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hist_text-digest        Thursday, July 30 1998        Volume 01 : Number 112




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:30 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

I wonder if this has happened to anyone.  I had a striker that worked
well enough. It was misplaced and was not used for a year or so.  I
threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I was
browning a pistol barrel).  Now I find the darn thing, the striker, has
gone soft.  No spark and now has some real fine notches from the flint
in it.  Could some of you iron workers shed some light on this situation
for me?  Did I do wrong heating it up?
I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to have
made into a firepit hanger or something.
Thanks for your input and time.
J.D.Stoddard
(working on losing his green)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:24:14 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

>I had a striker that worked
>well enough.  I
>threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I was
>browning a pistol barrel).  Now I find the darn thing, the striker, has
>gone soft.  Did I do wrong heating it up?
>I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to have
>made into a firepit hanger or something.

All isn't lost.  It just has to be retempered.  Any smithy could do it for
you.  I think it has something to do with how it's quenched.  I have one
that was a "C" shape and I wanted to close off one of the ends to hold a
thong, so I had a smith do it.  After it was closed he had to reharden it.
I seem to remember him quenching it in oil, but there may have been another
step there somewhere.

Good luck.  No need to retire it as a pot hook yet.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:42:24 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wantabee wants to make loin cloth

pearce:

if I coutld type with out making errore the list would think i was
brillient---i have trouble spelling my name and getting it right..  i am
sure everyone got your point---at least you got one of them right---thats
50%-----

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:40:05 -0400 "Pearce Gardner" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>
>Before everyone jumps on me for my typo, I know it is not AMA, but
>rather
>AMM, sorry.
>
>
>>I figure in order to start doing this mountain man thing, the first
>article
>>of clothing should be a loin cloth.  what does everyone recommend,
>big
>>question, what size and weight of cloth, and what kind of belt or
>waist
>>strap to hold it on with?  I figure my persona is 1750's Virginia
>mountain
>>longhunter.  Is this persona acceptable to AMA? (I mean AMM, sorry)
>Any
>help and or advice in
>>this matter is greatly appreciated.
>>
>>Thanks for all your help in this matter.
>>
>>Gardner
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:29:53 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Charlie P. Webb)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:03:11 -0500 "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Kirk
>I have given the same advice to numerous pilgrims.
>
>
Lanney,
I believe your letter of advice to new comers is excellent,
possibly the best I have ever read. I would like to beg your
permission to reprint it in our local Fremont Trappers,
Monthly Report and the Colorado Springs Muzzle Loaders
Inc. Mountain Man Monthly news letters.  The Fremont
Trappers of Canon City Colorado are a small family oriented
group of about 30 families, and The Colorado Springs club
is  composed of some 80 families.  I believe that many
new folks to Buckskinning/living history would benefit from
reading  your "advise letter".  If you don't mind my using
your letter, I and others certainly will appreciate it.
feel free to contact me "off list".

Respectfully,
Old Coyote
Aka Charlie  Webb                [e-mail]



_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:01:47 +0000
From: "Tommy Edge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

> Date:          Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:30 -0500
> From:          [e-mail]
> To:            [e-mail]
> Cc:            [e-mail]
> Subject:       MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft
> Reply-to:      [e-mail]

> darn thing, the striker, has gone soft.  No spark and now has
>
Heat it up till it is a dull red in the shade not bright sun light
then quench in 10 to 20 weight oil then sand it off till part is
shinning then heat to straw color.


Thank You   Tommy Edge

   I make Knives.
http://www.nex.net/tedge/

A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:09:54 -0700
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Looking forward.....

To all:
    The responses to my (and others) inquiries about the first vous were
terrific! I have printed every one and will do my best to enjoy. Sincere
thanks to all.

    I live in Central Oregon and have been contacted by one that is going to
the vous in Idaho sponsored by the Lewis Fork Free Trappers.

    Thanks again  --  can't wait

Gail Carbiener

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:18:10 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit--for women

A quick, easy, & historic outfit for women : The Native & mixed-blood
"country wives" of Canadian fur traders dressed in what Daniel Harmon called
"the Canadian fashion". This consisted of a man's shirt (available from most
sutlers), a petticoat (drawstring cloth skirt, ankle length or a bit
shorter, see _Book of Buckskinning II_ or Beth Gilgun's _Tidings of the 18th
Century_ for sewing instructions), a short gown (woman's jacket--see the
books just mentioned for a pattern, but Book of Buckskinning VII also has a
very nice one, suitable for ca. 1810-ca.1825--but a short gown's optional
for newbies, you can just wear your shirt over your petticoat instead),
leggins (knee-length, make them from cloth & tie up with a garter), and
moccasins. To make it REALLY easy, you can wear knee-length stockings until
you've got the leggins sewn (stockings were carried as trade goods). Take a
blanket & sash for outerwear when it gets cold or rainy.

This outfit is good  from the 1780's through to the mid-1820's, wherever the
Canadians (i.e. HBC, North West Co.) traded. With some adjustments to the
style of the short gown, it may even be good for later on, but my area of
research is 1774-1821, so I can't really say.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:17:56 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scotts in the West

"Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> I just happen to be reading "Company of Adventurers" Vol 1 by Peter
> C. Newman. On page 6-7 it says in part...."Nearly all the great names in
> the HBC's annals grew up in Scotland; not just Sir George Simpson,
> Donald Smith and Sir James Douglas..... others Chief Factor Robert
> Campbell. This is not yet Rocky Mountains..... but fur traders no the less.

Whoa, there! Yes, there were a bunch of Highland Scots in the Canadian fur
trade--some names from the North West Company: Alexander Mackenzie (who led
the first expedition to cross North America by land, in 1793), Simon Fraser
(both Fraser and Mackenzie spent many years operating in & around the Rocky
Mountains, BTW), William McGillivray, Archibald Norman McLeod, John
Macdonald of Garth, and many more.

BUT in my reading of a bunch of pre-1821 journals which focus on the HBC &
NWC, I have yet to find any suggestion of them wearing Highland dress. (But
they were proud Scots, and often gave their men St. Andrews' Day as a
holiday.) Many of these men were rich enough to have their portraits painted
when they were living in Montreal, but none had themselves painted in
_anything_ tartan, let alone wearing kilts or plaids. (The artist who did
most of these fur traders' portraits was William Berczy; check out the book
_Berczy_ by Mary Macaulay Allodi, Peter N. Moogk, & Beate Stock, published
by the National Gallery of Canada, 1991.)

There is one exception to this: John Mackenzie, the mixed-blood son of
Roderick Mackenzie and his Native wife, was painted by Berczy wearing a
red-and-green tartan jacket, white ruffled shirt, black cravat, and a
Highland feather bonnet. FWIW, at the time that the portrait was painted
(1811), John Mackenzie was a lietenant in the Canadian Fencibles. Roderick
Mackenzie also had his portrait painted by Berczy--he is not wearing any
sort of Highland dress or tartan. John Mackenzie was born about 1788, and in
1801 his father took him to Terrebonne (near Montreal), where he spent the
rest of his life (died 1871). So it's unclear how much his clothing in this
portrait would reflect what was worn back in the Northwest.

After about 1825, IIRC, Highland dress suddenly became fashionable in the
U.K. Sir George Simpson's only Scottish fashion accessory, however, was his
newly-acquired piper, Colin Fraser, who was hired to accompany Simpson to
the HBC's western posts in 1828.  From 1835 to 1850, Fraser managed the
HBC's Jasper House, in the Rocky Mountains (now within Jasper National
Park). (This info from _Northwind Dreaming : Fort Chipewyan 1788-1988_ by
Patricia A. McCormack, published by Provincial Museum of Alberta, 1988, ISBN
1-55006-121-6.)

Some other Scots in the fur trade: starting in 1816 (IIRC), the Earl of
Selkirk, Thomas Douglas, arranged for Highland Scots evicted in the
Clearances to be taken by the HBC to settle at the forks of the Red and
Assiniboine Rivers (modern Winnipeg). This project continued for the next
ten years, and some of the men joined the HBC as employees. However, in
Peter Rindisbacher's numerous sketches of life in & around the Selkirk
settlement, not a single Scot in Highland dress is shown. In one sketch,
made to show the various types of Selkirk settlers, he shows Swiss colonists
(of which Rindisbacher was one), Canadians, and a Scotsman. The only article
of Highland dress which can be identified is a close-fitting watch cap with
a tartan trim around the edge (or perhaps a turned-up lining?).

The HBC also employed a large number of men from the Orkney Islands from the
1780's onwards, but these men were _not_ Highland Scots;  the Orkney
tradition, owes a lot more to the Vikings than to the Highlanders.

Someone else mentioned that all the HBC & NWC men listed thus far were all
bourgeois anyhow. This is true. However, the mixed-blood descendants of the
Scottish bourgeois were only rarely bourgeois themselves; the  problem was
that they rarely learned how to read & write, so they couldn't take on the
clerical responsibilities of the job. There was also a lot of prejudice
against them by high-ranking upstarts like George Simpson. Nevertheless,
like their fathers, they may well have taken their Highland heritage
seriously enough to adopt some elements of Highland dress.

So what's my suggestion for Kirk? Tartan trews (trousers) might be a better
choice for a crossover costume than a kilt or plaid, and more practical for
the cold weather of the Rockies & Great Plains. As well, there's a much
better chance of tartan trousers going unrecorded than of more elaborate
Highland dress. Or he could, like John Mackenzie, wear a tartan jacket or
coat, for the same reason.

Despite all this rambling, I don't claim to be an expert in this field--not
by a long shot! I know there was a so-called "Tartan Revival" in England &
Scotland in the mid-1820's, but I have no idea whether that translated into
more folks wearing Highland dress in the fur trade. Perhaps someone else can
fill us in?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred




[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:43:07 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shorthand (aka Scotts in the West)

For those who may not be up on the latest internet shorthand . . .

> FWIW, at the time that the portrait was painted
>(1811), John Mackenzie was a lietenant in the Canadian Fencibles.

FWIW--"For what it's worth."

>After about 1825, IIRC, Highland dress suddenly became fashionable in the
>U.K.

IIRC--"If I remember correctly..."

And, just to throw in another one,

KIT--"Keep in touch"

Cheers,
HBC--"Henry Brodrick Crawford"  :-)

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:49:23 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

J.D. writes:
<< Now I find the darn thing, the striker, has
 gone soft.  No spark and now has some real fine notches from the flint
 in it.  Could some of you iron workers shed some light on this situation
 for me?  Did I do wrong heating it up? >>

J.D.

Visit the website of the Muzzleloading mail list.  We have a number of FAQ's
that deal with metal tempering and hardening.

Http://www.aye.net/~bspen

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:06:42 -0700
From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RESPONSIBILITY FOR ATTIRE OF GUESTS

Greetings from the Musselshell,

Since my involvment with AMM back in the early 80's I have heard complaints
about  clothing.  Who wears what, and who should not wear what.  Especially
when it comes to  guests.

I think it would put an end to the embarrasment and frustration of guests
if it were the responsibility of the sponsor who invites them to be sure
the guest is properly attired.  If the AMM member is familiar enough with
the guest to invite him, then he surely has seen the clothing and
accoutrements the guest has or does not have.

On occasion, when taking a friend to any rendezvous, I have done my best to
outfit the person with what ever I had or could borrow so as to make the
person feel he or she fit in, not only out of consideration for the guest
but as a representation of how I also felt about the guidelines.

The guest should be an EXTENTION of the host, a REPRESENTATION OF THE HOST.

Instead of critisizm being directed towards the guest who basically hasn't
a clue or would have done what ever possible to come in correct garb,
carrying correct accoutremts, the host is the one who should bear the
critisizm for his lack of effort to see that the guidelines are followed.

One way to solve the problem would be for each party to have a donated
collection of clothing and accoutremtnts.  Which could be lent out to
guests.   Most of us who have been involved in rendezvousing for a while
have extra items that we have replaced with new ones.

Also, it is the responsibility of the guest, who is going to attend the
rendezvous, to accept help in being attired without having any bad feeling
about the quality of his own clothing and accoutrements. In other words,
guests, don't get an attitude when you find your accoutremts and clothing
might not be up to parr.

For those of you who stand aside and critisize, well, theres folks like you
everywhere and its unfortunate that your involved in a group like AMM, an
organization I have respect for, for  the quality of the people involved.


As far as prospective members, they should be well on their way to having
what they need to set a pre-1840 camp.

Sponsors and hosts, take the responsibily that is yours.

                      Associate Member.                    Longtrail

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:54:04 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

JD:
I noted in your posting that you were browning a barrel====if you are
getting a barrel that hot to brown you stand a good chance in warping or
deforming the barrel and making hard and soft spots in the barrel----

the part only has to be hot enough to make the drowning solution
work---ie sizzle and brown---don't overheat---you will find you have a
better shooting gun if you cold brown ---get yourself a book called :
firearm blueing and browning ---- written by R.H. Anger--  I thank the
IBSN number is 0-8117-0610-0-  I have a first edition of it but it was
reprinted by stackpole books in harrisburg pa -- the original copyright
is 1936--It has ever browning and blueing solution that you can think
of---I have used several of the recipeis but have settled on a
combination of a couple of them----this is what most people do----

the solution i use only takes a slight amount of heat to activate----but
its ---hard to make it stop working--I think i use too much ferric
cloride-- will make rust grow on rust----GOOD OLD plumb brown gives a
good slick finish and is easy to use with the exception that most people
try to use too much heat----

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:30 -0500 [e-mail] writes:
>I wonder if this has happened to anyone.  I had a striker that worked
>well enough. It was misplaced and was not used for a year or so.  I
>threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I was
>browning a pistol barrel).  Now I find the darn thing, the striker,
>has
>gone soft.  No spark and now has some real fine notches from the flint
>in it.  Could some of you iron workers shed some light on this
>situation
>for me?  Did I do wrong heating it up?
>I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to
>have
>made into a firepit hanger or something.
>Thanks for your input and time.
>J.D.Stoddard
>(working on losing his green)
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:59:00 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chinook

Ron:

Greatings from the Columbia. I am not able to answer your question but I think
I can put you on to the guy that can. You were probably talking to or listening
to William A. Collins, Jr. Bill is the Brigade clerk for the Northwest Brigade,
AMM and he knows and can speak Chinook jargon very well. I was the guy in the
leanto just up hill from Bill, with the gords and copper corn boilers for sale.
Anyway I'm sure Bill wouldn't mind jawing with you if you'd care to write. His
address is:

William A. Collins, Jr.
10801 Ogle Rd. NE
Poulsbo, WA. 98370

Hope thtis gets you started. I remain...
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Ron wrote:

> Klahowya sihks!
>
> I'm located in SE Idaho. I was wondering how extensively the Chinook jargon
> was used during the fur trade. Did trappers in the mid 1830's speak some of
> the jargon in the area around Ft. Hall? Or just around the coast?
>
> I met a gentlemen speaking jargon up at Pierre's hole camp on the fourth
> ( I was the flatlander with the beard..hehehe).
>
> I'm learning to sign, and some Shoshone, but would appreciate any input on
> this.
>
> By the way I found an interesting site on the jargon:
> <http://www.geocities.com/~tenaswawa/twtoc.htm>
>
> YMOS
> Ron
>
> <http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/rendezvous.html>
> Email <[e-mail]>
>
>      \|/
>      / \
>    /     \
>  /    0   \ Lonewolf

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:40:38 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

iRON TOUNG CAN EXPOUND ON THE ART OF TEMPERING==
i can only give you a way of how i would do it---
heat to a straw color hold for about 2 or 3 min to insure that the heat
is constant thru the piece--submerge in 10 weight oil----I use bear
grease---most of my strikers I make out of old files---i grind the edge
smooth and leave the serrations on to hold the striker with-+++++warning
:====dont get the edge hot when grinding take your time.  you will find
it has the proper temper for a good striker without having to temper--

NOTE:  If you use water to quinch it will make the striker too hard and
brittal---and you will have to draw it to keep it from breaking---

to case a frizzen i normally hold the frizzen in a vise by the attachment
part with the strikeing side up-but first I dip the frizzen in 10 weight
oil , or sperm oil, or bear grease, i then hold the frizzen by the
attachment end and whirl it around in the casonite---i then place it in
the vise with the frisen striker side up and put as much casenite on the
frizzen as i can get on it.  i take my torch and heat to a straw color---
i place a bucket of water under the frizzen very close to the vise so
that when i reliese the vise it will fall into the water.  should be no
more than 12 to 18 inches away-  heat to a straw color and hold for at
least 2 to 4 min---keeping the heat on the frizzen i reliece the vise and
let the frizzen fall into the water---It will make a sound like a gun
going off---a large crack-  i then draw the frizzen because it will be
extremely hard and brittal---dont draw it too much or you will defeat the
case hardening---I use comercial casenite---usto mix up my own stuff but
now do it the easy way---can buy from most gun suppliers--- brownelle or
even dixie---I have a can that i have been using for anout 8 or 10
years---

you can do the same to the striker if you cannot get it to temper
correctly and it will work---

remember water makes it brittal and you will have to draw it so it wont
break like glass-------

IRON TOUNG COME ON LINE AND TELL HIM HOW  A SMITH WOULD DO THE
TEMPERING-- I AM NOT A SMITTY OR A FORGE PERSON ---THIS TAKES A LOT OF
TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE----i CAN CASE A PART OR TEMPER BUT IT'S USALLY A
TRIAL OR ERROR THING FOR ME--- EVEN THOUGH I DO HAVE A HEAT TREAT FURNICE
AND USE IT MOST OF THE TIME WITH MY GUN PARTS THAT I MAKE--- have made a
many a mainspring and had them snap the first time i put tension on them
because of them bring too hard and brittal or having a mark in the metal
the wrong way--- spend several hrs making one and break it will kina make
you say funny words to the walls of the shop and to everything else that
is in there---

TEMPERING AND HEAT TREATING IS A SCIENCE THAT I AM NOT A EXPERT IN BUT
HAVE BEEN FORCED TO DABBLE IN A LOT SO ----I KNOW THERE IS A BUNCH ON THE
LIST THAT CAN HELP YOU OUT IF THIS PALABER DOESNT----

JUST POST YOUR QUESTIONS AND SOMEONE OUT THERE HAS THE
EXPERTIESE---PROBABLY MORE THAN ME-----



      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:24:14 -0600 (CST) [e-mail] (Henry B.
Crawford) writes:
>>I had a striker that worked
>>well enough.  I
>>threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I
>was
>>browning a pistol barrel).  Now I find the darn thing, the striker,
>has
>>gone soft.  Did I do wrong heating it up?
>>I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to
>have
>>made into a firepit hanger or something.
>
>All isn't lost.  It just has to be retempered.  Any smithy could do it
>for
>you.  I think it has something to do with how it's quenched.  I have
>one
>that was a "C" shape and I wanted to close off one of the ends to hold
>a
>thong, so I had a smith do it.  After it was closed he had to reharden
>it.
>I seem to remember him quenching it in oil, but there may have been
>another
>step there somewhere.
>
>Good luck.  No need to retire it as a pot hook yet.
>
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:09:00 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

thakns for the good input i knew there was some good knife makers out
ther that would help him out---i gave him a method of casehardening---it
might not be good but it' the way i do it---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:01:47 +0000 "Tommy Edge" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>> Date:          Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:30 -0500
>> From:          [e-mail]
>> To:            [e-mail]
>> Cc:            [e-mail]
>> Subject:       MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft
>> Reply-to:      [e-mail]
>
>> darn thing, the striker, has gone soft.  No spark and now has
>>
>Heat it up till it is a dull red in the shade not bright sun light
>then quench in 10 to 20 weight oil then sand it off till part is
>shinning then heat to straw color.
>
>
>Thank You   Tommy Edge
>
>   I make Knives.
>http://www.nex.net/tedge/
>
>A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
>
>

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Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:26:20 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit

Gail,Medicine Bear and Kirk,  As with the note I sent to Kirk, the most
important thing you can take to your first rondy is a good attitude.  With
that, you will get advised, loaned clothing if necessary, allowed to shoot
others' guns, fed, invited to camp-fires and filled with tall tales of
derring-do.  Your intent to learn is as important as your stuff being period
correct.  With regard to 'non-period' items, most rendezvous' will allow them
as long as they are kept totally concealed.  And, although most of the AMM
guys are as correct as it gets, I do know those that have had mocs made over
pac-boot linings for use in the snow, and more than one that sleeps on a
therma-rest inside their bedroll. They may use the claim that its for medical
reasons, but I think not.  Hope this helps some.  PJ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:42:06 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan pants

- --------------84B510C3FE29C1FA7011F4CD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Red Hawk:

Couldn't agree more with your lines on expense. I will venture to say that I think
what makes Yellow Chrome Tanned Buckskin undesirable as an inexpensive substitute
for brain tan is its color and its physical characteristics. You have come up with
a good way to take care of the color and I would like to suggest a way to make it
physically a better garment material.

The main problem with this leather for garments is that the hair side or scarf
skin is allowed to remain on during and after the tanning process. What gives
brain tan its warmth and wearability is the lack of this scarf skin. The leather
can breath and does not stretch out of shape once you have stretched or sized it
just before cutting and sewing. What needs to be done with chrome tanned leather
is to take the scarf skin off!

My friend Tom Crooks worked out a system for doing this using a power sander and
the resultant product is "almost like brain tan". I am going to visit him this
weekend and I will refresh my memory on the particulars of his technique and pass
it on to those that wish to use it.

I still hold with my original thoughts in that it is better to wait until the real
thing is acquired but I acknowledge that some folks will not be able to afford
brain tan or will not take the effort to make their own. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> I concur that a well done brain tan is the best for making pants, etc.
> However, it is VERY expensive if you are not tanning it yourself.  I use it in
> my quillwork but I have found a good alternative for my native american
> dresses.  I purchase pure white deer hides and make the garment with the rough
> side out.  After that I soak it in a solution of tea and coffee.  This gives
> it the color of a very tan creamy brain tan.  The buckskin is, also, very
> soft. Actually  it as soft as some of the  poorly done brain tan that I have
> felt.  I can do a dress for around $100.  Pants would probably run less.  Most
> folks comment on how pretty the brain tan dress looks.
>
> Red Hawk
>
> [e-mail]



- --------------84B510C3FE29C1FA7011F4CD
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Red Hawk:

<P>Couldn't agree more with your lines on expense. I will venture to say
that I think what makes Yellow Chrome Tanned Buckskin undesirable as an
inexpensive substitute for brain tan is its color and its physical characteristics.
You have come up with a good way to take care of the color and I would
like to suggest a way to make it physically a better garment material.

<P>The main problem with this leather for garments is that the hair side
or scarf skin is allowed to remain on during and after the tanning process.
What gives brain tan its warmth and wearability is the lack of this scarf
skin. The leather can breath and does not stretch out of shape once you
have stretched or sized it just before cutting and sewing. <B>What needs
to be done with chrome tanned leather is to take the scarf skin off!</B>

<P>My friend Tom Crooks worked out a system for doing this using a power
sander and the resultant product is "almost like brain tan". I am going
to visit him this weekend and I will refresh my memory on the particulars
of his technique and pass it on to those that wish to use it.

<P>I still hold with my original thoughts in that it is better to wait
until the real thing is acquired but I acknowledge that some folks will
not be able to afford brain tan or will not take the effort to make their
own. I remain....

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I concur that a well done brain tan is the best for
making pants, etc.
<BR>However, it is VERY expensive if you are not tanning it yourself.
I use it in
<BR>my quillwork but I have found a good alternative for my native american
<BR>dresses.  I purchase pure white deer hides and make the garment
with the rough
<BR>side out.  After that I soak it in a solution of tea and coffee.
This gives
<BR>it the color of a very tan creamy brain tan.  The buckskin is,
also, very
<BR>soft. Actually  it as soft as some of the  poorly done brain
tan that I have
<BR>felt.  I can do a dress for around $100.  Pants would probably
run less.  Most
<BR>folks comment on how pretty the brain tan dress looks.

<P>Red Hawk

<P>[e-mail]</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

- --------------84B510C3FE29C1FA7011F4CD--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:06:32 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looking forward.....

Gail:

Glad to hear that you got hooked up with someone in your neighborhood to mentor
with. Have fun and let use know how it went. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Gail Carbiener wrote:

> To all:
>     The responses to my (and others) inquiries about the first vous were
> terrific! I have printed every one and will do my best to enjoy. Sincere
> thanks to all.
>
>     I live in Central Oregon and have been contacted by one that is going to
> the vous in Idaho sponsored by the Lewis Fork Free Trappers.
>
>     Thanks again  --  can't wait
>
> Gail Carbiener

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:29:02 -0400
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: brain tan pants

Mr. Crooks wrote an article on just that in the April97 issue of
Muzzleblasts.=20
=20
Kirk Mill

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    Roger Lahti [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Thursday, July 30, 1998 1:42 PM
    To:    [e-mail]
    Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: brain tan pants


    My friend Tom Crooks worked out a system for doing this using a
power sander and the resultant product is "almost like brain tan". I am
going to visit him this weekend and I will refresh my memory on the
particulars of his technique and pass it on to those that wish to use =
it.=20

    YMOS=20
    Capt. Lahti'=20

    [e-mail] wrote:=20

        I concur that a well done brain tan is the best for making
pants, etc.=20
        However, it is VERY expensive if you are not tanning it
yourself.=A0 I use it in=20
        my quillwork but I have found a good alternative for my
native american=20
        dresses.=A0 I purchase pure white deer hides and make the
garment with the rough=20
        side out.=A0 After that I soak it in a solution of tea and
coffee.=A0 This gives=20
        it the color of a very tan creamy brain tan.=A0 The buckskin
is, also, very=20
        soft. Actually=A0 it as soft as some of the=A0 poorly done brain
tan that I have=20
        felt.=A0 I can do a dress for around $100.=A0 Pants would
probably run less.=A0 Most=20
        folks comment on how pretty the brain tan dress looks.=20

        Red Hawk=20

        [e-mail]

    =A0

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:25:19 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants

Well, it looks like the votes are in.  The leggings will stay leggings, at
least for now.  I don't wear breechclouts because I never had one that was
comfortable enough.  That's why I contemplated stitching a seat and front
onto the leggings and make pants.  The guy who made them and gave them to
me thought it was a good idea if that would allow me to get some use out of
them.  I failed to mention that my friend who made them IS Lakota
(Sihasapa) so they are indeed authentic Lakota leggings.  His wife is
Oglalla.  Did I mention that he also gave me a Lakota war shirt?  I have no
plans to alter it, because it fits already.  He and I are about the same
build, and he made it for himself some years ago.

He is altering a pair of cav pants into leggings (I love the irony) because
he likes the pockets.  Apparently, historically, this was done for the
(post CW) Indian Wars period, but does anyone know if they did it during
the Dragoon period?  Logic says yes, but it's nice to have documentation.

TIA,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #112
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