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hist_text-digest     Wednesday, February 5 2003     Volume 01 : Number 1147



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Ben's book
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fiction
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Ben's book
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man book
-áááááá MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone
-áááááá MtMan-List: off topic
-áááááá MtMan-List: Ben's book
-áááááá MtMan-List: AMM-List: Texas Town Names...OFF TOPIC
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Ben's book
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: off topic
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: twists
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fort Union Headliner
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 22:50:15 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ben's book

Aye... that she was. I never met her in person... my great loss... but
she went out of her way to autograph a copy of the book and get it to
me 2 years ago.  I think she was indeed a wonderful woman... Lanney,
you were a very lucky man to have known her.

Regards,

Ad Miller


Thanks for the link Lanney.  I'm afraid I'm going to have to purchase
that book.  Afraid cause my wife's going to kill me :-)
She was a beautiful woman . . . and probably as nice as she is pretty.
Ben





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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:21:48 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fiction

In a message dated 2/4/03 10:53:56 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< IMHO, a family homesteading a valley on the north slope of the
Uintas, in 1828 - 1832 >>

I once met and visited with about everyone of any "old-timey" significance
who were at the time living there and with recall of any early habitation.
This was for research in locating the original rendezvous site (1825) and
plan for the first AMM rendezvous there.  They pointed out there was no
habitation there at that time and for some time to follow.  The closest thing
to that was on the property of  Orson Behunin close to spot where Burnt Fork
runs down to merge with Henry's Fork.  Orson showed me and Billy Keith (Yaro
- - to those who didn't know he had a "town" name) what was obviously the
remains of a cabin foundation and the stone chimney on the east side.
According to Orson some of the trappers who were at that 1825 rendezvous
liked the area and returned to build a cabin for themselves there.

Later, in 1868, the federal representatives met in treaty with the Shoshone
band under Washakee - same year the Lakota and Cheyenne met at Fort Laramie
for their disasterous treaty agreement.  Washakee wanted for their
reservation all that north slope land from Fort Bridger to the Green River.
He didn't get it as was put on the Wind River (now) reservation and later
told to share it with the Arapaho.  The probability of habitation at that
late date and location was still pretty slim.  The exception was the farming
that was done at the Mormon fort (Fort Supply)south of  Fort Bridger.  That
was all burned out when (just before) Johnson's army came through.  Judge
Carter, the suttler for Fort Bridger contracted to supply hay for the army
from the lands surrounding the fort and after it had become an estabished
military post.  By then we are talking late 1850s - early 1860.  Besides -
that land is all near 7,000' elevation.  At that time there were lots of
better places to build a cabin for a family.

Most sincerely
Richard James

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 22:40:10 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ben's book

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Ben
Please contact me off list.
thanx
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Ben=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:16 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ben's book


  Thanks for the link Lanney.  I'm afraid I'm going to have to purchase =
that book.  Afraid cause my wife's going to kill me :-)
  She was a beautiful woman . . . and probably as nice as she is pretty.
  Ben
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
    To: [e-mail]=20
    Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:53 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ben's book


     Ben wrote: I wish I could have met Laura Jean.=20

    Ben,
    Click here for a thumbnail sketch of Laura Jeana and her book..
    Lanney

    =
http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-item?item=3D732&161221004-31774aaa


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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1126" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Ben</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Please contact me off=20
list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>thanx</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney =
Ratcliff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
=20
</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Ben</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 04, =
2003 9:16=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Ben's =
book</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the link Lanney.  I'm =
afraid I'm=20
  going to have to purchase that book.  Afraid cause my wife's =
going to=20
  kill me :-)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>She was a beautiful woman . . . and =
probably as=20
  nice as she is pretty.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ben</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=[e-mail]=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Lanney Ratcliff</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    title=[e-mail]=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 04, =
2003 5:53=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Ben's=20
    book</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2> </FONT>Ben wrote: <FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I wish =
I could have=20
    met Laura Jean. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ben,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Click here for a thumbnail sketch of Laura Jeana =
and her=20
    book..</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lanney</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-item?item=3D732&161221004-=
31774aaa">http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-item?item=3D732&16122100=
4-31774aaa</A></FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
      =
size=3D4><BR></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 22:50:33 -0700 (MST)
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man book

Frank said,
>    We have been needing a real writer on this list. <G>
> Frank G. Fusco
> Mountain Home, AR
>

     Romantics. Thats what you novel readers are, romantics. Give me a
good true journal anyday.
     This is just my opinion but personally I don't consider novels worth
reading as its all made up and I don't care how historically correct it
is.  Never read one, never will. Oh, and you got to love that cover
artwork were all the guys look like Fabio and the women look like models.
Yeah, but they might have looked like that?à
     Why is it all these novel writers have to ask the list for simple
things like "how was this done?" or "what is it like by this place?"
A "real" writer like you say Frank, would research it, go out and do it
and travel to these spots to form their own opinions.  Please, nothing
personal all you fiction writers. Editors are much more critical than me,
you know that.
     Any husband or father who would take his family further west then St.
Charles Mo in the 1830's should have been arrested for negligence. It was
tantamount to giving them a death sentence. If they moved even several
miles away from a settlement including in the east and all there children
were murdered or tortured to death by the savages before their eyes they
had only themselves to blame. Perhaps this is why in the real world no
white families where that far west in the 1830Æs. But it could have
happened, right?à
          ThatÆs just my opinion too, so please donÆt get all bent out of
shape everyone, I donÆt mean to sound mean. Just imagine a nice debate
around a campfire and beaverboy giving his humble opinion. You know what
they say about opinions.
                    beaverboy




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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 03:01:50 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone

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Hello in the camps
I've got a question for ya all.
I have read that Colter did not acutely enter Yellowstone and the only hot
spring that he found were over by Cody that is where Colter's Hell is. But It
is assumed Colter told Clark of the things he had seen in his years of travel
as a trapper, as the map that appeared in Nicholas Biddle's 1814 version of
the Lewis and Clark journals reflects Colter's knowledge." this map shows
Colter's rout coming from west of the Tetons, going along the west shore of
Lake Biddle (Jackson Lake) and proceeding to the north, to Lake Eustis
(Yellowstone Lake), traversing north along the west short of that, then
heading east when he gets to the north end of the lake.  He proceeds NE along
the Yellowstone River, fording the river at some hot springs. This rout would
have took him right by some of the thermal activity in Yellowstone and seem
to be in well in to Yellowstone.

The question is where did this notion come from that Colter did not enter or
discover Yellowstone. I have read it some where but for the life of me I
cannot remember where or the reasoning be hind it. That he only made it to
Cody and Colter's hell that is there and move south of the Lake. Am I up in
the night or is there some proof out there that proves he did not enter
Yellowstone and disproves Clarks maps? I thought someone out there could shed
some light on this for me.
See ya on the Trail
Crazy Cyot





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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Hello in the camps
<BR>I've got a question for ya all.
<BR>I have read that Colter did not acutely enter Yellowstone and the only h=
ot spring that he found were over by Cody that is where Colter's Hell is. Bu=
t It is assumed Colter told Clark of the things he had seen in his years of=20=
travel as a trapper, as the map that appeared in Nicholas Biddle's 1814 vers=
ion of the Lewis and Clark journals reflects Colter's knowledge." this map s=
hows Colter's rout coming from west of the Tetons, going along the west shor=
e of Lake Biddle (Jackson Lake) and proceeding to the north, to Lake Eustis=20=
(Yellowstone Lake), traversing north along the west short of that, then head=
ing east when he gets to the north end of the lake.  He proceeds NE alo=
ng the Yellowstone River, fording the river at some hot springs. This rout w=
ould have took him right by some of the thermal activity in Yellowstone and=20=
seem to be in well in to Yellowstone.
<BR>
<BR>The question is where did this notion come from that Colter did not ente=
r or discover Yellowstone. I have read it some where but for the life of me=20=
I cannot remember where or the reasoning be hind it. That he only made it to=
 Cody and Colter's hell that is there and move south of the Lake. Am I up in=
 the night or is there some proof out there that proves he did not enter Yel=
lowstone and disproves Clarks maps? I thought someone out there could shed s=
ome light on this for me.
<BR>See ya on the Trail
<BR>Crazy Cyot
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:34:29 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: off topic

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Ben
I have a post to send you but messages sent to your email account are =
rejected with the reason said to be "over quota".  Let me know when you =
free up some space and I will send it.  It is nothing that won't keep.


Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Ben</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>I have a post to send you =
but messages=20
sent to your email account are rejected with the reason said =
to=20
be "over quota".  Let me know when you free up some space and =
I will=20
send it.  It is nothing that won't keep.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney Ratcliff<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
<BR>______________________________________________________________<BR>Aux=
=20
Aliments du Pays<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:56:38 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ben's book

Ben
    I went and accidentially deleted your message with your full name and
book title. Strange thing for me, as I have never even dry balled a gun. <G>
    Oh,well. Would you please resend to the list. I am going to try to
pre-order a copy from Barnes and Noble, that way they will ship as soon as
received.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, AR
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/
http://www.geocities.com/rifleman1776/photopageflag.html


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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:09:52 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM-List: Texas Town Names...OFF TOPIC

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Two Texas towns that figure heavily in the shuttle debris investigation =
are Nacogdoches and Palestine.  Virtually all out of state reporters are =
mispronouncing those towns' names.  If you want to pronounce them like =
the residents do try the following:

Not "Pala-stine" but "Pala-steen"
Not "Naka-dough-shus" but "Naka-DOUGH-chus"

I realize this ain't a big deal, but I'm tired of big deals for a while. =
 I realize that millions heard the explosion but being one who did hear =
it brings the whole disaster closer and more personal.  I can't imagine =
how those folks who are finding their homes littered with shuttle parts =
(and body parts now) are going to be effected.  It's the least we can do =
to pronounce the names of their towns right.=20
God bless 'em.  God bless us.  Most of all, may God bless the crew and =
their families.

Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Two Texas towns that figure =
heavily in=20
the shuttle debris investigation are Nacogdoches and Palestine.  =
Virtually=20
all out of state reporters are mispronouncing those towns' names.  =
If you=20
want to pronounce them like the residents do try the =
following:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Not "Pala-stine" but=20
"Pala-steen"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Not "Naka-dough-shus" but=20
"Naka-DOUGH-chus"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>I realize this ain't a big =
deal, but=20
I'm tired of big deals for a while.  I realize that millions heard =
the=20
explosion but being one who did hear it brings the whole disaster closer =
and=20
more personal.  I can't imagine how those folks who are finding =
their homes=20
littered with shuttle parts (and body parts now) are going to be =
effected. =20
It's the least we can do to pronounce the names of their towns right.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>God bless 'em.  God =
bless=20
us.  Most of all, may God bless the crew and their =
families.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney Ratcliff<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
<BR>______________________________________________________________<BR>Aux=
=20
Aliments du Pays<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:32:37 -0800
From: "Ben" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ben's book

Hi Frank,

Sure, no problem.
The title of the book is  Chase the Wind, if the publishers don't change it.
My name is Bennett H. Bracken, and after the book comes out I hope I don't
have to change it.  G>

Amazon won't have an inkling of what you're talking about,  YET!!  I'll make
sure you're given ample warning  before it comes out.

Thanks a bunch,
Ben
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
To: "hist_text-digest" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 5:56 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Ben's book


> Ben
>     I went and accidentially deleted your message with your full name and
> book title. Strange thing for me, as I have never even dry balled a gun.
<G>
>     Oh,well. Would you please resend to the list. I am going to try to
> pre-order a copy from Barnes and Noble, that way they will ship as soon as
> received.
> Frank G. Fusco
> Mountain Home, AR
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/
> http://www.geocities.com/rifleman1776/photopageflag.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:39:04 -0800
From: "Ben" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic

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Hi Lanney,
I have no idea why I'd be over quota.  I'm recieving fifty or sixty =
emails a day, but download them from the server half a dozen times a =
day. (a bunch of them wanting to help make certain body appendages =
longer, or my wife's bust bigger)  I'll get in touch with my ISP and =
find out what's going on.
Thanks,
Ben

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
  To: History List=20
  Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 5:34 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: off topic


  Ben
  I have a post to send you but messages sent to your email account are =
rejected with the reason said to be "over quota".  Let me know when you =
free up some space and I will send it.  It is nothing that won't keep.


  Lanney Ratcliff
  [e-mail]
  ______________________________________________________________
  Aux Aliments du Pays


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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Lanney,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have no idea why I'd be over =
quota.  I'm=20
recieving fifty or sixty emails a day, but download them from the server =
half a=20
dozen times a day. (a bunch of them wanting to help =
make certain body=20
appendages longer, or my wife's bust bigger)  I'll get in touch =
with my ISP=20
and find out what's going on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ben</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Lanney Ratcliff</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">History List</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 05, =
2003 5:34=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: off =
topic</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Ben</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>I have a post to send you =
but=20
  messages sent to your email account are rejected with the =
reason=20
  said to be "over quota".  Let me know when you free up some =
space=20
  and I will send it.  It is nothing that won't keep.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney Ratcliff<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
<BR>______________________________________________________________<BR>Aux=
=20
  Aliments du Pays<BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:08:35 -0600
From: "John Dearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: twists

> Capt,
>      That is an excellent webpage, thank you.  I was given the advice from
> a friend of between a 1-72" to 1-80" inch twist for a .54. The calculator
> said, I believe, a twist minimum of 80. I was just curious as to how
> Frank's gun shoots with a 72" inch twist.

Don't know about rifling twist calculations, but I had a .54 H&H barrel with
1-56
twists that shot like a house afire. It didn't much care what powder charge
I put in it.
It always shot good.
J.D.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:52:32 -0700 (MST)
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Union Headliner

Dear List,
     The 21st annual Fort Union Rendezvous takes place June 19-22, 2003. I
just got a letter today from the fort and the headliner this year is John
Luzader, a professional first person interpreter. Luzader will present an
impersonation of Sargeant Patrick Gass of the L&C Expedition. Also
returning are nearly two dozen of your favorite demonstrators. There are
some very good and interesting demo's at the rendezvous. It cost nothing
to pitch a camp at the fort! I don't know about traders, contact the fort.
There is firewood and water provided.
     Saturday morning is the Rendezvous Run which is a regular foot race
for real runners however there is a one mile Fur Trader division which is
a lot of fun for all. You must walk or run in primitive clothing and
footwear and carry a stick, rifle, paddle or tumpline a load etc... It
cost a little to enter but it really is a ton of fun for all that
participate. All that enter get a medal and nice t-shirt plus a very
heatlthy breakfast after the race. The worse part is walking or running
through camp and smelling all the bacon cooking!
     There is an imformal dance Saturday night in the fort which is really
a grand time for all ages. The paddle dance is a classic. Live music is
provided.
     I'm posting this now so anyone interested can start making plans. If
your coming from the east North Dakota is loaded with historical locations
to visit. Its an interesting drive from any direction.
     Fort Union is truly the grandest fort on the Upper Missouri and is
located only one mile or so from the confluence of the Yellowstone and the
Missouri. You will not be sorry you came! This I can guarantee you. Be
sure to read Larpenteur's book "Forty years a fur trader on the Upper
Missouri" beforehand if you can as this is where most of it took place.
     If you make it be sure to track down the beaver skinner (me) and say
hello. I'll have a cold beer or some hot coffee for anyone on the list. I
stay in the north east bastion.
            Hope to see some of you there,
                                 beaverboy



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:03:37 -0700
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Ho, the list,

Well, Crazy, I'm partly to blame since some of my articles and books on =
early mapping and exploration of the Rockies have given a different =
interpretation of Clark's map than you indicate. In fact, Clark's map =
proves my thesis about Colter's route rather than the other way =
around--but you have to use Clark's manuscript rather than the published =
edition.

Let me begin by saying that I grew up in the Cody area, worked for the =
Forest Service in Dubois, in the Wind River valley, and know the area =
"like the back of my hand." Clark's 1810 map (the manuscript =
version--not the engraved published version) shows Colter's route as =
staying east of the Continental Divide. The lake that most historians =
have assumed is Jackson Lake on the map (yes, there was a lake =
there--the present dam has just made it bigger) is not Jackson Lake at =
all but Brooks Lake just east of the Continental Divide at Togwotee =
Pass. Clark's map clearly shows this lake as the source of the Wind =
River/Big Horn and clearly shows the mountains dividing the Wind River =
drainage from the "Lewis's River" or Snake drainage as west of the =
lake--a pretty darn good rendition of the geography of the upper Wind =
River. The map does not show the Tetons or any other recognizable =
features west of the Continental Divide. So: Biddle Lake is not Jackson =
Lake but Brooks Lake and Lake Eustis is, as you indicate Yellowstone =
Lake.

We know for a fact that the thermal activity noted by Colter was in the =
vicinity of Cody, Wyoming since a manuscript map drawn by Clark from =
sketches by both Colter and George Drouillard render the geography of =
the Cody area perfectly: the South Fork and North Fork of the Shoshone =
coming together west of the canyon, Heart Mountain to the north of the =
river, and "boiling springs" to the east of the Shoshone Canyon--right =
where the Cody Stampede rodeo grounds now sit. In fact, across the =
highway from the rodeo grounds is an inactive geyser cone with =
travertine deposits recent enough to suggest that it was active when =
Colter was there and he probably saw an eruption since he described it =
to Clark. The Demaris Hot Springs are in the same area and, although =
less active now, were active enough when I was a boy in the 40s and 50s =
to attract tourists to "take the waters."

Here is my interpretation of Colter's route, based on 35 years of study: =
from Lisa's fort at the mouth of the Big Horn, across the Pryor =
Mountains to the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone, possibly up the =
Clark's Fork into the Sunlight Basin and then back out to the area just =
south of where the Clark's Fork comes out of the mountains. From there, =
Colter headed south, crossed the low drainage divide to the Shoshone =
with Heart Mountain on his left. He spent some time in the Cody area, =
probably didn't go through the canyon but around the southern end of =
Cedar Mountain to the junction of the South and North Forks of the =
Shoshone. He may have tried to go up the South Fork in search of a route =
to the south but was probably stymied by the terrain and the snow. =
(Remember he was on foot and traveling in January-February.) The =
mountains on the south side of the southern branch of the Shoshone rise =
almost vertically from the valley floor--not something that any =
reasonable man would have tried to scale in mid-winter. I've crossed =
several of the passes between the Shoshone drainage and the Wind River =
drainage in this area and on most of them, got off my horse and led her =
rather than staying aboard--and I'm not afraid of heights!. So Colter =
probably came back down the South Fork, around the southern end of =
Carter Mountain, south across the Greybull River (just west of =
Meteetsee, Wyoming, and then across a low pass in the Owl Creek =
Mountains west of Thermopolis, Wyoming to the Wind River (if he'd gone =
through the Wind River Canyon, he surely would have noted it when he =
conveyed information to Clark). He traveled up the Wind River to its =
source in Brooks Lake, then turned north along the eastern base of the =
mountains (remember the steep cliffs in the movie "Mountain Man"?--those =
are the mountains west of Brooks Lake) through Turpin Meadows and into =
what is now Yellowstone. He probably skirted Yellowstone Lake on the =
east, staying between the lake and the Absarokas, forded the river at =
the traditional Shoshone crossing downstream from the Grand Canyon of =
the Yellowstone (again, there is no evidence that he saw the Grand =
Canyon because that feature doesn't appear on Clark's map either). In =
the vicinity of the junction of the Yellowstone and Lamar, he fell in =
with a group of Bannock Shoshones, heading for the buffalo hunting =
grounds of the Great Plains. Traveling with the Indians, he crossed =
between the Lamar River drainage and the Clark's Fork drainage over what =
we now call "Colter's Pass"--near present-day Cooke City, Montana--and =
down the Clark's Fork through the Sunlight Basin country, probably =
crossing over Dead Indian Hill (just like the Nez Perce would do 70 =
years later in their flight from the US Army), to the Shoshone River and =
down the Shoshone to its junction with the Big Horn and down the Big =
Horn to Lisa's fort.

Let me stress that this is the only route that is consistent with the =
information presented on Clark's 1810 manuscript map, and the Clark map =
of the Big Horn Basin drawn from information provided by Colter and =
Droulliard. Unfortunately, in producing the engraving for the 1814 =
published edition of Clark's map, Samuel Lewis (the engraver and no =
relation to Meriwether) misread some of Clark's manuscript and showed =
Colter's route crossing the Continental Divide all right and then =
turning and recrossing into the Yellowstone drainage. What river was =
Colter on, according to the published map, when he crossed the Divide =
just west of the Wind River? Why the Rio del Norte, of course--and =
that's the term used by Clark and others to describe the Rio Grande! For =
sure, according to the 1814 map, Colter was not on the Snake--and he =
wasn't on the Snake according to Clark's manuscript either.

One more comment: at the Teton N.P. headquarters at Moose, there is a =
rock roughly carved into the shape of a man's head with the name "J. =
Colter" inscribed on it. This rock was turned up in a farmer's field in =
Idaho, west of Teton Pass and the Teton Range in the 1930s and has been =
used as proof that Colter was in Jackson's Hole, crossed Teton Pass, =
and--for reasons that no one has ever been able to explain--spent =
precious time carving a rock into the shape of a man's head and =
inscribing his name into it. There are several things wrong with this =
piece of evidence: first, why in the world would Colter ever have done =
such a thing?; second, Colter couldn't read or write--even his own name =
(in the Lewis and Clark Expedition records, he's made a mark next to a =
signature obviously written by Lewis); third, a letter from a soldier =
accompanying the Hayden expedition into Yellowstone and the Tetons in =
1872 describes how this soldier "hoaxed" others by carving the names of =
early explorers on rocks, trees, etc.

If you want a reading list, please contact me off-list as this message =
is already far too long.

Watch the skyline.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:01 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Colter and Yellowstone


  Hello in the camps=20
  I've got a question for ya all.=20
  I have read that Colter did not acutely enter Yellowstone and the only =
hot spring that he found were over by Cody that is where Colter's Hell =
is. But It is assumed Colter told Clark of the things he had seen in his =
years of travel as a trapper, as the map that appeared in Nicholas =
Biddle's 1814 version of the Lewis and Clark journals reflects Colter's =
knowledge." this map shows Colter's rout coming from west of the Tetons, =
going along the west shore of Lake Biddle (Jackson Lake) and proceeding =
to the north, to Lake Eustis (Yellowstone Lake), traversing north along =
the west short of that, then heading east when he gets to the north end =
of the lake.  He proceeds NE along the Yellowstone River, fording the =
river at some hot springs. This rout would have took him right by some =
of the thermal activity in Yellowstone and seem to be in well in to =
Yellowstone.=20

  The question is where did this notion come from that Colter did not =
enter or discover Yellowstone. I have read it some where but for the =
life of me I cannot remember where or the reasoning be hind it. That he =
only made it to Cody and Colter's hell that is there and move south of =
the Lake. Am I up in the night or is there some proof out there that =
proves he did not enter Yellowstone and disproves Clarks maps? I thought =
someone out there could shed some light on this for me.=20
  See ya on the Trail=20
  Crazy Cyot=20




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<HTML><HEAD>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ho, the list,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well, Crazy, I'm partly to blame since =
some of my=20
articles and books on early mapping and exploration of the Rockies have =
given a=20
different interpretation of Clark's map than you indicate. In fact, =
Clark's map=20
proves my thesis about Colter's route rather than the other way =
around--but you=20
have to use Clark's manuscript rather than the published =
edition.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Let me begin by saying that I grew up =
in the Cody=20
area, worked for the Forest Service in Dubois, in the Wind River valley, =
and=20
know the area "like the back of my hand." Clark's 1810 map (the =
manuscript=20
version--not the engraved published version) shows Colter's route as =
staying=20
east of the Continental Divide. The lake that most historians =
have=20
assumed is Jackson Lake on the map (yes, there was a lake there--the =
present dam=20
has just made it bigger) is not Jackson Lake at all but Brooks Lake just =
east of=20
the Continental Divide at Togwotee Pass. Clark's map clearly shows this =
lake as=20
the source of the Wind River/Big Horn and clearly shows the mountains =
dividing=20
the Wind River drainage from the "Lewis's River" or Snake drainage as =
west of=20
the lake--a pretty darn good rendition of the geography of the upper =
Wind River.=20
The map does not show the Tetons or any other recognizable features west =
of the=20
Continental Divide. So: Biddle Lake is not Jackson Lake but Brooks Lake =
and Lake=20
Eustis is, as you indicate Yellowstone Lake.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We know for a fact that the thermal =
activity noted=20
by Colter was in the vicinity of Cody, Wyoming since a manuscript map =
drawn by=20
Clark from sketches by both Colter and George Drouillard render the =
geography of=20
the Cody area perfectly: the South Fork and North Fork of the Shoshone =
coming=20
together west of the canyon, Heart Mountain to the north of the river, =
and=20
"boiling springs" to the east of the Shoshone Canyon--right where the =
Cody=20
Stampede rodeo grounds now sit. In fact, across the highway from the =
rodeo=20
grounds is an inactive geyser cone with travertine deposits recent =
enough to=20
suggest that it was active when Colter was there and he probably saw an=20
eruption since he described it to Clark. The Demaris Hot Springs =
are in the=20
same area and, although less active now, were active enough when I was a =
boy in=20
the 40s and 50s to attract tourists to "take the waters."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here is my interpretation of Colter's =
route, based=20
on 35 years of study: from Lisa's fort at the mouth of the Big Horn, =
across the=20
Pryor Mountains to the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone, possibly up the =
Clark's=20
Fork into the Sunlight Basin and then back out to the area just south of =
where=20
the Clark's Fork comes out of the mountains. From there, Colter headed =
south,=20
crossed the low drainage divide to the Shoshone with Heart Mountain on =
his left.=20
He spent some time in the Cody area, probably didn't go through the =
canyon but=20
around the southern end of Cedar Mountain to the junction of the South =
and North=20
Forks of the Shoshone. He may have tried to go up the South Fork in =
search of a=20
route to the south but was probably stymied by the terrain and the snow. =

(Remember he was on foot and traveling in January-February.) The =
mountains on=20
the south side of the southern branch of the Shoshone rise almost =
vertically=20
from the valley floor--not something that any reasonable man would have =
tried to=20
scale in mid-winter. I've crossed several of the passes between the =
Shoshone=20
drainage and the Wind River drainage in this area and on most of them, =
got off=20
my horse and led her rather than staying aboard--and I'm not afraid of =
heights!.=20
So Colter probably came back down the South Fork, around the southern =
end of=20
Carter Mountain, south across the Greybull River (just west of =
Meteetsee,=20
Wyoming, and then across a low pass in the Owl Creek Mountains west of=20
Thermopolis, Wyoming to the Wind River (if he'd gone through the Wind =
River=20
Canyon, he surely would have noted it when he conveyed information to =
Clark). He=20
traveled up the Wind River to its source in Brooks Lake, then turned =
north along=20
the eastern base of the mountains (remember the steep cliffs in the =
movie=20
"Mountain Man"?--those are the mountains west of Brooks Lake) through =
Turpin=20
Meadows and into what is now Yellowstone. He probably skirted =
Yellowstone Lake=20
on the east, staying between the lake and the Absarokas, forded the =
river at the=20
traditional Shoshone crossing downstream from the Grand Canyon of the=20
Yellowstone (again, there is no evidence that he saw the Grand Canyon =
because=20
that feature doesn't appear on Clark's map either). In the vicinity of =
the=20
junction of the Yellowstone and Lamar, he fell in with a group of =
Bannock=20
Shoshones, heading for the buffalo hunting grounds of the Great Plains.=20
Traveling with the Indians, he crossed between the Lamar River drainage =
and the=20
Clark's Fork drainage over what we now call "Colter's Pass"--near =
present-day=20
Cooke City, Montana--and down the Clark's Fork through the Sunlight =
Basin=20
country, probably crossing over Dead Indian Hill (just like the Nez =
Perce would=20
do 70 years later in their flight from the US Army), to the Shoshone =
River and=20
down the Shoshone to its junction with the Big Horn and down the Big =
Horn to=20
Lisa's fort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Let me stress that this is the only =
route that is=20
consistent with the information presented on Clark's 1810 manuscript =
map, and=20
the Clark map of the Big Horn Basin drawn from information provided by =
Colter=20
and Droulliard. Unfortunately, in producing the engraving for the 1814 =
published=20
edition of Clark's map, Samuel Lewis (the engraver and no relation to=20
Meriwether) misread some of Clark's manuscript and showed Colter's route =

crossing the Continental Divide all right and then turning and =
recrossing into=20
the Yellowstone drainage. What river was Colter on, according to the =
published=20
map, when he crossed the Divide just west of the Wind River? Why the Rio =
del=20
Norte, of course--and that's the term used by Clark and others to =
describe the=20
Rio Grande! For sure, according to the 1814 map, Colter was not on the=20
Snake--and he wasn't on the Snake according to Clark's manuscript=20
either.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One more comment: at the Teton N.P. =
headquarters at=20
Moose, there is a rock roughly carved into the shape of a man's head =
with the=20
name "J. Colter" inscribed on it. This rock was turned up in a farmer's =
field in=20
Idaho, west of Teton Pass and the Teton Range in the 1930s and has been =
used as=20
proof that Colter was in Jackson's Hole, crossed Teton Pass, and--for =
reasons=20
that no one has ever been able to explain--spent precious time carving a =
rock=20
into the shape of a man's head and inscribing his name into it. There =
are=20
several things wrong with this piece of evidence: first, why in the =
world would=20
Colter ever have done such a thing?; second, Colter couldn't read or =
write--even=20
his own name (in the Lewis and Clark Expedition records, he's made a =
mark next=20
to a signature obviously written by Lewis); third, a letter from a =
soldier=20
accompanying the Hayden expedition into Yellowstone and the Tetons in =
1872=20
describes how this soldier "hoaxed" others by carving the names of early =

explorers on rocks, trees, etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you want a reading list, please =
contact me=20
off-list as this message is already far too long.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Watch the skyline.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Dr. John L. Allen<BR>2703 Leslie Court<BR>Laramie, WY =
82072-2979<BR>Phone:=20
[phone]<BR>e-mail: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 05, =
2003 1:01=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Colter and =

  Yellowstone</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Hello in =
the camps=20
  <BR>I've got a question for ya all. <BR>I have read that Colter did =
not=20
  acutely enter Yellowstone and the only hot spring that he found were =
over by=20
  Cody that is where Colter's Hell is. But It is assumed Colter told =
Clark of=20
  the things he had seen in his years of travel as a trapper, as the map =
that=20
  appeared in Nicholas Biddle's 1814 version of the Lewis and Clark =
journals=20
  reflects Colter's knowledge." this map shows Colter's rout coming from =
west of=20
  the Tetons, going along the west shore of Lake Biddle (Jackson Lake) =
and=20
  proceeding to the north, to Lake Eustis (Yellowstone Lake), traversing =
north=20
  along the west short of that, then heading east when he gets to the =
north end=20
  of the lake.  He proceeds NE along the Yellowstone River, fording =
the=20
  river at some hot springs. This rout would have took him right by some =
of the=20
  thermal activity in Yellowstone and seem to be in well in to =
Yellowstone.=20
  <BR><BR>The question is where did this notion come from that Colter =
did not=20
  enter or discover Yellowstone. I have read it some where but for the =
life of=20
  me I cannot remember where or the reasoning be hind it. That he only =
made it=20
  to Cody and Colter's hell that is there and move south of the Lake. Am =
I up in=20
  the night or is there some proof out there that proves he did not =
enter=20
  Yellowstone and disproves Clarks maps? I thought someone out there =
could shed=20
  some light on this for me. <BR>See ya on the Trail <BR>Crazy Cyot=20
  <BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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