ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n1251

Internet Message Format | 2003-10-12 | 16KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1251
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest       Monday, October 13 2003       Volume 01 : Number 1251



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History
-áááááá MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:36:49 -0500
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fish Hooks
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks
-áááááá MtMan-List: Crow Moccasins
-áááááá MtMan-List: Primitive Cable TV
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:43:27 -0600 (MDT)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History

You'll see more of beaverboy than he wants to be seen! You might also see
Vince in this show too!
    Sincerely,
        Long live Rock & Roll!
               Beaverboy




> List,
>   If you watch closely to one of the commercials you can catch a glimpse
> of, red shirted, Beaverboy carrying a beaver!
>
> Vince
> --
>
> --------- Original Message ---------
>
> DATE: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:56:49
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Cc:
>
>>Dear List,
>>          IÆve been hearing the advertising for the History ChannelÆs new
>>fall show ôExtreme Historyö on the radio. It stars rock legend
>>Roger Daltrey. A preview of the show is on Sunday night I
>>believe.
>>         You might want to watch it as it should be good. Many volunteer
>>members of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard here in Great Falls,
>>Montana myself included worked with Roger on the episode about
>>L&C.
>>         I found Roger to be a very charming, intelligent, funny and just
>>an all around great guy. He is also tough as nails and very down
>>to earth. He hunts on his farm in England where he also raises
>>trout. He helped skin a beaver and is a natural with a knife.
>>           He fired my fusee and is a good shot as well.
>>          I donÆt even get the History Channel so will have to watch it
>> on
>>tape sometime, maybe. And I donÆt mind waiting, I hate seeing
>>myself on TV or even in photoÆs anyway.
>>         I hope you all enjoy the show.
>>                          BB
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail!
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:43:27 -0600 (MDT)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History

You'll see more of beaverboy than he wants to be seen! You might also see
Vince in this show too!
    Sincerely,
        Long live Rock & Roll!
               Beaverboy




> List,
>   If you watch closely to one of the commercials you can catch a glimpse
> of, red shirted, Beaverboy carrying a beaver!
>
> Vince
> --
>
> --------- Original Message ---------
>
> DATE: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:56:49
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Cc:
>
>>Dear List,
>>          IÆve been hearing the advertising for the History ChannelÆs new
>>fall show ôExtreme Historyö on the radio. It stars rock legend
>>Roger Daltrey. A preview of the show is on Sunday night I
>>believe.
>>         You might want to watch it as it should be good. Many volunteer
>>members of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard here in Great Falls,
>>Montana myself included worked with Roger on the episode about
>>L&C.
>>         I found Roger to be a very charming, intelligent, funny and just
>>an all around great guy. He is also tough as nails and very down
>>to earth. He hunts on his farm in England where he also raises
>>trout. He helped skin a beaver and is a natural with a knife.
>>           He fired my fusee and is a good shot as well.
>>          I donÆt even get the History Channel so will have to watch it
>> on
>>tape sometime, maybe. And I donÆt mind waiting, I hate seeing
>>myself on TV or even in photoÆs anyway.
>>         I hope you all enjoy the show.
>>                          BB
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail!
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:44:14 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:36:49 -0500

test



Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:54:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Samuel Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks

Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
Mountains?

I know that they were being manufactured in England
from 1667.

"The first period of great improvement came about the
mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
tackle and methods of fishing.

About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
led to the invention of the reel.

Experiments with material for the line led to the use
of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
by Barker in 1667.

Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
around 1730."

http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm

Sam


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:18:01 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks

Sam
I have heard several men who are very well versed in primitive fishing
equipment state flatly that eyed fishhooks are not documented to have been
used in the Rocky Mountains during the rendezvous period.   Maybe there are
others with different information.
Lanney

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel Keller" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks


> Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
> Mountains?
>
> I know that they were being manufactured in England
> from 1667.
>
> "The first period of great improvement came about the
> mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
> were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
> Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
> tackle and methods of fishing.
>
> About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
> loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
> a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
> hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
> line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
> means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
> led to the invention of the reel.
>
> Experiments with material for the line led to the use
> of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
> in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
> 1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
> for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
> by Barker in 1667.
>
> Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
> the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
> Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
> point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
> his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
> were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
> by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
> and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
> around 1730."
>
> http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm
>
> Sam
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:16:01 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Crow Moccasins

Hello the Camp
I have a friend that is interested in purchasing moccasins made in a style
and decoration of the 1820-1830 Crow. Any suggestions?
Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:37:00 -0600 (MDT)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Primitive Cable TV

   Cable TV has many advantages over regular TV, mainly less garbage to
watch.
   Just this last Wednesday, there was a show on the Discovery Channel
about the Donner Party. Mark Baker was in it and I think he did a fine
job of it too! I got to meet Mark at the Western National Rendezvous at
Polebridge Montana, a few years ago, and he seemed to be a genuinely
nice guy. He was very polite and allowed me to have a photo taken of us
in his camp. I've enjoyed his articles in the Muzzleloader even more
since meeting him.
   Then tonight,again on the Discovery Channel, on the show Mythbusters
they tried to reenact the old barrel full of bricks being hauled up a
pulley routine. Anyway, they tried 3 times at dropping a large (50 gal)
oak barrel from 30' filled with 500 pounds of bricks. It did not break
after 3 drops until they weakened it by removing some of the steel
bands!
   Just goes to show you, they don't build anything much better than they
used 200 years ago!
   bb

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:35:04 -0500
From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks

Hello Sam,

Good to hear from you and to see your question.

First, what is your specific documentation that eyed fish hooks "were being
manufactured in England from 1667?" I reviewed the web-site you set out
below and did not see that representation, but perhaps I either missed it or
you have another reference.

Second, while eyed hooks were certainly known to fisherman for many hundreds
of years before 1667, they were not commonly manufactured or available, due,
in the main, to the poor quality of the metallurgy of the time.  In fact,
except for a frontpiece drawing reference on one early English tome (which
may be the reference to which you are referring), which appears to have one
of the drawings of a fly tied on what seems to be an eyed hook, and a later
French reference to at least one example of the manufacture of eyed hooks in
the 1700's---and also some eyed hooks, probably French, found at early sites
in Canada), I have found no reference to the use of eyed hooks (by "modern
fishermen) until the mid-1800's when the first patent applications for such
were filed.  It appears that it was after 1850 that they were commercially
available in any quantity, and really it was not until after the Civil war
that you see them advertised.  Even then, the eyeless (blind-eye or flats)
were still far and away the most popular styles, as they were well known,
easy to use and did not suffer the many defects found, even by that date, in
the finishing process of hook manufacture.

As to their use in the Rockies, I have yet to find any reference to the use
of an eyed hook, but certainly a pin or some bit of metal could have been
modified to make an eyed hook.  However, commercially, they do not appear on
any trade ledger or publication.  That being said, I would strongly argue
that the use of eyed hooks to reenact fur trade fishing would be inaccurate.
They were not being sold by any major producer during that era and there is
no reference to their use in the Rockies as noted above.

By the way, your reference to Kirby was of merit, as he really had the hook
market to himself for many years because of the high quality of his hooks.
But he did not advertise, ever, eyed hooks, and he was a master of stealing
a march on his competition, so I would respectfully suggest that had eyed
hooks been commonplace enough to the subject of  mass production or
widespread use, you would have seen it and heard it from him.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Paul


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel Keller" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks


> Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
> Mountains?
>
> I know that they were being manufactured in England
> from 1667.
>
> "The first period of great improvement came about the
> mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
> were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
> Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
> tackle and methods of fishing.
>
> About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
> loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
> a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
> hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
> line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
> means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
> led to the invention of the reel.
>
> Experiments with material for the line led to the use
> of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
> in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
> 1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
> for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
> by Barker in 1667.
>
> Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
> the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
> Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
> point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
> his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
> were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
> by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
> and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
> around 1730."
>
> http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm
>
> Sam
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #1251
********************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.