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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:15:49 -0600
From: "Wynn Ormond" <oci@pcu.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ribbon
I know that there are several referances to ribbon being used as decoration
by the RMFT paticularly the Canadians and half breeds. Does anyone know
what type ribbon available today most closely resembles what was available
then? Also any guesses as to how it was used. I can not find the
referances but I recall a quote by N Whitman I think that left me with the
impression that they flowed or streamed along instead of being sewed on.
Any input?
WY
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:57:40 -0500
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
>In again reading Zenas Leonard's Narrative I encountered a passage near
>the end of his work that gave me pause.
He speaks of the Crow celebrating a victory over the Blackfeet having their
"heads delightfully ornamented with magpie and pheasant tails"
My Websters 1828 carries a listing for pheasant; definition essentially the
same as today.
All of the history of pheasant that I can find; mentions attempts were made
to introduce pheasant as early as 1733 none of which were successful until
a couple dozen were released in Oregon in the 1880's, references to
stocking in mountain and plains states are post-1900.
Were pheasant feathers being traded out of the Orient with tea? Does
anyone remember any on trade lists?
Where did the Crow get pheasant feathers; and if there weren't any
pheasants why were they mentioned in Websters? How did Zenas Leonard
recognize them as such if they weren't successfully introduced until nearly
50 years after first publication of his book and almost 30 years after he
died?
Does anyone have an answer to this apparent anomaly?
John...
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 01:30:49 -0600
From: "Gene Hickman" <ghickman9@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ribbon
Silk ribbon was used then and is still available. Try the Wooded Hamlet
Designs web site: http://www.woodedhamlet.com/
Bead Shooter
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Wynn Ormond" <oci@pcu.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:15 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Ribbon
> I know that there are several referances to ribbon being used as
decoration
> by the RMFT paticularly the Canadians and half breeds. Does anyone know
> what type ribbon available today most closely resembles what was available
> then? Also any guesses as to how it was used. I can not find the
> referances but I recall a quote by N Whitman I think that left me with the
> impression that they flowed or streamed along instead of being sewed on.
> Any input?
> WY
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 01:40:51 -0600
From: "Gene Hickman" <ghickman9@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
Pheasant was a common "generic" term for most of the grouse. Lewis & Clark
call both sage and sharp-tailed grouse a pheasant. They just beleived it was
another kind of pheasant. I doubt that they thought it was a ring neck
pheasant. Both of these grouse would be possibilities for your pheasant
feathers. Probably sage grouse as they have much longer tail feathers than
the sharp-tailed grouse.
Bead Shooter
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <kramer@kramerize.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:57 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
>
> >In again reading Zenas Leonard's Narrative I encountered a passage near
> >the end of his work that gave me pause.
>
> He speaks of the Crow celebrating a victory over the Blackfeet having
their
> "heads delightfully ornamented with magpie and pheasant tails"
>
> My Websters 1828 carries a listing for pheasant; definition essentially
the
> same as today.
>
> All of the history of pheasant that I can find; mentions attempts were
made
> to introduce pheasant as early as 1733 none of which were successful until
> a couple dozen were released in Oregon in the 1880's, references to
> stocking in mountain and plains states are post-1900.
>
> Were pheasant feathers being traded out of the Orient with tea? Does
> anyone remember any on trade lists?
>
> Where did the Crow get pheasant feathers; and if there weren't any
> pheasants why were they mentioned in Websters? How did Zenas Leonard
> recognize them as such if they weren't successfully introduced until
nearly
> 50 years after first publication of his book and almost 30 years after he
> died?
>
> Does anyone have an answer to this apparent anomaly?
>
> John...
>
>
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:03:22 -0400
From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ribbon
Ribbon was used as trade goods.... gee gaws for the squaws... From
what I have read, it was silk ribbon, about one inch wide and RED was
the preferred color. It was used to decorate the lodges, on dresses,
in the hair, etc...
Regards,
Ad Miller
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:29:41 EDT
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ribbon
- --part1_1c3.29da4d.2adeedf5_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 10/16/2002 12:30:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ghickman9@attbi.com writes:
> Silk ribbon was used then and is still available
IIRC the term for the type of silk ribbon used then, and still available
today, is grosgrain (pronounced grow-grain), which has a line-like texture to
it.
Barney
- --part1_1c3.29da4d.2adeedf5_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 10/16/2002 12:30:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ghickman9@attbi.com writes:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Silk ribbon was used then and is still available</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000080" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>IIRC the term for the type of silk ribbon used then, and still available today, is grosgrain (pronounced grow-grain), which has a line-like texture to it. <BR>
<BR>
Barney</B></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_1c3.29da4d.2adeedf5_boundary--
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:38:49 -0500
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
Gene,
If the only reference was Leonard I might buy the "generic" concept.
My Websters 1828 defines as follows:
GROUSE, n. grous. A heath-cock or cock of the wood, a fowl of the genus
Tetrao. The name is given to several species,forming a particular division
of the genus; such as the black game,the red game, the ptarmigan, the
ruffed grouse, &c.
PHEASANT, n. phez'ant. [L. phasianus.] A fowl of the genus Phasianus, of
beautiful plumage, and its flesh delicate food.
Most of The Corps of Discovery observations were more precise than
assigning one name to markedly differing specie. I haven't read those
journals in many years, maybe I should once more?
I think this remains an open question.
John...
At 02:40 AM 10/16/02, you wrote:
>Pheasant was a common "generic" term for most of the grouse. Lewis & Clark
>call both sage and sharp-tailed grouse a pheasant. They just beleived it was
>another kind of pheasant. I doubt that they thought it was a ring neck
>pheasant. Both of these grouse would be possibilities for your pheasant
>feathers. Probably sage grouse as they have much longer tail feathers than
>the sharp-tailed grouse.
>
>Bead Shooter
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Kramer" <kramer@kramerize.com>
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:57 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
>
>
> >
> > >In again reading Zenas Leonard's Narrative I encountered a passage near
> > >the end of his work that gave me pause.
> >
> > He speaks of the Crow celebrating a victory over the Blackfeet having
>their
> > "heads delightfully ornamented with magpie and pheasant tails"
> >
> > My Websters 1828 carries a listing for pheasant; definition essentially
>the
> > same as today.
> >
> > All of the history of pheasant that I can find; mentions attempts were
>made
> > to introduce pheasant as early as 1733 none of which were successful until
> > a couple dozen were released in Oregon in the 1880's, references to
> > stocking in mountain and plains states are post-1900.
> >
> > Were pheasant feathers being traded out of the Orient with tea? Does
> > anyone remember any on trade lists?
> >
> > Where did the Crow get pheasant feathers; and if there weren't any
> > pheasants why were they mentioned in Websters? How did Zenas Leonard
> > recognize them as such if they weren't successfully introduced until
>nearly
> > 50 years after first publication of his book and almost 30 years after he
> > died?
> >
> > Does anyone have an answer to this apparent anomaly?
> >
> > John...
> >
> >
> > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> > John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:07:25 -0600
From: "John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
Beginning as early as Lewis and Clark, western travelers had referred to
various grouse species as "pheasants". On the Bitterroot Trail in the fall
of 1805, Lewis notes that the only thing they had killed and eaten in
several days was a few "pheasants".
My assumption is that Leonard was making the same general error and was
described what were probably tail feathers from sage grouse. This certainly
would have been consistent with other northern Plains tribes who used sage
grouse, prairie grouse, and other grouse feathers in their ornamentation.
This is also a much simpler explanation than trying to explain how Chinese
pheasant feathers work their way through trade routes to the Apsarokee
people without becoming so bedraggled that they wouldn't have been much good
for anything.
But a great question!
John
Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: (307) 742-0883
e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <kramer@kramerize.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:57 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
>
> >In again reading Zenas Leonard's Narrative I encountered a passage near
> >the end of his work that gave me pause.
>
> He speaks of the Crow celebrating a victory over the Blackfeet having
their
> "heads delightfully ornamented with magpie and pheasant tails"
>
> My Websters 1828 carries a listing for pheasant; definition essentially
the
> same as today.
>
> All of the history of pheasant that I can find; mentions attempts were
made
> to introduce pheasant as early as 1733 none of which were successful until
> a couple dozen were released in Oregon in the 1880's, references to
> stocking in mountain and plains states are post-1900.
>
> Were pheasant feathers being traded out of the Orient with tea? Does
> anyone remember any on trade lists?
>
> Where did the Crow get pheasant feathers; and if there weren't any
> pheasants why were they mentioned in Websters? How did Zenas Leonard
> recognize them as such if they weren't successfully introduced until
nearly
> 50 years after first publication of his book and almost 30 years after he
> died?
>
> Does anyone have an answer to this apparent anomaly?
>
> John...
>
>
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:19:27 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
In a message dated 10/16/02 1:08:47 PM, jlallen@wyoming.com writes:
<< Beginning as early as Lewis and Clark, western travelers had referred to
various grouse species as "pheasants". >>
Kinda like when they refered to all grains as "corn" or "wheat"??
Will you go with that one, John??
Laramie! Any snow there, yet?
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:22:08 -0600
From: "John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
Pretty much the same--although the Europeans did the same thing with grains,
using the generic term "corn" to refer to grain crops/plants.
Some little snow in the Laramie Plains, more in the mountains and a lot more
in the northern end of the state. I sat at our cabin on the North Fork of
the Shoshone last Sunday morning, with about 5 inches of fresh snow on the
ground, watching three buffalo graze in the meadow in front of our place
(we're near the east gate of Yellowstone and the buffalo begin to wander
down into our valley about now). About a hundred yards away from them was
the neighborhood grizz, sitting on the ground with his hind legs stuck out
in front of him, like he was waiting for breakfast.
Terrible country to have to call home.
John
Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: (307) 742-0883
e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <SWzypher@aol.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
>
> In a message dated 10/16/02 1:08:47 PM, jlallen@wyoming.com writes:
>
> << Beginning as early as Lewis and Clark, western travelers had referred
to
>
> various grouse species as "pheasants". >>
>
> Kinda like when they refered to all grains as "corn" or "wheat"??
> Will you go with that one, John??
>
> Laramie! Any snow there, yet?
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: 16 Oct 2002 20:28:31 -0600
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A question for the Ornithologists amongst us?
The books in the library on pheasants say that they were brought back here =
from China by our ambassadors - 1891 thru San Francisco and 1896 thru the =
East Coast - the first successful transplants. Don
On Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:57 PM, John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> =
wrote:
>
>>In again reading Zenas Leonard's Narrative I encountered a passage near=20
>>the end of his work that gave me pause.
>
>He speaks of the Crow celebrating a victory over the Blackfeet having =
their=20
>"heads delightfully ornamented with magpie and pheasant tails"
>
>My Websters 1828 carries a listing for pheasant; definition essentially =
the=20
>same as today.
>
>All of the history of pheasant that I can find; mentions attempts were =
made=20
>to introduce pheasant as early as 1733 none of which were successful =
until=20
>a couple dozen were released in Oregon in the 1880's, references to=20
>stocking in mountain and plains states are post-1900.
>
>Were pheasant feathers being traded out of the Orient with tea? Does=20
>anyone remember any on trade lists?
>
>Where did the Crow get pheasant feathers; and if there weren't any=20
>pheasants why were they mentioned in Websters? How did Zenas Leonard=20
>recognize them as such if they weren't successfully introduced until =
nearly=20
>50 years after first publication of his book and almost 30 years after he=20
>died?
>
>Does anyone have an answer to this apparent anomaly?
