The native population did have a significant effect on the<BR>population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were<BR>driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in<BR>separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the<BR>missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.<BR><BR>Just some thoughts,<BR><BR>Joe Brandl<BR><BR>________________</P>
<P>Joe,</P>
<P>The horse was the change that made Indian impact on buffalo most profound. The horse allowed tribes to make buffalo hunting, and living on the plains, a full time occupation. Millions of horses acquired by tribes, were kept with them on the plains in prime water and grass areas, using up resources buffalo needed. The pressure on the buffalo came from many directions.</P>
<P>Indian culture changed because of the horse (remember the Sioux and many other "plains tribes" were mostly woodland Indians before the horse). When the culture became so "buffalo focused" it left behind many saftey nets, such as their agriculture and ancient social saftey nets. </P>
<P>There is no doubt industrial North America finished off the buffalo efficiently. The point unnoticed for so long, has been that hunting practices by Native Americans were pushing the buffalo to extinction and would have, even if the hide hunters never came West. The robe trade was hard on females because their hide was best for robes. Males don't carry calves, so the reproduction base was greatly harmed. By the time the first buffalo was killed to make leather belting, the buffalo had declined to a point that inter-tribal war was a problem as tribes fought over the remaining herds.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Lee</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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