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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1171 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, March 24 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1171 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá MtMan-List: loads -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: loads -áááááá MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth (long winded) -áááááá MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 06:51:30 -0700 (MST) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > Well, no wolves or big cats on the islands of the St Joe river. We do > have eagles, but didna see any this trip... swans, geese, herons, and a > bazillion ducks. Rained mostly, spent most of the weekend keeping dry, > or drying out cloths... glad I wore wool and not cotton. > > Two beavers, one miss. Last beaver was big enough to haul the trap and > sinker weight (50 lbs dirt in bag) back to shore after hitting the end > of the dive wire. He was waiting for us when we got there, and non too > happy. It was a good thing he hauled up our trap as we may have never > found that one... river rose foot and a half overnight due to the rains. > > Cheers from Idaho... where the sun finally came out.. > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho > AMM# 1821 > http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com > http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle > http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 06:59:04 -0700 (MST) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Lee, Successful trapping! That's great! Two beaver is the most we ever caught on our annual spring beaver trapping trip. Rising (or falling) water is never good for the water trapper. We're doing the Roche Jaune (Yellowstone) this spring and I can't wait! After that I work another week then get a week to hunt spring gobblers with the fusee. I love spring more than anything anymore. It is our reward for having to work outdoors in Montana all winter. beaverboy > Well, no wolves or big cats on the islands of the St Joe river. We do > have eagles, but didna see any this trip... swans, geese, herons, and a > bazillion ducks. Rained mostly, spent most of the weekend keeping dry, > or drying out cloths... glad I wore wool and not cotton. > > Two beavers, one miss. Last beaver was big enough to haul the trap and > sinker weight (50 lbs dirt in bag) back to shore after hitting the end > of the dive wire. He was waiting for us when we got there, and non too > happy. It was a good thing he hauled up our trap as we may have never > found that one... river rose foot and a half overnight due to the rains. > > Cheers from Idaho... where the sun finally came out.. > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho > AMM# 1821 > http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com > http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle > http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:36:28 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" <Rifleman1776@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: loads NM said, <A lot of places have a maximum 60 grain limit > Please explain, what kind of "places"? Who is setting what kind of limits for other people? Strange. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:08:42 -0700 (MST) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loads > NM said, <A lot of places have a maximum 60 grain limit > > Please explain, what kind of "places"? Who is setting what kind of > limits for other people? Strange. > Frank G. Fusco Frank, I'm sure he meant the range captains are setting the limits so targets aren't destroyed and balls aren't flying into the next county. Range captains always make/set the rules whether is it a gun range or a bow range, whatever. You want to shoot their range, you follow their rules. bb - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:13:58 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth Dear List Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. Is there some writing from their time frame (such as the recorded statement that matches of the time were too unreliable to be used instead of a striker - - Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly-) that causes you believe they didn't use charred cloth. So far all I've heard is opinion. I know that SOME people all over the U.S. (at that time) used fungus and that it was imported and sold as fire starting material, but when did the fire starting world quit using char cloth or did they ever use it? I don't know and that is why I ask. I think it is important to understand what the rest of the country was doing because these are the people who taught the mountain men to make fires. What did Indians use? Does anyone know what was used in Kentucky and Missouri during the 1790-1840 time period? I'll keep looking too, but I would like more evidence that it WASN'T used. I have used a bunch of charred natural materials and have made fires with bow drill; I can do what they did but I'd like to know I AM doing what they did. Do you know what they did? Of all the things not known I thought we had firemaking fairly documented and certain. I won't be able to make a fire and feel right till I also have evidence that I am doing it (or not doing it)like Bridger, Wyeth, Sublett, or one of the dozens of men from Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, or Pennsylvania. There is no sense in wearing smokey clothing and riding funny saddles if I'm doing even one thing unlike the way they did it (if it is possible in this present time to do better). Thanks for your patience in this matter. I just haven't seen much more than opinion yet and while I believe I could spend a few years and find an answer based on period evidence I am hoping someone will already know. Jim _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:18:53 EST From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery - --part1_152.1d6d2b73.2bb07bdd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud near the lake. I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it is a canine as the felines retract their claws when they walk. Thanks for your trouble. H.T. "Sparky" Orr Htorr@aol.com In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their tracks > even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all > along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. > I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy > Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that > fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a > 3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the > sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was > not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. > - --part1_152.1d6d2b73.2bb07bdd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> Can somebody verify the difference between cani= ne and feline tracks? We have this problem at our local Scout Camp.&nb= sp; We see the tracks in the mud near the lake. I have been told that if you see the claws on the t= rack, it is a canine as the felines retract their claws when they walk= . Thanks for your trouble. H.T. "Sparky" Orr Htorr@aol.com In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, beaverboy@sof= ast.net writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT= : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> I know there are lions a= ll along my trapline. We've seen their tracks even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy<BR= > Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a 3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the<= BR> sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> - --part1_152.1d6d2b73.2bb07bdd_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:29:55 -0700 (MST) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Jim, It wasn't my opinion that the men on the L&C expedition had no cloth to spare for char it is a fact. They were down to a hanky full of trade goods for their return journey. If they were trading the buttons off of their coats for roots and fish from the indians do you think they would waste a scrap of colored cloth they could trade for food on starting a fire? They used char for a while I'm sure then switched to the available material. After two seasons in the hills I don't think anyone had any char, I guess that is my opinion. Some very basic chores are almost impossible to find references to. Find a reference today on how to tie a shoe. I cannot not find a reference as how the beaver were skinned back then, rough or clean? Doesn't matter. We figure it out by doing it now under the same circumstances. Captain Lahti said punky birch wood works well, why not find a similar wood in you locale to use. bb > Dear List > > Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. Is > there some writing from their time frame (such as the recorded statement > that matches of the time were too unreliable to be used instead of a > striker - Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly-) that causes you believe > they didn't use charred cloth. So far all I've heard is opinion. I know > that SOME people all over the U.S. (at that time) used fungus and that > it was imported and sold as fire starting material, but when did the > fire starting world quit using char cloth or did they ever use it? I > don't know and that is why I ask. I think it is important to understand > what the rest of the country was doing because these are the people who > taught the mountain men to make fires. What did Indians use? Does > anyone know what was used in Kentucky and Missouri during the 1790-1840 > time period? I'll keep looking too, but I would like more evidence that > it WASN'T used. I have used a bunch of charred natural materials and > have made fires with bow drill; I can do what they did but I'd like to > know I AM doing what they did. Do you know what they did? Of all the > things not known I thought we had firemaking fairly documented and > certain. > > I won't be able to make a fire and feel right till I also have evidence > that I am doing it (or not doing it)like Bridger, Wyeth, Sublett, or > one of the dozens of men from Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, or > Pennsylvania. There is no sense in wearing%2 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:44:18 -0700 (MST) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Sparky, You are correct. All cats have retractable claws. Find a set of house cat tracks in the mud and examine them. This is basically what all cat tracks look like, only the size is different. Mountain Lion tracks are wide and of course big too but there is no mistaking them for anything else. Get an experienced tracker to examine or have the scouts make plaster casts of them for latter examination. If you have a lion about I certainly wouldn't let any scouts walk around alone or at night without an adult. They can be scared off but you have to be fairly intimidating to do it. The Montane FWP has two different brochures on living with lions and bears nearby. Try to get a copy of them. Personally, I almost always pack a pistol and I will give a lion stalking me a lead souvenir to take home with him. bb > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? > We > have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > near the lake. > > I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it is a > canine > as the felines retract their claws when they walk. > > Thanks for your trouble. > > H.T. "Sparky" Orr > Htorr@aol.com > > > In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, > beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > >> I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their >> tracks >> even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all >> along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. >> I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy >> Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that >> fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a >> 3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the >> sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was >> not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. >> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:47:00 +0000 From: "Sean Boushie" <flintlocknfur@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery That's correct, the only way to be 100% sure is to look very closely on hands and knees sometimes at several tracks for claw marks. Feline are also a bit "squared off" in the pad and toes, but you'd have to see them side by side to really notice, and the impression has to be perfect which it usually isn't. Another way is to follow the tracks. If there is more than one chances are its wolf/coyote/dog, and if you see a RLU (raised leg Urination) in the snow it would indicate canine whereas a spray post would indicate feline. Spray post is a tree bush ect where both male and female felines will back up to it and spray urine on it to mark territory. Hope this helps. >From: Htorr@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery >Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:18:53 EST > > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We >have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud >near >the lake. > > I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it is a >canine >as the felines retract their claws when they walk. > > Thanks for your trouble. > > H.T. "Sparky" Orr > Htorr@aol.com > > >In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, >beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > > > I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their tracks > > even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all > > along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. > > I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy > > Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that > > fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a > > 3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the > > sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was > > not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 2003 08:13:06 -0800 From: "Curtis Krouse" <kc16@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Jim, bb, and Cap't Lahti, I'm doing some research for my Hiverano paper right now and have to take exception to some of the "opinions" that you guys have been sporting. The jist of my research is about the political sense of the fur trade during the late 20's and early 30's. In uncovering some literature I have discovered quite a few references to the "subsidizing" of the fur trade by the United States government at that time. During the early years of trade with the native indians, there were actually no profits made because after trade was performed, most often the traders were raided by the same or different tribes and robbed of most of their goods. Very often most of the men were killed and those who escaped had nothing except the clothes on their backs. The attitude of the government upon the return of these gentlemen of the rocky mountain trade, was to supply the fur company with enough to subsidize their losses. And those who were hearty took back to the mountains with fresh goods to trade some more. These men were not "hurting" for trade goods. Quite the contrary, they were lavished with trade goods. Now, if I were in the mountains, loaded with company goods, I certainly would NOT stray from camp in hostile territory to find fungus, burnt trees, or any other substance to start the fire with. I'd be using the reams of cloth that I had at my disposal. Most often trade goods were traded for horses. Oddly enough my research indicates that trade goods were used for horses and safe passage through an area. The traders, note the title of the era and name of the men.....traders, were actually NOT supposed to trap. Even though they took traps for TRADING with the indians in return for beaver that they trapped. That was the law...even though it was not enforced...who could enforce it. But, the intructions out of the capital were to trade....not trap. However, if I were in hostile territory, loaded with trade goods and a company of men, I certainly would not risk life and limb on gathering natural substances for making fires. NOW....having said that. If I were one of the survivors of a raid and left with only my knife or knife and weapon and were escaping hostiles, I would certainly hope that I had the skills to use the knife, some quartz, flint, or some other rocks that would spark against my knife, and some sort of local natural substance in order to start a fire to save my mangy, hungry, scared arse so that I could get back to a fort and report the incident to the army. So....the question of using something other than char cloth should not be one of "did they use it". But, rather, "if they didn't have it, what could they use". They used char cloth. It would be a foolish waste of time and dangerous to not use it. But...they were also very good at surviving when they didn't have char cloth available. I can also say this. If I were in survival mode....I would rip one of my sleeves off and use that for char cloth to make fire with after I got my first fire made. It's just too darn nice of a substance as opposed to spending all that time looking for other substances and risking being discovered. I'd be on a straight line back to safety so that I could hopefully tell my grandchildren of my escapades. Respectfully, Curtis "Blood" Krouse On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 07:29, beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > Jim, > It wasn't my opinion that the men on the L&C expedition had no cloth > to spare for char it is a fact. They were down to a hanky full of > trade goods for their return journey. If they were trading the buttons > off of their coats for roots and fish from the indians do you think > they would waste a scrap of colored cloth they could trade for food on > starting a fire? They used char for a while I'm sure then switched to > the available material. After two seasons in the hills I don't think > anyone had any char, I guess that is my opinion. > Some very basic chores are almost impossible to find references to. > Find a reference today on how to tie a shoe. I cannot not find a > reference as how the beaver were skinned back then, rough or clean? > Doesn't matter. We figure it out by doing it now under the same > circumstances. > Captain Lahti said punky birch wood works well, why not find a similar > wood in you locale to use. > bb > > > > > > Dear List > > > > Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. Is > > there some writing from their time frame (such as the recorded statement > > that matches of the time were too unreliable to be used instead of a > > striker - Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly-) that causes you believe > > they didn't use charred cloth. So far all I've heard is opinion. I know > > that SOME people all over the U.S. (at that time) used fungus and that > > it was imported and sold as fire starting material, but when did the > > fire starting world quit using char cloth or did they ever use it? I > > don't know and that is why I ask. I think it is important to understand > > what the rest of the country was doing because these are the people who > > taught the mountain men to make fires. What did Indians use? Does > > anyone know what was used in Kentucky and Missouri during the 1790-1840 > > time period? I'll keep looking too, but I would like more evidence that > > it WASN'T used. I have used a bunch of charred natural materials and > > have made fires with bow drill; I can do what they did but I'd like to > > know I AM doing what they did. Do you know what they did? Of all the > > things not known I thought we had firemaking fairly documented and > > certain. > > > > I won't be able to make a fire and feel right till I also have evidence > > that I am doing it (or not doing it)like Bridger, Wyeth, Sublett, or > > one of the dozens of men from Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, or > > Pennsylvania. There is no sense in wearing%2 > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:27:29 EST From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery - --part1_1e3.5211247.2bb08bf1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for confirming what we suspected. When we were out doing astronomy merit badge, they made sure that the boys kept close together. So far there have been no incidents as far as I know. Sparky In a message dated 3/24/2003 7:46:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > Sparky, > You are correct. All cats have retractable claws. Find a set of house > cat tracks in the mud and examine them. This is basically what all cat > tracks look like, only the size is different. Mountain Lion tracks are > wide and of course big too but there is no mistaking them for anything > else. Get an experienced tracker to examine or have the scouts make > plaster casts of them for latter examination. > If you have a lion about I certainly wouldn't let any scouts walk > around alone or at night without an adult. They can be scared off but > you have to be fairly intimidating to do it. > The Montane FWP has two different brochures on living with lions and > bears nearby. Try to get a copy of them. > Personally, I almost always pack a pistol and I will give a lion > stalking me a lead souvenir to take home with him. > bb > > > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? > >We > >have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > >near the lake. > > > > I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it is a > >canine > >as the felines retract their claws when they walk. > > > > Thanks for your trouble. > > > > H.T. "Sparky" Orr > > Htorr@aol.com > > > > > >In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, > >beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > > > >> I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their > >>tracks > >>even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all > >>along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. > >> I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy > >>Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that > >>fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a > >>3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the > >>sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was > >>not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. > >> > > - --part1_1e3.5211247.2bb08bf1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> Thanks for confirming what we= suspected. When we were out doing astronomy merit badge, they made su= re that the boys kept close together. So far there have been no incide= nts as far as I know. Sparky In a message dated 3/24/2003 7:46:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, beaverboy@sof= ast.net writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT= : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Sparky, You are correct. All cats have retractable claws. Find a set of house= cat tracks in the mud and examine them. This is basically what all cat tracks look like, only the size is different. Mountain Lion tracks are wide and of course big too but there is no mistaking them for anything else. Get an experienced tracker to examine or have the scouts make plaster casts of them for latter examination. If you have a lion about I certainly wouldn't let any scouts walk around alone or at night without an adult. They can be scared off but you have to be fairly intimidating to do it. The Montane FWP has two different brochures on living with lions and<= BR> bears nearby. Try to get a copy of them. Personally, I almost always pack a pistol and I will give a lion stalking me a lead souvenir to take home with him. bb > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline trac= ks? >We >have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in th= e mud >near the lake. > > I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it= is a >canine >as the felines retract their claws when they walk. > > Thanks for your trouble. > > H.T. "Sparky" Orr > Htorr@aol.com > > >In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, >beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > >> I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen thei= r >>tracks >>even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears al= l >>along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. >> I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the=20= Snowy >>Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that<= BR> >>fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay= a >>3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not to= uch the >>sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it wa= s >>not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. >> </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> - --part1_1e3.5211247.2bb08bf1_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:29:07 EST From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery - --part1_de.3624832a.2bb08c53_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this a great list or what? Sure appreciate all this good info. Sparky message dated 3/24/2003 7:47:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes: > That's correct, the only way to be 100% sure is to look very closely on > hands and knees sometimes at several tracks for claw marks. Feline are also > > a bit "squared off" in the pad and toes, but you'd have to see them side by > > side to really notice, and the impression has to be perfect which it > usually > isn't. Another way is to follow the tracks. If there is more than one > chances are its wolf/coyote/dog, and if you see a RLU (raised leg > Urination) > in the snow it would indicate canine whereas a spray post would indicate > feline. Spray post is a tree bush ect where both male and female felines > will back up to it and spray urine on it to mark territory. Hope this > helps. > > > > > > - --part1_de.3624832a.2bb08c53_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML>Is this a great list or what? Sure appreci= ate all this good info. Sparky message dated 3/24/2003 7:47:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,= flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT= : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">That's correct, the only way to= be 100% sure is to look very closely on hands and knees sometimes at several tracks for claw marks. Feline are also=20= a bit "squared off" in the pad and toes, but you'd have to see them side by=20= side to really notice, and the impression has to be perfect which it usually= isn't. Another way is to follow the tracks. If there is more than one chances are its wolf/coyote/dog, and if you see a RLU (raised leg Urination)= in the snow it would indicate canine whereas a spray post would indicate <BR= > feline. Spray post is a tree bush ect where both male and female felines <BR= > will back up to it and spray urine on it to mark territory. Hope this=20= helps. </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> - --part1_de.3624832a.2bb08c53_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:56:29 -0500 From: "Tim J." <tjewell@comcast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth (long winded) Hi Jim, As you say, opinions abound on this list, so I might as well add mine. I don't think that anyone is saying that the mountain men didn't use char cloth, just that it was probably fairly uncommon after the fire few months (or first season) in the mountains. Most mountaneers headed out from the east in small parties or larger brigades. It is possible they were supplied with char cloth at the beginning of their journey but there are no (or precious few) references to it even at that point. As to using the some of the cloth intended to trade with for char, I would say that is also possible on a limited basis. Human nature being what it is, they would probably use whatever was easiest and most handy. As cloth supply dwindled and became more valuable I'm sure other means of catching sparks was used. You don't have to go searching far and wide for materials. You can gather likely char materials as you are gathering firewood, pick up things as you travel or trap, or dig through last nights fire pit. Most any kind of powdered charcoal will catch and hold a spark. When I use a bow drill to start a fire I don't start with anything other than the drill and some tinder. As the drill spin it starts creating a small pile of fine charred material that eventually catches and holds the spark. Try grinding a little charcoal from last nights fire and using flint and steel to create the spark instead of the drill. For me at least, it usually works fairly well, but for ease and convienience I still carry and use char cloth. As to evidence that char cloth wasn't used, that brings up a very common research dilema... you can't prove a negative. The absense of documentation does not prove that it didn't exist, merely that it wasn't or hasn't been documented. If you find a primary reference then you have proof, the number of other primary and seconday references go to show how common something was. Finally, in colonial times there are also little to no references to char cloth. I have seen several references (in period journals) to traveling to a neighbors house to "fetch" coals from their fire when a hot coal could not be found from last nights fire. Overall, as in Beaver Boys point on tying shoes, we know that starting and maintaining a fire was an everyday task but other than that we know little about how it was actually done. Regards, Tim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:06:30 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth Lewis and Clark did run out of cloth; they were gone for a long time whereas the mountain men were supplied yearly. Traders along the rivers and at early forts could stockpile. There were lots of instances in later times (1830 - 1840 and after) where cloth was AVAILABLE for making char cloth. There were burning glasses, touchwood, and other ways of making fire. What Capt. Lahti and Beaverboy have made me realize is that I have no documentation for the use of char cloth ANYWHERE. Once I realized that, I realized I don't "know" very much about fire making in the Rocky Mountains between 1825 and 1840. It is not a question of "can I make a fire" in the 21st century. I can. It is a question of being certain, using documentation, archeological information and artifacts, of just how mountain men, trappers and traders as well as explorers like L&C made fires. I am sure information is there but I have been so busy trying to find other things I failed to collect evidence of one of the most common chores in the mountains. I don't even have evidence that would support the use of char cloth in the settlements. I have simply overlooked documenting a process,and materials involved, that should have been one of the first things I looked at. I remember reading several times about the use of black powder as fire starting material and I have done it. Black powder is surely a more valuable item in the mountains than a small section of cloth. Thanks for your input. I hope to hear more. Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:18:34 -0800 From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com> To: <hist_text@xmission.com> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 7:13 AM Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth > Dear List > > Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. Jim, Why are you so sure they did? YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:36:43 -0700 (MST) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth During the early years of trade with the native indians, there were actually no profits > made because after trade was performed, most often the traders were > raided by the same or different tribes and robbed of most of their > goods. I find it hard to believe this comment.I don't think you can get trade ships to travel to Europe and the far east on subsidies. John Jacob Astor did not become America's first millionare by getting government subsidies. Manuel Lisa didn't get rich to retire in St. Louis by checking his mail box to get a check. He was as far north and west as Montana trapping AND trading for beaver hides and they took several thousands pelts from the Three Forks area alone in one season. It has always been much more lucrative to purchase pelts than it is to trap them, but not always. Which is why a lot of men chose to trade not trap. Illegal? It was illegal to trade whiskey to the indians. Did it happen? Yes. As for the danger of collecting punky wood. I don't think you have to wander far from camp to collect all you need for many fires. If a man is so afraid of his shadow as to not go a hundred yards out of camp he certainly would not have left Missouri to come deep into indian territory. bb - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1171 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.