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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1237
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Wednesday, September 10 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1237
In this issue:
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
-áááááá MtMan-List: chiggers
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
-áááááá MtMan-List: AMM on-line auction
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
-áááááá MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:54:03 EDT
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
- --part1_34.3edfb41d.2c90248b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Wynn
In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to
trade for horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican
saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all
that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground seats
and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They Saddled The
West"
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to
me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me the
pictures.
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not
done some homework be for making there saddles.
Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their
saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortable
bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I do so
they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot
>
>
- --part1_34.3edfb41d.2c90248b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2> Wynn</FONT><FONT COLOR=
=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>
<BR>In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis=20=
to trade for horses.
<BR>Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexi=
can saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be=20=
all that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the gro=
und seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They Sa=
ddled The West"
<BR>There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like=
to me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who s=
ent me the pictures.
<BR>I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have no=
t done some homework be for making there saddles.
<BR> Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over=20=
their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?
<BR>For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfort=
able bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then=20=
I do so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.=20
<BR>See on the trail
<BR>Crazy Cyot
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN=
- -LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_34.3edfb41d.2c90248b_boundary--
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:12:54 -0500
From: "Frank Fusco" <Rifleman1776@cox-internet.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: chiggers
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I have a small farm and wear shorts all summer. Chiggers are a big =
part of my summer farming 'experience'. While most of the commercial =
repellants do work all right, the problem is remembering to use them.
I collect a lot of chiggers and have learned to just suffer it =
through until cool weather.
But there is another solution. I'm selling the farm.
Frank
- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C37773.560D1C30
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> I have a small farm and wear shorts all summer. =
Chiggers=20
are a big part of my summer farming 'experience'. While most of the =
commercial=20
repellants do work all right, the problem is remembering to use =
them.</DIV>
<DIV> I collect a lot of chiggers and have learned to =
just=20
suffer it through until cool weather.</DIV>
<DIV> But there is another solution. I'm selling the=20
farm.</DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C37773.560D1C30--
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:55:58 -0600
From: Ole Jensen <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
- --MS_Mac_OE_3146025358_89272_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Crazy,
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style
saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged)
from Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis
Ole
Wynn
In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to
trade for horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican
saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all
that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground
seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They
Saddled The West"
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to
me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me
the pictures.
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not
done some homework be for making there saddles.
Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their
saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortable
bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I do
so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot
- --MS_Mac_OE_3146025358_89272_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
Crazy,<BR>
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style s=
addles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) f=
rom Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis<BR>
Ole<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"> Wynn</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> <BR>
<BR>
In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to =
trade for horses. <BR>
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican=
saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all=
that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground=
seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They =
Saddled The West" <BR>
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to=
me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who=
sent me the pictures. <BR>
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not d=
one some homework be for making there saddles. <BR>
Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over the=
ir saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already? <BR>
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortabl=
e bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I d=
o so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also. <BR>
See on the trail <BR>
Crazy Cyot <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>
- --MS_Mac_OE_3146025358_89272_MIME_Part--
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Hawk,
Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that
permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what
they say and what others testify to, the stuff works.
Capt. L
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <hawknest4@juno.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
> cpt L
> seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for
> deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed
> ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i
> washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered
> with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year
> here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick
> grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what
> we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed
> cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny
> buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers---
>
>
> "Hawk"
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:41:44 -0500
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Back about '78 I acquired a set of saddle bags from Tater who got them from
Tom Wright(?) of Ohio Village who researched and reproduced them down to
the number of stitches per inch as 1812 Dragoon Saddle Bags. They are
large and commodious and still serve me well.
I do think self-made trap sacks/market wallets/colonial wallets of canvas,
linen and various leather in a variety of sizes were much more common than
what we consider "saddle bags".
John...
If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
john <kramer@kramerize.com>
Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit of the
American Mountain Men
http://amm-auction.com/
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:57:17 -0600
From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C37792.AE5D8180
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Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle BagsDon't mis-quote me to say the Spanish =
saddles were not available. They obviously were. But both saddles =
articles in the B of B claim that flat saddles were much more common. =
Did we have one on our rack? I have talked to Lious and others who have =
told me that Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great deal of research =
behind his saddles. That is not to pick on him but to say that it was =
not his forte. He build saddles, with the time I spend arguing on the =
intenet.
The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is clearly an artists drawing of =
a saddle. The signiture looks more like the kind you see on modern =
drawings. I will have to do more research but if you are putting =
together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to =
illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some. The drawings show =
buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinches. I =
find it hard to believe these were period and in common practise. This =
is just my speculation. Perhaps they are historical drawings but I have =
my doubts. Even in these drawing I do not see half seats. =20
Using the spot between your ass and the saddle for a storage unit for =
bedding is possible, Crazy but I think your stretching it. The more =
time they spent setting a horse the less padding they probably used. =20
Bottom line -- You can't put taps, western stirrups or half seats in the =
mountains and there is a perfectly acceptable alternatives you can.
Wynn =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ole Jensen=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Crazy,
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish =
style saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles =
(fully riged) from Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis
Ole
Wynn=20
In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi =
Shoshonis to trade for horses.=20
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them =
Mexican saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would =
not be all that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same =
for the ground seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In =
the Book "They Saddled The West"=20
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks =
like to me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson =
who sent me the pictures.=20
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt =
have not done some homework be for making there saddles.=20
Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over =
their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already? =20
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more =
comfortable bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the =
saddle then I do so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.=20
See on the trail=20
Crazy Cyot=20
- ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C37792.AE5D8180
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don't mis-quote me to say the Spanish =
saddles were=20
not available. They obviously were. But both saddles =
articles in the=20
B of B claim that flat saddles were much more common. Did we =
have=20
one on our rack? I have talked to Lious and others who have told =
me that=20
Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great deal of research behind his=20
saddles. That is not to pick on him but to say that it was not his =
forte. He build saddles, with the time I spend arguing on the=20
intenet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The picture that Crazy forwarded to me =
is clearly=20
an artists drawing of a saddle. The signiture looks more like the =
kind you=20
see on modern drawings. I will have to do more research but if you =
are=20
putting together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to=20
illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some. The drawings =
show=20
buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinches. =
I find=20
it hard to believe these were period and in common practise. This =
is just=20
my speculation. Perhaps they are historical drawings but I have my =
doubts. Even in these drawing I do not see half=20
seats. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Using the spot between your ass =
and=20
the saddle for a storage unit for bedding is possible, Crazy but I =
think=20
your stretching it. The more time they spent setting a horse the =
less=20
padding they probably used. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bottom line -- You can't put taps, =
western stirrups=20
or half seats in the mountains and there is a perfectly acceptable =
alternatives=20
you can.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dolebjensen@earthlink.net =
href=3D"mailto:olebjensen@earthlink.net">Ole=20
Jensen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, =
2003 7:55=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Fw: =
Saddle=20
Bags</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>Crazy,<BR>You are right on! Man Made Mobile =
also=20
documents the use of spanish style saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. =
purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) from Grimsley Saddle Co. in =
St.=20
Louis<BR>Ole<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2>Wynn</FONT><FONT face=3DArial> <BR><BR>In =
Lewis and=20
Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to trade =
for=20
horses. <BR>Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it =
seems=20
them Mexican saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. =
So I=20
would not be all that quick to rule out their use here in the =
mountains.=20
Same for the ground seats and tapaderos for they were in use back =
then. In=20
the Book "They Saddled The West" <BR>There is a picture of a Spanish =
saddle=20
ca. 1800 that has what looks like to me to be Monkey Face =
tapaderos on=20
it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me the pictures. <BR>I =
would not be=20
to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not done some =
homework be for making there saddles. <BR> Why would all those=20
mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they =
had a=20
nice comfy leather seat already? <BR>For the same reason I put =
a lot=20
under my saddle makes for a more comfortable bed at night. I guess =
they=20
spent a little more time in the saddle then I do so they wanted a =
more=20
comfortable seat to sit on also. <BR>See on the trail <BR>Crazy Cyot =
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D2><BR></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
=
size=3D2><BR><BR></FONT></FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY><=
/HTML>
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- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:57:58 -0700
From: dnelson <dnelson@wizzards.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Wynn Ormond wrote:
> The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is clearly an artists drawing
> of a saddle. The signiture looks more like the kind you see on modern
> drawings. I will have to do more research but if you are putting
> together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to
> illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some. The drawings
> show buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back
> cinches. I find it hard to believe these were period and in common
> practise. This is just my speculation. Perhaps they are historical
> drawings but I have my doubts. Even in these drawing I do not see
> half seats.
The drawing that you are talking about was done by G. R. Vernam, one of
the authors of the book They Saddle the West. Drawings are used by used
both anthropologists and archaeologists because they show better what
they are trying to show than a photo can. Archaeologists draw the
recovered artifacts, not for you and me to look at, but so other
researchers can see the artifact better. The Smithsonian book The Horse
in Blackfoot Indian Culture uses line drawing the same way that Vernam
used them in his book. Does that make the book of less value for
research. You said there are buckles on that saddle Vernam drew,
however I see no buckles on the saddle that is pictured. It's possible
to find lots more pictures (photos and or drawings) of Mexican saddles
if we must, but I think we all know what they look like. Were they used
widely. Lets see what the Smithsoinan has to say about that. The Horse
in Blackfoot Indian Culture on page 94, note number 52 regarding the
text. "Other Plains and Plateau tribes appear to have followed the
practice of using Spanish or American saddles whenever they could
procure them. Lewis and Clark found some Spanish saddles among the
Lemhi Shoshoni in 1805. (Coues, 1893, vol. 2 pp. 520, 569). Jacpues
d'Eglise reported "saddles ...... in Mexican style" used by the Mandan
in 1792 (Nasitir, 1927, p. 58). Scattered through the records of the
American Fur Co. (papers in the N. Y. Historical Society) are listings
of saddles bought by Pratte, Choutear and Co. of St. Louis. Sufficient
quantities are listed to indicate that the saddles were purchased for
the Indian trade and not merely for the use of field employees of the
company. Maximilian (1833) said that the Mandan 'sometimes obtain
saddles from the whites, which they line and ornament with red and blue
cloth' (Maximillian, 1906, vol. 23 p. 345). These may have been the
California saddle type, which Marcy termed the favorite of the mountain
men (Marcy, 1859, pp. 118-120), and which seems to have been pictured
in a number of Kurs' drawings of fur traders and a few Indians of the
Upper Missouri in 1851-52 (Kurtz 1937)." Ewers also says in the same
book on page 93 "We know the Piegan were familiar with Spanish saddles
at least as early as 1787, when David Thompson saw a number of saddles a
Piegan war party had brouight back from a raid on a Spanish party far to
the south (Thompson, 1916, p. 371). He goes on to say in the same book
that the Indians tried to adopt as much of the white man's saddlery as
they could afford. If they couldn't afford a trade saddle, perhaps
(Ewer's words, not mine) they could at least aquire strong, long wearing
trade materials for rigging their own native saddles. Hmmmmm. That
sounds like perhaps buckles and cinch rings and other metal objects as
well as comerical tanned riggin. As Gomer Pyle would say, "Gol---ly".
At anyrate, it took me a lot less time to find this information than it
did to type it out, so I don't intend to do it very often. From this
knowledge that I just aquired from the Smithsonian Bureau of American
Ethonology I have arrived at a humble opinion that there were quite a
few Spanish, Mexican and or California saddles in the mountains.
Furthermore, I would expect that there were also numbers of American
(flat, what we now call English) saddles there at the same time. So
there wouldn't be a thing wrong with riding a flat saddle with iron
stirrups, or as far as that goes, an Indian pad saddle with iron
stirrups. What about tapaderos? Well, I reckon that if Spanish/Mexican
saddles were made with any style of tapedero, I expect being connected
to the saddle they made it to the mountains also. That is, unless the
Smithsonian doesn't know what they are talking about, then all bets are
off. One more thing. Do you ride your horse with a bit, or a rope to
the jaw? What kind of a bit? I'd say bit and bridle styles could cause
more discussion than something as simple as taps or hooded stirrups.
Dale Nelson
Roseburg, OR
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:33:55 -0700
From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM on-line auction
Brothers, Take a look at the auction site. www.amm-auction.com Buck has
done some nice updating, and added some items to the Fall Auction. The
Summer auction closes in less than 48 hours. There is some nice plunder
there at reasonable prices. Check it out, post your bids right on the site.
After the auction closes, high bidders will be notified, and after a check
is sent I'll send the item to the high bidder. Check it out.!.!.! Yfab,
Randy
Randal Bublitz
rjbublitz@earthlink.net
"Life is short, paddle hard..."
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:32:41 -0600
From: Ole Jensen <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
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Wynn,
You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say.
Ole
Don't mis-quote me to say the Spanish saddles were not available. They
obviously were. But both saddles articles in the B of B claim that flat
saddles were much more common. Did we have one on our rack? I have talked
to Lious and others who have told me that Bob Schmitt did not claim to have
a great deal of research behind his saddles. That is not to pick on him but
to say that it was not his forte. He build saddles, with the time I spend
arguing on the intenet.
The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is clearly an artists drawing of a
saddle. The signiture looks more like the kind you see on modern drawings.
I will have to do more research but if you are putting together a book about
saddles and you can't find old drawing to illistrate your work you hire an
artist to draw some. The drawings show buckle type cinches and full rigged
saddles without back cinches. I find it hard to believe these were period
and in common practise. This is just my speculation. Perhaps they are
historical drawings but I have my doubts. Even in these drawing I do not
see half seats.
Using the spot between your ass and the saddle for a storage unit for
bedding is possible, Crazy but I think your stretching it. The more time
they spent setting a horse the less padding they probably used.
Bottom line -- You can't put taps, western stirrups or half seats in the
mountains and there is a perfectly acceptable alternatives you can.
Wynn
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ole Jensen <mailto:olebjensen@earthlink.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Crazy,
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style
saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged)
from Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis
Ole
Wynn
In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to
trade for horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican
saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all
that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground
seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They
Saddled The West"
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to
me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me
the pictures.
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not
done some homework be for making there saddles.
Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their
saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortable
bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I do
so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot
- --MS_Mac_OE_3146067162_63075_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
Wynn,<BR>
You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say.<BR>
Ole<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Don't mis-quote me to say the=
Spanish saddles were not available. They obviously were. But bo=
th saddles articles in the B of B claim that flat saddles were much mo=
re common. Did we have one on our rack? I have talked to Lious a=
nd others who have told me that Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great de=
al of research behind his saddles. That is not to pick on him but to s=
ay that it was not his forte. He build saddles, with the time I spend =
arguing on the intenet.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is=
clearly an artists drawing of a saddle. The signiture looks more like=
the kind you see on modern drawings. I will have to do more research =
but if you are putting together a book about saddles and you can't find old =
drawing to illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some. The d=
rawings show buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinche=
s. I find it hard to believe these were period and in common practise.=
This is just my speculation. Perhaps they are historical drawin=
gs but I have my doubts. Even in these drawing I do not see half seats=
. <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Using the spot between your ass and the s=
addle for a storage unit for bedding is possible, Crazy but I think your str=
etching it. The more time they spent setting a horse the less padding =
they probably used. <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Bottom line -- You can't put taps, wester=
n stirrups or half seats in the mountains and there is a perfectly acceptabl=
e alternatives you can.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Wynn <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> Ole Jensen <mailto:olebjensen@earthlink.net> <BR>
<B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:55 AM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags<BR>
<BR>
Crazy,<BR>
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style s=
addles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) f=
rom Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis<BR>
Ole<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Wynn</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> <BR>
<BR>
In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to =
trade for horses. <BR>
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican=
saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all=
that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground=
seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They =
Saddled The West" <BR>
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to=
me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who=
sent me the pictures. <BR>
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not d=
one some homework be for making there saddles. <BR>
Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their sad=
dles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already? <BR>
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortabl=
e bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I d=
o so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also. <BR>
See on the trail <BR>
Crazy Cyot <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:39:38 -0600
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
A lot of us in this sport also like good sporting dogs. I know
Newfoundland retrievers were around pre-1840, as Lewis and Clark brought
one with them (Seabisquit or Seaman?). One of my favorite stories from
the journals is when the dog made a water retrieve of a wouded deer that
went into the Missouri near Great Falls (MT). First thing the dog did
is drown the deer, then bring it to shore. HHHMmmm. Maybe a bigger one
would retrieve elk?
What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?" My golden
Retrievers don't fit, the breed wasn't invented until a number of dogs
were cross bred (at least once with bloodhounds) to result in the breed
being established in the late 1800s (1880 or so).
Maybe we need a skill test for dogs...like retrieving wounded deer from
rivers. By the way, Newfoundlands were bred to retrieve overboard
fisherman off the Grand Banks.
Sparks
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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:26:32 -0700
From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Sparks, I have a pair of Australian Cattle dogs. These dogs are also known
as heelers (red and blue). I have 2, bro and sis, one is a blue the other
a red. I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's
first meeting with the flathead indians'. [do a googler search for 'Father
desmet's.... and you'll see this pic] It show's an indian village with two
dogs in foreground. I'll be dipped if these dogs don't look just like my
two dogs. This is my documention for my dogs. Heelers were bred from
Dingo stock in Australia. I think many wild dogs have similar features,
etc... so my heelers look like the dogs Russel saw living with the
indians. My dogs have done a couple hundred miles of canoe trips, love to
camp with us, tend to stick close by, etc.... There is an australian
cattle dog web site too....check them out. Randy
>
> What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?"
>
> Sparks
>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Hawk,
Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that
permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what
they say and what others testify to, the stuff works.
Capt. L
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <hawknest4@juno.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
> cpt L
> seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for
> deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed
> ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i
> washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered
> with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year
> here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick
> grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what
> we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed
> cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny
> buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers---
>
>
> "Hawk"
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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