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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, October 14 2003      Volume 01 : Number 1252



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory
-áááááá MtMan-List: large horns.....off topic
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory
-áááááá MtMan-List: gorges

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:03:43 -0500
From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots

I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they get
tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to do
that, I would appreciate the assistance.

Monte Holder
Missouri, Saline County


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:07:43 -0500
From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots

Monte,

Rather easy to do, but instead of trying to explain it, if you will get me
your mailing address, I will send you a sheet that details that technique
together with other "period" fishing knots.

Regards,

Paul

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 12:03 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots


> I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they get
> tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to do
> that, I would appreciate the assistance.
>
> Monte Holder
> Missouri, Saline County
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:30:56 -0600
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots

Dear Monte,

There's a knot called a "nail knot" that fly fishermen use to tie a leader
to fly line. Years ago, before eyes on fishhooks were common, the nail knot
was also used to tie metal hooks on lines. I've often used it myself to tie
two pieces of line together. The knot is too difficult to describe but
you'll find a diagram of it in almost any book on fishing tackle, sailors'
knots, or--probably--even the Boy Scout Manual. Try a web search for "nail
knot" and you should come up with a site that has a diagram. Hope this
helps.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:03 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots


> I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they get
> tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to do
> that, I would appreciate the assistance.
>
> Monte Holder
> Missouri, Saline County
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:07:52 -0500
From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots

Thanks for the advise, I have heard of the nail knot, have several booklets
on knots, but none here at school.  I will give the search a try, I saw
somewhere along the line how to make hooks like that out of nails, but now
can't remember where.  Ain't aging wonderful?

Monte Holder
Missouri, Saline Co
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots


> Dear Monte,
>
> There's a knot called a "nail knot" that fly fishermen use to tie a leader
> to fly line. Years ago, before eyes on fishhooks were common, the nail
knot
> was also used to tie metal hooks on lines. ........Try a web search for
"nail
> knot" and you should come up with a site that has a diagram. Hope this
> helps.
>
> John
>
> Dr. John L. Allen
> 2703 Leslie Court
> Laramie, WY 82072-2979
> Phone: [phone]
> e-mail: [e-mail]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:03 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
>
>
> > I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they get
> > tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to do
> > that, I would appreciate the assistance.
> >
> > Monte Holder
> > Missouri, Saline County
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:17:41 -0700
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots

Monty,

There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require a
nail or similar tool. I think it is included in Paul's instruction manual
which you should send for. Very simple knot to tie with or without a eyed
hook. Oh, yea it does require that you follow directions and have at least
two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G> I'd
call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot that is
found on a pre-snelled hook. Basically if you can copy it keep in mind that
you don't need to pass the line through an eye as the knot will cinch up
fine against the shank and certainly will not pull off due to the flattened
end of the shank.

Capt. Lahti'


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots


> Thanks for the advise, I have heard of the nail knot, have several
booklets
> on knots, but none here at school.  I will give the search a try, I saw
> somewhere along the line how to make hooks like that out of nails, but now
> can't remember where.  Ain't aging wonderful?
>
> Monte Holder
> Missouri, Saline Co
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 6:30 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
>
>
> > Dear Monte,
> >
> > There's a knot called a "nail knot" that fly fishermen use to tie a
leader
> > to fly line. Years ago, before eyes on fishhooks were common, the nail
> knot
> > was also used to tie metal hooks on lines. ........Try a web search for
> "nail
> > knot" and you should come up with a site that has a diagram. Hope this
> > helps.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Dr. John L. Allen
> > 2703 Leslie Court
> > Laramie, WY 82072-2979
> > Phone: [phone]
> > e-mail: [e-mail]
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:03 AM
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
> >
> >
> > > I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they
get
> > > tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to
do
> > > that, I would appreciate the assistance.
> > >
> > > Monte Holder
> > > Missouri, Saline County
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:49:50 -0500
From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory

I don't  know about the fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  Now if
I could just remember where I saw those directions for making eyeless hooks
out of finish nails....  I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
section at the local Walmart but never bought any.

Monte HOlder
on the bluffs above the Blackwater
Saline COunty Missouri

>
> There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require a
> nail or similar tool. ......... Oh, yea it does require that you follow
directions and have at least
> two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G> I'd
> call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot that
is
> found on a pre-snelled hook.


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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:34:22 -0700
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory

Monte,

I'll bet you could find directions for some suitable knots doing a Google
search but if your impatient I'll test my communication skills and see if I
can walk you through it.

I like to start with the bend of the hook to my right and the shank to my
left, held horizontal and in thumb and fore finger of my left hand. Now what
I want to do is tie a knot on that shank so the leader trails off the end of
the shank to my left.

To start the knot: Think of a loop-d'-loop like in a kid's little car track
The line starts on the top of the shank at the bend (this is the end of the
leader though it can stick out over the bend an inch or so, just so it's not
too long) and then the line makes a loop up and towards the bend and then
back along the shank. With an eyed hook the line would go through the eye at
this point but we don't got no eye in the hook so it just lays along the top
of the shank and goes off to the left through your fingers and left hand so
its out of the way. Make it as long or as short as you want but that will be
your finished leader for that hook.

OK, we got the loop. And we are controlling that loop along with the hook
shank with our thumb and index finger. Now the trick part. You want that
loop big enough so you can get the first two fingers of your right hand
inside it easily. So the loop itself at this point might actually be a few
inches across, say maybe three or four inches. By spinning the loop in those
two right hand fingers your going to wrap just one leg of that loop around
the shank and with dexterous use of the odd finger in that loop your going
to keep the other leg of the loop along the shank.

It's natural for the bend facing leg of the loop to be kept along the shank
and the left leg going around both the shank and the right leg of the loop.
Got the picture of the motion? As you spin the loop with those two fingers
the index finger will easily keep the front leg laying along the shaft as
the middle finger brings the loop around the bend, point of the hook and the
short end of the leader.

In other words what you are doing is "Whipping" a hook shank instead of the
end of a rope or line or small stuff. But your doing it in one motion
instead of having a hidden loop that you would normally tuck the end of the
whipping through after several wraps around the rope and tucking it out of
the way by pulling on the other end. Maybe I shouldn't have offered that
analogy.

Well anyway if you wrap the loop around and let it form in the proper
direction, forward towards the bend, when your done you just tug on the
leader end and snug it up and it binds itself around the shank quite
handily. Might take a couple try's before you loose the leader and the knot
falls apart before you've taken a few wraps around the shank. Keep at it. If
it's not possible to understand these directions then we'll just have to
find a picture. <G>

Capt. Lahti'


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:49 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory


> I don't  know about the fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  Now
if
> I could just remember where I saw those directions for making eyeless
hooks
> out of finish nails....  I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
> section at the local Walmart but never bought any.
>
> Monte HOlder
> on the bluffs above the Blackwater
> Saline COunty Missouri
>
> >
> > There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require
a
> > nail or similar tool. ......... Oh, yea it does require that you follow
> directions and have at least
> > two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G>
I'd
> > call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot
that
> is
> > found on a pre-snelled hook.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:59:17 -0500
From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: large horns.....off topic

    To the ladies and gentlemen of the list......I have the horns taken from
one of my Scottish highland cows for sale. They are scrimshaw quality horns
and very large. The measurements for the right horn are 21 inches long by 8
and a half around at the base. The left side is an inch longer with the same
base measurement. I want 25.00 for each horn plus wahtever the shipping is
to get it to you. These horns still have their cores so they weigh about
three pounds each.
    Anyone that is interested can contact me off list for a picture.
Thanks for your time.     John







The Stitchin' Scotsman
100% Handsewn Elkhide garments
and moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:47:16 -0600
From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory

- --------------030707000605080302040405
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sound like you are describing a "nail knot?"
Sparks

roger lahti wrote:

>Monte,
>
>I'll bet you could find directions for some suitable knots doing a Google
>search but if your impatient I'll test my communication skills and see if I
>can walk you through it.
>
>I like to start with the bend of the hook to my right and the shank to my
>left, held horizontal and in thumb and fore finger of my left hand. Now what
>I want to do is tie a knot on that shank so the leader trails off the end of
>the shank to my left.
>
>To start the knot: Think of a loop-d'-loop like in a kid's little car track
>The line starts on the top of the shank at the bend (this is the end of the
>leader though it can stick out over the bend an inch or so, just so it's not
>too long) and then the line makes a loop up and towards the bend and then
>back along the shank. With an eyed hook the line would go through the eye at
>this point but we don't got no eye in the hook so it just lays along the top
>of the shank and goes off to the left through your fingers and left hand so
>its out of the way. Make it as long or as short as you want but that will be
>your finished leader for that hook.
>
>OK, we got the loop. And we are controlling that loop along with the hook
>shank with our thumb and index finger. Now the trick part. You want that
>loop big enough so you can get the first two fingers of your right hand
>inside it easily. So the loop itself at this point might actually be a few
>inches across, say maybe three or four inches. By spinning the loop in those
>two right hand fingers your going to wrap just one leg of that loop around
>the shank and with dexterous use of the odd finger in that loop your going
>to keep the other leg of the loop along the shank.
>
>It's natural for the bend facing leg of the loop to be kept along the shank
>and the left leg going around both the shank and the right leg of the loop.
>Got the picture of the motion? As you spin the loop with those two fingers
>the index finger will easily keep the front leg laying along the shaft as
>the middle finger brings the loop around the bend, point of the hook and the
>short end of the leader.
>
>In other words what you are doing is "Whipping" a hook shank instead of the
>end of a rope or line or small stuff. But your doing it in one motion
>instead of having a hidden loop that you would normally tuck the end of the
>whipping through after several wraps around the rope and tucking it out of
>the way by pulling on the other end. Maybe I shouldn't have offered that
>analogy.
>
>Well anyway if you wrap the loop around and let it form in the proper
>direction, forward towards the bend, when your done you just tug on the
>leader end and snug it up and it binds itself around the shank quite
>handily. Might take a couple try's before you loose the leader and the knot
>falls apart before you've taken a few wraps around the shank. Keep at it. If
>it's not possible to understand these directions then we'll just have to
>find a picture. <G>
>
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:49 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory
>
>
>
>
>>I don't  know about the fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  Now
>>
>>
>if
>
>
>>I could just remember where I saw those directions for making eyeless
>>
>>
>hooks
>
>
>>out of finish nails....  I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
>>section at the local Walmart but never bought any.
>>
>>Monte HOlder
>>on the bluffs above the Blackwater
>>Saline COunty Missouri
>>
>>
>>
>>>There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require
>>>
>>>
>a
>
>
>>>nail or similar tool. ......... Oh, yea it does require that you follow
>>>
>>>
>>directions and have at least
>>
>>
>>>two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G>
>>>
>>>
>I'd
>
>
>>>call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot
>>>
>>>
>that
>
>
>>is
>>
>>
>>>found on a pre-snelled hook.
>>>
>>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


- --------------030707000605080302040405
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
Sound like you are describing a "nail knot?"<br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
roger lahti wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid00ab01c392a3$50f0aaa0$e9037444@x2d1a5">
  <pre wrap="">Monte,

I'll bet you could find directions for some suitable knots doing a Google
search but if your impatient I'll test my communication skills and see if I
can walk you through it.

I like to start with the bend of the hook to my right and the shank to my
left, held horizontal and in thumb and fore finger of my left hand. Now what
I want to do is tie a knot on that shank so the leader trails off the end of
the shank to my left.

To start the knot: Think of a loop-d'-loop like in a kid's little car track
The line starts on the top of the shank at the bend (this is the end of the
leader though it can stick out over the bend an inch or so, just so it's not
too long) and then the line makes a loop up and towards the bend and then
back along the shank. With an eyed hook the line would go through the eye at
this point but we don't got no eye in the hook so it just lays along the top
of the shank and goes off to the left through your fingers and left hand so
its out of the way. Make it as long or as short as you want but that will be
your finished leader for that hook.

OK, we got the loop. And we are controlling that loop along with the hook
shank with our thumb and index finger. Now the trick part. You want that
loop big enough so you can get the first two fingers of your right hand
inside it easily. So the loop itself at this point might actually be a few
inches across, say maybe three or four inches. By spinning the loop in those
two right hand fingers your going to wrap just one leg of that loop around
the shank and with dexterous use of the odd finger in that loop your going
to keep the other leg of the loop along the shank.

It's natural for the bend facing leg of the loop to be kept along the shank
and the left leg going around both the shank and the right leg of the loop.
Got the picture of the motion? As you spin the loop with those two fingers
the index finger will easily keep the front leg laying along the shaft as
the middle finger brings the loop around the bend, point of the hook and the
short end of the leader.

In other words what you are doing is "Whipping" a hook shank instead of the
end of a rope or line or small stuff. But your doing it in one motion
instead of having a hidden loop that you would normally tuck the end of the
whipping through after several wraps around the rope and tucking it out of
the way by pulling on the other end. Maybe I shouldn't have offered that
analogy.

Well anyway if you wrap the loop around and let it form in the proper
direction, forward towards the bend, when your done you just tug on the
leader end and snug it up and it binds itself around the shank quite
handily. Might take a couple try's before you loose the leader and the knot
falls apart before you've taken a few wraps around the shank. Keep at it. If
it's not possible to understand these directions then we'll just have to
find a picture. <G>

Capt. Lahti'


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Monte Holder" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]></a>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:49 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory


  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">I don't  know about the fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  Now
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->if
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">I could just remember where I saw those directions for making eyeless
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->hooks
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">out of finish nails....  I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
section at the local Walmart but never bought any.

Monte HOlder
on the bluffs above the Blackwater
Saline COunty Missouri

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->a
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">nail or similar tool. ......... Oh, yea it does require that you follow
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">directions and have at least
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G>
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->I'd
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->that
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">is
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">found on a pre-snelled hook.
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">
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    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->

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  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

- --------------030707000605080302040405--


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:55:54 -0600
From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: gorges

- --------------050909090506070600050304
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I believe another kind of 'hook' all together is the gorge.  Gorges are
pointed sticks or pieces of bone, ivory or whatever sharpened on both
ends and tied along a groove in the center (imagine a carrot pointed on
both ends and tied around the middle).  I'm not sure where in the world
these were used.  But they certainly don't have "eyes" and catch fish.
 Any one I ever imagined making was way too big for the fish available
to be caught.
sparks

Paul Jones wrote:

>Hello Sam,
>
>Good to hear from you and to see your question.
>
>First, what is your specific documentation that eyed fish hooks "were being
>manufactured in England from 1667?" I reviewed the web-site you set out
>below and did not see that representation, but perhaps I either missed it or
>you have another reference.
>
>Second, while eyed hooks were certainly known to fisherman for many hundreds
>of years before 1667, they were not commonly manufactured or available, due,
>in the main, to the poor quality of the metallurgy of the time.  In fact,
>except for a frontpiece drawing reference on one early English tome (which
>may be the reference to which you are referring), which appears to have one
>of the drawings of a fly tied on what seems to be an eyed hook, and a later
>French reference to at least one example of the manufacture of eyed hooks in
>the 1700's---and also some eyed hooks, probably French, found at early sites
>in Canada), I have found no reference to the use of eyed hooks (by "modern
>fishermen) until the mid-1800's when the first patent applications for such
>were filed.  It appears that it was after 1850 that they were commercially
>available in any quantity, and really it was not until after the Civil war
>that you see them advertised.  Even then, the eyeless (blind-eye or flats)
>were still far and away the most popular styles, as they were well known,
>easy to use and did not suffer the many defects found, even by that date, in
>the finishing process of hook manufacture.
>
>As to their use in the Rockies, I have yet to find any reference to the use
>of an eyed hook, but certainly a pin or some bit of metal could have been
>modified to make an eyed hook.  However, commercially, they do not appear on
>any trade ledger or publication.  That being said, I would strongly argue
>that the use of eyed hooks to reenact fur trade fishing would be inaccurate.
>They were not being sold by any major producer during that era and there is
>no reference to their use in the Rockies as noted above.
>
>By the way, your reference to Kirby was of merit, as he really had the hook
>market to himself for many years because of the high quality of his hooks.
>But he did not advertise, ever, eyed hooks, and he was a master of stealing
>a march on his competition, so I would respectfully suggest that had eyed
>hooks been commonplace enough to the subject of  mass production or
>widespread use, you would have seen it and heard it from him.
>
>Look forward to hearing from you.
>
>Regards,
>
>Paul
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Samuel Keller" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks
>
>
>
>
>>Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
>>Mountains?
>>
>>I know that they were being manufactured in England
>>from 1667.
>>
>>"The first period of great improvement came about the
>>mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
>>were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
>>Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
>>tackle and methods of fishing.
>>
>>About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
>>loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
>>a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
>>hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
>>line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
>>means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
>>led to the invention of the reel.
>>
>>Experiments with material for the line led to the use
>>of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
>>in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
>>1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
>>for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
>>by Barker in 1667.
>>
>>Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
>>the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
>>Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
>>point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
>>his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
>>were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
>>by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
>>and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
>>around 1730."
>>
>>http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm
>>
>>Sam
>>
>>
>>__________________________________
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
>>http://shopping.yahoo.com
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


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I believe another kind of 'hook' all together is the gorge.  Gorges are pointed
sticks or pieces of bone, ivory or whatever sharpened on both ends and tied
along a groove in the center (imagine a carrot pointed on both ends and tied
around the middle).  I'm not sure where in the world these were used.  But
they certainly don't have "eyes" and catch fish.  Any one I ever imagined
making was way too big for the fish available to be caught.  <br>
sparks<br>
<br>
Paul Jones wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001801c391a7$f66843a0$4becdecf@pwj">
  <pre wrap="">Hello Sam,

Good to hear from you and to see your question.

First, what is your specific documentation that eyed fish hooks "were being
manufactured in England from 1667?" I reviewed the web-site you set out
below and did not see that representation, but perhaps I either missed it or
you have another reference.

Second, while eyed hooks were certainly known to fisherman for many hundreds
of years before 1667, they were not commonly manufactured or available, due,
in the main, to the poor quality of the metallurgy of the time.  In fact,
except for a frontpiece drawing reference on one early English tome (which
may be the reference to which you are referring), which appears to have one
of the drawings of a fly tied on what seems to be an eyed hook, and a later
French reference to at least one example of the manufacture of eyed hooks in
the 1700's---and also some eyed hooks, probably French, found at early sites
in Canada), I have found no reference to the use of eyed hooks (by "modern
fishermen) until the mid-1800's when the first patent applications for such
were filed.  It appears that it was after 1850 that they were commercially
available in any quantity, and really it was not until after the Civil war
that you see them advertised.  Even then, the eyeless (blind-eye or flats)
were still far and away the most popular styles, as they were well known,
easy to use and did not suffer the many defects found, even by that date, in
the finishing process of hook manufacture.

As to their use in the Rockies, I have yet to find any reference to the use
of an eyed hook, but certainly a pin or some bit of metal could have been
modified to make an eyed hook.  However, commercially, they do not appear on
any trade ledger or publication.  That being said, I would strongly argue
that the use of eyed hooks to reenact fur trade fishing would be inaccurate.
They were not being sold by any major producer during that era and there is
no reference to their use in the Rockies as noted above.

By the way, your reference to Kirby was of merit, as he really had the hook
market to himself for many years because of the high quality of his hooks.
But he did not advertise, ever, eyed hooks, and he was a master of stealing
a march on his competition, so I would respectfully suggest that had eyed
hooks been commonplace enough to the subject of  mass production or
widespread use, you would have seen it and heard it from him.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Paul


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel Keller" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]></a>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks


  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
Mountains?

I know that they were being manufactured in England
from 1667.

"The first period of great improvement came about the
mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
tackle and methods of fishing.

About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
led to the invention of the reel.

Experiments with material for the line led to the use
of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
by Barker in 1667.

Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
around 1730."

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm">http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm</a>

Sam


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://shopping.yahoo.com">http://shopping.yahoo.com</a>

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    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->


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</blockquote>
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