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hist_text-digest       Friday, February 7 2003       Volume 01 : Number 1149



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Sorry, Beaverboy
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sorry, Geri
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sorry, Geri
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sorry, Geri
-áááááá MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pecatonica Kits and  .54 twists
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sorry, Geri and Colters a liar
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pecatonica Kits and  .54 twists
-áááááá MtMan-List: handling of beaver pelts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:19:56 -0700
From: "busterize" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sorry, Beaverboy

Despite the media picturing authors as all rich and famous, the majority of
us cannot always afford to go flying (or even driving) off to the exotic
locales we want to write about. Most writers are poorly paid unless your
name is Stephen King. I have been in the journalism business since the
mid-1960s, trained hard and long on newspapers before -- gasp -- computers.
I have been an editor, typesetter, proofreader and author, and have learned
how to research and dig out information -- in libraries, museums, through
organizations that deal with the subject matter I am researching. Plus many,
many personal interviews.

I've had my work published in national magazines, etc. Now that I have begun
writing novels (and, also non fiction) I have reams of research books on the
fur trade, journals and diaries --  but surprise -- this list is also
considered research because many of you have been fortunate enough to be
able to go out there and trap, camp and live as close as possible to those
days. Something I, and millions of others who enjoy reading novels, have
not.

It's your choice not to read novels. But no need to badmouth the many who
do.

Geri



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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:34:13 -0700 (MST)
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sorry, Geri

  Calling novel readers romantics should not be considered badmouthing.
  I just don't understand how a writer can ask the list something
like,"Hey I'm getting a book published on the fur trade and I was
wondering how do you load a gun anyway?" or some other very basic
question. It makes a guy wonder how accurate the rest of the book is.
   Artist can be just as bad. I have a nice Clymer print given to me on my
wall. It is of trappers dancing around a campfire. Nice print except for
one major flaw. All the hooped beaver are solid leather, no eyes, no ear,
no leg holes, nothing. Big flaw. This can only be due to lack of the most
basic research on Clymer's part or he just didn't care about putting the
detail in. Either way it ruins the whole print for the discriminating eye.
Not a big deal if you don't care about details or facts.
   I have nothing against people who read novels, I get a kick out of you
guys cause, your romantics. If a novel is made into a movie I might even
rent it but at least I will only have squandered ninety minutes of my life
that way.
           Just my opinion,
                   beaverboy


> Despite the media picturing authors as all rich and famous, the
> majority of us cannot always afford to go flying (or even driving) off
> to the exotic locales we want to write about. Most writers are poorly
> paid unless your name is Stephen King. I have been in the journalism
> business since the mid-1960s, trained hard and long on newspapers
> before -- gasp -- computers. I have been an editor, typesetter,
> proofreader and author, and have learned how to research and dig out
> information -- in libraries, museums, through organizations that deal
> with the subject matter I am researching. Plus many, many personal
> interviews.
> list is also considered research because many of you have been
> fortunate enough to be able to go out there and trap, camp and live as
> close as possible to those days. Something I, and millions of others
> who enjoy reading novels, have not.
>
> It's your choice not to read novels. But no need to badmouth the many
> who do.
>
> Geri
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:19:59 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sorry, Geri

beaverboy,

I can't say I felt you were way out of line and really bad mouthing folks
cause they like to read novels or more correctly, fiction. It was obvious to
me that you were stating your considered opinion. And I certainly understand
what it's like to have a Clymer print and know the beaver pelts are wrong.
Still they are beautiful paintings, my wife's aunt is related and she has
several originals hanging in her house across town from me. I've heard that
Clymer and his wife did a lot of research to make their paintings as
accurate as could be without actually having been there and for the most
part he did a good job. For a long time his paintings were the standard for
western art of that era.

You of course are aware that Miller and other contemporary artists
"doctored" up their paintings from their original field sketches? Does that
take anything away from their artistry  or even their value to us? Only if
you don't take that into consideration when you work up your outfit I
suppose.

Speaking of which........I've been in the muzzle loading game for a long
time and I've been doing the mt. man thing for a long time and I have
discarded a lot of stuff cause I found out it wasn't "proper" and that was
important to me. Even though I am now "more" correct I have gotten away from
critiquing others and their gear just cause it ain't polite and cause I may
be wrong and cause I was there once too.

You don't like novels cause they aren't fact. You don't like Clymer's
paintings cause they have flaws. The big question? Is your gear 100%
perfect? Do you know all the answers pertaining to the Mt. Man or any
history your interested in, how they did things, dressed, lived, ate? Are
you sure? Or is part of your stuff really fiction?

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 21:10:59 -0800
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sorry, Geri

Capt Lahti my friend...

Good to see you're still out there and willing to share your thoughts. As
usual, I happen to agree with what you said and how you said it. I have
occasionally been known to mis-speak my opinion (well, once anyway)
so I am slowing learning I'm often better off saying nothing at all.
Cold here along the Wasatch tonight, hope all my brothers are weathering
well!

Teton


On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:19:59 -0800 "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> beaverboy,
>
> I can't say I felt you were way out of line and really bad mouthing
> folks
> cause they like to read novels or more correctly, fiction. It was
> obvious to
> me that you were stating your considered opinion. And I certainly
> understand
> what it's like to have a Clymer print and know the beaver pelts are
> wrong.
> Still they are beautiful paintings, my wife's aunt is related and
> she has
> several originals hanging in her house across town from me. I've
> heard that
> Clymer and his wife did a lot of research to make their paintings
> as
> accurate as could be without actually having been there and for the
> most
> part he did a good job. For a long time his paintings were the
> standard for
> western art of that era.
>
> You of course are aware that Miller and other contemporary artists
> "doctored" up their paintings from their original field sketches?
> Does that
> take anything away from their artistry  or even their value to us?
> Only if
> you don't take that into consideration when you work up your outfit
> I
> suppose.
>
> Speaking of which........I've been in the muzzle loading game for a
> long
> time and I've been doing the mt. man thing for a long time and I
> have
> discarded a lot of stuff cause I found out it wasn't "proper" and
> that was
> important to me. Even though I am now "more" correct I have gotten
> away from
> critiquing others and their gear just cause it ain't polite and
> cause I may
> be wrong and cause I was there once too.
>
> You don't like novels cause they aren't fact. You don't like
> Clymer's
> paintings cause they have flaws. The big question? Is your gear
> 100%
> perfect? Do you know all the answers pertaining to the Mt. Man or
> any
> history your interested in, how they did things, dressed, lived,
> ate? Are
> you sure? Or is part of your stuff really fiction?
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
> ---------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:19:01 -0700
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C2CE36.199583A0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Teton Todd wrote:

Cold here along the Wasatch tonight, hope all my brothers are weathering
well!

Well, Todd, you be the judge.  Down here in north Texas....where we had =
79 degrees not five days ago....the Texas/Oklahoma Brigade are gathering =
in a cedar brake east of Dallas for a 4 day camp with a forecast of low =
20's and snow, with maybe a little sleet thrown in for spice.  I know =
that kind of weather makes you cold country folks think spring has =
arrived early, but us thin blooded Texians are going to have to sit =
around fragrant cedar fires with our brothers and sip overpriced likker =
all weekend.  If you can make it to DFW airport by noon Friday I'll pick =
you up and lend you a bedroll.  =20


 Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays

- ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C2CE36.199583A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1126" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Teton Todd =
wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Cold here along the Wasatch tonight, =
hope all=20
my brothers are weathering<BR>well!<BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Well, Todd, you be the =
judge. =20
Down here in north Texas....where we had 79 degrees not five =
days=20
ago....the Texas/Oklahoma Brigade are gathering in a cedar brake east of =
Dallas=20
for a 4 day camp with a forecast of low 20's and snow, with maybe a =
little sleet=20
thrown in for spice.  I know that kind of weather makes =
you cold=20
country folks think spring has arrived early, but us thin blooded =
Texians=20
are going to have to sit around fragrant cedar fires with our=20
brothers and sip overpriced likker all weekend.  If =
you can=20
make it to DFW airport by noon Friday I'll pick you up and =
lend you a=20
bedroll.   </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney =
Ratcliff<BR></FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
size=3D4>[e-mail]</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D4>______________________________________________________________<B=
R>Aux=20
Aliments du Pays<BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C2CE36.199583A0--



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:42:04 -0800
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600

This message is in MIME format.  Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ----__JNP_000_34cd.0e44.6869
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lanney,


Thanks for the invite Big Feller. Spending time around the fire with you
hosses would be a pleasure I'm sure. Cold is cold wherever you measure
it. Have a good one my friend!

Teton

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:19:01 -0700 "Lanney Ratcliff"
<[e-mail]> writes:
Teton Todd wrote:

Cold here along the Wasatch tonight, hope all my brothers are weathering
well!

Well, Todd, you be the judge.  Down here in north Texas....where we had
79 degrees not five days ago....the Texas/Oklahoma Brigade are gathering
in a cedar brake east of Dallas for a 4 day camp with a forecast of low
20's and snow, with maybe a little sleet thrown in for spice.  I know
that kind of weather makes you cold country folks think spring has
arrived early, but us thin blooded Texians are going to have to sit
around fragrant cedar fires with our brothers and sip overpriced likker
all weekend.  If you can make it to DFW airport by noon Friday I'll pick
you up and lend you a bedroll.


 Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays
- ----__JNP_000_34cd.0e44.6869
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Lanney,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for the invite Big Feller. Spending time around the fire with =
you=20
hosses would be a pleasure I'm sure. Cold is cold wherever you measure it. =
Have=20
a good one my friend!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Teton</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:19:01 -0700 "Lanney Ratcliff" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>&=
gt;=20
writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-LEFT: =
10px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Teton Todd wrote:</FONT></=
DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Cold here along the Wasatch tonight, =
hope=20
  all my brothers are weathering<BR>well!<BR></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Well, Todd, you be the judge=
. =20
  Down here in north Texas....where we had 79 degrees not five =
days=20
  ago....the Texas/Oklahoma Brigade are gathering in a cedar brake east of=
=20
  Dallas for a 4 day camp with a forecast of low 20's and snow, with maybe =
a=20
  little sleet thrown in for spice.  I know that kind of weather =
makes=20
  you cold country folks think spring has arrived early, but us =
thin=20
  blooded Texians are going to have to sit around fragrant cedar =
fires=20
  with our brothers and sip overpriced likker all weekend.&=
nbsp;=20
  If you can make it to DFW airport by noon Friday I'll pick you =
up=20
  and lend you a bedroll.   </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV> <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney Ratcliff<BR></=
FONT><A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=
=20
  size=3D4>[e-mail]</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=3D"Times New=
 Roman"=20
  size=3D4>______________________________________________________________<=
BR>Aux=20
  Aliments du Pays<BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ----__JNP_000_34cd.0e44.6869--


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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:54:26 -0800
From: "Ben" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pecatonica Kits and  .54 twists

Hello the camp,
Hi beaverboy.  Not trying to start a controversy but this is an excerpt form
one of your previous posts.

>I'm a poor trapper so this will be my one and only flintlock rifle so
I need to make the right choice.
    I appreciate your advice and knowledge and thank you in advance.
                  beaverboy<

This is all I was trying to do when I asked for information about the
handling of beaver pelts after they were dressed.   Get the advice and
knowledge that I knew was on this list.  The funny part is I posted because
of  your post about selling your pelts.  I figured if anyone knew about
beaver pelts it would be you.   Anyway it turned out I didn't have to
re-write about that. My original description was correct.

However, your point and those of others on the list about the time line was
well taken.   I've started the re-write on that.  It entails a little more
than I first thought because I have to catch a bunch of little
details....like the .36 Patterson Colt is no longer a "proteetype" but is
now a regular run manufacture pistol.  Although this is a novel of fiction,
I would like it to be as historically correct as I can make it.

By the way,  I didn't consider your post as badmouthing or bashing.  Just
your opinion.  Writer's usually get kinda thick skinned or they don't stay
writer's long.
I was surprised about your not liking to read novels of the fur trade
(although mine isn't a novel of the fur trade, the fur trade does play a
significant part in it.  It's a novel of a family settling the west, and
indian raid, and a young man's search for his kidnapped sister.)  On the
other hand I don't like to read science fiction.  Can't make heads or tails
of it.

Happy Trails and Good Trapping

Ben

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 6:12 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Pecatonica Kits and .54 twists


> Dear List,
>     I sold my beaver pelts and did better than I expected thus I am able
> to move up in the world from fusee to rifle! Or at least move out in
range.
>     Does anyone have any comments concerning Pecatonica River flintlock
> rifle kits? Or any other high quality kits. I'm looking for a good .54
> swamped barrel rifle kit. Pecatonica River looks pretty good to me.
>     I've also heard that a 1-72" or 1-80" twist is the best for the .54
> with heavy powder loads (100-120grs). Any comments about that?
>     I'm a poor trapper so this will be my one and only flintlock rifle so
> I need to make the right choice.
>     I appreciate your advice and knowledge and thank you in advance.
>                   beaverboy
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:06:48 -0700 (MST)
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sorry, Geri and Colters a liar

> You don't like novels cause they aren't fact. You don't like Clymer's
> paintings cause they have flaws. The big question? Is your gear 100%
> perfect? Do you know all the answers pertaining to the Mt. Man or any
> history your interested in, how they did things, dressed, lived, ate?
> Are you sure? Or is part of your stuff really fiction?

  The answers to your questions are all no, but I'm not writing a book or
selling paintings on the subject either. That is my whole point, once you
start selling artwork and articles or books on the subject you should be
as accurate as possible and not have obvious oversights in the details.
  I don't care much how other primitive trekers dress, camp, or what they
say but put it in print or give a lecture on the subject and it better be
accurate.
  Writers and lecturers have thick skin, they're used to having their work
scrutinized.
  Another interesting lecturer going around is a Blackfoot Indian from up
here in Browning, Montana. I believe his name is Curly Bear something. I
don't want to get his name wrong. Anyway his big thing is disputing the
whole Colter Run theory. He basically says Colter was a liar and didn't
out run the BLackfeet like he said he did. "No white man could EVER out
run a Blackfoot!" he says. Well, I'm sorry, Colter was never known to be a
braggart or liar and was held in high esteem by both Captain Lewis &
Clark. I think I might believe the two captains over someone who did not
know the man. I tried to talk to him after one of his lectures and he
wouldn't even speak with us. Just another case of rewriting history.
  Life is too short to argue over small things but history should be as
accurate as possible.
               beaverboy




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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:44:27 -0700 (MST)
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pecatonica Kits and  .54 twists

Ben wrote,
> This is all I was trying to do when I asked for information about the
> handling of beaver pelts after they were dressed.   Get the advice and
> knowledge that I knew was on this list.  The funny part is I posted
> because of  your post about selling your pelts.  I figured if anyone
> knew about beaver pelts it would be you.   Anyway it turned out I
> didn't have to re-write about that. My original description was
> correct.

Capt. wrote concerning beaver hides,

Did they tan them?

No time Ben.

> Salt them down?

No salt.

 They'd have to do something to preserve the
> skin......but what?

Just scrape off the fat and meat and air dry till the hide turns to
rawhide.
Other than bugs, the hide will last forever, likewise the fur (baring any
bugs of course).

  Speaking of the original posts on the subject.  Capt wrote that dry
hides will last forever. No hide will last forever especially exposed to
the enivoriment. Bugs, heat, moisture, mildew, direct sunlight, gnawing
rodents and scavengers can all destroy a dried pelt quickly. Leaving pelts
in an unguarded cache was the last time many pelts were ever seen. I
couldn't even imagine leaving some hard earned pelts buried in the earth.
  Tanned pelts last much longer (still not forever) but they did not need
to be tanned for the hat trade so why work harder than you have to.
However many tanned beaver hides were purchased for the hat trade from
indians. No time to tan them? The mountain men had more time than anything
didn't they? If the pelts were required by the buyer to be tanned the
trappers would have found the time to tan them. Wasn't necessary, so no
need to do it. Just as the willow hoops were never peeled of the bark, no
need to.
  No salt? Capt. how can you say they had no salt? I know they had salt,
at least when near the ocean or soon after leaving a fort or settlement
they just weren't going to waste it on drying or preserving pelts. I bet
salt may have been used in the east near the big salt mines but I don't
know that for sure. Lewis & Clarks men didn't spend weeks boiling sea
water around the clock for salt to put on a hide or pelt unless they were
going to eat that pelt.
  Anyway Ben, no hard feelings at all. Never meant there to be any hard
feelings with anyone. I just have always found the truth to be much more
interesting than fiction. Just my opinion from around the campfire.
               beaverboy








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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 04:19:41 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: handling of beaver pelts

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Beaverboy
Just in the sprit of being around the campfire I would like to point out a
couple of things here. I know you be a trappin fool and have sent your share
of traps and then some. But you have made some statements that I'll just have
to bring to your attention.
You said:
I have a nice Clymer print given to me on my
wall. It is of trappers dancing around a campfire. Nice print except for
one major flaw. All the hooped beaver are solid leather, no eyes, no ear,
no leg holes, nothing. Big flaw.

 As for leg holes don't you sew yours up or tack them closed when drying.
Tell the truth what always bothered me about this picture was the crock jug
in it, fringed capote and the war shirt more then lack of detail on the
hides.

You said:
. Leaving pelts in an unguarded cache was the last time many pelts were ever
seen. I
couldn't even imagine leaving some hard earned pelts buried in the earth.


To answer that I give you this from a Letter from William H. Ashley to Gen.
Henry Atkinson this was not a one time deal but was done a lot in the fur
trade.

On the 2nd day of july, I set out on my way homewards with 50 men, 25 of whom
were to accompany me to a navigable point of the Big Horn river, thence to
return with the horses employed in the transportation of the furs. I had
forty-five packs of beaver cached a few miles east of our direct route. I
took with me 20 men, passed by the place, raised the cache, and proceeded in
a direction to join the other party, but, previous to joining them, I was
twice attacked by Indians first by a party of Blackfeet about 60 in number

Well, that is what they did the caches were made to try and protect the hides
from gnawing rodents and scavengers and  moisture which causes mildew. They
where made and covered in secrecy and all evidence of them covered up to try
and protect them from being found and robed and yes they did lose some things
that were cached by someone else finding them or things getting wet but it
was better then packing them all over the country with them.

As for salt your right there was several places here in the Rockies where
they could get salt and they did not have to go all the away to the ocean to
get it. Salt Lake for one, in Star Valley, Wyoming there are several creeks
that come in to the salt river that was used to make salt to name just a
couple. Did they use it for hides your right, hell no it was to much work
just to get enough for there meat!

Any way I just had to through my two cents in when you said I couldn't even
imagine leaving some hard earned pelts buried in the earth.  Cause that is
what they did as hard as it sounds on the hides.

For me a novel needs to be written in a way that shows the writer knows what
they are talking about to hold my intrust. That is why I like reading
Journals and first hand accounts more. But if a writer comes to this list and
sits in and asks questions we should be flattered and try to help them if we
can to make there works better is the way I see it.
See down the trail
Crazy Cyot




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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Beaverboy
<BR>Just in the sprit of being around the campfire I would like to point out=
 a couple of things here. I know you be a trappin fool and have sent your sh=
are of traps and then some. But you have made some statements that I'll just=
 have to bring to your attention.
<BR>You said:
<BR>I have a nice Clymer print given to me on my
<BR>wall. It is of trappers dancing around a campfire. Nice print except for
<BR>one major flaw. All the hooped beaver are solid leather, no eyes, no ear=
,
<BR>no leg holes, nothing. Big flaw.=20
<BR>
<BR> As for leg holes don't you sew yours up or tack them closed when drying=
. Tell the truth what always bothered me about this picture was the crock ju=
g in it, fringed capote and the war shirt more then lack of detail on the hi=
des.=20
<BR>
<BR>You said:
<BR>. Leaving pelts in an unguarded cache was the last time many pelts were=20=
ever seen. I
<BR>couldn't even imagine leaving some hard earned pelts buried in the earth=
.
<BR>=20
<BR>
<BR>To answer that I give you this from a Letter from William H. Ashley to G=
en. Henry Atkinson this was not a one time deal but was done a lot in the fu=
r trade.
<BR>
<BR>On the 2nd day of july, I set out on my way homewards with 50 men, 25 of=
 whom were to accompany me to a navigable point of the Big Horn river, thenc=
e to return with the horses employed in the transportation of the furs. I ha=
d forty-five packs of beaver cached a few miles east of our direct route. I=20=
took with me 20 men, passed by the place, raised the cache, and proceeded in=
 a direction to join the other party, but, previous to joining them, I was t=
wice attacked by Indians first by a party of Blackfeet about 60 in number
<BR>
<BR>Well, that is what they did the caches were made to try and protect the=20=
hides from gnawing rodents and scavengers and  moisture which causes mildew.=
 They where made and covered in secrecy and all evidence of them covered up=20=
to try and protect them from being found and robed and yes they did lose som=
e things that were cached by someone else finding them or things getting wet=
 but it was better then packing them all over the country with them.
<BR>
<BR>As for salt your right there was several places here in the Rockies wher=
e they could get salt and they did not have to go all the away to the ocean=20=
to get it. Salt Lake for one, in Star Valley, Wyoming there are several cree=
ks that come in to the salt river that was used to make salt to name just a=20=
couple. Did they use it for hides your right, hell no it was to much work ju=
st to get enough for there meat!
<BR>
<BR>Any way I just had to through my two cents in when you said I couldn't e=
ven imagine leaving some hard earned pelts buried in the earth.  Cause=20=
that is what they did as hard as it sounds on the hides.
<BR>
<BR>For me a novel needs to be written in a way that shows the writer knows=20=
what they are talking about to hold my intrust. That is why I like reading J=
ournals and first hand accounts more. But if a writer comes to this list and=
 sits in and asks questions we should be flattered and try to help them if w=
e can to make there works better is the way I see it.
<BR>See down the trail=20
<BR>Crazy Cyot
<BR>
<BR>
<BR> </FONT></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:43:55 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600

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In a message dated 2/6, [e-mail] writes:

<< ----( stuff deleted )---- the Texas/Oklahoma Brigade are gathering in a
cedar brake east of Dallas for a 4 day camp with a forecast of low 20's and
snow, with maybe a little sleet thrown in for spice. ----( stuff deleted
)---- >>

Lanney,

   As an over the road truck driver, I had the opportunity to drive in all 48
continental states in bad weather.  When you hit it, you just keep on
truckin', and I did.  Until I hit one inch of snow at rush hour in Dallas.
Nothing ever scared the crap outta me like that did.  I figger you boys will
be better off in that cedar break outside of Dallas!!!!!    Just an
observation.  ;-)

Longshot

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/6, [e-mail] wri=
tes:
<BR>
<BR><< </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D4 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=
=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">----( stuff deleted )----</FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> </FONT=
><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D4 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman"=
 LANG=3D"0">the Texas/Oklahoma Brigade are gathering in a cedar brake east o=
f Dallas for a 4 day camp with a forecast of low 20's and snow, with maybe a=
 little sleet thrown in for spice. ----( stuff deleted )---- >></FONT>=
<FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman"=20=
LANG=3D"0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">Lanney,
<BR>
<BR>   As an over the road truck driver, I had the opportunity to=20=
drive in all 48 continental states in bad weather.  When you hit it, yo=
u just keep on truckin', and I did.  Until I hit one inch of snow at ru=
sh hour in Dallas.  Nothing ever scared the crap outta me like that did=
.  I figger you boys will be better off in that cedar break outside of=20=
Dallas!!!!!    Just an observation.  ;-)
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D5 FACE=3D"BATAVIA" LANG=3D"0">L</=
FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D4 FACE=3D"BATAVIA" LANG=3D"0">ongshot</=
FONT></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 19:58:31 -0700
From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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on 2/7/03 7:43 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

In a message dated 2/6, [e-mail] writes:

<< ----( stuff deleted )---- the Texas/Oklahoma Brigade are gathering in a
cedar brake east of Dallas for a 4 day camp with a forecast of low 20's and
snow, with maybe a little sleet thrown in for spice. ----( stuff deleted
)---- >>

Lanney,

  As an over the road truck driver, I had the opportunity to drive in all 48
continental states in bad weather.  When you hit it, you just keep on
truckin', and I did.  Until I hit one inch of snow at rush hour in Dallas.
Nothing ever scared the crap outta me like that did.  I figger you boys will
be better off in that cedar break outside of Dallas!!!!!    Just an
observation.  ;-)

Longshot

Lanney,
Checking out the window this morning, the sun hasen't come over the mountain
peaks on the Wasatch front yet, The sky is clear and bright blue there is
not even a breeze but the temperature is "0" and we will only get to about
"27" for the high today. 90 days from today it will be in the 80's and 90's
and you will be clost to the 100's. You boys enjoy  the camp and the joy of
living the way Bridger and the boy's did.
Ole

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
on 2/7/03 7:43 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">In a message dated 2/6, lanne=
[e-mail] writes: <BR>
<BR>
<< </FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman">----( st=
uff deleted )----</FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT></F=
ONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman">the Texas/Oklahoma Brigade a=
re gathering in a cedar brake east of Dallas for a 4 day camp with a forecas=
t of low 20's and snow, with maybe a little sleet thrown in for spice. ----(=
 stuff deleted )---- >></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"> <BR=
>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Lanney, <BR>
<BR>
   As an over the road truck driver, I had the opportunity to dri=
ve in all 48 continental states in bad weather.  When you hit it, you j=
ust keep on truckin', and I did.  Until I hit one inch of snow at rush =
hour in Dallas.  Nothing ever scared the crap outta me like that did. &=
nbsp;I figger you boys will be better off in that cedar break outside of Dal=
las!!!!!    Just an observation.  ;-) <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5">L</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4">ongshot</FONT> <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Lanney,<BR>
Checking out the window this morning, the sun hasen't come over the mountai=
n peaks on the Wasatch front yet, The sky is clear and bright blue there is =
not even a breeze but the temperature is "0" and we will only get =
to about "27" for the high today. 90 days from today it will be in=
 the 80's and 90's and you will be clost to the 100's. You boys enjoy  =
the camp and the joy of living the way Bridger and the boy's did.<BR>
Ole
</BODY>
</HTML>


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:44:26 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Yeah, the drivers here are divided into about three groups....those who =
don't have a clue how to drive in that stuff (the vast majority), those =
who grew up driving in it but forgot how when they moved down here and =
those who know how to drive in it but choose to keep off the roads due =
to the other two groups.  I lived for several years in the Missouri =
Ozarks and drove several winters in the snow and ice up there so I just =
hunker down whenever possible and watch the fender-benders on the TV =
news.  I'm looking forward to those cedar fires, though, so I'm heading =
out.
Lanney
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:43 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:18:47 -0600


  In a message dated 2/6, [e-mail] writes:=20

  << ----( stuff deleted )---- the Texas/Oklahoma Brigade are gathering =
in a cedar brake east of Dallas for a 4 day camp with a forecast of low =
20's and snow, with maybe a little sleet thrown in for spice. ----( =
stuff deleted )---- >>=20

  Lanney,=20

    As an over the road truck driver, I had the opportunity to drive in =
all 48 continental states in bad weather.  When you hit it, you just =
keep on truckin', and I did.  Until I hit one inch of snow at rush hour =
in Dallas.  Nothing ever scared the crap outta me like that did.  I =
figger you boys will be better off in that cedar break outside of =
Dallas!!!!!    Just an observation.  ;-)=20

  Longshot
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1126" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Yeah, the drivers here are =
divided into=20
about three groups....those who don't have a clue how to drive in that =
stuff=20
(the vast majority), those who grew up driving in it but forgot how when =
they=20
moved down here and those who know how to drive in it but choose to keep =
off the=20
roads due to the other two groups.  I lived for several years in =
the=20
Missouri Ozarks and drove several winters in the snow and ice up there =
so I just=20
hunker down whenever possible and watch the fender-benders on the TV =
news. =20
I'm looking forward to those cedar fires, though, so I'm heading=20
out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 07, 2003 =
8:43=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Date: =
Thu, 6 Feb=20
  2003 23:18:47 -0600</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">In a message dated 2/6, <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
=20
  writes: <BR><BR><< </FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D4 FAMILY=3D"SERIF">----( stuff deleted =
)----</FONT><FONT=20
  lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"> =
</FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D4 FAMILY=3D"SERIF">the =
Texas/Oklahoma=20
  Brigade are gathering in a cedar brake east of Dallas for a 4 day camp =
with a=20
  forecast of low 20's and snow, with maybe a little sleet thrown in for =
spice.=20
  ----( stuff deleted )---- >></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF"> <BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
lang=3D0 face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Lanney, =
<BR><BR>  As an over=20
  the road truck driver, I had the opportunity to drive in all 48 =
continental=20
  states in bad weather.  When you hit it, you just keep on =
truckin', and I=20
  did.  Until I hit one inch of snow at rush hour in Dallas. =
 Nothing=20
  ever scared the crap outta me like that did.  I figger you boys =
will be=20
  better off in that cedar break outside of Dallas!!!!! =
   Just=20
  an observation.  ;-) <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DBATAVIA =

  color=3D#000000 size=3D5>L</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DBATAVIA =
color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D4>ongshot</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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