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hist_text-digest         Friday, July 31 1998         Volume 01 : Number 115




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:25:36 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warped barrel.....oh brother

NAUGAMOK
sounds like you got a bunch of engineering background you gave out a
bunch of good info  all which seemed to be correct---got one problem with
what you said---I am  going to use the common sense approach---the salt
in the water will--yes make it hard---and brittle too--stands a good
chance in breaking his steel from being brittle after a few bangs with
the flint---"been there and done that" even after the drawing
process---with all this heating and cooling and quenching you are going
to pull most of the carbon out of the steel---and you are going to have a
fire striker steel that is either too hard or too soft---and ---AINT
NEVER GOING TO WORK RIGHT---I get many of a flintlock frizzen that people
have tried to temper or case harden and have screwed it up----too soft of
too hard and all the spark is gone----from the heating without the
forgeing all the surface carbon is burned out and what you have is a
mess---you wont know where to start to get it where you want it.

here is my best advice on the matter----iF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE THIS
BEFORE THEN TAKE THE "DARN" THING TO A BLACKSMITH AND TELL HIM ITS GONE
SOFT AND HAVE HIM FORGE AND RE -TEMPER IT BEFORE YOU MAKE A MESS OUT OF
IT---a fire steel is just like a frizzen on a rifle how do you know the
starting point so that you can get to the ending point---if you have
burned all the surface carbon out the hardening and drawing is only going
to "do nothing" except be work for you---

A MANY A BOOK HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THIS SUBJECT AND GETTING A STEEL TO THE
POINT OF BEING A GOOD SPARKER IS WHAT YOU PAY A BLACKSMITH TO DO--MOST
HAVE STUDIED AND EXPERIMENTED FOR YEARS TO GAIN THIS COMMON SENSE
KNOWLEDGE---MOST SMITHS WILL RETEMPER FOR LESS THAN $10.00---AND IT WILL
WORK OR YOU CAN SCREW WITH IT AND NEVER GET IT BACK TO WHAT YOU NEED OR
WANT----

ON THE WARPED BARREL THING---first check my last posting on the matter on
runout-- make sure that the runout is less than .010--USUALLY  a run out
of .010 is enough to be visable to the eye then to check if the barrel is
warped you can use a old gunsmith trick called the bow and string
method--

                                                 BOW AND STRING METHOD
                                  TO CHECK FOR BENT OR WARPED BARRELS

remove the breech plug of the barrel----go to your nearest hobby shop and
pick up a spool of  the thinnest steel wire you can find then go out in
the yard and find you a green straight or slightly curved limb that is
about a foot or two longer than your barrel.   cut off a length of wire
about a foor longer than the stick---attach it to one end of your
stick----feed the wire thru the barrel and out the other end---bend the
stick and attach the other end of the wire so that you now have a bow
with a steel string going thru the barrel---you should have enough
tension on the string that it will lay along the inside of the barrel
without deflecting on the ends of the barrel just from the weight of the
bow and string----

now look down the barrel and if it is warped a few thousands you can see
with the eye ---rotate the barrel and check all around the barrel in at
least 5 or 6 places---if the barrel is bent--has bulges or is deformed in
any way you can see it along the wire--- I can expand further to tell you
what you are looking fore if you need more help---

THIIS IS A GOOD VISUAL GAGE TO TELL IF IT IS BENT, WARPED OR HAS DING OR
SWELLS IN THE BARREL-- MAKE SURE THE WIRE IS GOOD AND TIGHT---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 04:52:16 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>In a message dated 98-07-30 17:24:57 EDT, you write:
>
><< I hope the barrel is not warped.  Is there any way I can tell?
>
>"Eyeball" the corners of all the flats -- by this I mean hold the
>barrel up
>about level & "sight" along each corner of the flat sides of the
>barrel --
>assuming it's the normal octagonal outside shape.  Each corner should
>be a
>straight line.  If it's warped, there'll be a slight bow to at least 4
>of
>these 8 lines -- usualy oposite each other.  IF you have access to
>precision
>measuring devices like dial indicators, precision straight edges &
>such, then
>it's a simple mater to measure exactly how much it's warped, but these
>precision "toys" aren't cheap, nor does the normal home worhshop have
>access
>to them.  If there's a machine shop in your area, they can tell you
>how much
>warpage or "run out" is in the barrel.  You didn't say if you rotated
>the
>barrel while you were heating it.  IF you were careful in trying to
>keep the
>heat even over the entire barrel, then warpage should be minimal, BUT
>if you
>heated one part to the color then turned, there is a good chance there
>is some
>warpage.
>
> < I did quench it in water that first time.  It is not
>brittle...seems
> soft.
>
>Was it still "glowing" when you quinched it?  If you let it cool until
>it
>looked black, then you only cooled it.  For a hardning quinch, it must
>be
>glowing -- preferably "dull" to "cherry" red when it enters the
>quinching
>medium.  It'll also help to warm the water & disolve as much salt in
>it as
>possible.  The salt will raise the boiling point of the water &
>warming it
>will minimumize the thermal shock to the steel which will minimumize
>cracking
>& warpage -- usualy warpage in a fire steel isn't a real concern, but
>for
>knives it IS.  It's been suggested you use a light oil instead of
>water --
>excelent advice!  There are numerous aloys or different mixtures in
>today's
>steels & unless you know exactly which one you're dealing with, using
>oil for
>the quinching medium is best.  IF you're absolutely sure you're
>dealing with
>1095 or W-1 steel, then a water quinch is ok, but even with these
>steels, oil
>works best.  At this stage your fire steel should be at it's full
>hardness.
>Keep in mind when quinching in oil, it's normal to get some flame on
>the
>surface of the oil as the red hot steel makes contact -- of course,
>you'll be
>using pliers or tongs or visegrips to hold the hot steel -- fingers
>just don't
>like steel at this temp.  About any combustable red hot steel comes in
>contact
>with will smoke or flame, so be careful!!!
>
>< What does it mean to "draw" it?
>
>To "draw" a temper means remove or "pull out" some of the hardness
>imparted to
>the steel by the quick cooling from a glowing red heat (about 1500
>degrees) to
>what ever temp your quinch medium is.  This rapid cooling "slams" the
>molecules of the steel together into their most compact form.  Just
>how
>"compact" depends on several things -- alloying elements & carbon
>content are
>most influential.  It also creates all kinds of stresses inside the
>steel.  By
>"drawing" a temper, you remove some of the stress & allow the
>molecules to
>move a bit farther away from each other.  You've read about the
>different
>"colors" in the various posts -- yellow, straw, blue, brown, & etc.
>These
>colors are caused by heat oxidation on the surface of cleanly sanded
>or
>"bright" or "white" steel.  The darker the color, the softer, more
>flexable
>the steel will become.  A bright blue is what you're looking for if
>you want
>spring steel (along with the proper alloy &/or carbon content like
>5160 or
>1095), but for a fire steel, this is too soft to spark reliably.  For
>a fire
>steel, you're looking for yellow to straw color -- in terms of degrees
>Farenheit, that's about 350  for "yellow", & 400 for "straw" -- it'll
>vary a
>bit with different alloys.  The brown you pulled the barrel to comes
>in at
>about 450, & the bright blue I mentioned is about 550.  "Drawing" to a
>color
>isn't easy the first time if you're doing it with flame -- it's realy
>easy to
>go too far & wind up too soft again.  Something you might try (if your
>wife
>doesn't mind) is putting it in the oven & "baking" it.  Set the oven
>at 300 &
>bake about 1 hr -- you can then either alow to air cool or cool in
>water or
>oil.  Try it -- if it sparks good, leave it right there -- if not,
>turn the
>oven up to 350 & bake again & try it after it cools.  If you still
>don't like
>the results, bake it again at 400 -- remember, you can always reheat
>it to the
>glowing red, quinch & start over but it'd be best of you took it up to
>a red
>heat & burry it in a pile of ashes or lime and let it slow cool
>overnight
>before trying another hardning & tempering cycle -- this is called
>"anealing"
>& it releaves all the stresses & allows the steel to "relax" -- it'll
>be at
>it's softest configuration in this state.  As someone stated --
>hardning &
>tempering is an exact science today.  Commercialy, it's done in ovens
>or with
>magnetic fields (induction hardning) & depending on the desired
>hardness /
>toughness combination, manufacturers know exactly what aloy to use,
>how hot to
>heat, how long to hold at that heat & whether or not to super cool in
>liquid
>nitrogen (used in quinching stainless steels like 440C for optimum
>hardness).
>I realize some of the alloy numbers I've used in this explination may
>not mean
>much to everyone, but to some they will.  Basicaly, the most popular
>steel for
>our time frame is the 1095 steel which is refined iron & carbon only
>-- carbon
>content .95%.  1000 series steels designate the carbon content in the
>last 2
>digits, so 1050 would have .50% -- under .40% carbon will not harden
>enough to
>be of any advantage other than added toughness & better wear or
>abrasion
>resistance over, say, 1010.  When "recycling" scrap steels, we
>sometimes run
>into some of the alloys.  For example files are usualy W-2, saw blades
>are
>L-6, leaf springs are 5160, Jackhammer bits are S-5, clock springs are
>1095.
>All of these steels will work for a fire steel if you want to start
>from
>scratch, but from my experience, 5160 only needs to be hardened -- any
>tempering or drawing back seems to soften it too much to spark
>reliably.  Even
>at full hard, 5160 alloying properties impart such a toughness to it,
>breakage
>is unlikely when used as a firesteel, but then too, it's not one of
>the best
>sparking fire steels either.  Though I haven't tried S-5, I would
>expect it to
>behave simularly to 5160 when used for a fire steel.
>
> Someone also mentioned getting a book called "The Complete
>Bladesmith" ---
>excelent book.  That same author also has another book called "The
>Advanced
>Blanesmith" -- also excelent.  If you're intrested in "pattern welded"
>or
>Damascus" blades,  author Jim Hrisoulas is one of the best in this
>field.  The
>Astragal Press has recently reprinted M.T. Ritchardson's classic
>"blacksmith's
>bible" called "Practical Blacksmithing" origionaly published in 1897 -
>98.
>Origionaly it was published in 4 volumes, but this printing has it
>combined in
>2 paper back volumes @ $24.95 each -- an earlier printing had it in 1
>hard
>bound volume, but that publishing date was in the mid 1960's if memory
>serves
>& is hard to find now. The Astragal Press has a lot of books dealing
>with
>period tools & methods of construction used in the 1700' s & 1800's --
>unfortunately they don't have a web site, but "snail" address is:
>
>The Astragal Press
>5 Cold hill Road, Suit 12
>P.O. Box 239
>Mendham, NJ 07945-0239
>
>< I look forward to hearing from Iron Tongue and any others.
>  >>
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:25:05 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

>In a message dated 98-07-30 13:00:35 EDT, Hawk wrote:
>
><< you will have to draw it so it wont
> break like glass------- >>
>
>DRAW?  I'm really not a smith so if you don't explain I will get out my pencil
>and pad which I know can not be correct.
>
>Your humble servant
>
>C.T. Oakes


Book of Bookskinning, vol. IV (the red one) has an excellent chapter on
traditional blacksmithing.  All terms and techniques are explained.  Enjoy.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:28:49 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants

>You might also consider a pair of knee breeches and just using the leggin's
>along with them.

That could be good, but knee britches fit none of the periods I do, so I
can't justify the cost.  Although some diehards were wearing them as late
as 1830, by then pants were, by and large, the rule.  I plan to widen them
a bit to make them more roomy.  There is enough skin on both of them to do
that.  I was thinking more along the lines of period drawers for
lightweight wear underneath.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:30:22 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man: Introduction and request for help

John:

I agree, 'voo camps are among the few places that a woman is safe alone.  I
attended camps for nearly 5 years before I met my fiancee (at the national
shoot of the NMLRA).  I did have problems on a few occassions by personna who
didn't understand "get lost" but the dog soldiers took care of it quite
readily when I could not.

Red Hawk
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:45:30 +0000
From: "Tommy Edge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

> Date:          Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:25:05 -0600 (CST)
> From:          [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
> Subject:       Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft
> To:            [e-mail]
> Reply-to:      [e-mail]

> >DRAW?  I'm really not a smith so if you don't explain I will
> >get out my pencil and pad which I know can not be correct.
>

HARDENING SIMPLE STEELS
All of the really low alloy steels have one feature which make
them virtually foolproof when it comes to cooking them for
hardening. When one of the low alloy steels reaches the critical
temperature where it can be hardened by quenching, it turns non -
magnetic. As the steel heats, check it with a magnet. At a certain
point, the magnet won't stick. That's usually at a temperature (color)
far lower than you would think. Once the magnet won't stick to the
blade, give it a moment more in the fire and then into the quench it
goes. (An extra 50 degrees over the critical temperature insures
better hardening and won't hurt the steel.)

The simple aloys can also be selectively hardened, not with a
fancy temper line, but with a softer back that will make the spine and
tang less susceptible to breakage. All you have to do is take the
blade up to heat very quickly, getting the thin parts along the edge
hot before the thicker spine. You could also just dip the cutting edge
into the oil, allowing the spine to cool more slowly, not hardening
it.

Should you err and get the spine too hot and inadvertently harden it,
you can use a torch to partially anneal the critical areas. I
recommend that all stick tang blades have a softer section where the
tang joins the blade.

When the hot blade hits the oil, you will almost always get some
fire. Don't leave the tang half out of the oil. It is near red hot,
sticking out of the oil and acting like the wick of a candle to start
a fire in the tank. NEVER use a small tank of oil to quench a lot of
blades. Sooner or later, you'll find the flash point of the oil.
That's where it starts burning all by itself, and you won't like that
one little bit.

Forged blades will always have stress than needs to be worked out
before hardening. They should be annealed, preferably several times
before hardening. Some knife makers have had wonderful results by
annealing their blade steel three times before hardening. It reduces
grain size significantly, making a much tougher blade.

Thank You   Tommy Edge

   I make Knives.
http://www.nex.net/tedge/

A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:34:51 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft (tempering)

TOMMY:

CONGRATULATIONS--YOU SHOULD PUBLISH YOUR CIFER---IT'S SIMPLE STUPID THAT
EVEN DUMB OLD ME UNDERSTANDS---I EVEN LEARNED A BIT ABOUT THE
MAGNET---have always had a problem with tempering and not knowing when i
got to the critical point---  i have an old bar magnet that i can
use---YOU KNIFE MAKERS ARE TOO SMART FOR THIS OLD GUNSMITH---IF I DIDNT
HAVE A HEAT TREAT FURNICE  I WOULD BE IN TROUBLE FOR KNOWING EXACT
TEMPERATURES AND UNTIL I GOT THAT FURNICE---IT WAS GUESS AND A LOT OF BY
GOD.  i ALWAYS HAD PROBLEMS REMEMBERING THE COLORS OF THE METAL.   So i
would have to play a lot when i made main springs---i usually cut the
spring out shape it and polish it good and before i got the furnice took
them or shipped them  to Vernon"Hacker" smith to temper and to draw
properly--every time i did it i had a tendency to get them too hard and
not draw them enough and have them shatter after a few times using---I
have always been lucky that I have several friends that are blacksmiths
that do my tempering other than case hardening and i learned that from
vernon---still its a learned thing that takes time and experience---Its
like color caseing a lock plate---some can do it and some cannot---it
took me  a lot of practice and playing to get it right and look good--
what i have found that is critical is the finish on the metal before i
start the coloring---As you well know you can screw up the temper of
metal if the color caseing is not done right----and the metal has temper
in it---

again a very good posting on tempering---You might explain about burning
the carbon out of the surface if you heat it too much or too hot and how
to bring the carbon to the surface so that it will take a good temper---I
know a good Polish helps prior to heat treating--------THANKS:::

  YMHOSANT

         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:45:30 +0000 "Tommy Edge" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>> Date:          Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:25:05 -0600 (CST)
>> From:          [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
>> Subject:       Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft
>> To:            [e-mail]
>> Reply-to:      [e-mail]
>
>> >DRAW?  I'm really not a smith so if you don't explain I will
>> >get out my pencil and pad which I know can not be correct.
>>
>
>HARDENING SIMPLE STEELS
>All of the really low alloy steels have one feature which make
>them virtually foolproof when it comes to cooking them for
>hardening. When one of the low alloy steels reaches the critical
>temperature where it can be hardened by quenching, it turns non -
>magnetic. As the steel heats, check it with a magnet. At a certain
>point, the magnet won't stick. That's usually at a temperature (color)
>far lower than you would think. Once the magnet won't stick to the
>blade, give it a moment more in the fire and then into the quench it
>goes. (An extra 50 degrees over the critical temperature insures
>better hardening and won't hurt the steel.)
>
>The simple aloys can also be selectively hardened, not with a
>fancy temper line, but with a softer back that will make the spine and
>tang less susceptible to breakage. All you have to do is take the
>blade up to heat very quickly, getting the thin parts along the edge
>hot before the thicker spine. You could also just dip the cutting edge
>into the oil, allowing the spine to cool more slowly, not hardening
>it.
>
>Should you err and get the spine too hot and inadvertently harden it,
>you can use a torch to partially anneal the critical areas. I
>recommend that all stick tang blades have a softer section where the
>tang joins the blade.
>
>When the hot blade hits the oil, you will almost always get some
>fire. Don't leave the tang half out of the oil. It is near red hot,
>sticking out of the oil and acting like the wick of a candle to start
>a fire in the tank. NEVER use a small tank of oil to quench a lot of
>blades. Sooner or later, you'll find the flash point of the oil.
>That's where it starts burning all by itself, and you won't like that
>one little bit.
>
>Forged blades will always have stress than needs to be worked out
>before hardening. They should be annealed, preferably several times
>before hardening. Some knife makers have had wonderful results by
>annealing their blade steel three times before hardening. It reduces
>grain size significantly, making a much tougher blade.
>
>Thank You   Tommy Edge
>
>   I make Knives.
>http://www.nex.net/tedge/
>
>A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 10:56:40 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

     unsubscribe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft
Author:  <[e-mail]> at MEMCPSMTP
Date:    7/31/98 10:45 AM


> Date:          Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:25:05 -0600 (CST)
> From:          [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
> Subject:       Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft
> To:            [e-mail]
> Reply-to:      [e-mail]

> >DRAW?  I'm really not a smith so if you don't explain I will
> >get out my pencil and pad which I know can not be correct.
>

HARDENING SIMPLE STEELS
All of the really low alloy steels have one feature which make
them virtually foolproof when it comes to cooking them for
hardening. When one of the low alloy steels reaches the critical
temperature where it can be hardened by quenching, it turns non -
magnetic. As the steel heats, check it with a magnet. At a certain
point, the magnet won't stick. That's usually at a temperature (color)
far lower than you would think. Once the magnet won't stick to the
blade, give it a moment more in the fire and then into the quench it
goes. (An extra 50 degrees over the critical temperature insures
better hardening and won't hurt the steel.)

The simple aloys can also be selectively hardened, not with a
fancy temper line, but with a softer back that will make the spine and
tang less susceptible to breakage. All you have to do is take the
blade up to heat very quickly, getting the thin parts along the edge
hot before the thicker spine. You could also just dip the cutting edge
into the oil, allowing the spine to cool more slowly, not hardening
it.

Should you err and get the spine too hot and inadvertently harden it,
you can use a torch to partially anneal the critical areas. I
recommend that all stick tang blades have a softer section where the
tang joins the blade.

When the hot blade hits the oil, you will almost always get some
fire. Don't leave the tang half out of the oil. It is near red hot,
sticking out of the oil and acting like the wick of a candle to start
a fire in the tank. NEVER use a small tank of oil to quench a lot of
blades. Sooner or later, you'll find the flash point of the oil.
That's where it starts burning all by itself, and you won't like that
one little bit.

Forged blades will always have stress than needs to be worked out
before hardening. They should be annealed, preferably several times
before hardening. Some knife makers have had wonderful results by
annealing their blade steel three times before hardening. It reduces
grain size significantly, making a much tougher blade.

Thank You   Tommy Edge

   I make Knives.
http://www.nex.net/tedge/

A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:49:25 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants

In a message dated 98-07-31 10:30:14 EDT, you write:

<< -----(stuff deleted)------but knee britches fit none of the periods I do,
so I
 can't justify the cost.  Although some diehards were wearing them as late
 as 1830, by then pants were, by and large, the rule. -----(stuff
deleted)------ >>

   Well Henry, I am not about to get into thread of difference of opinion with
somebody who is in your position on this, however I will relate some
interesting reading I have done, and no darn-it I cannot point you towaed any
of it as all the copies of it I had were once lost in a hard drive crash and
the backup disks didn't work either.
   One of the more interesting pieces dealt specifically with this subject.
The writer had done research into the art of Bodmer.  In many of his paintings
done some years after he had visited the American west he showed specific
Mountainmen doned in "Buckskin Pants" but when examining his sketches, done at
the time he was there, he found that what was more than apparantly the same
Mountainmen standing in streams in "Knee Breeches".  The writer asked what
conclusion do we draw from this? Consider these points: The paintings were
some of them done 15 and 20 years later, but the sketches done on the scene.
Would these men have changed attire to wade the streams? Possible that his
sketches just didn't show that the pants were rolled up? Or could it be that
these men wore Knee Breeches and Leggin's?  Consider the practcality of the
Knee Breeches and Leggin's.
   He made a much better and broader argument than I can recall here, with a
lot more facts than i can recall as well.  However, i think this is well worth
considering if not going all out into researching the point.  At any rate I do
notfeel that the Knee Breeches and Leggin's are WRONG for the period you
describe.  As a matter of fact I have just about all but decided to go this
route with my next set of clothing.  I just think you may give consideration
to the idea.  I would love for someone to prove or disprove this train of
thought at some time if possible.

                                           Longshot

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:44:04 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: shooting pouches, breeches

Here are some breif an probably unnecessary
comments on recent discussions.
1.  I would really be great if someone could find
a supportable pouch that
was actually used in the west before 1840.  They
almost certainly exist, the problem
is proving that a particular piece went to the
mountains.  Hope somebody does.
Don't discount pouches that looked professionally
made.
Professionally made shooting bags were quite
common in the 1820-40
west.  The American Fur Company posts regularly
had them in inventory,
and occasionally bought them from the famous
saddle maker Thorton Grimsley.
Anything made by Grimsley would have been sturdy,
well made and would have had a
professional saddler's look to it.  And, they were
 used in the west.
2.  Folks have been talking about knee breeches in
the West.  One writer recalled
reading about sketches by Bodmer that showed
trappers in knee breeches.  The writer
probably was remembering A J Miller, because
Bodmer painted almost no non-Indians.
Miller, on the other hand, did a lot of field
sketches in the west and continued doing
paintings based on them for another 20 plus years.
 There is a Miller called "Picketing Horses
at Evening" which certainly seems to show a
trapper in knee breeches.  Later paintings
of the scene changed them to fringed pantaloons.
While breeches were still around in the early 19th
century, by the 1830s they were very
much out of style and therefore probably somewhat
uncommon.
More discussion of this same topic, including the
Miller paintings is in the piece that
Clay Landry and I did in Book of Buckskinning VII
on traper clothing.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:44:13 -0700
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: case hardning  of mild steel

5 gallon bucket  10 pounds of salt 32 oz of dawn saop no other 32oz of shackley
basic I no other  mix in water tell  bucket is full . mild steel only- mild steel
only it will ruin a high carbon steel frizen in a second.  bring steel to a wet
red and quench tel cool varing degrees of time on the quench will result in
deepness in hard . i would no use it on a pistol frame . i canot stress it enough
mild steel only . you may experiment if you must butt at your own risk.   the
worst form of aberance is knoladge witheld.    iron tongue
Jerry H. Wheeler wrote:

> amen to that   H.B.
>
> Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
> > >Kirk,
> > > The best advice I can offer. Do it right the first time..Stay away from
> > >chrome tan and "shiney " ronnyvoo stuff. It will be a helluva alot cheaper
> > >in the long run.
> > >  I carry a blanket, French haversack, a small kettle, my knife & gun
> > >equipment. My fusil. Oh yeah!, my spoon! And some asst. of stuff in the
> > >pockets of me wekit.  You may want a trail tarp for a leanto, if you are so
> > >inclined..But you don't need much else.
> > >>
> > >Dennis Miles
> > >AMM#1622
> >
> > Unless you expect everyone else to feed you at a rondy, you'd better bring
> > some food along, too.  Many times a few people will form a mess and cook
> > and eat together.  Bring something to add to the group's culinary effort.
> > There's nothing so unwelcome at a rondy as a freeloader.  Bring a share of
> > victuals and you'll be welcome in anyone's camp (theoretically).
> >
> > HBC
> >
> > *****************************************
> > Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> > [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> > 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> > FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> >                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> > ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:32:49 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man: Thank you and question

Susan (and interested others), There are a couple of great newpapers published
that listing events:

Smoke & Fire News (monthly) PO 166 Grand Rapids, OH 43522  [phone]
$18/yr or $34/2yrs;  (this covers many areas of reenacting interests)

Territorial Dispatch (quarterly)  published by the NAB (National Association
of Buckskinners, out of Denver, CO. Sorry I don't have the address or phone
info.             Hope this helps.  PJ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:39:16 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warped barrel.....oh brother

In a message dated 98-07-31 10:23:01 EDT, you write:

<< sounds like you got a bunch of engineering background you gave out a
 bunch of good info  all which seemed to be correct-

Thanks, but it's years of heating & hammering iron as a paying hobby and
working as a heavy equipment mechanic / welder / machinist to support my black
powder habits --- and, of course, a lot of research related to both hobby &
job.  The study of metalurgy, to me, is facinating!  Like -- what happens if
you add .15% to .3% lead by volume to 4140 chrome moly steel???  It makes it
machine better -- AND, even though lead isn't supposed to effect hardning, it
WILL improve the hardning of this particular alloy.  Now comes the fun part --
WHY????  Danged if I know, but it does!  This particular quirk defies all the
rules.  Just a bit of trivia that's not realy related to our prefered time
frame, but intresting any way -- and it also illustrates that we don't always
get what we expect.

< --got one problem with what you said---I am  going to use the common sense
approach---the salt in the water will--yes make it hard---and brittle
too--stands a good
 chance in breaking his steel from being brittle after a few bangs with
 the flint

That was a recomendation by Jim Hrisoulas who's heated & hammered much more
iron than I have.  It's also mentioned in M.T. Richardson's books.  The brine
solution should only be used for water hardning steels such as the 1000 series
& "W" series steels.  If you try it with, say "O-1", which is an oil hardning
steel, your comments are entirely correct -- brine WILL give you SERIOUS
problems!

< with all this heating and cooling and quenching you are going
 to pull most of the carbon out of the steel

This can be minimumized by using the neutral or carburizing area of the flame
/ fire.  In the forge, the neutral area is in the middle of the fire &
carburizing area is the upper portion of the fire.  Down at the bottom of the
fire close to the tuyere where the air blast enters the fire is an ozidixing
area of the fire & WILL DEFINITELY decarbonize the steel.  I've had some luck
ADDING carbon back into steel by heating in the carburizing portion of the
flame, but it's a tricky process of maintaining just the right heat over an
extended period of time to allow absorbtion of carbon by the steel.  Basicaly,
the same theory applies to crucible steel, but there you have an abundance of
carbon from the charred bone & leather used inside the crucible with the steel
coupled with the absence of oxygen.  If I'm using a oxyaccetelyne torch to
heat with, I leave a bit of a white feather on the tip of the central light
blue cone of the flame to create a carburizing flame.  Modern auto body sheet
metal torch welds best with this type flame because of it's high carbon
content.

< I get many of a flintlock frizzen that people
 have tried to temper or case harden and have screwed it up----too soft of
 too hard and all the spark is gone----from the heating without the
 forgeing all the surface carbon is burned out and what you have is a
 mess---you wont know where to start to get it where you want it.

Correcting someone elses screw-up is always guess work -- AT BEST!  Several
times, I've had to "half sole" a frizen with a piece of file to get it to work
right.

< here is my best advice on the matter----iF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE THIS
 BEFORE THEN TAKE THE "DARN" THING TO A BLACKSMITH AND TELL HIM ITS GONE SOFT
AND HAVE HIM FORGE AND RE -TEMPER IT BEFORE YOU MAKE A MESS OUT OF IT

This is realy the best policy!  Most of us who do this type work have, as
you've said, already made enough mistakes to know what works & what doesn't.

< A MANY A BOOK HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THIS SUBJECT AND GETTING A STEEL TO THE
POINT OF BEING A GOOD SPARKER

I've discovered not all the books know what they're talking about either --
that or they're so vague in their instructions it's still a lot of guess work.
That's why I keep refering to M.T. Richardson & Jim Hrisoulas -- I've tried
their suggestions, & they WORK!

< ON THE WARPED BARREL THING---first check my last posting on the matter on
 runout-- make sure that the runout is less than .010--USUALLY  a run out
 of .010 is enough to be visable to the eye then to check if the barrel is
 warped you can use a old gunsmith trick called the bow and string
 method--

I was going to say not to worry about anything under .003" since that's usual
machinist tolerances -- + or - .0015.  I can see .003, but then too, I've had
lots of practice.  My suggestions were based on the theorum that if the
outside of the barrel is warped, the inside is too, & in most cases the
outside is much easier to "eyeball".  A lot of people don't have the means or
skill to pull a breech plug without serious damage to the barrel, so I hate to
suggest it even though it IS the best way
.
<                      BOW AND STRING METHOD
<                 TO CHECK FOR BENT OR WARPED BARRELS

Now -- I learned somethin'!  8)  Thanks!  That's what this fourm is all about
isn't it?  Exchanging knowledge & ideas so we can learn better ways to
accomplish our goal of a proper portrayal of a specific part of history.

NM


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:27:02 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

In a message dated 98-07-31 09:23:13 EDT, you write:

<< << you will have to draw it so it wont
  break like glass------- >>

< DRAW?  I'm really not a smith so if you don't explain I will get out my
pencil
 and pad which I know can not be correct.
  >>

No, C.T. you're right, were not after a picture -- different sense of the word
- -- "draw" as in "pull" or "remove" -- like "draw a bucked to water from the
well".  When we say "drawing a tmper" it's a process where we "remove" some of
the hearness to make an item more serviceable or make it do what we want it to
do.  We do this by heating the piece again after it's hardened -- but only a
little bit!  This is one of the most critical processes in blacksmithing.  Too
much heat, & it's too soft, not enough & it's still too hard.  Like any trade
or job, blacksmithing has it's own vocabulary & terminology that's sometimes
confusing.  Like "fuller" -- ain't got nothin' to do with the bursh man!  It's
a tool & it's usage that creates a groove in a piece of steel.  You've seen
the results of it's usage in knife making -- most people call it a "blood
groove" -- that isn't what it's for -- it's to lighten & strengthen the blade.
Sometimes  the fuller or "blood groove" is strictly ornamental, but it it's a
period piece, you can bet it's there for a reason -- like to make the blade
wider without adding weight & to strengthen the spine.  If you look at a cross
section of a fullered piece, you'll notice a striking resemblance to a type of
structural steel called "I beam".  "Hardie" doesn't mean "tough", "disease
resistant", or "healthy" -- it's the square hole in an anvil face & some times
the tools & attachments that go in this hole are refered to as "hardies"
though incorrectly so.  "Jumping" has nothing to do with getting airborne
either -- it's a method of swelling or thickening a piece of steel where you
need more material -- like when making the bowl of a spoon.  Think HBC refered
to the Buckskinning IV book as a translational guide -- good reference.

NM

------------------------------

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