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hist_text-digest        Monday, March 24 2003        Volume 01 : Number 1170



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:05:47 -0800
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth

Lots of stuff can be used to start fires.

Moss works well as does most any dry, fiberous stuff.  I have used a plain
cotton lamp wick that I blacken one end of, catch a spark, blow to flame in
fine tinder squeeze between fingers to extinguish and tuck away, just
protect enough of the blackened end to catch the next spark.  Not the best.

The best I've found is well washed bleached linen.  I got a scrap from the
folks at Connor Prairie (their standard shirt stock) and have been using it
ever since.  There is never a need to make a coffee can full and large
batches are not of as good a quality as small.  I use one of Ted C's
rectangular tins that the lid hinge has been riveted in place.  NO extra
holes or such.  Cut rectangles of cloth and lay in can to just fill then
throw in the edge of a fire till it quits smoking.  Drag it out, cool it
off and use it up; then make more.

I lived with flint and steel for a few years as my primary fire source and
lit 30 to 40 hand rolled smokes a day in addition to cooking fires.  I
still have most of the linen scrap from 20+ years ago and have never been
short of char.  It is the same stuff I use to light a candle direct from
char.  It was never a full yard of cloth.  Back then it was rare that I
needed to strike twice to catch a spark.

For many years I have cut up scraps of buckskin and blanket into rough
sizes that I've used to not only clean my musket but for wadding when
loading shot.  I poke a hole through the center and thread on a whang that
hangs from my bag strap, never used fancy cut wads and such.  It'll keep
you fed -- don't know or care much about the more technical aspects of
shooting.  I do use other cotton or linen for patches on ball mostly
ticking that I have in a couple of thicknesses torn to handy strips.

It has only been in recent years that tow has become a popular accessory,
20 years ago it was harder to come by in the Rocky Mountains: I suspect it
might have been hard to come by 180 - 190 years ago; in the wilderness.

John...


Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>


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Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:30:06 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads...

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In a message dated 3/22/2003 10:47:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin in them
> .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot.
>

I'm told that my hunting load of 130 gr. of 2F is awfully hot too.  Oddly,
both my .50 (Colerain) & .54 (Tru-Bore) barrels like that charge.  For
target, I use half the 130 charge which equals 65 gr. of 2F OR 55 gr. of 3F.
For starters try cutting back to 70 gr. of 3F (80 - 2F), then try 35 gr. of
3F (40 - 2F).  The 2F charges suggested are educated guesses, but should be
close to same accuracy as the 3F loadings. Your grouping should stay about
the same though your trajectory will have more of the "rainbow effect"
meaning, you'll have to learn the art of "hold over" with target loads.  You
may need to adjust ball diameter & patching a bit for best accuracy at the
lower velocities.  A lot of places have a maximum 60 grain limit for safety's
sake (like accidental double charging) & the sake of their targets -- why my
load of 55 gr. of 3F which shoots same point of aim as the 65 gr. of 2F which
is deemed too much by some range rules.  For hunting, I prefer the slower
burn of the 2F in my 42" barrels, but in a 34 - 36" barrel, 3F might be a bit
better.

NM

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/22/2003 10:47:43 PM Pacific Stand=
ard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">So the question is.... what kin=
da "target" loads you boys shootin in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might=20=
be a bit hot.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
I'm told that my hunting load of 130 gr. of 2F is awfully hot too.  Odd=
ly, both my .50 (Colerain) & .54 (Tru-Bore) barrels like that charge.&nb=
sp; For target, I use half the 130 charge which equals 65 gr. of 2F OR 55 gr=
. of 3F.  For starters try cutting back to 70 gr. of 3F (80 - 2F), then=
 try 35 gr. of 3F (40 - 2F).  The 2F charges suggested are educated gue=
sses, but should be close to same accuracy as the 3F loadings. Your grouping=
 should stay about the same though your trajectory will have more of the "ra=
inbow effect" meaning, you'll have to learn the art of "hold over" with targ=
et loads.  You may need to adjust ball diameter & patching a bit fo=
r best accuracy at the lower velocities.  A lot of places have a maximu=
m 60 grain limit for safety's sake (like accidental double charging) & t=
he sake of their targets -- why my load of 55 gr. of 3F which shoots same po=
int of aim as the 65 gr. of 2F which is deemed too much by some range rules.=
  For hunting, I prefer the slower burn of the 2F in my 42" barrels, bu=
t in a 34 - 36" barrel, 3F might be a bit better.<BR>
<BR>
NM  </FONT></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:34:00 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock?

Well, ladies and gents. I just had a nice phone visit with a list member who
knows more than he can readily type so I'll do the typing.

According to my source, he read a fine article in one of the NRA mags back
in the late 80's about the Harper's Ferry Muskets and the rifles that the
Corps carried. According to the article and I trust the NRA to come up with
well researched info, there were only about two thirds of the "Harpers
Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think of the 1803
Harper's Ferry to be.

The rest of the guns taken from the Armory there were common military
muskets of the time. They were also called Harpers Ferry and given the year
they were made thus also 1803, etc. and if you looked at a Charleville
Musket you would be looking at a common Military Musket from Harpers Ferry
and what the other guns taken by the Corps looked like. (with very minor
changes). A full stock, banded musket in smooth bore of large caliber and
flint lock of course.

According to the article, the half stock rifles made by Harpers Ferry
Arsenal at that time and for the Corps were unique, were not ever made again
and actually not the universal fire arm on the expedition. A rifled musket
even close to what we think of as the 1803 was not made again until 1820's.

So many of the Harpers Ferry 1803 models taken were full stock smooth bore
muskets. Remember they denoted a fire arm's name/designation by it's place
of manufacture and year of manufacture, not specific features.

The article mentioned one full stock Harpers Ferry being known to exist,
found in St. Louie or thereabouts in a garage sale. It had all the repairs
that the Corps documented as having been made to one of the muskets that
seemed to be the most trouble to keep working as it's provenance including
the broken stock when it had been swung at a bear.

Well this should either be very interesting knowledge to file away or cause
some heated discussion. <G> If our benefactor wishes to come forward and
claim the blame that is fine with me. I'm just the proud carrier of the
message. <G>

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:14:20 -0800
From: "Larry Butler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads...

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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Cc: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:19 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads...


  Geeez.....

  A couple smart-ass remarks about welfare to the boys in California, =
and a So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin =
in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot.

  Ymos,
  Magpie=20

  I hunt deer and Elk with 110 gr 2f and play with 50 gr 2f



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff style=3D"COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 22, 2003 =
8:19=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Tough =
crowd/target=20
  loads...</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Geeez.....<BR><BR>A couple smart-ass remarks =
about welfare=20
  to the boys in California, and a So the question is.... what kinda =
"target"=20
  loads you boys shootin in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a =
bit=20
  hot.<BR><BR>Ymos,<BR>Magpie <BR><BR>I hunt deer and Elk with 110 gr 2f =
and=20
  play with 50 gr 2f<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:57:10 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth

(How does wool char work anyway?)

Not worth a damn. Wool is probably one of the safest materials to use around
an open fire. Self extinguishing (25 years on a fire dept. <G>).

I would like to know if char cloth
> was there at all.

So would we all. I have no proof. Do you?

> but cloth is VERY efficient in most every way (except availability in the
> mountains).

My punky Bird wood chared up is every bit as fast as your char cloth I
assure you. I am not at a disadvantage using it.

 Is there much evidence that char-wood or touch wood was
> preferred over cloth? I'd rather strike once and get a glow than bounce
> sparks off charred wood but I'll clack away and wear out my striker if it
is
> certain that is the way it was done.

Using the right materials you won't wear out your striker or flint any more
so than using char. The question is what other materials were used. I have a
problem getting a glow from charred wood, especially decidious woods.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:00:22 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper

Tin has been used to line copper and brass cooking vessels for hundreds of
years and still is in the middle east and Asia. Copper itself is not that
poisonous. Your here after all. <G> But acidic foods probably should not be
cooked in copper or brass untinned pots. Otherwise there really is not much
danger and certainly even less in a tin lined pot.

Plumbers solder is now lead free. It's bought as "Lead Free Silver Bearing
Solder".

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:02:25 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth

<My punky Bird wood charred up is every bit as fast as your char cloth I
assure you. I am not at a disadvantage using it.>

Sorry about that. It should read "Birch wood".

Capt. L


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:02:44 -0500
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper

And copper makes yer rum taste funny afer a couple a days......

D



- ----- Original Message -----
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper


> Tin has been used to line copper and brass cooking vessels for hundreds of
> years and still is in the middle east and Asia. Copper itself is not that
> poisonous. Your here after all. <G> But acidic foods probably should not
be
> cooked in copper or brass untinned pots. Otherwise there really is not
much
> danger and certainly even less in a tin lined pot.
>
> Plumbers solder is now lead free. It's bought as "Lead Free Silver Bearing
> Solder".
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:36:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper

In a message dated 3/23/03 7:03:37 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< And copper makes yer rum taste funny afer a couple a days......

 >>

Hmmmm..... never had rum last a couple days! <G>

Magpie

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Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:39:29 -0500
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper

I can tell..<GG>
D
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper


>
> In a message dated 3/23/03 7:03:37 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << And copper makes yer rum taste funny afer a couple a days......
>
>  >>
>
> Hmmmm..... never had rum last a couple days! <G>
>
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:45:56 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock?

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In a message dated 3/23/2003 6:35:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> According to the article and I trust the NRA to come up with
> well researched info, there were only about two thirds of the "Harpers
> Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think of the 1803
> Harper's Ferry to be.
>
>

Capt,

I'd sure like to see the research done on that article! My best source is
"United States Martial Flintlocks" by Robert M. Reilly, (published in 1986
after fifteen years of research) and he sez "It has also been speculated that
they <the 1803 Harpers Ferry> accompanied L&C into the Louisiana Territory in
1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to the time factors involved." The
US Model 1803 Type I being exclusively produced at Harpers Ferry between 1804
and 1807 (a total of 4,015)...sometime after L&C picked up some rifles there.

I not long ago sent Bead an article from the DGW's 2003 annual black powder
mag about the guns carried by L&C. The author would have you believe the
rifles L&C got at Harpers Ferry were actually the Contract Rifles from 1792,
and gives several good reasons why. The rifles were cut down from a full
stock for one reason or another, were surplus, cheap, and the only thing
available at the time. An interesting read....

Ymos,
Magpie

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/23/2003 6:35:00 PM Pacific Standa=
rd Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">According to the article and I=20=
trust the NRA to come up with<BR>
well researched info, there were only about two thirds of the "Harpers<BR>
Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think of the 1803<BR>
Harper's Ferry to be.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Capt,<BR>
<BR>
I'd sure like to see the research done on that article! My best source is "U=
nited States Martial Flintlocks" by Robert M. Reilly, (published in 1986 aft=
er fifteen years of research) and he sez "It has also been speculated that t=
hey <the 1803 Harpers Ferry> accompanied L&C into the Louisiana Te=
rritory in 1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to the time factors in=
volved." The US Model 1803 Type I being exclusively produced at Harpers Ferr=
y between 1804 and 1807 (a total of 4,015)...sometime after L&C picked u=
p some rifles there.<BR>
<BR>
I not long ago sent Bead an article from the DGW's 2003 annual black powder=20=
mag about the guns carried by L&C. The author would have you believe the=
 rifles L&C got at Harpers Ferry were actually the Contract Rifles from=20=
1792, and gives several good reasons why. The rifles were cut down from a fu=
ll stock for one reason or another, were surplus, cheap, and the only thing=20=
available at the time. An interesting read....<BR>
<BR>
Ymos,<BR>
Magpie </FONT></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 21:55:32 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Magpie,

I suspect that some research could be done through NRA. But it is a =
mystery.

Capt. L

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:45 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock?


  In a message dated 3/23/2003 6:35:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, =
[e-mail] writes:


    According to the article and I trust the NRA to come up with
    well researched info, there were only about two thirds of the =
"Harpers
    Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think of the 1803
    Harper's Ferry to be.




  Capt,

  I'd sure like to see the research done on that article! My best source =
is "United States Martial Flintlocks" by Robert M. Reilly, (published in =
1986 after fifteen years of research) and he sez "It has also been =
speculated that they <the 1803 Harpers Ferry> accompanied L&C into the =
Louisiana Territory in 1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to the =
time factors involved." The US Model 1803 Type I being exclusively =
produced at Harpers Ferry between 1804 and 1807 (a total of =
4,015)...sometime after L&C picked up some rifles there.

  I not long ago sent Bead an article from the DGW's 2003 annual black =
powder mag about the guns carried by L&C. The author would have you =
believe the rifles L&C got at Harpers Ferry were actually the Contract =
Rifles from 1792, and gives several good reasons why. The rifles were =
cut down from a full stock for one reason or another, were surplus, =
cheap, and the only thing available at the time. An interesting read....

  Ymos,
  Magpie
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Magpie,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I suspect that some research could be =
done through=20
NRA. But it is a mystery.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 23, 2003 =
8:45=20
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: 1803 =
Harpers=20
  Ferry fullstock?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">In a message dated 3/23/2003 6:35:00 PM Pacific =
Standard=20
  Time, <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=20
  writes:<BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">According to the article and I trust the NRA to come up=20
    with<BR>well researched info, there were only about two thirds of =
the=20
    "Harpers<BR>Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think =
of the=20
    1803<BR>Harper's Ferry to =
be.<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Capt,<BR><BR>I'd=20
  sure like to see the research done on that article! My best source is =
"United=20
  States Martial Flintlocks" by Robert M. Reilly, (published in 1986 =
after=20
  fifteen years of research) and he sez "It has also been speculated =
that they=20
  <the 1803 Harpers Ferry> accompanied L&C into the Louisiana=20
  Territory in 1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to the time =
factors=20
  involved." The US Model 1803 Type I being exclusively produced at =
Harpers=20
  Ferry between 1804 and 1807 (a total of 4,015)...sometime after =
L&C picked=20
  up some rifles there.<BR><BR>I not long ago sent Bead an article from =
the=20
  DGW's 2003 annual black powder mag about the guns carried by L&C. =
The=20
  author would have you believe the rifles L&C got at Harpers Ferry =
were=20
  actually the Contract Rifles from 1792, and gives several good reasons =
why.=20
  The rifles were cut down from a full stock for one reason or another, =
were=20
  surplus, cheap, and the only thing available at the time. An =
interesting=20
  read....<BR><BR>Ymos,<BR>Magpie =
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:42:59 -0700
From: Charlie P Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads...

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I will make a comment concerning the 100 plus grain loads some believe
necessary to bag big game.  I have taken deer, Elk and one Moose,  with
.54 thru .62 cal.  flint guns most rifled, and one smooth bore.   My guns
seem to like  a  load of about seventy  grains and never to exceed 75 gr.
( I personally shoot Fg, FFg and FFFg Elephant and prime with ever I put
in the barrel). have killed countless deer, 17  bull Elk and one bull
Moose with these loads.  Every single animal I have shot pretty much
dropped in their tracks.  One bull Elk  went down and lay still for a few
minutes, as I approached him he got up and stumbled about ten yards and
went down again stone dead.   I have also killed several other Elk with
.40 and .45 cal  cap guns and seventy grains.  Shot placement is far more
important to me than  a massive load that can cause a flinch  due to the
anticipation of the of the ungodly recoil.

Those who like the huge charges and swear their gun will  not shoot any
other load accurately will be greatly surprised  by a little
experimentation.   Shoot your favorite load over a fresh snow fall, or
lay a white tarp or bed sheet  on the ground under your muzzle.   Shoot
several rounds then  explain to everyone why there is so much unburned
powder  deposited on the snow or sheet.   I am in no way trying to tell
anyone what they should or should not do, simply making a comment.  A
documented fact, just a couple of years back a tiny little fourteen year
old girl shot a 48 X 4 10X  at a hundred yards shooting a cut down .54
and twenty grains of FFg.   She did this at the Colorado State Shoot.  My
 complaint on the 100 plus grain loads is they tear hell out of my steel
targets. <<gg>>  For many years I have put on "Hunters Walks" and
primitive  shoots on a  National and State level, as well as the Colorado
Springs Muzzle Loaders Memorial Day Shoot, ( The largest muzzle loading
event in Colorado, over three hundred registered shooters)  thus I have a
good deal of experience watching folks shoot all kinds of patched round
ball loads.   The lighter recoil of a lighter load is far less fatiguing
and just as accurate if you do your part of sighting in, selecting the
proper patch and ball combination, learning to breathe, relax, aim,  take
up slack and  squeeze.   The twist thing is really not a factor, accurate
loads can be worked up for any twist.  I personally prefer the slower
twists, but have seen Thompson Center Hawkens beat the field and win
overall aggregate at more State shoots than I can count. The Hawken
brothers for their own reasons favored the quicker or faster 1 in 48.
Someone else posted a chart that  tells a lot of truth.   Have fun, shoot
what ever load you want,  but shoot center.

Respectfully submitted.
Old Coyote
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I will make a comment concerning the 100 plus grain loads some believe=
=20
necessary to bag big game.  I have taken deer, Elk and one Moose, =
;=20
with .54 thru .62 cal.  flint guns most rifled, and one smooth=20
bore.   My guns seem to like  a  load of about seventy&=
nbsp;=20
grains and never to exceed 75 gr. ( I personally shoot Fg, FFg =
and=20
FFFg Elephant and prime with ever I put in the barrel). have killed=20
countless deer, 17  bull Elk and one bull Moose with these loads. =
;=20
Every single animal I have shot pretty much dropped in their tracks.  =
One=20
bull Elk  went down and lay still for a few minutes, as I approached =
him he=20
got up and stumbled about ten yards and went down again stone dead. &=
nbsp;=20
I have also killed several other Elk with .40 and .45 cal  cap=20
guns and seventy grains.  Shot placement is far more important to=
 me=20
than  a massive load that can cause a flinch  due to the =
anticipation=20
of the of the ungodly recoil.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Those who like the huge charges and swear their gun will  not =
shoot=20
any other load accurately will be greatly surprised  by a little=20
experimentation.   Shoot your favorite load over a fresh snow =
fall, or=20
lay a white tarp or bed sheet  on the ground under your muzzle. &=
nbsp;=20
Shoot several rounds then  explain to everyone why there is so much=20
unburned powder  deposited on the snow or sheet.   I am in =
no way=20
trying to tell anyone what they should or should not do, simply making a=20
comment.  A documented fact, just a couple of years back a tiny little=
=20
fourteen year old girl shot a 48 X 4 10X  at a hundred yards shooting =
a cut=20
down .54 and twenty grains of FFg.   She did this at the Colorado=
=20
State Shoot.  My  complaint on the 100 plus grain loads is they =
tear=20
hell out of my steel targets. <<gg>>  For many years I =
have put=20
on "Hunters Walks" and primitive  shoots on a  National and State=
=20
level, as well as the Colorado Springs Muzzle Loaders Memorial =
Day=20
Shoot, ( The largest muzzle loading event in Colorado, over three hundred=20
registered shooters)  thus I have a good deal of experience watching =
folks=20
shoot all kinds of patched round ball loads.   The lighter recoil=
 of a=20
lighter load is far less fatiguing and just as accurate if you do your=
 part=20
of sighting in, selecting the proper patch and ball combination, learning =
to=20
breathe, relax, aim,  take up slack and  squeeze.  =
; The=20
twist thing is really not a factor, accurate loads can be worked up for any=
=20
twist.  I personally prefer the slower twists, but have seen Thompson=
=20
Center Hawkens beat the field and win overall aggregate at more =
State=20
shoots than I can count. The Hawken brothers for their own reasons =
favored=20
the quicker or faster 1 in 48. Someone else posted a chart that  tells=
 a=20
lot of truth.   Have fun, shoot what ever load you want,  =
but=20
shoot center.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Respectfully submitted.</DIV>
<DIV>Old Coyote</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 06:50:52 -0700 (MST)
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery

Sean,
    I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their tracks
even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all
along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them.
    I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy
Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that
fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a
3 1/2"  .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the
sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was
not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains.
    I've seen, like yourself, many Grizly tracks in the mud on trails too
and that is the only fresh sign that puts fear in my heart!
    My wife decided to take the dogs and the kids on one last overnite
campout up in the mountains. I told them I didn't like them going
alone but my wife is a strong Montana born woman. She also knows how
to use her pistol. Anyway, they drove to the end of Alice Crick (near
Lincoln) where the horse camp is and started to put up the pup tent.
She let the dog run around and stretch as she and the kids put up the
pup tent. They didn't even get the put tent up and the dog came
hauling back to camp with a wolf hot on its tail. The wolf saw my wife
and kids and turned around in its hide to get out of there. My wife
also got out of there and went down lower to a campground for their
last campout of the fall! I was jelous of her as I still haven't seen
a wolf just there tracks.
    I told the government trapper about her siting and he said there was
the Alice Crick pack up there. He took note of her siting.
    I'll see you soon at Alberton Sean, track me down. Hopefully I'll have
a good turkey hunting story for you.
             bb




> I too have had that same thing happen, except it was not a canine it was
> a  predator of the feline variety. Generally when the internals are
> eaten first  you can assume feline and without absolutely  seeing claw
> marks in the track  it can be hard to say wolf or cat. Though I won't
> doubt the good sir without  seeing the kill. No doubt a wolf could do
> the same, they all love beaver  meat. I once had a beaver totally messed
> up, full of open wounds and scars.  couldn't figure it out till 3 nights
> later when I caught a 48" very grey  otter at the entrence to a lodge
> (legal in MT). He's now a very nice hat!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: <[e-mail]>
>>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery
>>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:13:52 -0700 (MST)
>>
>>Dear List,
>>         I checked my first traps of the season and caught four fat
>> beaver!
>>Only one was small the other three all blankets.
>>          The first trap I checked however was a bit of a mystery. I
>> spied
>>over the bank and instantly saw my first dead beaver floating in
>>the shallow water. Within seconds I realized that it had been
>>disemboweled. Dang eagle! I thought to myself. This would not be
>>uncommon for a golden eagle to eat on a dead exposed carcass.
>>Upon closer examination of the crime scene I realized a terrible
>>battle had taken place between this large beaver and an
>>unidentified canine, a very large canine! I recognized the canine
>> tracks as ones I have seen crossing through this ranch several
>>times before. This large ranch is only 40 miles from the front
>>range of the Rockies as the crow flies, or as the wolf runs! The
>>rancher told me to keep an eye out for wolves. I thought he was
>>just kidding but after cutting these tracks on several occasions
>>since last fall I was beginning to think he knew or saw something I
>> didn't know. I have cut wolf tracks before and know them when I see
>> them. He always traveled alone and was seemingly on a
>>mission, not meandering about like dogs do. That combined with
>>the remote location in close proximity to the Front Range made me sure
>> it was indeed a wolf kill!
>>          The beaver also suffered a fate similar to a wild animal
>> attack
>>not the random killing of a domesticated dog. He was disemboweled
>> cleanly with all his internal organs being eaten excepting his
>>small intestine. I'm sure the beaver would have been carried away
>> altogether had it not been held firmly in my foot hold trap.
>>          I am not one to waste a pelt so thought I could salvage it as
>> it
>>was only cleanly split open down the belly. After I removed it
>>from the trap and examined it's back I saw it was a total loss.
>>Horrendous wounds inflicted by the beast destroyed his back.
>>Most the wounds were on its head and front half of its body. This
>> beaver took his licks facing his foe and putting up a vicious
>>counter attack I'm sure. A live beaver is not an animal to take
>>lightly especially when caught in a trap. I did not see blood on
>>the shore but I hope Mr. Beaver got his licks in!
>>          I don't know why the beaver sat on shore after being caught;
>> the
>>trap was not tangled on anything. Perhaps the wolf came along the
>> instant the beaver was caught. I checked my traps very early that day
>> so only the owls know the real story.
>>          In my 20 years of beaver trapping this is the first time I
>> ever
>>lost one to a predator. I did not reset the trap as I know this
>>robber will visit it again for a second meal. If it were not
>>considered a crime more serious than  the taking of a human life
>>I would have hanged the area with snares and reaped revenge upon
>>this four legged thief. I would have avenged the poor beaver and
>>given the devil dog a taste of his own medicine.
>>              beaverboy
>>
>>
>>
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