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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1148 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, February 5 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1148 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:47:20 -0700 From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone <html> John - An interesting interpretation of Colter's route. Thanks for taking the time to post it. For everybody's reference, Clark's manuscript map can be viewed at: <a= href=3D"http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/haines1/images/ieem1.jpg= "= eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/haines1/image= s/ieem1.jpg</a> A question: On Clark's (manuscript) map, it shows Colter's route being along the west shore of Lake Eustis (Yellowstone), then circling east around the north end of the lake then following the large river at the outlet until he forded the river where he noted "hot springs brimstone". Was there a typo in your route description, or do you believe Clark got that wrong? If Colter's route was between the Lake and the Absorokas, why would he need to ford the Yellowstone to go up the Lamar? regards, Dean Rudy At 07:03 PM 2/5/03 -0700, you wrote: <blockquote type=3Dcite cite>Ho, the list, =A0 Well, Crazy, I'm partly to blame since some of my articles and books on early mapping and exploration of the Rockies have given a different interpretation of Clark's map than you indicate. In fact, Clark's map proves my thesis about Colter's route rather than the other way around--but you have to use Clark's manuscript rather than the published edition. =A0 Let me begin by saying that I grew up i= n the Cody area, worked for the Forest Service in Dubois, in the Wind River valley, and know the area "like the back of my hand." Clark's 1810 map (the manuscript version--not the engraved published version) shows Colter's route as staying east of the Continental Divide.=A0The lake that=A0most historians have assumed is Jackson Lake on the map (yes, there was a lake there--the present dam has just made it bigger) is not Jackson Lake at all but Brooks Lake just east of the Continental Divide at Togwotee Pass. Clark's map clearly shows this lake as the source of the Wind River/Big Horn and clearly shows the mountains dividing the Wind River drainage from the "Lewis's River" or Snake drainage as west of the lake--a pretty darn good rendition of the geography of the upper Wind River. The map does not show the Tetons or any other recognizable features west of the Continental Divide. So: Biddle Lake is not Jackson Lake but Brooks Lake and Lake Eustis is, as you indicate Yellowstone Lake. =A0 We know for a fact that the thermal activity noted by Colter was in the vicinity of Cody, Wyoming since a manuscript map drawn by Clark from sketches by both Colter and George Drouillard render the geography of the Cody area perfectly: the South Fork and North Fork of the Shoshone coming together west of the canyon, Heart Mountain to the north of the river, and "boiling springs" to the east of the Shoshone Canyon--right where the Cody Stampede rodeo grounds now sit. In fact, across the highway from the rodeo grounds is an inactive geyser cone with travertine deposits recent enough to suggest that it was active when Colter was there and he probably saw an eruption=A0since he described it to Clark. The Demaris Hot Springs are in the same area and, although less active now, were active enough when I was a boy in the 40s and 50s to attract tourists to "take the waters." =A0 Here is my interpretation of Colter's route, based on 35 years of study: from Lisa's fort at the mouth of the Big Horn, across the Pryor Mountains to the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone, possibly up the Clark's Fork into the Sunlight Basin and then back out to the area just south of where the Clark's Fork comes out of the mountains. From there, Colter headed south, crossed the low drainage divide to the Shoshone with Heart Mountain on his left. He spent some time in the Cody area, probably didn't go through the canyon but around the southern end of Cedar Mountain to the junction of the South and North Forks of the Shoshone. He may have tried to go up the South Fork in search of a route to the south but was probably stymied by the terrain and the snow. (Remember he was on foot and traveling in January-February.) The mountains on the south side of the southern branch of the Shoshone rise almost vertically from the valley floor--not something that any reasonable man would have tried to scale in mid-winter. I've crossed several of the passes between the Shoshone drainage and the Wind River drainage in this area and on most of them, got off my horse and led her rather than staying aboard--and I'm not afraid of heights!. So Colter probably came back down the South Fork, around the southern end of Carter Mountain, south across the Greybull River (just west of Meteetsee, Wyoming, and then across a low pass in the Owl Creek Mountains west of Thermopolis, Wyoming to the Wind River (if he'd gone through the Wind River Canyon, he surely would have noted it when he conveyed information to Clark). He traveled up the Wind River to its source in Brooks Lake, then turned north along the eastern base of the mountains (remember the steep cliffs in the movie "Mountain Man"?--those are the mountains west of Brooks Lake) through Turpin Meadows and into what is now Yellowstone. He probably skirted Yellowstone Lake on the east, staying between the lake and the Absarokas, forded the river at the traditional Shoshone crossing downstream from the Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone (again, there is no evidence that he saw the Grand Canyon because that feature doesn't appear on Clark's map either). In the vicinity of the junction of the Yellowstone and Lamar, he fell in with a group of Bannock Shoshones, heading for the buffalo hunting grounds of the Great Plains. Traveling with the Indians, he crossed between the Lamar River drainage and the Clark's Fork drainage over what we now call "Colter's Pass"--near present-day Cooke City, Montana--and down the Clark's Fork through the Sunlight Basin country, probably crossing over Dead Indian Hill (just like the Nez Perce would do 70 years later in their flight from the US Army), to the Shoshone River and down the Shoshone to its junction with the Big Horn and down the Big Horn to Lisa's fort. =A0 Let me stress that this is the only route that is consistent with the information presented on Clark's 1810 manuscript map, and the Clark map of the Big Horn Basin drawn from information provided by Colter and Droulliard. Unfortunately, in producing the engraving for the 1814 published edition of Clark's map, Samuel Lewis (the engraver and no relation to Meriwether) misread some of Clark's manuscript and showed Colter's route crossing the Continental Divide all right and then turning and recrossing into the Yellowstone drainage. What river was Colter on, according to the published map, when he crossed the Divide just west of the Wind River? Why the Rio del Norte, of course--and that's the term used by Clark and others to describe the Rio Grande! For sure, according to the 1814 map, Colter was not on the Snake--and he wasn't on the Snake according to Clark's manuscript either. =A0 One more comment: at the Teton N.P. headquarters at Moose, there is a rock roughly carved into the shape of a man's head with the name "J. Colter" inscribed on it. This rock was turned up in a farmer's field in Idaho, west of Teton Pass and the Teton Range in the 1930s and has been used as proof that Colter was in Jackson's Hole, crossed Teton Pass, and--for reasons that no one has ever been able to explain--spent precious time carving a rock into the shape of a man's head and inscribing his name into it. There are several things wrong with this piece of evidence: first, why in the world would Colter ever have done such a thing?; second, Colter couldn't read or write--even his own name (in the Lewis and Clark Expedition records, he's made a mark next to a signature obviously written by Lewis); third, a letter from a soldier accompanying the Hayden expedition into Yellowstone and the Tetons in 1872 describes how this soldier "hoaxed" others by carving the names of early explorers on rocks, trees, etc. =A0 If you want a reading list, please contact me off-list as this message is already far too long. =A0 Watch the skyline. =A0 John =A0 Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 e-mail: <a= href=3D"mailto:jlallen@wyoming.com">jlallen@wyoming.com</a><blockquo= te> <dl> <dd>----- Original Message -----=20 <dd>From: <a href=3D"mailto:GazeingCyot@cs.com">GazeingCyot@cs.com</a>= =20 <dd>To: <a= href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</= a>=20 <dd>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:01 AM <dd>Subject: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone <dd>Hello in the camps=20 <dd>I've got a question for ya all.=20 <dd>I have read that Colter did not acutely enter Yellowstone and the only= hot spring that he found were over by Cody that is where Colter's Hell is.= But It is assumed Colter told Clark of the things he had seen in his years= of travel as a trapper, as the map that appeared in Nicholas Biddle's 1814= version of the Lewis and Clark journals reflects Colter's knowledge."= this map shows Colter's rout coming from west of the Tetons, going along= the west shore of Lake Biddle (Jackson Lake) and proceeding to the north,= to Lake Eustis (Yellowstone Lake), traversing north along the west short of= that, then heading east when he gets to the north end of the lake. =A0He= proceeds NE along the Yellowstone River, fording the river at some hot= springs. This rout would have took him right by some of the thermal= activity in Yellowstone and seem to be in well in to Yellowstone. <dd>The question is where did this notion come from that Colter did not= enter or discover Yellowstone. I have read it some where but for the life= of me I cannot remember where or the reasoning be hind it. That he only= made it to Cody and Colter's hell that is there and move south of the Lake.= Am I up in the night or is there some proof out there that proves he did= not enter Yellowstone and disproves Clarks maps? I thought someone out= there could shed some light on this for me.=20 <dd>See ya on the Trail=20 <dd>Crazy Cyot </blockquote> </dl></html> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:30:41 -0700 From: "John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2CD6E.98FB7C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dean, Thanks for posting the URL on the Clark 1810 map--I should have done = that. It is my understanding, by the way, that Yale Univ. which = currently holds the Clark 1810 map, is doing a full-size reproduction of = it for sale sometime during the L&C Bicentennial. I know that some of = the folks on the list would be interested in getting their meathooks on = this reproduction and when/if I hear more about it, I'll let you know. Your questions are perfectly logical and are the result of my failure to = be more precise. I think the river that Colter forded in the northern = part of present-day Yellowstone Park was the Lamar, not the = Yellowstone--just east of Tower Falls. North of the Lamar and upstream a = little ways there were several sizeable hot springs just southeast of = Druid Peak (presently much less active since the Madison Quake in 1959). = I think that these thermal phenomena are those Clark noted on his map. I = also think that Clark made an error in transcribing Colter's data that = was probably delivered verbally rather than in map form since there is = no evidence that Colter ever drew a map. If Colter had gone west of = Yellowstone Lake, it would have been difficult for him to miss the Heart = Lake geyser basin, the West Thumb geyser basin, the Dragon's Mouth and = Sulfur Springs near the outlet of the Yellowstone River (you can both = hear and smell those from a mile or more away), or the Yellowstone's = Grand Canyon--none of which Clark inserted on his map. The Bannock Trail = that Colter probably followed out of the Park crossed the Yellowstone = from the west near Tower Falls but above the junction of the Lamar and = Yellowstone and then crossed the Lamar near the thermal region that = Clark notes on his map. This is probably where Colter joined with the = Bannocks and traveled east with them. Of course it is possible that = Clark's map is an accurate rendering of Colter's route and Colter did, = in fact, go west of Yellowstone Lake--but I doubt it because of so much = missing data that Clark would surely have entered if Colter had seen it = and told him about it. Why show the Shoshone Canyon and Clark's Fork = Canyon on the map (as Clark did) and not the Grand Canyon of the = Yellowstone and the two huge falls which would have been pretty hard for = Colter to miss if he followed the Yellowstone downstream from the Lake? = Of course, we'll never know but that's part of the fun of attempting to = fit Clark's cartography into what makes sense as we look at modern maps. = And maybe I'll change my mind as I continue to study this. Finally, there are two important things to keep in mind. First, Billy = Clark is one of my heroes but I'd be the first to admit that his = post-expedition mapping still left a lot of unanswered questions and got = a lot of the geography that he himself hadn't seen just plain dead = wrong. Consider that in an area about 100 miles square he shows the = headwaters of the Yellowstone, Big Horn, Platte, Arkansas, Rio Grande, = and Snake! And second, we also can't forget the possibility of Colter = himself being wrong about just where he went. Imagine a guy just out of = the mountains after nearly 5 years away from what passed for = civilization in St. Louis heading first for a tavern and then to see = Cap'n Clark to report on his travels--might have been more than one or = two errors in the process data transmission! Best wishes, John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dean Rudy=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone John -=20 An interesting interpretation of Colter's route. Thanks for taking = the time to post it. For everybody's reference, Clark's manuscript map can be viewed at: http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/haines1/images/ieem1.jpg A question: On Clark's (manuscript) map, it shows Colter's route being along the = west shore of Lake Eustis (Yellowstone), then circling east around the = north end of the lake then following the large river at the outlet until = he forded the river where he noted "hot springs brimstone". Was there a = typo in your route description, or do you believe Clark got that wrong? = If Colter's route was between the Lake and the Absorokas, why would he = need to ford the Yellowstone to go up the Lamar? regards, Dean Rudy At 07:03 PM 2/5/03 -0700, you wrote:=20 Ho, the list, =20 Well, Crazy, I'm partly to blame since some of my articles and books = on early mapping and exploration of the Rockies have given a different = interpretation of Clark's map than you indicate. In fact, Clark's map = proves my thesis about Colter's route rather than the other way = around--but you have to use Clark's manuscript rather than the published = edition. =20 Let me begin by saying that I grew up in the Cody area, worked for = the Forest Service in Dubois, in the Wind River valley, and know the = area "like the back of my hand." Clark's 1810 map (the manuscript = version--not the engraved published version) shows Colter's route as = staying east of the Continental Divide. The lake that most historians = have assumed is Jackson Lake on the map (yes, there was a lake = there--the present dam has just made it bigger) is not Jackson Lake at = all but Brooks Lake just east of the Continental Divide at Togwotee = Pass. Clark's map clearly shows this lake as the source of the Wind = River/Big Horn and clearly shows the mountains dividing the Wind River = drainage from the "Lewis's River" or Snake drainage as west of the = lake--a pretty darn good rendition of the geography of the upper Wind = River. The map does not show the Tetons or any other recognizable = features west of the Continental Divide. So: Biddle Lake is not Jackson = Lake but Brooks Lake and Lake Eustis is, as you indicate Yellowstone = Lake. =20 We know for a fact that the thermal activity noted by Colter was in = the vicinity of Cody, Wyoming since a manuscript map drawn by Clark from = sketches by both Colter and George Drouillard render the geography of = the Cody area perfectly: the South Fork and North Fork of the Shoshone = coming together west of the canyon, Heart Mountain to the north of the = river, and "boiling springs" to the east of the Shoshone Canyon--right = where the Cody Stampede rodeo grounds now sit. In fact, across the = highway from the rodeo grounds is an inactive geyser cone with = travertine deposits recent enough to suggest that it was active when = Colter was there and he probably saw an eruption since he described it = to Clark. The Demaris Hot Springs are in the same area and, although = less active now, were active enough when I was a boy in the 40s and 50s = to attract tourists to "take the waters." =20 Here is my interpretation of Colter's route, based on 35 years of = study: from Lisa's fort at the mouth of the Big Horn, across the Pryor = Mountains to the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone, possibly up the = Clark's Fork into the Sunlight Basin and then back out to the area just = south of where the Clark's Fork comes out of the mountains. From there, = Colter headed south, crossed the low drainage divide to the Shoshone = with Heart Mountain on his left. He spent some time in the Cody area, = probably didn't go through the canyon but around the southern end of = Cedar Mountain to the junction of the South and North Forks of the = Shoshone. He may have tried to go up the South Fork in search of a route = to the south but was probably stymied by the terrain and the snow. = (Remember he was on foot and traveling in January-February.) The = mountains on the south side of the southern branch of the Shoshone rise = almost vertically from the valley floor--not something that any = reasonable man would have tried to scale in mid-winter. I've crossed = several of the passes between the Shoshone drainage and the Wind River = drainage in this area and on most of them, got off my horse and led her = rather than staying aboard--and I'm not afraid of heights!. So Colter = probably came back down the South Fork, around the southern end of = Carter Mountain, south across the Greybull River (just west of = Meteetsee, Wyoming, and then across a low pass in the Owl Creek = Mountains west of Thermopolis, Wyoming to the Wind River (if he'd gone = through the Wind River Canyon, he surely would have noted it when he = conveyed information to Clark). He traveled up the Wind River to its = source in Brooks Lake, then turned north along the eastern base of the = mountains (remember the steep cliffs in the movie "Mountain Man"?--those = are the mountains west of Brooks Lake) through Turpin Meadows and into = what is now Yellowstone. He probably skirted Yellowstone Lake on the = east, staying between the lake and the Absarokas, forded the river at = the traditional Shoshone crossing downstream from the Grand Canyon of = the Yellowstone (again, there is no evidence that he saw the Grand = Canyon because that feature doesn't appear on Clark's map either). In = the vicinity of the junction of the Yellowstone and Lamar, he fell in = with a group of Bannock Shoshones, heading for the buffalo hunting = grounds of the Great Plains. Traveling with the Indians, he crossed = between the Lamar River drainage and the Clark's Fork drainage over what = we now call "Colter's Pass"--near present-day Cooke City, Montana--and = down the Clark's Fork through the Sunlight Basin country, probably = crossing over Dead Indian Hill (just like the Nez Perce would do 70 = years later in their flight from the US Army), to the Shoshone River and = down the Shoshone to its junction with the Big Horn and down the Big = Horn to Lisa's fort. =20 Let me stress that this is the only route that is consistent with = the information presented on Clark's 1810 manuscript map, and the Clark = map of the Big Horn Basin drawn from information provided by Colter and = Droulliard. Unfortunately, in producing the engraving for the 1814 = published edition of Clark's map, Samuel Lewis (the engraver and no = relation to Meriwether) misread some of Clark's manuscript and showed = Colter's route crossing the Continental Divide all right and then = turning and recrossing into the Yellowstone drainage. What river was = Colter on, according to the published map, when he crossed the Divide = just west of the Wind River? Why the Rio del Norte, of course--and = that's the term used by Clark and others to describe the Rio Grande! For = sure, according to the 1814 map, Colter was not on the Snake--and he = wasn't on the Snake according to Clark's manuscript either. =20 One more comment: at the Teton N.P. headquarters at Moose, there is = a rock roughly carved into the shape of a man's head with the name "J. = Colter" inscribed on it. This rock was turned up in a farmer's field in = Idaho, west of Teton Pass and the Teton Range in the 1930s and has been = used as proof that Colter was in Jackson's Hole, crossed Teton Pass, = and--for reasons that no one has ever been able to explain--spent = precious time carving a rock into the shape of a man's head and = inscribing his name into it. There are several things wrong with this = piece of evidence: first, why in the world would Colter ever have done = such a thing?; second, Colter couldn't read or write--even his own name = (in the Lewis and Clark Expedition records, he's made a mark next to a = signature obviously written by Lewis); third, a letter from a soldier = accompanying the Hayden expedition into Yellowstone and the Tetons in = 1872 describes how this soldier "hoaxed" others by carving the names of = early explorers on rocks, trees, etc. =20 If you want a reading list, please contact me off-list as this = message is already far too long. =20 Watch the skyline. =20 John =20 Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:01 AM=20 Subject: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone Hello in the camps=20 I've got a question for ya all.=20 I have read that Colter did not acutely enter Yellowstone and = the only hot spring that he found were over by Cody that is where = Colter's Hell is. But It is assumed Colter told Clark of the things he = had seen in his years of travel as a trapper, as the map that appeared = in Nicholas Biddle's 1814 version of the Lewis and Clark journals = reflects Colter's knowledge." this map shows Colter's rout coming from = west of the Tetons, going along the west shore of Lake Biddle (Jackson = Lake) and proceeding to the north, to Lake Eustis (Yellowstone Lake), = traversing north along the west short of that, then heading east when he = gets to the north end of the lake. He proceeds NE along the Yellowstone = River, fording the river at some hot springs. This rout would have took = him right by some of the thermal activity in Yellowstone and seem to be = in well in to Yellowstone.=20 The question is where did this notion come from that Colter did = not enter or discover Yellowstone. I have read it some where but for the = life of me I cannot remember where or the reasoning be hind it. That he = only made it to Cody and Colter's hell that is there and move south of = the Lake. Am I up in the night or is there some proof out there that = proves he did not enter Yellowstone and disproves Clarks maps? I thought = someone out there could shed some light on this for me.=20 See ya on the Trail=20 Crazy Cyot=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2CD6E.98FB7C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1126" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Dean,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for posting the URL on the Clark = 1810 map--I=20 should have done that. It is my understanding, by the way, that Yale = Univ. which=20 currently holds the Clark 1810 map, is doing a full-size reproduction of = it for=20 sale sometime during the L&C Bicentennial. I know that some of the = folks on=20 the list would be interested in getting their meathooks=20 on this reproduction and when/if I hear more about it, = I'll let=20 you know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your questions are perfectly logical = and are the=20 result of my failure to be more precise. I think the river that = Colter=20 forded in the northern part of present-day Yellowstone Park was the = Lamar, not=20 the Yellowstone--just east of Tower Falls. North of the Lamar and = upstream=20 a little ways there were several sizeable hot springs just = southeast of=20 Druid Peak (presently much less active since the Madison Quake in = 1959). I=20 think that these thermal phenomena are those Clark noted on his map. I = also=20 think that Clark made an error in transcribing Colter's data that was = probably=20 delivered verbally rather than in map form since there is no evidence = that=20 Colter ever drew a map. If Colter had gone west of Yellowstone Lake, it = would=20 have been difficult for him to miss the Heart Lake geyser basin, the = West Thumb=20 geyser basin, the Dragon's Mouth and Sulfur Springs near the outlet of = the=20 Yellowstone River (you can both hear and smell those from a mile or more = away),=20 or the Yellowstone's Grand Canyon--none of which Clark inserted on his = map. The=20 Bannock Trail that Colter probably followed out of the Park crossed the=20 Yellowstone from the west near Tower Falls but above the junction = of the=20 Lamar and Yellowstone and then crossed the Lamar near the thermal region = that=20 Clark notes on his map. This is probably where Colter joined with the = Bannocks=20 and traveled east with them. Of course it is possible that Clark's = map is=20 an accurate rendering of Colter's route and Colter did, in fact, go west = of=20 Yellowstone Lake--but I doubt it because of so much missing data that = Clark=20 would surely have entered if Colter had seen it and told him about = it. Why=20 show the Shoshone Canyon and Clark's Fork Canyon on the map (as Clark = did) and=20 not the Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone and the two huge = falls which would=20 have been pretty hard for Colter to miss if he followed the Yellowstone=20 downstream from the Lake? Of course, we'll never know but that's part of = the fun=20 of attempting to fit Clark's cartography into what makes sense as we = look at=20 modern maps. And maybe I'll change my mind as I continue to study=20 this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, there are two important things = to keep in=20 mind. First, Billy Clark is one of my heroes but I'd be the first = to admit=20 that his post-expedition mapping still left a lot of unanswered = questions and=20 got a lot of the geography that he himself hadn't seen just plain dead = wrong.=20 Consider that in an area about 100 miles square he shows the headwaters = of the=20 Yellowstone, Big Horn, Platte, Arkansas, Rio Grande, and Snake! And = second,=20 we also can't forget the possibility = of Colter=20 himself being wrong about just where he went. Imagine a guy just = out of the=20 mountains after nearly 5 years away from what passed for = civilization in=20 St. Louis heading first for a tavern and then to see Cap'n Clark to = report on=20 his travels--might have been more than one or two errors in the process = data=20 transmission!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best wishes,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>John</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY = 82072-2979 Phone:=20 (307) 742-0883 e-mail: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:jlallen@wyoming.com">jlallen@wyoming.com</A> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black">From:=20 <A title=3Ddrudy@xmission.com href=3D"mailto:drudy@xmission.com">Dean = Rudy</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A = title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Wednesday, February 05, = 2003 9:47=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter = and=20 Yellowstone</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>John - An interesting interpretation = of=20 Colter's route. Thanks for taking the time to post = it. For=20 everybody's reference, Clark's manuscript map can be viewed at: <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/haines1/images/ieem1.j= pg"=20 = eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/haines1/ima= ges/ieem1.jpg</A> A=20 question: On Clark's (manuscript) map, it shows Colter's route = being along=20 the west shore of Lake Eustis (Yellowstone), then circling east around = the=20 north end of the lake then following the large river at the outlet = until he=20 forded the river where he noted "hot springs brimstone". Was = there a=20 typo in your route description, or do you believe Clark got that = wrong? =20 If Colter's route was between the Lake and the Absorokas, why would he = need to=20 ford the Yellowstone to go up the Lamar? regards, Dean=20 Rudy At 07:03 PM 2/5/03 -0700, you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">Ho, the list, <FONT=20 size=3D3> Well, Crazy, = I'm partly to=20 blame since some of my articles and books on early mapping and = exploration=20 of the Rockies have given a different interpretation of Clark's map = than you=20 indicate. In fact, Clark's map proves my thesis about Colter's route = rather=20 than the other way around--but you have to use Clark's manuscript = rather=20 than the published edition. <FONT=20 face=3Darial size=3D2>Let me begin by saying that I grew up in the = Cody area,=20 worked for the Forest Service in Dubois, in the Wind River valley, = and know=20 the area "like the back of my hand." Clark's 1810 map (the = manuscript=20 version--not the engraved published version) shows Colter's route as = staying=20 east of the Continental Divide. The lake that most = historians have=20 assumed is Jackson Lake on the map (yes, there was a lake there--the = present=20 dam has just made it bigger) is not Jackson Lake at all but Brooks = Lake just=20 east of the Continental Divide at Togwotee Pass. Clark's map clearly = shows=20 this lake as the source of the Wind River/Big Horn and clearly shows = the=20 mountains dividing the Wind River drainage from the "Lewis's River" = or Snake=20 drainage as west of the lake--a pretty darn good rendition of the = geography=20 of the upper Wind River. The map does not show the Tetons or any = other=20 recognizable features west of the Continental Divide. So: Biddle = Lake is not=20 Jackson Lake but Brooks Lake and Lake Eustis is, as you indicate = Yellowstone=20 Lake. We=20 know for a fact that the thermal activity noted by Colter was in the = vicinity of Cody, Wyoming since a manuscript map drawn by Clark from = sketches by both Colter and George Drouillard render the geography = of the=20 Cody area perfectly: the South Fork and North Fork of the Shoshone = coming=20 together west of the canyon, Heart Mountain to the north of the = river, and=20 "boiling springs" to the east of the Shoshone Canyon--right where = the Cody=20 Stampede rodeo grounds now sit. In fact, across the highway from the = rodeo=20 grounds is an inactive geyser cone with travertine deposits recent = enough to=20 suggest that it was active when Colter was there and he probably saw = an=20 eruption since he described it to Clark. The Demaris Hot = Springs are in=20 the same area and, although less active now, were active enough when = I was a=20 boy in the 40s and 50s to attract tourists to "take the=20 waters." Here is my interpretation of Colter's route, based on 35 = years of=20 study: from Lisa's fort at the mouth of the Big Horn, across the = Pryor=20 Mountains to the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone, possibly up the = Clark's=20 Fork into the Sunlight Basin and then back out to the area just = south of=20 where the Clark's Fork comes out of the mountains. From there, = Colter headed=20 south, crossed the low drainage divide to the Shoshone with Heart = Mountain=20 on his left. He spent some time in the Cody area, probably didn't go = through=20 the canyon but around the southern end of Cedar Mountain to the = junction of=20 the South and North Forks of the Shoshone. He may have tried to go = up the=20 South Fork in search of a route to the south but was probably = stymied by the=20 terrain and the snow. (Remember he was on foot and traveling in=20 January-February.) The mountains on the south side of the southern = branch of=20 the Shoshone rise almost vertically from the valley floor--not = something=20 that any reasonable man would have tried to scale in mid-winter. = I've=20 crossed several of the passes between the Shoshone drainage and the = Wind=20 River drainage in this area and on most of them, got off my horse = and led=20 her rather than staying aboard--and I'm not afraid of heights!. So = Colter=20 probably came back down the South Fork, around the southern end of = Carter=20 Mountain, south across the Greybull River (just west of Meteetsee, = Wyoming,=20 and then across a low pass in the Owl Creek Mountains west of = Thermopolis,=20 Wyoming to the Wind River (if he'd gone through the Wind River = Canyon, he=20 surely would have noted it when he conveyed information to Clark). = He=20 traveled up the Wind River to its source in Brooks Lake, then turned = north=20 along the eastern base of the mountains (remember the steep cliffs = in the=20 movie "Mountain Man"?--those are the mountains west of Brooks Lake) = through=20 Turpin Meadows and into what is now Yellowstone. He probably skirted = Yellowstone Lake on the east, staying between the lake and the = Absarokas,=20 forded the river at the traditional Shoshone crossing downstream = from the=20 Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone (again, there is no evidence that he = saw the=20 Grand Canyon because that feature doesn't appear on Clark's map = either). In=20 the vicinity of the junction of the Yellowstone and Lamar, he fell = in with a=20 group of Bannock Shoshones, heading for the buffalo hunting grounds = of the=20 Great Plains. Traveling with the Indians, he crossed between the = Lamar River=20 drainage and the Clark's Fork drainage over what we now call = "Colter's=20 Pass"--near present-day Cooke City, Montana--and down the Clark's = Fork=20 through the Sunlight Basin country, probably crossing over Dead = Indian Hill=20 (just like the Nez Perce would do 70 years later in their flight = from the US=20 Army), to the Shoshone River and down the Shoshone to its junction = with the=20 Big Horn and down the Big Horn to Lisa's fort. <FONT=20 size=3D3> Let me stress = that this is=20 the only route that is consistent with the information presented on = Clark's=20 1810 manuscript map, and the Clark map of the Big Horn Basin drawn = from=20 information provided by Colter and Droulliard. Unfortunately, in = producing=20 the engraving for the 1814 published edition of Clark's map, Samuel = Lewis=20 (the engraver and no relation to Meriwether) misread some of Clark's = manuscript and showed Colter's route crossing the Continental Divide = all=20 right and then turning and recrossing into the Yellowstone drainage. = What=20 river was Colter on, according to the published map, when he crossed = the=20 Divide just west of the Wind River? Why the Rio del Norte, of = course--and=20 that's the term used by Clark and others to describe the Rio Grande! = For=20 sure, according to the 1814 map, Colter was not on the Snake--and he = wasn't=20 on the Snake according to Clark's manuscript either. One more = comment: at the=20 Teton N.P. headquarters at Moose, there is a rock roughly carved = into the=20 shape of a man's head with the name "J. Colter" inscribed on it. = This rock=20 was turned up in a farmer's field in Idaho, west of Teton Pass and = the Teton=20 Range in the 1930s and has been used as proof that Colter was in = Jackson's=20 Hole, crossed Teton Pass, and--for reasons that no one has ever been = able to=20 explain--spent precious time carving a rock into the shape of a = man's head=20 and inscribing his name into it. There are several things wrong with = this=20 piece of evidence: first, why in the world would Colter ever have = done such=20 a thing?; second, Colter couldn't read or write--even his own name = (in the=20 Lewis and Clark Expedition records, he's made a mark next to a = signature=20 obviously written by Lewis); third, a letter from a soldier = accompanying the=20 Hayden expedition into Yellowstone and the Tetons in 1872 describes = how this=20 soldier "hoaxed" others by carving the names of early explorers on = rocks,=20 trees, etc. If you want a reading list, please contact me off-list as = this=20 message is already far too long. <FONT=20 size=3D3> Watch the=20 skyline. John Dr. John L. = Allen 2703=20 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) = 742-0883 e-mail:=20 <A = href=3D"mailto:jlallen@wyoming.com">jlallen@wyoming.com</A> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DL> <DD>----- Original Message -----=20 <DD>From: <A = href=3D"mailto:GazeingCyot@cs.com">GazeingCyot@cs.com</A>=20 <DD>To: <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <DD>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:01 AM=20 <DD>Subject: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone <DD>Hello in the camps=20 <DD>I've got a question for ya all.=20 <DD>I have read that Colter did not acutely enter Yellowstone = and the=20 only hot spring that he found were over by Cody that is where = Colter's=20 Hell is. But It is assumed Colter told Clark of the things he = had seen=20 in his years of travel as a trapper, as the map that appeared in = Nicholas Biddle's 1814 version of the Lewis and Clark journals = reflects=20 Colter's knowledge." this map shows Colter's rout coming from = west of=20 the Tetons, going along the west shore of Lake Biddle (Jackson = Lake) and=20 proceeding to the north, to Lake Eustis (Yellowstone Lake), = traversing=20 north along the west short of that, then heading east when he = gets to=20 the north end of the lake. He proceeds NE along the = Yellowstone=20 River, fording the river at some hot springs. This rout would = have took=20 him right by some of the thermal activity in Yellowstone and = seem to be=20 in well in to Yellowstone. <DD>The question is where did this notion come from that Colter = did not=20 enter or discover Yellowstone. I have read it some where but for = the=20 life of me I cannot remember where or the reasoning be hind it. = That he=20 only made it to Cody and Colter's hell that is there and move = south of=20 the Lake. Am I up in the night or is there some proof out there = that=20 proves he did not enter Yellowstone and disproves Clarks maps? I = thought=20 someone out there could shed some light on this for me.=20 <DD>See ya on the Trail=20 <DD>Crazy Cyot </DD></DL></BLOCKQUOTE> <DL></DL>---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2CD6E.98FB7C30-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1148 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.