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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1315 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, February 15 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1315 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Is this thing working? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:52:24 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - --part1_165.2b17d23c.2d619878_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/15/04 7:13:38 PM, leeteter@yahoo.com writes: > My own little paper, a=A0paltry thing compared to this book, was put toget= her=20 > to accompany some of my art and was slowly built on evidence I found after= =20 > seeing references by trappers who were commenting on the decline of the bi= son=20 > as early as the 1830's >=20 Hi Lee, I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books=20 on buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Franc= is=20 Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by=20 David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in the= =20 others. Are you recommending the Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew Isenburg? Ymos, Magpie =A0 - --part1_165.2b17d23c.2d619878_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><HTML> In a message dated 2/15/04 7:13:38 PM, leeteter@yahoo.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE CITE STYLE=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20= MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE=3D"CITE">My own little paper,=20= a=A0paltry thing compared to this book, was put together to accompany some o= f my art and was slowly built on evidence I found after seeing references by= trappers who were commenting on the decline of the bison as early as the 18= 30's </BLOCKQUOTE> Hi Lee, I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books=20= on buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Franc= is Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by= David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in th= e others. Are you recommending the Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew I= senburg? Ymos, Magpie =A0 </HTML> - --part1_165.2b17d23c.2d619878_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:01:09 -0800 From: "RP Lahti" <amm1719@charter.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0147_01C3F3FE.741AEBF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <Tell me if this piques your interest.> That it does Ben, that it does. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ben=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 7:46 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo Hello Lee, A friend, Alan Stumph, a wildlife zoologist and botonist put this = paper together. It gave me a whole different outlook on the = extermination of the buffalo. I thought it was quite interesting. I think you would be interested in the information I had collected on = the Bison and their near extinction. I think it is an absolutely = amazing story and demonstrates clearly how something that is taught in = error for so many years is so blindly accepted by the public. This won't = be a paper, I am reconstructing the facts from notes and references and = it will seem just a personal narrative. =20 First a series of facts (and near facts in the absence of precise = numbers) =B7 The population of Bison at the end of the civil war was = estimated variously at 35 million to 75 million. Based on the number of = square miles occupied at the time and educated estimates of the carrying = capacity per acre, I favor the lower end of that range. =B7 Long term studies of Bison by Dr. Mary Meagher at = Yellowstone found that in the wild a ten year old bison was an oddity, = normal average life span is more like 7 years. The literature is full = of references to 15 or twenty year old animals in captivity, these do = not reflect the norm in the wild. These are pampered, well fed, zoo = animals which never even delayed a meal, let alone missed one. =B7 This means that, in the absence of disturbance, about one = seventh of the population would die naturally every year. That is a = minimum of five a million animal natural background death rate. = (Assuming the lowest population estimates.) =B7 This had been going on for millenia and the bones remain = for decades. We don't have hyenas that eat bones as they do in Africa, = or a species of vulture that also eats bones. =B7 References to huge numbers of bison bones scattered on the = prairies show up as early as the 1840's in the journals of a young = missionary travelling to join the Whitman Mission to the Nez Perce, (so = much for the huge piles of bones offered as evidence of the slaughter.) = from the original journal now in the Whitman Mission Museum in Walla = Walla WA. =B7 Calf survival of Bison is phenomenal when compared to = cattle, close to 96%. =B7 Bison range had shrunk to about half the originally = recorded distribution by the time the commercial slaughter began = following the civil war. They (in pre-contact days) occurred in = California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Idaho and as far east as = Florida, North Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania in Colonial days. (The = early Spanish reported killing them in Florida in the 1500's) The = Dominguez-Escalante expedition killed about a dozen near what is now = Vernal Utah in 1776. Coronado described them on his famous expedition = well south into Chihuahua Mexico. Zebulon Pike's expedition killed them = in South Park at the head of the Arkansas River in the Rockies. Bison = were killed in Virginia until after 1700. (The best map of bison = distribution is in the November 1994 or 95 issue of National Geographic) =B7 During the peak years of the hide trade, 1871-1873, The = Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe RR shipped 469,000 hides, in total, for = those three years. Those are the three years of greatest slaughter. This = is an average of 156,000 animals per year from a population of at least = 35 million, a population which was reproducing at a rate of at least 5 = million a year! Killing one animal out of every 200 animals is not a = very efficient way of exterminating, especially when they are = reproducing all the time. It also means that the slaughter in the three = biggest years was equal to 1/200th of the natural background death rate, = and about =BD% of the population. (State Department of Fish and Game = agencies try to keep the annual hunting harvest of deer down to 10% of = the population to keep a wide safety factor to avoid reducing the = population. This policy fails, all deer populations in all states are = increasing beyond management goals.) =20 It becomes obvious early on in this process to see that the slaughter = of the bison for hides could not possibly be the factor that brought the = animal to the verge of extinction. In fact, I believe it was cattle = diseases brought in by domestic livestock. Think about some other facts: = (These are not necessarily connected but each has the potential to have = influence). =B7 The loss of earlier range that occurred from the 1500's to = the middle 1800's might be postulated as the result of animals being = infected as the herds became exposed to cattle on the fringes of their = original range as settlement crept forward. =B7 Later, the travelers on the Oregon Trail averaged taking = 16 domestic animals apiece as they began their trek. With a quarter = million people going over the Oregon Trail, (through the heart of bison = range) it means 4 million head of livestock accompanied them. Losses = were horrendous. The carcasses remained to contaminate the bison. This = was about the time that the germ theory began to penetrate the = professional community, but not the general public. There was no such = thing as vaccination for animals. =B7 The most widespread cattle disease at the time was = brucellosis, which tends to cause a spontaneous abortion when the fetus = is about the size of a teacup! With millions of crows, magpies and = ravens following the herds, no evidence would survive more than minutes. =B7 Hide hunters were paid by the pound, so it was to their = advantage to shoot the largest animals. (males). =B7 The market for hides was primarily for the myriad of = leather belts to drive machinery in the expanding industrial revolution, = (male hides again, bigger hides yield longer, stronger belts.) =B7 The selective removal of males from a population of = animals with the polygamous pattern of mating behavior of all bovids, is = to stimulate population growth. This is because when there is selective = removal of males, many of the consumers of the largest amount of = critical winter forage are removed, leaving more and better food for = cows and calves to get through the winter. This pattern increases the = proportion of successful pregnancies and calf survival. In addition, the = percentage of the population that is made up of reproducing females = becomes gradually larger. =B7 Last, from an economic point of view: All hides were = freighted to the railheads by horse drawn wagons. Economics dictate, and = restrict, the distance beyond which such transport becomes unprofitable. = The price of the hides was fixed but the cost of getting them to the = railroad increased with each day of travel. Only three railroads = penetrated the plains at this time (two of these were small spurs in the = Dakotas), So the bison could only be profitably shot within a distance = where horse and wagon could carry the hides to the railroad and then = return for another load in a short enough time to carry enough loads to = make a profit in a season. I would estimate this would be an absolute = maximum distance of 50 or 60 miles. That's a week out and a week back = with a heavily loaded wagon. That distance from the railroads only = covers a tiny fraction of the plains. Try drawing a shaded area 60 = miles on either side of the three railroads of the times and see how = much of the plains could have been harvested of bison. =B7 Lastly, all residual populations of bison were found to be = infected with brucellosis when tests became available. =20 The scenario of the commercial shooting as the causal factor for the = disappearance of the bison simply cannot be made to make sense. In fact = it is not even remotely possible. =20 However, if you stop the replacement through birth, in about seven = years you run out of adults! I'm sure it was not a complete stop, = brucellosis spreads most commonly by the cows nuzzling the afterbirth of = the aborted fetus in curiosity. The spread would be necessarily slow. It = took 25 years from the beginning of the slaughter. However, it had = probably been going on for a century or more at the fringes of the = range. =20 Is this presented in such a way that a person without the training in = ecology and population dynamics can still understand clearly how = preposterous the "accepted wisdom" about the bison is? =20 I'm probably not qualified to judge that because I have spent a career = since 1953 working with the subject of wildlife population dynamics. =20 Tell me if this piques your interest. =20 A couple of references: Death on the Prairies by Paul I Wellman and The Buffalo Book by David A Dary (avon Books 1974)The Time of The = Buffalo, Tom McHugh. Alfred Knopf, 1972 Ben ----- Original Message -----=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0147_01C3F3FE.741AEBF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns:o =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><Tell me if=20 this piques your interest.></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That it does Ben, that it = does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Capt. Lahti'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black">From:=20 <A title=3Dbeb1@sisna.com href=3D"mailto:beb1@sisna.com">Ben</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A = title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 = 7:46=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian = contribution to decimation of buffalo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hello Lee,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A friend, Alan Stumph, a = wildlife zoologist=20 and botonist put this paper together. It gave me a whole different = outlook on=20 the extermination of the buffalo. I thought it was quite=20 interesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I think=20 you would be interested in the information I had collected on the = Bison and=20 their near extinction. = I think it=20 is an absolutely amazing story and demonstrates clearly how something = that is=20 taught in error for so many years is so blindly accepted by the = public. This=20 won=92t be a paper, I am reconstructing the facts from notes and = references and=20 it will seem just a personal narrative. <o:p> </o:p> First a=20 series of facts (and near facts in the absence of precise = numbers) <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 The population of = Bison at the=20 end of the civil war was estimated variously at 35 million to 75 = million.=20 Based on the number of square miles occupied at the time and educated=20 estimates of the carrying capacity per acre, I favor the lower end of = that=20 range. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 Long term studies of = Bison by Dr.=20 Mary Meagher at Yellowstone found that in the wild a ten year = old bison=20 was an oddity, normal average life span =20 is more like 7 years. = The=20 literature is full of references to 15 or twenty year old animals in=20 captivity, these do not reflect the norm in the wild. These are = pampered, well=20 fed, zoo animals which never even delayed a meal, let alone missed=20 one. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 This means that, <B=20 style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">in the absence of disturbance, = about=20 one seventh of the population would die naturally every year. That is = a <B=20 style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">minimum of five a million = animal=20 natural background death rate. (Assuming the lowest population=20 estimates.) <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 This had been going = on for=20 millenia and the bones remain for decades. We don=92t have hyenas that = eat bones=20 as they do in Africa, or a species of vulture that also eats = bones. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 References to = huge numbers=20 of bison bones scattered on the prairies show up as early as the = 1840=92s in the=20 journals of a young missionary travelling to join the Whitman Mission = to the=20 Nez Perce, (so much for the huge piles of bones offered as evidence of = the=20 slaughter.) from the original journal now in the Whitman Mission = Museum in=20 Walla Walla WA. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 Calf survival of = Bison is=20 phenomenal when compared to cattle, close to 96%. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 Bison range had = shrunk to about=20 half the originally recorded distribution by the time the commercial = slaughter=20 began following the civil war. They (in pre-contact days) occurred in=20 California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Idaho and as far east as = Florida,=20 North Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania in Colonial days. (The early = Spanish=20 reported killing them in Florida in the 1500=92s) The = Dominguez-Escalante=20 expedition killed about a dozen near what is now Vernal Utah in 1776. = Coronado=20 described them on his famous expedition well south into Chihuahua = Mexico.=20 Zebulon Pike=92s expedition killed them in South Park at the head of = the=20 Arkansas River in the Rockies. Bison were killed in Virginia until = after 1700.=20 (The best map of bison distribution is in the November 1994 or 95 = issue of=20 National Geographic) <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 During the = peak years of=20 the hide trade, 1871-1873, The Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe RR shipped = 469,000=20 hides, in total, for those three years. Those are the = three=20 years of greatest slaughter. This is an average of 156,000 animals per = year=20 from a population of at least 35 million, a population which was = reproducing=20 at a rate of at least 5 million a year! =20 Killing one animal out of every 200 animals is not a very = efficient way=20 of exterminating, especially when they are reproducing all the time. = It also=20 means that the slaughter in the three biggest years was equal to=20 1/200th of the natural background death rate, and about = =BD% of the=20 population. (State Department of Fish and Game agencies try to keep = the annual=20 hunting harvest of deer down to 10% of the population to keep a wide = safety=20 factor to avoid reducing the population. This policy fails, all deer=20 populations in all states are increasing beyond management = goals.) <o:p> </o:p> It=20 becomes obvious early on in this process to see that the slaughter of = the=20 bison for hides could not possibly be the factor that brought the = animal to=20 the verge of extinction. In fact, I believe it was cattle diseases = brought in=20 by domestic livestock. Think about some other facts: (These are not=20 necessarily connected but each has the potential to have=20 influence). <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 The loss of earlier = range that=20 occurred from the 1500=92s to the middle 1800=92s might be postulated = as the=20 result of animals being infected as the herds became exposed to cattle = on the=20 fringes of their original range as settlement crept = forward. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 Later, the travelers = on the=20 Oregon Trail averaged taking 16 domestic animals apiece as they began = their=20 trek. With a quarter million people going over the Oregon Trail, = (through the=20 heart of bison range) it means 4 million head of livestock accompanied = them.=20 Losses were horrendous. The carcasses remained to contaminate the = bison. This=20 was about the time that the germ theory began to penetrate the = professional=20 community, but not the general public. There was no such thing as = vaccination=20 for animals. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 The most widespread = cattle=20 disease at the time was brucellosis, which tends to cause a = spontaneous=20 abortion when the fetus is about the size of a teacup! With millions = of crows,=20 magpies and ravens following the herds, no evidence would survive more = than=20 minutes. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 Hide hunters were = paid by the=20 pound, so it was to their advantage to shoot the largest animals.=20 (males). <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 The market for hides = was=20 primarily for the myriad of leather belts to drive machinery in the = expanding=20 industrial revolution, (male hides again, bigger hides yield longer, = stronger=20 belts.) <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 The selective removal = of males=20 from a population of animals with the polygamous pattern of mating = behavior of=20 all bovids, is to stimulate population growth.<SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> This is because when there = is=20 selective removal of males, many of the consumers of the largest = amount of=20 critical winter forage are removed, leaving more and better food for = cows and=20 calves to get through the winter. =20 This pattern increases the proportion of successful pregnancies = and=20 calf survival. In addition, the percentage of the population that is = made up=20 of reproducing females becomes gradually larger. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 Last, from an = economic point of=20 view: All hides were freighted to the railheads by horse drawn wagons. = Economics dictate, and restrict, the distance beyond which such = transport=20 becomes unprofitable. The price of the hides was fixed but the cost of = getting=20 them to the railroad increased with each day of travel. Only three = railroads=20 penetrated the plains at this time (two of these were small spurs in = the=20 Dakotas), So the bison could only be profitably shot within a distance = where=20 horse and wagon could carry the hides to the railroad and then return = for=20 another load in a short enough time to carry enough loads to make a = profit in=20 a season. I would estimate this would be an absolute maximum distance = of 50 or=20 60 miles. That=92s a week out and a week back with a heavily loaded = wagon. That=20 distance from the railroads only covers a tiny fraction of the = plains.<SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> Try drawing a shaded area 60 = miles on=20 either side of the three railroads of the times and see how much of = the plains=20 could have been harvested of bison. <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; = mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New = Roman'"> =20 Lastly, all residual = populations=20 of bison were found to be infected with brucellosis when tests became=20 available. <o:p> </o:p> The=20 scenario of the commercial shooting as the causal factor for the = disappearance=20 of the bison simply cannot be made to make sense. In fact it is not = even=20 remotely possible. <o:p> </o:p> However, if you stop the replacement through birth, in about = seven=20 years you run out of adults! = I=92m=20 sure it was not a complete stop, brucellosis spreads most commonly by = the cows=20 nuzzling the afterbirth of the aborted fetus in curiosity. The spread = would be=20 necessarily slow. It took 25 years from the beginning of the = slaughter.=20 However, it had probably been going on for a century or more at the = fringes of=20 the range. <o:p> </o:p> <FONT=20 face=3DArial>Is this presented in such a way that a person without the = training=20 in ecology and population dynamics can still understand clearly how=20 preposterous the =93accepted wisdom=94 about the bison is?<SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> I=92m=20 probably not qualified to judge that because I have spent a career = since 1953=20 working with the subject of wildlife population dynamics. <o:p> </o:p> Tell me=20 if this piques your interest. <o:p> </o:p> A=20 couple of references: Death = on the=20 Prairies by Paul I Wellman =20 and <FONT=20 face=3DArial>The Buffalo Book = by David A=20 Dary (avon Books 1974)The = Time of=20 The Buffalo, Tom McHugh. Alfred Knopf, 1972 Ben</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HT= ML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0147_01C3F3FE.741AEBF0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:10:45 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Teter <leeteter@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - --0-1926462804-1076904645=:14424 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Todd D Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> wrote: Wonder how they'll accept new evidence? ____________________________________________________________ Todd, The kids will accept it pretty well, but the teachers might ask you to leave. I loaned my copy out, or I'd post a few quotes. Anyone interested in early origins of plains tribes and the origins of the horse/buffalo culture will love it. Isenburg doesn't give the "euroamericans" (I hate that term) much slack either, so don't expect an anti Indian - pro white book. It is pretty honest. The overview of the era is great. He keeps his focus on the buffalo and lets the human story follow the buffalo path to destruction, unlike books with a built in guilt trip or political agenda. He tries to make a point, of some kind, about the role of Indian women, but I never quite "get it" ( unless it is that the change in culture, due to the new plains lifestyle gave women less power to determine the state of their own society). I think you'll like it. I'd change a few words here and there ( genocide vocabulary seems to infltrate the wrap-up at the end of chapters, almost contrasting with the evidence and the previous wording), correct some infomation about firearms, add some information about the spread of disease, and things like that, but Isenburg does a good job. Lee - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-1926462804-1076904645=:14424 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <DIV> Todd D Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> Wonder how they'll accept new evidence? ____________________________________________________________ Todd, The kids will accept it pretty well, but the teachers might ask you to leave. I loaned my copy out, or I'd post a few quotes. Anyone interested in early origins of plains tribes and the origins of the horse/buffalo culture will love it. Isenburg doesn't give the "euroamericans" (I hate that term) much slack either, so don't expect an anti Indian - pro white book. It is pretty honest. The overview of the era is great. He keeps his focus on the buffalo and lets the human story follow the buffalo path to destruction, unlike books with a built in guilt trip or political agenda. He tries to make a point, of some kind, about the role of Indian women, but I never quite "get it" ( unless it is that the change in culture, due to the new plains lifestyle gave women less power to determine the state of their own society). I think you'll like it. I'd change a few words here and there ( genocide vocabulary seems to infltrate the wrap-up at the end of chapters, almost contrasting with the evidence and the previous wording), correct some infomation about firearms, add some information about the spread of disease, and things like that, but Isenburg does a good job. Lee</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><hr SIZE=1> Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a> - --0-1926462804-1076904645=:14424-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:23:54 -0700 From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is this thing working? - --------------090604030602080808060805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lee, We're here! Some of us are hunkered down w/ our Sweethearts, some are no doubt perfecting their shivering skills, and the rest are off on craft or other projects. In short, we are all are not only "breathin in and out reglar," but also "sittin upright and taking solids." Good to hear from you. Sparks Lee Teter wrote: > February 15, 2004 > Hello. I haven't heard anything for about three days, I'm wondering if > I'm still hooked in. Our sever was down for about 24 hours. > Lee > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html> - --------------090604030602080808060805 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body> Lee, We're here! Some of us are hunkered down w/ our Sweethearts, some are no doubt perfecting their shivering skills, and the rest are off on craft or other projects. In short, we are all are not only "breathin in and out reglar," but also "sittin upright and taking solids." Good to hear from you. Sparks Lee Teter wrote: <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid20040216021119.19920.qmail@web21403.mail.yahoo.com"> <div>February 15, 2004</div> <div>Hello. I haven't heard anything for about three days, I'm wondering if I'm still hooked in. Our sever was down for about 24 hours. </div> <div>Lee</div> <hr size="1"> Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a> </blockquote> </body> </html> - --------------090604030602080808060805-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1315 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.