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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1173 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, March 25 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1173 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá MtMan-List: trading fears -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá RE: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass -áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass -áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:06:31 EST From: FSLark@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery - --part1_1e5.53201ea.2bb1ae57_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Htorr@aol.com writes: > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We > have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > near the lake There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall shape. Dog tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat tracks tend toward the opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the front end, on the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front. The last of the markers I look for is the toes. On a dog, they come out in a symetrical pattern. From the middl of the back of the pad draw an imaginary line out through the middle of the toe. There should be a nice pattern. On feline tracks, there will be no symmetry. A good book that will demonstrate these differences is by Dr. James Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North America. You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog tracks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. Frank - --part1_1e5.53201ea.2bb1ae57_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML>In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, Htorr@aol.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT= : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Can somebody verify the differe= nce between canine and feline tracks? We have this problem at our loca= l Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud near the lake</BLOCKQUOTE><= /FONT> There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall s= hape. Dog tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat=20= tracks tend toward the opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is=20= pointed at the front end, on the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the fr= ont. The last of the markers I look for is the toes. On a dog, t= hey come out in a symetrical pattern. From the middl of the back of th= e pad draw an imaginary line out through the middle of the toe. There=20= should be a nice pattern. On feline tracks, there will be no symmetry.= A good book that will demonstrate these differences is by Dr. J= ames Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North America.&n= bsp; You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog t= racks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before.<BR= > Frank</HTML> - --part1_1e5.53201ea.2bb1ae57_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 06:40:26 -0700 From: Mike Moore <amm1616@comcast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth I think that alot of information, even the everyday stuff is out there for us to find. I'm rereading "The Adventures of Captain Bonneville" and since the start of this discussion of char cloth I have seen two references to what was used to start fires. "....and had but a few charges of powder left, which it was necessary to husband for the purpose of lighting their fires." It was mid winter and looks like the group used gunpowder in some way to start them. P.244 "They frequently observed them (the Diggers) to be furnished with long ropes, twisted from the bark of wormwood (sage, I think). This they use as a slow match, carring it always lighted. Whenever they wished to warm themselves, they would gather together a little dry wormwood, apply the matach, and in an instant produce a cherring blaze. p. 225 Both of these entries, one for whites, one for natives shows how large number of ways are for firestrting. Some groups of Indians carried "fire horns", a horn filled with tinder and a glowing piece of charwood. It was the responsibility of one individual of the tribe to have ready to go when they moved from camp site to campsite. So they never were with out fire. While cloth is something that we find easy to find and use today, it may not have been the primary source in the past. I always check the bed of coals for a glowing ember before starting over the morning. A very practial and ecomonic example. And always replenish the tinder in my pouch while walking around, after making a fire. Things like search out pitch pine and other natural fire making needs are something which many forget to do. mike. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:50:33 EST From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery - --part1_1ea.504a31c.2bb1b8a9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, Thanks much. I was almost convinced that if there were claw marks it was a canine --- no claw marks and it was a feline. I keep learning. Sparky > >> Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We >> have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud >> near the lake > > > There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall shape. > Dog tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat tracks tend > toward the opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the > front end, on the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front. The last > of the markers I look for is the toes. On a dog, they come out in a > symetrical pattern. From the middl of the back of the pad draw an > imaginary line out through the middle of the toe. There should be a nice > pattern. On feline tracks, there will be no symmetry. A good book that > will demonstrate these differences is by Dr. James Halfpeny titled > something like Animal Tracks of North America. > > You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog > tracks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. > Frank - --part1_1ea.504a31c.2bb1b8a9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> Frank, Thanks much. I was almost convinc= ed that if there were claw marks it was a canine --- no claw marks and= it was a feline. I keep learning. Sparky <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT= : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style= =3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PAD= DING-LEFT: 5px">Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline= tracks? We have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see th= e tracks in the mud near the lake</BLOCKQUOTE> There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall s= hape. Dog tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat=20= tracks tend toward the opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is=20= pointed at the front end, on the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the fr= ont. The last of the markers I look for is the toes. On a dog, t= hey come out in a symetrical pattern. From the middl of the back of th= e pad draw an imaginary line out through the middle of the toe. There=20= should be a nice pattern. On feline tracks, there will be no symmetry.= A good book that will demonstrate these differences is by Dr. J= ames Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North America.&n= bsp; You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog t= racks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before.<BR= > Frank </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> - --part1_1ea.504a31c.2bb1b8a9_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:13:47 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: trading fears Even in the later trading period, after Laramie was built, trading was dangerous; if not to life and limb, at least to anything that wasn't tied down. The Sioux actually assigned Indian "soldiers" to protect the trader and his goods when he was working away from the fort during the Laramie years. The trader was a brave man but he was not a free man. All eyes were on him. Indians pretty much ran the show the way they wanted it (and if they had their way (some anyway) there would have been lots of whiskey). This is a very complex subject. In my opinion the trappers were their own tribe. They took precautions but went where they wanted to go if there were enough of them to defend the camp. I doubt they were afraid to gather fire starting material. A trader might have to get permission, or more likely just trade some needles or thread for firestarting material but a trapper didn't ask or pay if he didn't want to. Why, he even took beaver pelts without asking and killed the man who tried to stop him (if he wasn't too dead to get the other guy stopped). Yep, the trappers were their own tribe; one that the Indians had quite a bit of respect for and understood very well. Jim _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:19:42 -0700 From: "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth I haven't found any documentation for char cloth being used by voyageurs in the 1774-1821 era, either. But there's lots of documentation for voyageurs using fungus ("touchwood"). Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:31:04 -0800 From: "Curtis Krouse" <kc16@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Maybe so Capt'n, But on the upper Missouri, which is where most of the early trapping expeditions occurred, there isn't a whole lotta brush around until you get up toward the mouth of the Missouri. Respectfully, to your all's arguments for wandering around, remember....I was specifically referring to the early expeditions. A lot of those weren't even land based....rather by boat up the Missouri. With respect to over emphasizing the dangers of wandering around out of camp. I'm not saying that the early trappers were too scared to wander out of camp. I'm saying that there was a clear and present danger of doing so. There are a lot of supply lists that mention a large amount of tow and plain cotton. I found a compiled list of invoices from the superintendency at St. Louis of supplies furnished to the traders in 1831. The calicos and fancy cottons were in the amount of hundreds of yards. The common cotton was 13,850 yards. Which one could conclude that common cotton might have been used for things other than clothing because of the difference in the amount. They also don't mention tow at all on the invoices, even with the gun supplies, which means to me that they started using common cotton for things like cleaning rags, patches, char cloth and other camp necessities. Oh...and you all will love this....on that same list.....25 lbs. of fine seed beads. I know that this is sure to stir up controversy as I've heard for years from a lot of AMM bros that seed beads weren't traded until the late 1800's. Well....guess what....they were. Blood On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 21:45, roger lahti wrote: > Blood, > > I found plenty of punky birch wood less than 25' from my camp at Brigade up > on that island behind Boundary Dam. Gary Lentz finds all he needs to start a > fire with nothing but his knife within 200 yards of his residence at L/C St. > Park near Waitsburg (on the L/C trail). > > Respectfully I submit that you are placing too much emphases on the danger > of wandering around looking for ingredients when wandering around is how you > get to your next camp! > > Capt. Lahti > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:41:23 -0800 From: "Curtis Krouse" <kc16@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Yep....I agree. Many everyday things weren't documented. They were assumed to be common knowledge. It was the not so common everyday things that were documented. Which leads me to believe that char wood was not the most common way to start fires, but was a cool thing to learn and use in the wilderness. It would be the new things that they would document, not the everyday common things. For example, is there any documentation for any substance used to replace our common day toilet paper? I've never seen any mention of how they took care of that common everyday chore. But, we all can sure speculate. I think the entire question of "documentation" is a subject that we could discuss for years. Just exactly what would one put in their journals? I think that common knowledge items would not be mentioned at all. But, rather things that weren't so common. They were documenting exciting expeditions west, not everyday life. In my humble opinion, Blood On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 06:19, Angela Gottfred wrote: > I haven't found any documentation for char cloth being used by voyageurs > in the 1774-1821 era, either. But there's lots of documentation for > voyageurs using fungus ("touchwood"). > > Your very humble & most obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 11:01:25 -0500 From: "Punke, Michael W." <MPunke@mayerbrownrowe.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Speaking of Hugh Glass and maggots, I have a question for the group that = came up in my research for "The Revenant": One historical account of the= Glass/maggots incident reports the following description of treatment gi= ven Glass by the Sioux: "The wound on his back was found in a horrid con= dition. It had become full of worms! The Indians carefully washed it an= d applied an astringent vegetable liquid." Anyone know what might have= been in an "astringent vegetable liquid?" Thanks, Michael Punke = - -----Original Message----- From: George Noe [mailto:gnoe39@yahoo.com] S= ent: Friday, March 21, 2003 5:01 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Su= bject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass You mean Hug= h didn't throw away his cast! I'll be. Where was his sense of p= eriod correctness! Wynn Ormond Wynn after that sow bear got through= with him and those ole boys took everything he had, all he had left to= throw away was the maggots in his back. grn =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D George = R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back tr= ail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. ______________________________= ____________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA M= arch Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com - -------= - --------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtma= n/maillist.html ______________________________________________________= ___ NOTICE: This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it = are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain legally = privileged and confidential information. If the reader of this message i= s not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for del= ivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified t= hat any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this messag= e or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this me= ssage in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this = message and please delete it from your computer. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:15:51 -0800 From: "Two Bears Kelsey" <tubears@charter.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Anyone know what might have been in an "astringent vegetable liquid?" Thanks, Michael Punke Michael, Just looked in a book that I have here and found reference to the powdered heads of puffball mushrooms and also the use of spiderweb to stop heavy bleeding from open gaping wounds. The name of the book is "American Indian Medicine" by "Virgil J. Vogel" from the University of Oklahoma press. "Two Bears" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 11:25:45 -0500 From: "Tim J." <tjewell@comcast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Punke, Michael W." <MPunke@mayerbrownrowe.com> >...The Indians carefully washed it and applied an astringent vegetable liquid." >Anyone know what might have been in an "astringent vegetable liquid?" There are several possibilities that come to mind. Witchhazel is a great astringent. Elder leaves are a good antiseptic. Ladies mantle slows bleeding, comfrey and yarrow promote healing and plantain is an antibiotic. I'm sure there are other choices but I'm working off the top of my head right now. I believe most, if not all of these grow throughout most parts of the country. They are also well documented to have been used by both Native Americans and colonial Americans. I'm surprized that the Sioux removed the maggots. It was fairly common knowledge then, that they maggots would only eat the dead tissue, in effect they were mini surgeons debriding the wound. Tim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:29:51 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth >From: "Curtis Krouse" <kc16@qwest.net> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth >Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:31:04 -0800 > >Maybe so Capt'n, > > There are a lot of supply lists that mention a large amount >of tow and plain cotton. I found a compiled list of invoices from the >superintendency at St. Louis of supplies furnished to the traders in >1831. The calicos and fancy cottons were in the amount of hundreds of >yards. The common cotton was 13,850 yards. Which one could conclude >that common cotton might have been used for things other than clothing >because of the difference in the amount. They also don't mention tow at >all on the invoices, even with the gun supplies, which means to me that >they started using common cotton for things like cleaning rags, patches, >char cloth and other camp necessities. > > >Blood > >______________ Blood, You say they don't mention tow at all on the invoices but earlier in your post you noted a "lot of tow. . .". I'd like to find out more about this tow. Will you elaborate on this? Do you know if "cotton applied to linen fiber at that time as it did in the 18th c.? I know documentation is tricky and I agree with everything you said in your post. I just don't want to "do no more _______ assumpthin'" than I have to. I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers and I want to see what they saw as near as I can. Thanks a heap for that post. You guys keep my head away from so much "assumpthin'" it ain't funny. I hadn't given up on char cloth but I'll use what I "know" was there until I find more evidence like your post. Thanks, Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 2003 08:45:35 -0800 From: "Curtis Krouse" <kc16@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth James, Yeah...I did sort of contradict myself there didn't I. I'm doing some research in a book entitled "Messages from the President on the State of the Fur Trade 1824-1832." It has a few lists in it. One was a list of goods from one company that included lots of tow. That is what it is called on the list. The other list is a compilation of invoices and there is no tow mentioned on that list. Maybe tow is something other than what we think it is. Or it was called different things at that time. I'm not sure. I'm hoping that someone else on the list can shed some light on this with other books that have similar lists. Right now...I owe....so off to work I go. Blood On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 08:29, James MacKannai wrote: > > > > > > > > >From: "Curtis Krouse" <kc16@qwest.net> > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > >Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:31:04 -0800 > > > >Maybe so Capt'n, > > > > There are a lot of supply lists that mention a large amount > >of tow and plain cotton. I found a compiled list of invoices from the > >superintendency at St. Louis of supplies furnished to the traders in > >1831. The calicos and fancy cottons were in the amount of hundreds of > >yards. The common cotton was 13,850 yards. Which one could conclude > >that common cotton might have been used for things other than clothing > >because of the difference in the amount. They also don't mention tow at > >all on the invoices, even with the gun supplies, which means to me that > >they started using common cotton for things like cleaning rags, patches, > >char cloth and other camp necessities. > > > > > > >Blood > > > >______________ > > Blood, > > You say they don't mention tow at all on the invoices but earlier in your > post you noted a "lot of tow. . .". I'd like to find out more about this > tow. Will you elaborate on this? Do you know if "cotton applied to linen > fiber at that time as it did in the 18th c.? > > I know documentation is tricky and I agree with everything you said in your > post. I just don't want to "do no more _______ assumpthin'" than I have to. > I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers and I want to > see what they saw as near as I can. > > Thanks a heap for that post. You guys keep my head away from so much > "assumpthin'" it ain't funny. I hadn't given up on char cloth but I'll use > what I "know" was there until I find more evidence like your post. > > Thanks, > Jim > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:48:50 +0000 From: "Sean Boushie" <flintlocknfur@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery We were talking Cat an wolf, not Dog. when assesing a track using our standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found traveling in a group far away from a road. >From: FSLark@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:06:31 EST > >In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Htorr@aol.com >writes: > > > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We > > have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > > near the lake > >There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall shape. >Dog >tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat tracks tend toward >the >opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the front end, >on >the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front. The last of the >markers >I look for is the toes. On a dog, they come out in a symetrical pattern. >From the middl of the back of the pad draw an imaginary line out through >the >middle of the toe. There should be a nice pattern. On feline tracks, >there >will be no symmetry. A good book that will demonstrate these differences >is >by Dr. James Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North America. > >You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog >tracks >without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. >Frank _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:56:53 -0800 (PST) From: Mitch Post <hiparoo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth - -. Maybe tow > is something other > than what we think it is. Tow was used as packing material-basically the "peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not mentioned often in trade lists. ===== "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 09:17:24 -0800 From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Blood, There are cotton wood trees all along almost any stretch of water way you can think of in that part of the world. And it's hardly necessary to have "brush" to get a fire considering that the under duff from buffalo grass makes excellent tinder and let's not forget buffalo dung for fires even in the absence of wood in any form. Again, your comments/research on the amount of cloth etc. is really not at issue. It's the implication that one must carry char cloth or use trade goods to make such rather than gather materials from the wild if at no other time than when you get out of your boat at night to sleep or take a dump. There have been any number of references offered by list participants showing first person accounts of fire making with the notable absence of the use of char cloth. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:23:16 EST From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery - --part1_97.362f8654.2bb1ea84_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Man, I am getting a lot of good info from this list. I can hardly wait until my next time at Scout camp so I can try to identify all the tracks in the mud. Thanks much, everybody. Sparky > We were talking Cat an wolf, not Dog. when assesing a track using our > standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat > (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size > is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found > traveling in a group far away from a road. > > >From: FSLark@aol.com > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:06:31 EST > > > >In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Htorr@aol.com > >writes: > > > >>Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We > >>have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > >>near the lake > > > >There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall shape. > >Dog > >tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat tracks tend toward > >the > >opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the front end, > >on > >the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front. The last of the > >markers > >I look for is the toes. On a dog, they come out in a symetrical pattern. > >From the middl of the back of the pad draw an imaginary line out through > >the > >middle of the toe. There should be a nice pattern. On feline tracks, > >there > >will be no symmetry. A good book that will demonstrate these differences > > >is > >by Dr. James Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North > America. > > > >You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog > >tracks > >without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. > >Frank > > - --part1_97.362f8654.2bb1ea84_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> Man, I am getting a lot of good inf= o from this list. I can hardly wait until my next time at Scout camp s= o I can try to identify all the tracks in the mud. Thanks much, everybody. Sparky <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT= : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We were talking Cat an wolf, no= t Dog. when assesing a track using our standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat <BR= > (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size <= BR> is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found <BR= > traveling in a group far away from a road. >From: FSLark@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:06:31 EST > >In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Htorr@aol.= com >writes: > >>Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks?= We >>have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks i= n the mud >>near the lake > >There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overa= ll shape. >Dog >tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat tracks tend=20= toward >the >opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the fron= t end, >on >the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front. The last of th= e >markers >I look for is the toes. On a dog, they come out in a symetrical pa= ttern. >From the middl of the back of the pad draw an imaginary line out through= >the >middle of the toe. There should be a nice pattern. On feline= tracks, >there >will be no symmetry. A good book that will demonstrate these= differences >is >by Dr. James Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North Ameri= ca. > >You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see d= og >tracks >without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. >Frank </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> - --part1_97.362f8654.2bb1ea84_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:12:05 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth >From: Mitch Post <hiparoo@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:56:53 -0800 (PST) > > Tow was used as packing material-basically the >"peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not >mentioned often in trade lists. > >===== >"It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael AIN"T IT SO! > ___________________________ Mitch, Where can I find more information on tow as packing material? Was it used when shipping from New York or other places within the U.S. when repackaging trade goods? Did British suppliers use it too? Do you know what else was used as packaging material? I know, I ask a lot of questions but I am pretty ignorant about a lot of things (not so ignorant about others). Packaging is of interest in other ways too. I have a theory that the "eared caps" seen as drawn by Miller could easily be made by pulling a bag over the head and cutting a face hole. The ears would form much like the "ears" seen on a pillow case. Anyway, I 'd like to know more about packaging. How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? No one knows; it has never been tried. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1173 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.