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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1120 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, December 9 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1120 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns & New Rifle Suggestions -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fort Benton Restoration -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -áááááá MtMan-List: Can You Explain This? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -áááááá MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:47:03 -0700 (MST) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns & New Rifle Suggestions > Mike, That would be great as I'd love to see it. I'm pretty sure our library here may not have AH that far back. People have menitoned not being able to send images on this web page though Magpie has. If there is a problem, you can always send it to me off list too. I'll be selling my fur before too long and I need to decide on a nice historically correct rifle kit to purchase. This rifle sounds like a good one to look at. I'm thinking a poorboy style in a .54 cal. Something a poor trapper like me would have packed around. Any suggestions on a good flinter for me to choose from are welcomed from the list. After using a fusee for 5 years I just want a .50 or .54 with set triggers and a rear site and Holy Cow!, rifling! I'd like it to be as light as possible too. Thanks for any help in advance. Beaverboy > The rifle is a full stocked poor boy style flintlock rifle with a > wooden patchbox lid and brass furniture and roman nosed stock. There >> with hunting pouch and powder horn and all accoutrements is owned by a >> collector in Virginia. Attached to the strap of the bag in the >> accompanying photo is an original loading block that is obviously very >> old. It is a single piece of hardwood with 4 bullet sized holes bored >> into it in a single line. In the holes are patched round balls. Old >> patches and old oxidized lead balls. The pouch and horn, rifle and >> accoutrements all date from before 1842. The hunter died of old age in >> 1842. Excellent article with nice color photos of the powder horn with >> a repair on it, and all of the contents of the hunting pouch along >> with the rifle. The family kept the gun until the 1970s when it was >> sold to the collector who allowed it to be photographed for the >> magazine. There is no reason to doubt the authenticity of the articles >> because the whole article was put together before people sat around >> and nit picked such subjects. At least after close axamination of the >> photos I find them to be genuine in my humble opinion. Mike B >> Wynn Ormond wrote: >>> Thanks for your answer! I suspected as much even though having no set >>> charges readly available seems counter intuitive given that they seem >>> to have had loading blocks. BTW, an pouch horn is just similar to a >>> powder horn but is flat and placed inside the huniting bag > isn't any carving. A nice rifle similiar to a poor boy I own with the > difference being mine is percussion without a patch box and has a > copper toe plate. If you I can I will photograph the article with my > digital camera and then transmit it over the web on this site. M. B > beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:> Hey Mike, > What kind of rifle was it? A flinter or what? Real curious about it. > Beaverboy >> concerning this issue of whether loading blocks were used in the fur >> trade days. I refer you to the Oct issue of American Hunter Magazine, >> 1975. Article entitled: "A Real Hunters Rifle." This particular rifle >>> instead worn outside. >>> >>> Two Feathers >> >> I will stand by my answer then that most of the art work shows a >> trapper with a horn on the outside of the pouch. >> >> I would like to see evidence of loading blocks. Other than carrying a >> few rounds in their mouth I have not seen anything of that like >> either. >> >> Wynn Ormond >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:06:41 -0700 (MST) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA I'd also like to add that all on this list should be members of the NRA, hunting associations and or trapping associations in your respected states. That is one good way of fighting this crapola. Its incredible knowing how many gun owners are not NRA members! Shame on you! I'd suggest at least the NRA and the National Trappers Association. You may not trap but you may want to set a beaver trap someday. Also the trapper is the one they keep trying to take down first then its the hunter, fishermen etc... The trapper has been getting hammered by so called do gooders for 30 years, the entire time I've been making lots of friends getting rid of skunks, beaver, feral cats, gophers and other pests for land and homeowners. Thats what I love about Ted Nugent, he always includes the trapper when he defends outdoorsmen. Right on Ted! BB >> >> To the list and anyone who will read this: >> >> Not often do I really give a damn about politics and the general >> nuisance > of >> the process. However, this is really wrong. Please read the link >> below. >> >> If, deep down, you care about your rights as a free man or women, this >> should scare you at the least. For me, it is one step to far. I am >> just angry that folks who cannot be content to just mind there own >> space are backing me into a corner. >> >> I am no revolutionary, but that does not mean we cannot push back. I > intend >> to start shoving. >> >> Yours, >> >> Nick De Santis ( Travler) >> >> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,72371,00.html >> > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 08:59:50 -0600 From: Windwalker <windwalker@fastmail.fm> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA On Sunday 08 December 2002 12:06, beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > I'd also like to add that all on this list should be members of the > NRA, hunting associations and or trapping associations in your respecte= d > states. That is one good way of fighting this crapola. Its incredible > knowing how many gun owners are not NRA members! Shame on you! > I'd suggest at least the NRA and the National Trappers Association. = You > may not trap but you may want to set a beaver trap someday. Also the > trapper is the one they keep trying to take down first then its the > hunter, fishermen etc... The trapper has been getting hammered by so > called do gooders for 30 years, the entire time I've been making lots o= f > friends getting rid of skunks, beaver, feral cats, gophers and other pe= sts > for land and homeowners. > Thats what I love about Ted Nugent, he always includes the trapper w= hen > he defends outdoorsmen. Right on Ted! > BB I hate to say this but I will.. its a matter of time before they clamp do= wn on=20 this "gun" laws... Its happening NOW not just talk.... comes under the=20 Patriot Act and war powers act... Having a muzzlelaoder will not be a problem... what will be is buying the= =20 powder... Some areas are already having trouble.... When the war powers act is in effect.. having constitition guarentees are= out=20 the door... Im might ad Im a life member of NRA and also NTA.. but then again even ha= ving=20 those two major org,s involved when push comes to shove they will loose u= nder=20 current laws in effect.. i.e search and siezure... had to have a search warrent right??? and just = cause=20 right?? Well now thats out door.... under current law they dont need neither and = its=20 in effect - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 18:30:12 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Benton Restoration In a message dated 12/8/02 7:55:28 AM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: << Every year after selling my fur I give some of the proceeds to the Fort Benton Restoration Fund. . . . . >> Good News! And for anyone who is less than enthusiastically interested in this project, read any (all) of the books buy J. Willard Schultz. (You should have read them by now anyway.) Sincerely Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:37:45 -0500 From: "traprjon" <traprjon@attbi.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA Of course BeaverBoy is right, and pardon my not thinking to mention trapping with the 2nd amendment talk. It is one of my pet peeves that when our Fish & Game Dept talks about the "blood sports" they say "hunting and fishing" instead of "hunting, trapping and fishing" like I always tell them they should say. The point is, as BeaverBoy pointed out, we are all under attack but firstly and mostly the trappers!!! He is also right that everyone of us needs to belong to at very least one organization that fights for each right!!! Our heritage, what we do and teach as mountaineers is at steak not to mention our very Liberty!!! I personally am a Life member of NRA, Life Member of Gun Owners of America (in my opinion the better of the 2 organizations and for only $50.00!!!), Life Member of NH Trappers Assn, 5 yr member of GO-NH, regular member of National Trappers Assn, Fur Takers of America, and NH Wildlife Assn (NOT National Wildlife Assn)!!! Windwalker may be right about the current law, but at my house the Constitution and Bill of Rights still stands and is guaranteed by my firearms!!! I have to say no warrant or no probable cause, no trespassing!!! Our founding Fathers said it should be so!!! Looks like Black Powder needs to become a priority as ammunition and reloading supplies have been!!! As we have ice in a lot of places now, and I am getting too old to trap beavers through the ice, I am on a fisher hunt now and today had a nice big male in a trap!!! I hope your hunting and trappin seasons have/are going well!!! Sincerely, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@attbi.com ***************************************************************** "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men (ie: people) capable of bearing arms." - -- Richard Henry Lee - Senator, First Continental Congress - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 03:41:43 +0000 From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Can You Explain This? Mr. Kramer, Maybe you(or someone else on the list) could explain the critical attitude expressed by many AMM and Buckskinners in regards to reenactors? I fail to see the hangup some have with that particular group. How can one faithfully recreate the Rocky Mountain furtrapper while using equipment & clothing that can't be documented? That applies to all historic personas be they F&I, Rev War, RMFT, Tex Rev, Mex War or Civil War. Alot of people out there spend ALOT of time researching what was available and what was used by all the above mentioned time periods and yes, reenactors may spend more time arguing about details but there are just as many who could care less if they used a Zouave rifle at an 1830's event as there are who are concerned whether or not their clothes are the proper cut for their chosen period. I don't mean to go off on a rant here, just interested in the reasoning behind the mass criticism reenactors draw from Buckskinners and some AMM members. Enjoy the discussions and comments, it's good to see the list active again! Dios, Libertad y Tejas Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." General Ethan Allen Hitchcock _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 18:00:42 -0600 From: Windwalker <windwalker@fastmail.fm> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA On Sunday 08 December 2002 19:37, traprjon wrote: > > Windwalker may be right about the current law, but at my house the > Constitution and Bill of Rights still stands and is guaranteed by my > firearms!!! I have to say no warrant or no probable cause, no > trespassing!!! Our founding Fathers said it should be so!!! Looks lik= e > Black Powder needs to become a priority as ammunition and reloading > supplies have been!!! > > As we have ice in a lot of places now, and I am getting too old to trap > beavers through the ice, I am on a fisher hunt now and today had a nice= big > male in a trap!!! I hope your hunting and trappin seasons have/are goi= ng > well!!! > > Sincerely, > John Enos > TrapRJohn > traprjon@attbi.com > ***************************************************************** I hate to bust a bubble.. but there is no bill of rights when war powers = act=20 is in effect. If it was then random searches done in MN would not be being done. Its not even debateable in a court. Once federal steps in as they have. the Patriot Act now in effect is really whats has done alot in and has th= e=20 power to do more Im not saying your beliefs are wrong mind you... But with these now in ef= fect=20 laws they can do about what ever they want... And If America goes to war then watch all closed areas and wildlife areas {alaska} will be opened up= for=20 oil.. Thats in congress now. I forgot exact bill number. All it takes as it stands is a stroke of the pen form the pres and its a = done=20 deal. under the exisiting in force laws.. I know.. it sucks..... - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:20:15 -0500 From: "traprjon" <traprjon@attbi.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA Windwalker, Apparently you missed my point, or perhaps I was not clear enough. This new "law" you talk about is Unconstitutional, therefore illegal!!! The government has NO right to legislate in the areas of the Bill of Rights and no law supersedes or postpones our Constitutional Rights!!! The new "laws" are not legal because the government illegally took the power to enact them as has been done so many times in history. They may really be doing these things, disguised under the color of law, but it is NOT legal!!! The Founding Fathers did NOT want Martial law in this country-ever!!! That's why we have civilian police. That's why it is supposed to be a government of the People, by the People, for the People. The People need to supervise the government, which has not been done for a long time now. That's why the government has gotten to the point it has. I bet NO veteran ever fought to defend this country to let the government become the super power it is superseding the Peoples rights!!! I know I didn't!!! The Founding Fathers sought to prevent this from happening by giving the People the tools to control it, namely the Bill of Rights!!! How many of us are willing to give all that our Founding Fathers and other Patriots gave to make us Free People in a Free Nation??? Some gave all, their families, their property and their lives because they believed in leaving Liberty to the next generation of Americans!!! ************************************************************* Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state government, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. -- Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788. ************************************************************************ "... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. ... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -- Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 ************************************************************************ There is no busted bubble here, I am well aware what is happening throughout the country via a misnamed "Patriot Act". However, the Constitution is still alive and healthy at my house until such time as it is illegally overthrown!!! We would all be wise to give this subject some thought. At some point the way things are going, big brother will come more rather than less intrusively into our lives and our Children's and Grandchildren's lives in an Unconstitutional and harsh way unless we can get our country back!!! That's going to take a hell of a lot more contact with elected officials by a hell of a lot more Citizens than have been involved lately!!! While this is everyone's concern like it or not, probably any more discussion on this thread should be off list. My e-mail address is below for those interested. Sincerely, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@attbi.com ************************************************************* "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms . . " -- SAMUEL ADAMS ************************************************************************ "We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution. --Abraham Lincoln Windwalker Wrote: > I hate to bust a bubble.. but there is no bill of rights when war powers act > is in effect. > If it was then random searches done in MN would not be being done. > Its not even debateable in a court. Once federal steps in as they have. > the Patriot Act now in effect is really whats has done alot in and has the > power to do more > Im not saying your beliefs are wrong mind you... But with these now in effect > laws they can do about what ever they want... And If America goes to war > then watch all closed areas and wildlife areas {alaska} will be opened up for > oil.. Thats in congress now. I forgot exact bill number. > All it takes as it stands is a stroke of the pen form the pres and its a done > deal. under the exisiting in force laws.. I know.. it sucks..... - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:08:17 -0600 From: Windwalker <windwalker@fastmail.fm> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA On Monday 09 December 2002 02:20, traprjon wrote: > Windwalker, > Apparently you missed my point, or perhaps I was not clear enough.=20 > This new "law" you talk about is Unconstitutional, therefore illegal!!!= =20 > The government has NO right to legislate in the areas of the Bill of Ri= ghts > and no law supersedes or postpones our Constitutional Rights!!! The n= ew > "laws" are not legal because the government illegally took the power to > enact them as has been done so many times in history. They may really = be > doing these things, disguised under the color of law, but it is NOT > legal!!! The Founding Fathers did NOT want Martial law in this > country-ever!!! That's why we have civilian police. That's why it is > supposed to be a government of the People, by the People, for the Peopl= e.=20 > The People need to supervise the government, which has not been done fo= r a > long time now. That's why the government has gotten to the point it ha= s.=20 > I bet NO veteran ever fought to defend this country to let the governme= nt > become the super power it is superseding the Peoples rights!!! I know = I > didn't!!! The Founding Fathers sought to prevent this from happening b= y > giving the People the tools to control it, namely the Bill of Rights!!!= =20 > How many of us are willing to give all that our Founding Fathers and ot= her > Patriots gave to make us Free People in a Free Nation??? Some gave all= , > their families, their property and their lives because they believed in > leaving Liberty to the next generation of Americans!!! > ************************************************************* > Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every o= ther > terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...= The > unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal = or > state government, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the > hands of the people. -- Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 178= 8. > ***********************************************************************= * > "... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion= =2E > ... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the b= lood > of patriots and tyrants. -- Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 > ***********************************************************************= * You are totally incorrect, its fully with in the constition, the war powe= rs=20 act is in it as amemended as well as the recent partiot act citing old constitution lawa has no affect on modern ammendements as thy have alread= y=20 been passed. By way of the president in a offical order, the acts WERE PASSED and in e= ffect keep track of all the ammendements over the years and one will see the=20 constitution has been modified many times. Founding fathers views have no issue with current in force laws brought f= orth=20 by 911 events. I see you dont remember what was done in WWII rations.. could not buy cars...no new guns... all with the stroke of a pe= n. Where one believes it or not.. guns will not be owned in say 4 decades.. = Laws=20 now are making it harder to own... little by little they will be phased o= ut.. Happened in Aussie land as well as England and Canada.. People harp on right to bear arms.. yes own guns.. but keep point the mil= itia is now know as the National Guard and reserves. Also there is a vast difference between the War powers act and patriot ac= t and the martial law act... In a full blown war the president can declare=20 martial law..... that would be hard to argue with a guardsman pointing a=20 loaded m16 in ones face. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:15:07 -0600 From: Windwalker <windwalker@fastmail.fm> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA On Monday 09 December 2002 02:20, traprjon wrote: > Windwalker, > Apparently you missed my point, or perhaps I was not clear enough.=20 > This new "law" you talk about is Unconstitutional, therefore illegal!!!= =20 > The government has NO right to legislate in the areas of the Bill of Ri= ghts > and no law supersedes or postpones our Constitutional Rights!!! The n= ew > "laws" are not legal because the government illegally took the power to > enact them as has been done so many times in history. They may really = be > doing these things, disguised under the color of law, but it is NOT > legal!!! The Founding Fathers did NOT want Martial law in this > country-ever!!! That's why we have civilian police. That's why it is > supposed to be a government of the People, by the People, for the Peopl= e.=20 > The People need to supervise the government, which has not been done fo= r a > long time now. That's why the government has gotten to the point it ha= s.=20 > I bet NO veteran ever fought to defend this country to let the governme= nt > become the super power it is superseding the Peoples rights!!! I know = I > didn't!!! The Founding Fathers sought to prevent this from happening b= y > giving the People the tools to control it, namely the Bill of Rights!!!= =20 > How many of us are willing to give all that our Founding Fathers and ot= her > Patriots gave to make us Free People in a Free Nation??? Some gave all= , > their families, their property and their lives because they believed in > leaving Liberty to the next generation of Americans!!! > ************************************************************* 1788- 2002.. alot of water over the dam and a lot of changes... when one is now pulled over at the borders for a "search" and routine che= ck be sure to tell them all of the above.... see where it lands ya. federal power supercedes civil authority and has recently - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:21:43 -0800 From: Alan Avery <aravery@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA "...Where one believes it or not.. guns will not be owned in say 4 decades.. Laws now are making it harder to own... little by little they will be phased out.. Happened in Aussie land as well as England and Canada..." I would have to take exception to the last part of this statement. We still have our guns in Canada, (most of them anyway.) What has happened here is that the federal government is requiring all Canadian to register all their guns. (with the exception of First Nations people, who are exempt.) So far, the government has spent in excess of 1 billion dollars to accomplish this, with little or no meaningful results. Estimates of compliance range from 90% (the government's figure, widely ridiculed by everyone else) down to 25% (a generally accepted figure from the National Firearms Association.) 9 of the 13 provinces and territories have declined to be a part of the system, or to even participate or help administer it.(In fact they are suing the federal government in the Canadian Supreme Court over the issue, as the provinces/territories maintain firearms have been and still are a provincial jurisdiction.) As of Dec 31 of this year, any Canadian with an unregistered gun is a criminal. The government is facing increasing pressure to dump the whole idea, but seem to be holding out so as to save face, as the whole stupid idea was theirs from the start. The RCMP (Mounties) estimate that of the guns registered at present, there are aprox. 25 - 35% registered incorrectly. If nothing else, Canada's efforts will serve as a wonderful example to the U.S. of what a dumb idea a gun registry is, and how impossible it is to make it work. Flintlocks by the way are exempt, as they are considered to "antiques" rather than firearms. (Not caplocks though) So, we Canadians still have our guns for now, what will happen in the future is open to debate. alan - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:40:22 -0800 From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors The question was asked, why do some members of the American Mountain Men look down on "re-enactors"? I will attempt to answer that question to the best of my ability. The American Mountain Men is dedicated to three principles: brotherhood amongst its members, survivalism, and researching the history of the original mountain men, who displayed the first two attributes to the highest degree. Some of our original members began as modern survivalists, then discovered that reliance on complex technology and modern synthetics can let you down, whereas skill in using simple reliable technology is a real help. This led to an interest in the methods and materials available to the Rocky Mountain trappers who did not merely survive, but prospered in the wilderness, for a year or more at a time, with very basic equipment, living entirely off the land (Aux Aliments du Pays). Although the A.M.M. is as varied as the individuals comprising our brotherhood, we are all dedicated to extending the history and practices of the original mountain men into our current times. To the greatest extent possible under modern restrictions, we try to re-create the conditions faced by the original mountain men, and re-experience their exploits. It is sometimes a subtle point, but we do not try to "re-enact" any particular event, such as a Civil War battle or rendezvous. Rather, we try to live "much as the mountain men did" for periods of time, and create our own "shining times". Part of our charter is to report on what works and what doesn't, in an effort to fill in he gaps in the historical record. The journals and pictures we have available don't speak of commonplace things, any more than you would burden a modern diary with exact descriptions of how you put gas in your car. Therefore, there is a great emphasis on "doing it", and we report the results in our magazine, the Tomahawk & Long Rifle. We have fellow travellers on this path, who approach "living history" from different perspectives. Many primarily want to to recreate the ambience of a simpler, friendlier time, and thus we have the many people who flock to rendezvous, where you can experience something of the feeling of 19th century life, if you don't look too closely at the modern conveniences and over-elaborate gear. Some of these people end up seeing how many "conveniences" they can eliminate, and some of these wind up as A.M.M. brothers, trying to use the old techniques as fully as possible. Other people are interested in "re-enacting" a historical event as closely as possible, and in this pursuit, they try to recreate historically correct uniforms, outfits, and gear, using research and accepted standards of authenticity. One of their prime objectives is to create a good "impression" of a historic person, be it soldier, settler, or trapper. Trying to accurately portray our history is a perfectly honorable pursuit, but the goal is clearly targeted towards presenting a good show to the public and fellow re-enactors. Some A.M.M. members, I regret to say, may look down on people who appear more concerned with appearances than performance. A seasoned mountain man's appearance, whether in 1820 or 2002, is the natural result of starting with the commonly available materials of the time, and then living life much as it was lived in those days. The resulting "impression" is more of a byproduct than an end result, although many men are not above strutting a little when they have accomplished genuinely challenging feats of endurance. I would hope that A.M.M. members would extend respect and fellowship to anyone who has clearly worked hard on their research and outfit. Patience may wear a little thin over discussions of what is "correct" where we have actual experience of what works, and I suspect we all have a good laugh over the people who are elaborately turned out, but apparently never spent a night on the ground in their gear. These poor souls are missing the heart of the experience, but it is their loss, not ours. Respectfully submitted Patrick Quilter, A.M.M # 1658 - -----Original Message----- From: scott mcmahon [mailto:mountedranger@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:42 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: Can You Explain This? Mr. Kramer, Maybe you(or someone else on the list) could explain the critical attitude expressed by many AMM and Buckskinners in regards to reenactors? I fail to see the hangup some have with that particular group. How can one faithfully recreate the Rocky Mountain furtrapper while using equipment & clothing that can't be documented? That applies to all historic personas be they F&I, Rev War, RMFT, Tex Rev, Mex War or Civil War. Alot of people out there spend ALOT of time researching what was available and what was used by all the above mentioned time periods and yes, reenactors may spend more time arguing about details but there are just as many who could care less if they used a Zouave rifle at an 1830's event as there are who are concerned whether or not their clothes are the proper cut for their chosen period. I don't mean to go off on a rant here, just interested in the reasoning behind the mass criticism reenactors draw from Buckskinners and some AMM members. Enjoy the discussions and comments, it's good to see the list active again! Dios, Libertad y Tejas Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." General Ethan Allen Hitchcock _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:01:22 +0000 From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors Mr. Quilter, I appreciate your response! I myself started as a buckskinner evolved into a reenactor and then evolved into a "experimental archeologist" as Mark Baker calls it. I basically look at it as an extension of where I started at. I got tired of going to rendezvous and reenactments and seeing people wearing masses of trinkets and oddly fashioned clothing that didn't any more resemble say a Miller sketch than John wayne did in the Alamo! I wanted to use the proper equipment under the same)or as close to same) conditions our forefathers did. And so I have... I started doing short rides with period clothing, firearms and tack and it's progressed into a small company of dedicated living historians portraying Texas rangers of the 1840's. I understand that some folks outside of reenacting look down on those who chose that path but please take notice that not all of them are "ignorant of old the ways". There are many excellent reenactors who would fit right into your description of the AMM and not miss a beat. It's just been irritating to hear so many be so critical of the reenacting society based on their lose understanding of what it is. In all reality it's the same as buckskinning and rendezvous- some get it and some don't. I guess I really wanted an answer to this(glad it was from an AMM member) becuase I'm working on getting my papers sent through again(after reconsidering joining) for membership into that very group. I don't remember this being such an issue with so many members a few years ago when I started down this trail. Has something happened to stir this up? I'd love to carry on this conversation off-list if you're interested and again, thanks for your reply. Dios, Libertad y Tejas Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." General Ethan Allen Hitchcock _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 18:23:12 -0500 From: Wahkahchim@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors I'm neither a re-enactor or a buckskinner or even a trapper but I am finding your conversation fascinating. This way when I get done obtaining my CMP Distinguished Rifleman badge I'll know what to do next. Carry on! Pete - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:07:59 -0600 From: Windwalker <windwalker@fastmail.fm> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA On Monday 09 December 2002 13:21, Alan Avery wrote: > "...Where one believes it or not.. guns will not be owned in say 4 > decades.. Laws > now are making it harder to own... little by little they will be phased > out.. > Happened in Aussie land as well as England and Canada..." > > > > I would have to take exception to the last part of this statement. We s= till > have our guns in Canada, (most of them anyway.) What has happened here = is > that the federal government is requiring all Canadian to register all t= heir > guns. (with the exception of First Nations people, who are exempt.) So = far, > the government has spent in excess of 1 billion dollars to accomplish t= his, > with little or no meaningful results. Estimates of compliance range fro= m > 90% (the government's figure, widely ridiculed by everyone else) down t= o > 25% (a generally accepted figure from the National Firearms Association= =2E) 9 > of the 13 provinces and territories have declined to be a part of the > system, or to even participate or help administer it.(In fact they are > suing the federal government in the Canadian Supreme Court over the iss= ue, > as the > provinces/territories maintain firearms have been and still are a > provincial jurisdiction.) As of Dec 31 of this year, any Canadian with = an > unregistered gun is a criminal. The government is facing increasing > pressure to dump the whole idea, but seem to be holding out so as to sa= ve > face, as the whole stupid idea was theirs from the start. The RCMP > (Mounties) estimate that of the guns registered at present, there are > aprox. 25 - 35% registered incorrectly. If nothing else, Canada's effor= ts > will serve as a wonderful example to the U.S. of what a dumb idea a gun > registry is, and how impossible it is to make it work. Flintlocks by th= e > way are exempt, as they are considered to "antiques" rather than firear= ms. > (Not caplocks though) So, we Canadians still have our guns for now, wha= t > will happen in the future is open to debate. > > > alan > > >having them registraed is first step in knowing where they are > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - --=20 Note: Anything that appears to be an error in spelling or grammar is actu= ally=20 the author's clever use of the vernacular, and thus is a carefully placed= =20 literary device that demonstrates his writing prowess. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1120 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.