Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
The tragic flaw of the bison is that it is so tasty.
B'st'rd (my little contribution to the learned discourse)
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:22:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Teter <leeteter@yahoo.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo
- --0-2077815024-1076952166=:2990
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?
Lee Teter
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
- --0-2077815024-1076952166=:2990
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<DIV>I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter</DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a>
- --0-2077815024-1076952166=:2990--
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:44:24 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
- --part1_db.388adc8.2d625b78_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 2/16/04 7:02:03 AM, leeteter@yahoo.com writes:
> by=A0those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where it ca=
n=20
> be read.
>=20
Oddly enough, it took me several attempts to find the book at Amazon. Using=20
anything with "buffalo" in it (including the title) wouldn't take me there.=20=
I=20
finally found it with just using the authors name.
Anyway.... I ordered the book and after having wiped out the herd in Wallace=
your refund fast by filing online</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C3F487.7494B190--
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:51:59 -0800 (PST)
From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo
- --0-1304442086-1076964719=:52527
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Lee
Angela Gottfred opened a Yahoo Groups for this list and there is an area for posting files.
You will have to ask her how to get to it.
I forgot how I "enrolled", but it's there.
grn
A file we can open or not should be fine in 7 pages. You can also have someone with a web page provide a link to it.
Capt. L
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Teter
Subject: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo
I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?
Lee Teter
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
- --0-1304442086-1076964719=:52527
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<DIV>Lee</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Angela Gottfred opened a Yahoo Groups for this list and there is an area for posting files.</DIV>
<DIV> You will have to ask her how to get to it.</DIV>
<DIV> I forgot how I "enrolled", but it's there.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2>A file we can open or not should be fine in 7 pages. You can also have someone with a web page provide a link to it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter</DIV>
<P>
<HR SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Finance: <A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > <br>Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.<p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a>
- --0-1304442086-1076964719=:52527--
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
<DIV>I was reading again in Osborn Russel or James Clymans book =
(I'm kind=20
of got them both going at the same time and don't have either one =
here with=20
me) when he bailed out of the boat on the way up the river when =
they were=20
attacked by Arikeras. He had is rifle in his belt and it was =
pulling him=20
under and he had a hard time getting out of that mess. He also had =
to let=20
go of his "pistols" as I recalled it saying. I was wondering=20
if anyone might know if there is any indication of what kind =
of=20
pistols those might have been?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Monte Holder</DIV>
<DIV>Saline County Missouri</DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_02E9_01C3F4A0.95A0E480--
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:03:00 -0700
From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
>
>
> Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> wrote:
> The native population did have a significant effect on the
> population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were
> driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in
> separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the
> missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.
>
> Just some thoughts,
>
> Joe Brandl
>
> ________________
>
> Joe,
>
> The horse was the change that made Indian impact on buffalo most profound. The
> horse allowed tribes to make buffalo hunting, and living on the plains, a full
> time occupation. Millions of horses acquired by tribes, were kept with them on
> the plains in prime water and grass areas, using up resources buffalo needed.
> The pressure on the buffalo came from many directions.
>
> Indian culture changed because of the horse (remember the Sioux and many other
> "plains tribes" were mostly woodland Indians before the horse). When the
> culture became so "buffalo focused" it left behind many saftey nets, such as
> their agriculture and ancient social saftey nets.
>
> There is no doubt industrial North America finished off the buffalo
> efficiently. The point unnoticed for so long, has been that hunting practices
> by Native Americans were pushing the buffalo to extinction and would have,
> even if the hide hunters never came West. The robe trade was hard on females
> because their hide was best for robes. Males don't carry calves, so the
> reproduction base was greatly harmed. By the time the first buffalo was killed
> to make leather belting, the buffalo had declined to a point that inter-tribal
> war was a problem as tribes fought over the remaining herds.
>
>
>
> Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
Good points Lee, but summer habitat has never been a problem for any
wildlife in the history of the North American. I agree that the horse
changed several Indian tribes from agriculture to full time hunting, but I
have found no evidence that the Indian hunting practices were pushing the
buffalo to extinction. I do believe that they killed a lot of buffalo
needlessly and left much to rot on the plains, that is well documented. But
blizzards, floods and fire killed more then the entire plains indians ever
could in one year. Intertribal wars increased during the mid 1800's not
because of hunting territory but rather look at the close proximity of the
tribes from the early 1800's to the mid 1800's. Trade with the whites was
contested more often then buffalo hunting was.
Just some thoughts
joe
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:08:34 -0700
From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Brandl" <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 8:57 PM
>
>
>
>> I have read most every book on the hunting of the bison and spent 4 years
>> giving lectures. My thoughts are that once it was discovered that bison
>> could replace cow belting leather for the factorys, we were in the
>> industrial age by 1872, the US, Germany, and England needed leather
> belting
>> and the population of cows avaliable for leather decreased at this time.
>> Given the number of bison that froze to death, drowned, died in fires,
> added
>> to the number of bison killed for leather robes, (check the numbers at the
>> hide collection yards) more people moving west via railroad and needing
>> food, bison needed to feed the rail workders, etc, the population had to
>> decrease. The native population did have a significant effect on the
>> population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers
> were
>> driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in
>> separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the
>> missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.
>>
>> Just some thoughts,
>>
>> Joe Brandl
>
> Joe
> Just some questions that your thoughts bring up.
>
> Have you ever tried to drive a buffalo off a cliff? In Utah today they have
> buffalo drives on Antelope Island and most of the work is done by helocoptor
> since horseman even in large number who have experience with cattle are
> often unable to handle bison. I am not saying it did not happen but that I
> firmly believe that its importance in tribal food and buffalo destruction is
> highly over estimated. As Lee pointed out many of the tribes that we think
> of as plains Indians were actually from the woodlands or rivers
> (semi-agricultural) who only used buffalo as a food source for a couple
> months a year at most. The horse changed that big time, moving them on the
> plains as hunters year round.
>
> About 1872 would be the heart of the Texas cowboy's drive to fame. I would
> think that cattle would be more available not less. Even Africa was
> becoming a better exporter about that time if I understand it.
>
> No one questions that buffalo were hunted to supply belt leather, food for
> immigrants, sport, etc but this is being seen as simply not the great
> single factor in their destruction that it is played up to be.
>
> Wynn Ormond
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Again, look at the records of hides purchased during a ten year period from
1865 to 1875. Read the journals from travelers out west. You will see that
this was the largest exodus of buffalo from the plains. In 1872, their was
not as many cattle on the plains yet, not until the 1880s. As for running
buffalo over cliff, what explains the millions of buffalo found at hundreds
of sites from canada to texas, dated after 1800. And noted by the evidence
of metal tools used on the bones. Running buffalo today compared to earlier
years is far difference.
joe
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:30:02 -0700
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bison belts--point of clarificationi
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I have heard in this discussion that the leather "belts" propelled us
into the industrial revolution. And there is a lot of talk about using
bison for "belt leather."
I believe the main reference refers to using bison leather as drive
belts. Like the one that works a fan belt, but much bigger so it can
move circular saw blades in saw mills...and spin lots and lots of
equipment in cotton mills, grain mills, etc.
In addition, I am sure they went into staps and bellts, too...maybe even
into shoes.
Sparks
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:57:13 -0700
From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bison belts--point of clarificationi
> Correct me if I'm wrong.
> I have heard in this discussion that the leather "belts" propelled us
> into the industrial revolution. And there is a lot of talk about using
> bison for "belt leather."
>
> I believe the main reference refers to using bison leather as drive
> belts. Like the one that works a fan belt, but much bigger so it can
> move circular saw blades in saw mills...and spin lots and lots of
> equipment in cotton mills, grain mills, etc.
>
> In addition, I am sure they went into staps and bellts, too...maybe even
> into shoes.
>
> Sparks
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Understand, if you read about the industry revolution, realize how much
drive belting it took to run these factorys. A german tanner is credited
with creating a latigo belting from buffalo. Also there are numerous
drawings and photos showing the expansive drive systems that ran the
equipment.
joe
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:01:39 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Safety Pins
Dear List,
On a less serious note.
When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
use? Did the MM have and use them.
I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
Does anyone know.
bb
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:18:56 -0700
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins
Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in
1849. .
Sparks
beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:
>Dear List,
> On a less serious note.
> When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
>use? Did the MM have and use them.
> I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
> Does anyone know.
> bb
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:23:48 -0700
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins
Before the invention of the safety pin, straight pins were used...a lot!
Walter must have gotten real real tired of getting poked.
Also, Hunt is credited with inventing a forerunner of the Winchester
repeating rifle...in 1834.
Sparks
James and Sue Stone wrote:
> Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in
> 1849. . Sparks
>
> beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>> On a less serious note.
>> When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
>> use? Did the MM have and use them.
>> I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
>> Does anyone know.
>> bb
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:18:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Nathan Boyer <larpenteaur@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins
- --0-1720804749-1077052721=:48700
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hey Sparks,
Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????
Sorry
Nate.
James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in
1849. .
Sparks
beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:
>Dear List,
> On a less serious note.
> When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
>use? Did the MM have and use them.
> I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
> Does anyone know.
> bb
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
- --0-1720804749-1077052721=:48700
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<DIV>Hey Sparks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sorry</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nate.<BR><BR><B><I>James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in <BR>1849. . <BR>Sparks<BR><BR>beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:<BR><BR>>Dear List,<BR>> On a less serious note.<BR>> When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday<BR>>use? Did the MM have and use them.<BR>> I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?<BR>> Does anyone know.<BR>> bb<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</BLOCKQUOTE><p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a>
- --0-1720804749-1077052721=:48700--
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
<DIV>Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sorry</DIV>
<DIV>grn</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > <br>Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.<p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a>
- --0-271479676-1077060232=:82368--
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
End of hist_text-digest V1 #1317
********************************
-
To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"majordomo@xmission.com"
with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.
