concerning this issue of whether loading blocks were used in the fur trade days. I refer you to the Oct issue of American Hunter Magazine, 1975. Article entitled: "A Real Hunters Rifle." This particular rifle with hunting pouch and powder horn and all accoutrements is owned by a collector in Virginia. Attached to the strap of the bag in the accompanying photo is an original loading block that is obviously very old. It is a single piece of hardwood with 4 bullet sized holes bored into it in a single line. In the holes are patched round balls. Old patches and old oxidized lead balls. The pouch and horn, rifle and accoutrements all date from before 1842. The hunter died of old age in 1842. Excellent article with nice color photos of the powder horn with a repair on it, and all of the contents of the hunting pouch along with the rifle. The family kept the gun until the 1970s when it was sold to the collector who allowed it to be photographed for the magazine. There is no reason to doubt the authenticity of the articles because the whole article was put together before people sat around and nit picked such subjects. At least after close axamination of the photos I find them to be genuine in my humble opinion. Mike B
Wynn Ormond <oci@pcu.net> wrote:
> Thanks for your answer! I suspected as much even though having no
> set charges readly available seems counter intuitive given that they
> seem to have had loading blocks. BTW, an pouch horn is just similar
> to a powder horn but is flat and placed inside the huniting bag
> instead worn outside.
>
> Two Feathers
I will stand by my answer then that most of the art work shows a trapper
with a horn on the outside of the pouch.
I would like to see evidence of loading blocks. Other than carrying a few
rounds in their mouth I have not seen anything of that like either.
Wynn Ormond
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<P>concerning this issue of whether loading blocks were used in the fur trade days. I refer you to the Oct issue of American Hunter Magazine, 1975. Article entitled: "A Real Hunters Rifle." This particular rifle with hunting pouch and powder horn and all accoutrements is owned by a collector in Virginia. Attached to the strap of the bag in the accompanying photo is an original loading block that is obviously very old. It is a single piece of hardwood with 4 bullet sized holes bored into it in a single line. In the holes are patched round balls. Old patches and old oxidized lead balls. The pouch and horn, rifle and accoutrements all date from before 1842. The hunter died of old age in 1842. Excellent article with nice color photos of the powder horn with a repair on it, and all of the contents of the hunting pouch along with the rifle. The family kept the gun until the 1970s when it was sold to the collector who allowed it to be photographed for the magazine. There is no reason to doubt the authenticity of the articles because the whole article was put together before people sat around and nit picked such subjects. At least after close axamination of the photos I find them to be genuine in my humble opinion. Mike B
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>> Thanks for your answer! I suspected as much even though having no<BR>> set charges readly available seems counter intuitive given that they<BR>> seem to have had loading blocks. BTW, an pouch horn is just similar<BR>> to a powder horn but is flat and placed inside the huniting bag<BR>> instead worn outside.<BR>><BR>> Two Feathers<BR><BR>I will stand by my answer then that most of the art work shows a trapper<BR>with a horn on the outside of the pouch.<BR><BR>I would like to see evidence of loading blocks. Other than carrying a few<BR>rounds in their mouth I have not seen anything of that like either.<BR><BR>Wynn Ormond<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:39:38 -0700
From: "sunmac" <sunmac@bigfoot.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: In Search Of . . . .
My wife has a question for the group:
Where can she find a source of period beading patterns?
Info on books, web-sites or anything would help a lot.
Oh, yeah, she says she prefers the loom, but can free-hand stitch if
necessary.
Any help would really be appreciated. This is the first I've been able to
get her in to any mountain man activity.
Thanks a lot.
Mac
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vegetarian - ancient word meaning lousy hunter
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:05:40 -0700
From: "Gene Hickman" <ghickman9@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In Search Of . . . .
What period and in what location? You know that loom beading and the large
solid types of beadwork, that you may be thinking of, don't really appear
until the reservation period and later. There is some beautiful beadwork
around for various tribes, and in most time periods and places, but again
probably not what you may be thinking and not what is normally seen at
rendezvous.
When I did beadwork. I liked to look at museum or extant pieces for the time
and place I was interested in. Then I'd duplicate that pattern or item.
YMOS
Bead Shooter
From: "sunmac" <sunmac@bigfoot.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: In Search Of . . . .
> My wife has a question for the group:
>
> Where can she find a source of period beading patterns?
>
> Info on books, web-sites or anything would help a lot.
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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:44:39 -0700
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In Search Of . . . .
Gene is right. And thanks to today's technology there is an amazing amount of
information on historical materials that is available on line. One of the most
significant in this context is the on line collection resource of the American
Museum of Natural History. They have over 50,000 North American Indian objects
pictured and briefly described on line. You can search by tribe or by object
type. Like all museums, there are numerous tribal mis-attributions, but unlike
many other museums, the AMNH is very receptive to input from users, and they
have amended a number of their initial designations. And, like most museums,
the vast najority of the collection is material that was made after 1870. Even
still, the AMNH has a significant number of pre-1850 pieces if you can
recognize them.
Do this: go to www.amnh.org
- --click on "research" at the top of the first page
- --click on "anthropology" at the right side of the next page
- --under "Research online" on the right side of the next page, click on
"collections database"
- --click on "North American Eithographic Collection" on the next page (the
beaded doll thumbnail, can't miss it)
Have fun.
Allen Chronister
Gene Hickman wrote:
> What period and in what location? You know that loom beading and the large
> solid types of beadwork, that you may be thinking of, don't really appear
> until the reservation period and later. There is some beautiful beadwork
> around for various tribes, and in most time periods and places, but again
> probably not what you may be thinking and not what is normally seen at
> rendezvous.
>
> When I did beadwork. I liked to look at museum or extant pieces for the time
> and place I was interested in. Then I'd duplicate that pattern or item.
>
> YMOS
> Bead Shooter
>
> From: "sunmac" <sunmac@bigfoot.com>
> Subject: MtMan-List: In Search Of . . . .
>
> > My wife has a question for the group:
> >
> > Where can she find a source of period beading patterns?
> >
> > Info on books, web-sites or anything would help a lot.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:09:01 -0700 (MST)
From: <beaverboy@sofast.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyotes
Richard,
You really can't compare phrases like, "they were here first?" to
patriotic or religious phrases like "In God we trust". "They were here
first" is only one of many catch phrases used by environmentalist. Don't
get me wrong, I'm not inferring that you are a environmentalist. I love
environmentalist anyway, they're entertainig.
I've had lots of talks with Mr. Coyote and he usually gets the point.
And should you really compare coyote control to illegal immigrants? How
very PI.
BB
> In a message dated 12/4/02 9:36:45 PM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
>
> << That old worn out phrase, ΓÇ£they were here before usΓÇ¥ is just
> that, worn out.
> I guess I like old worn out phrases like "in God we trust". I'm not so
> sure they are worn out.
>
> WeΓÇÖre here now and Mr. Coyote had better behave himself and keep a
> low profile or hunters and trappers will make him behave. >>
> Explain that to the coyotes and then remember the explanation when you
> visit cities that are over-run with illegal immigrants.
>
> Most sincerely
> Richard James
>
>
> ----------------------
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:36:07 -0600
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re-smoking hides
Any you folks had any luck re-smoking brain tan once it's made into
clothing?
>> Yep ! The leggins I had on at The National are over 10 yrs. old and have
been washed so many times that I felt I had washed too much of smoke out of
them. So I resmoked them.
I just turned them wrong side out and pinned an old blue jean leg to each
of them. Then I hung the leggin from a tree limb and placed the blue jean
leg over the end of a stove pipe that had a small wood stove on the other
end with a very low burning smoky fire going in it. I kept adding punky
wood to it till I got the smoke put back in them that I wanted.
Pendleton
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:25:05 -0600
From: Windwalker <windwalker@fastmail.fm>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyotes
On Thursday 05 December 2002 19:09, beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:
> Richard,
> You really can't compare phrases like, "they were here first?" to
> patriotic or religious phrases like "In God we trust". "They were here
> first" is only one of many catch phrases used by environmentalist. Don'=
t
> get me wrong, I'm not inferring that you are a environmentalist. I love
> environmentalist anyway, they're entertainig.
> I've had lots of talks with Mr. Coyote and he usually gets the point=
=2E
> And should you really compare coyote control to illegal immigrants? How
> very PI.
> BB
>
> > In a message dated 12/4/02 9:36:45 PM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
> >
> > << That old worn out phrase, =E2=80=9Cthey were here before us=E2=80=9D=
is just
> > that, worn out.
> > I guess I like old worn out phrases like "in God we trust". I'm not =
so
> > sure they are worn out.
> >
> > We=E2=80=99re here now and Mr. Coyote had better behave himself and k=
eep a
> > low profile or hunters and trappers will make him behave. >>
> > Explain that to the coyotes and then remember the explanation when yo=
u
> > visit cities that are over-run with illegal immigrants.
> >
> > Most sincerely
> > Richard James
First how about using American fonts in your emails..
In God We trust might be worn out for some.... not all....
And as for illegal,s in U.S.... run em all out... and close the borders..
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:06:43 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyotes
In a message dated 12/5/02 6:12:09 PM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
<< You really can't compare phrases like, "they were here first?" to
patriotic or religious phrases like "In God we trust". "They were here
first" is only one of many catch phrases >>
Now then - who is the one qualified to make these definitions?
RJames
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:13:09 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re-smoking hides
In a message dated 12/5/02 6:49:46 PM, yrrw@airmail.net writes:
<< Any you folks had any luck re-smoking brain tan once it's made into
clothing?
>> Yep ! The leggins I had on at The National are over 10 yrs. old and have
been washed so many times that I felt I had washed too much of smoke out of
them. So I resmoked them. >>
A little different slant on this but substantiating . . . . An old Shoshone
lady once told me of how amazed she was to visit some friends. During the
visit she went into the kitchen - which had all the doors closed up tight.
The reason: members of the family had just finished a big batch of buckskin
gloves, THEN decided to smoke them. The smoke was generated in the family
cook stove and the gloves were hung above it in appropriate fashion to catch
the smoke on and after-the-fact basis. Until they were done, the family just
visited in the living room. I have smoked meat in the top of my tipi before
and from my recollections of "after", I bet that kitchen smelled great for
years after.
Richard James
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:15:00 EST
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyotes
- --part1_146.450fa3b.2b219a64_boundary
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Beaverboy
I agree with some of what you said Coyotes are one of the most challenging to
trap. As a rule is the one set that one is most likely to catch one of the
neighbors dogs in too. The Native Americans held them in high regard that is
why they had so many legends about Coyote. The Shoshonis claim they are the
<BR>I agree with some of what you said Coyotes are one of the most challenging to trap. As a rule is the one set that one is most likely to catch one of the neighbors dogs in too. The Native Americans held them in high regard that is why they had so many legends about Coyote. The Shoshonis claim they are the one animal that reflects man.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:18:55 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyotes
In a message dated 12/5/02 7:18:21 PM, windwalker@fastmail.fm writes:
<< First how about using American fonts in your emails..
In God We trust might be worn out for some.... not all....
And as for illegal,s in U.S.... run em all out... and close the borders..
>>
Fonts?? What's wrong with Times? What is American? - petroglyphs?
Followed by your statements that I completely endorse. As far as recent
criticisms I have received about being other than politically correct - I
lived the far greater part of my life before that trite phrase was coined and
I have not intentions to try and subscribe to it. I gather from your
statement that neither have you. Correct??
Richard James
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:35:21 -0600
From: Windwalker <windwalker@fastmail.fm>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyotes
On Friday 06 December 2002 00:18, SWzypher@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 12/5/02 7:18:21 PM, windwalker@fastmail.fm writes:
>
> << First how about using American fonts in your emails..
>
>
> In God We trust might be worn out for some.... not all....
>
> And as for illegal,s in U.S.... run em all out... and close the borders=
=2E.
>
>
>
>
> Fonts?? What's wrong with Times? What is American? - petroglyphs?
>
> Followed by your statements that I completely endorse. As far as recen=
t
> criticisms I have received about being other than politically correct =
- - I
> lived the far greater part of my life before that trite phrase was coin=
ed
> and I have not intentions to try and subscribe to it. I gather from yo=
ur
> statement that neither have you. Correct??
>
> Richard James
>
As a full blood Native American all I will say is remember custer...
and As for American....imports dont count
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 02:23:42 EST
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyotes
- --part1_a.29740247.2b21aa7e_boundary
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Sorry about this, that last post got away from me before I was done with it.
Beaverboy
I agree with some of what you said Coyotes are one of the most challenging to
trap. And as a rule is the one set that one is most likely to catch one of
the neighbors dogs in too. The Native Americans held them in high regard that
is why they had so many legends about Coyote. The Shoshonis claim they are
the one animal that most reflects man.
you said:
The coyote can be solitary but prefers to hunt in groups as he can
take much larger game this way. They are a very sociable animal and have a
language in howls and barks <I say it seem man likes to hunt that way too>
they hunt in groups mostly at night under the cover of darkness (like most
sinister characters) <When I call them in it is at night and as a rule always
with one other person setting back to back so they can not come in from
behind.> (like most sinister characters)
They hunt the young of many animals, how noble! < DA! what's the best eaten
and easy to catch and is the game of choice of all predators>
They will kill for the fun of it and I don't mean just sheep either. <What
do you hunt and trap for? I do it mostly for the fun of it>
The one place I do differ from you is I do have sympathy for them and think
they get blamed for more then they actually do. From what I know of them the
young are still with their mother at this time of year learning to hunt and
as a rule don't get run off until about the end of this month That's what
I've seen around here any way.
The coyote pays it's part in the food change and helps to keep mother nature
in balance. So long as there number stay in balance with there food source.
Here in Idaho back in 1970 some of you my remember hearing of the game of
bunny base ball being played in the Arco Desert and Mud Lakes area. A big
part of the reason for the framers being over run by rabbits was the fact the
most of all the coyotes that kept them in check had been killed off, by Sheep
men and hunters and trappers.
So without them we can have troubles too. I respect them and as rule will not
hunt them until they become a problem by being to plentiful.
I have had them as pets and found that coyote will always be coyote and are a
hard animal to tame and keep for long.
See ya down the trail
Crazy Cyot
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2> Sorry about this, that last post got away from me before I was done with it.
<BR>Beaverboy
<BR>I agree with some of what you said Coyotes are one of the most challenging to trap. And as a rule is the one set that one is most likely to catch one of the neighbors dogs in too. The Native Americans held them in high regard that is why they had so many legends about Coyote. The Shoshonis claim they are the one animal that most reflects man.
<BR>you said:
<BR>The coyote can be solitary but prefers to hunt in groups as he can
<BR>take much larger game this way. They are a very sociable animal and have a
<BR>language in howls and barks <I say it seem man likes to hunt that way too>
<BR> they hunt in groups mostly at night under the cover of darkness (like most sinister characters) <When I call them in it is at night and as a rule always with one other person setting back to back so they can not come in from behind.> (like most sinister characters)
<BR>They hunt the young of many animals, how noble! < DA! what's the best eaten and easy to catch and is the game of choice of all predators>
<BR>They will kill for the fun of it and I don't mean just sheep either. <What do you hunt and trap for? I do it mostly for the fun of it></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The one place I do differ from you is I do have sympathy for them and think they get blamed for more then they actually do.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">From what I know of them the young are still with their mother at this time of year learning to hunt and as a rule don't get run off until about the end of this month That's what I've seen around here any way.
<BR>
<BR>The coyote pays it's part in the food change and helps to keep mother nature in balance. So long as there number stay in balance with there food source. Here in Idaho back in 1970 some of you my remember hearing of the game of bunny base ball being played in the Arco Desert and Mud Lakes area. A big part of the reason for the framers being over run by rabbits was the fact the most of all the coyotes that kept them in check had been killed off, by Sheep men and hunters and trappers.
<BR>So without them we can have troubles too. I respect them and as rule will not hunt them until they become a problem by being to plentiful.
<BR>I have had them as pets and found that coyote will always be coyote and are a hard animal to tame and keep for long.
<BR>See ya down the trail
<BR>Crazy Cyot
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:32:31 -0500 (EST)
From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyotes
Hello to all ,I don't often post (mostly lurk) here
but I should like to throw in my two cents worth on this one! First I
don't see any conflict with being a Hunter,Trapper and Environmentalist
I am all three,(yes I even once hugged a tree!) if we don't protect
Mother Earth and her children there'll be no place to hunt and nothing
to trap! I enjoy the Hunt the Kill and finally the good eating that is
the reward! The Food Chain is a obvious concept and we are clearly on
top (well mostly anyway,maybe with the exception of a Grizzly or two...)
To abuse that natural cycle is to court trouble. And as for
illegal immigration,while it's obviously a problem
that needs be dealt with you can hardly blame people for wanting to come
to the best dang country in the the world!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nuff said!!!
Thank you for your indulgence,
Happy Holidays,
M.A.Smith Esq.
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:22:43 -0800
From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@paccd.cc.ca.us>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In Search Of . . . .
Try:
http://www.nativetech.org/
This site has some good general information on beadwork though it
is primarily focused on Eastern woodland tribes. However, it does
have an area that lists various books on Indian beadwork that are
available on-line and elsewhere.
Two Feathers
> My wife has a question for the group:
>
> Where can she find a source of period beading patterns?
>
> Info on books, web-sites or anything would help a lot.
>
> Oh, yeah, she says she prefers the loom, but can free-hand stitch if
> necessary.
>
> Any help would really be appreciated. This is the first I've been able to
> get her in to any mountain man activity.
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Mac
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Vegetarian - ancient word meaning lousy hunter
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:06:01 -0800
From: "De Santis, Nick" <nick.de.santis@intel.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: 2nd amendment?
To the list and anyone who will read this:
Not often do I really give a damn about politics and the general nuisance of
the process. However, this is really wrong. Please read the link below.
If, deep down, you care about your rights as a free man or women, this
should scare you at the least. For me, it is one step to far. I am just
angry that folks who cannot be content to just mind there own space are
backing me into a corner.
I am no revolutionary, but that does not mean we cannot push back. I intend
to start shoving.
Yours,
Nick De Santis ( Travler)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,72371,00.html
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