ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n1057

Internet Message Format | 2002-07-09 | 40KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1057
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest        Tuesday, July 9 2002        Volume 01 : Number 1057



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver
-áááááá MtMan-List: Nothing really
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:50:55 -0600
From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

Shucks, I normally would not jump into this discussion, but I
couldn't resist stepping out of lurkdom and adding my two cents
in on a discussion I don't know diddly about.... but to add  fuel
to the fire, there are lots of plants around the intermountain
west to make dye out of...a trapper wouldn't have to go far to
find some.

pinecones, for instance, balsam root, camas, elderberry, any
variety of oak, huckleberry,  hops, wild rose, willow, and a
bunch of others...a lot of these don't really require much to get
the dye out, either.  I think all of this little list occurred
wild somewhere in the area.  There are a lot more out there, too.

Now I'll slink back into my more "womanly" researches on making
things, and who was hooked up with whom, and let the fireworks
continue.

Sue Stone
[e-mail]

Windwalker wrote:
>
> osage orange, persimmon, red oche
>
> On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:44, John Kramer wrote:
>
> > Windwalker,
> >
> > I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the
> > Rocky Mountain West.
> >
> > John...
> >
> >
> > At 10:17 PM 7/8/02, you wrote:
> > >grin... they didn't "buy" dye... walnut hulls make a good dye, tis what i use
> > >and plant  can make a dye.. even indigo
> > >Animal fat would be no good as scent of animal is on it.. a severe no no.
> > >Any Trapper knows Human scent is a problem with trapping..
> > >Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high heaven
> > >Dyeing traps is a accepted practice way before MM era...
> > >I will state again No trapper worth his salt modern or old would allow his
> > >traps to be
> > >used to hang a corn boiler or pot...
> > >Anyone that camps primitive style knows how to hang pots with sticks...
> > >even another question... why hang them anyway? Reflector rock fires were
> > >and are
> > >common
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On 8 Jul 2002 at 19:39, Todd Glover wrote:
> > >
> > > > Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing
> > > > their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye
> > > > and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their
> > > > traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat.
> > > > But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the
> > > > trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was
> > > > largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet
> > > > unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with
> > > > other species.
> > > > Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare
> > > > among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them
> > > > dripping in your stew at least.
> > > >
> > > > Teton
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
> > > > writes:
> > > > > Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting.
> > > > > Also dying. it helps kill the scent.
> > > > > As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so.
> > > > > But Im sure some did.
> > > > > Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the
> > > > > rust
> > > > > ans kill the scent as best as possible.
> > > > > One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap"
> > > > > Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls
> > > > > ect
> > > > > The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being
> > > > > made
> > > > > at the time and were in high demand.
> > > > > Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era.
> > > > > {See Williamsburg Journals}
> > > > > Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only.
> > > > > The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the
> > > > > dye..
> > > > > And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the
> > > > > trap
> > > > > .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice"  when wax was available.
> > > > > Wax sealed traps  from rust for shipment, when the traps were being
> > > > > made in volume.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > WindWalker,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered
> > > > > about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is
> > > > > common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that
> > > > > they did it historically? Just curious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Teton
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > > hist_text list info:
> > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > hist_text list info:
> > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
> > > > http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----------------------
> > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > John T. Kramer, maker of:
> >
> > Kramer's Best Antique Improver
> >  >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
> >          >>>As good as old!<<<
> >
> > <http://www.kramerize.com/>
> >
> > mail to: <[e-mail]>
> > 816-252-9512 voice
> > 816-252-9121 fax
> > Kramer Products, Inc.
> > POB 8715
> > Sugar Creek, MO  64054
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:57:10 -0600
From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

on 7/9/02 10:44 AM, John Kramer at [e-mail] wrote:

> Windwalker,
>
> I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the
> Rocky Mountain West.
>
> John...
>
>
> At 10:17 PM 7/8/02, you wrote:
>> grin... they didn't "buy" dye... walnut hulls make a good dye, tis what i use
>> and plant  can make a dye.. even indigo
>> Animal fat would be no good as scent of animal is on it.. a severe no no.
>> Any Trapper knows Human scent is a problem with trapping..
>> Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high heaven
>> Dyeing traps is a accepted practice way before MM era...
>> I will state again No trapper worth his salt modern or old would allow his
>> traps to be
>> used to hang a corn boiler or pot...
>> Anyone that camps primitive style knows how to hang pots with sticks...
>> even another question... why hang them anyway? Reflector rock fires were
>> and are
>> common
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8 Jul 2002 at 19:39, Todd Glover wrote:
>>
>>> Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing
>>> their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye
>>> and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their
>>> traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat.
>>> But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the
>>> trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was
>>> largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet
>>> unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with
>>> other species.
>>> Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare
>>> among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them
>>> dripping in your stew at least.
>>>
>>> Teton
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
>>> writes:
>>>> Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting.
>>>> Also dying. it helps kill the scent.
>>>> As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so.
>>>> But Im sure some did.
>>>> Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the
>>>> rust
>>>> ans kill the scent as best as possible.
>>>> One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap"
>>>> Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls
>>>> ect
>>>> The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being
>>>> made
>>>> at the time and were in high demand.
>>>> Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era.
>>>> {See Williamsburg Journals}
>>>> Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only.
>>>> The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the
>>>> dye..
>>>> And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the
>>>> trap
>>>> .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice"  when wax was available.
>>>> Wax sealed traps  from rust for shipment, when the traps were being
>>>> made in volume.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, [e-mail] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> WindWalker,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered
>>>> about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is
>>>> common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that
>>>> they did it historically? Just curious.
>>>>>
>>>>> Teton
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------
>>>>> hist_text list info:
>>>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------
>>>> hist_text list info:
>>>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
>>> http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
> Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>> It makes wood wonderful<<<
>>>> As good as old!<<<
>
> <http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
> mail to: <[e-mail]>
> 816-252-9512 voice
> 816-252-9121 fax
> Kramer Products, Inc.
> POB 8715
> Sugar Creek, MO  64054
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Hello the camp,
It must be a slow week, I read the article and took it with a grain of salt.
Using a trap for cooking I would never do only because it would be cumbersom
and there are manny ways that would work better (rope,thong,stick,chain).
Every time you set the trap it gets wet and starts to rust, so who needs
dye?
The whole article and this discussion supposes that trapers from the period
invented backpacking. Most trappers from the period were in parties with 2
to 3 animals per man and as I have mentioned in the past "the reason for
lots of pack animals is to haul out there catch".
Ole


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:27:56 -0400
From: "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

Bless your heart


On 9 Jul 2002 at 12:50, James and Sue Stone wrote:

> Shucks, I normally would not jump into this discussion, but I
> couldn't resist stepping out of lurkdom and adding my two cents
> in on a discussion I don't know diddly about.... but to add  fuel
> to the fire, there are lots of plants around the intermountain
> west to make dye out of...a trapper wouldn't have to go far to
> find some.
>
> pinecones, for instance, balsam root, camas, elderberry, any
> variety of oak, huckleberry,  hops, wild rose, willow, and a
> bunch of others...a lot of these don't really require much to get
> the dye out, either.  I think all of this little list occurred
> wild somewhere in the area.  There are a lot more out there, too.
>
> Now I'll slink back into my more "womanly" researches on making
> things, and who was hooked up with whom, and let the fireworks
> continue.
>
> Sue Stone
> [e-mail]
>
> Windwalker wrote:
> >
> > osage orange, persimmon, red oche
> >
> > On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:44, John Kramer wrote:
> >
> > > Windwalker,
> > >
> > > I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the
> > > Rocky Mountain West.
> > >
> > > John...
> > >
> > >
> > > At 10:17 PM 7/8/02, you wrote:
> > > >grin... they didn't "buy" dye... walnut hulls make a good dye, tis what i use
> > > >and plant  can make a dye.. even indigo
> > > >Animal fat would be no good as scent of animal is on it.. a severe no no.
> > > >Any Trapper knows Human scent is a problem with trapping..
> > > >Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high heaven
> > > >Dyeing traps is a accepted practice way before MM era...
> > > >I will state again No trapper worth his salt modern or old would allow his
> > > >traps to be
> > > >used to hang a corn boiler or pot...
> > > >Anyone that camps primitive style knows how to hang pots with sticks...
> > > >even another question... why hang them anyway? Reflector rock fires were
> > > >and are
> > > >common
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On 8 Jul 2002 at 19:39, Todd Glover wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing
> > > > > their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye
> > > > > and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their
> > > > > traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat.
> > > > > But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the
> > > > > trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was
> > > > > largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet
> > > > > unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with
> > > > > other species.
> > > > > Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare
> > > > > among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them
> > > > > dripping in your stew at least.
> > > > >
> > > > > Teton
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
> > > > > writes:
> > > > > > Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting.
> > > > > > Also dying. it helps kill the scent.
> > > > > > As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so.
> > > > > > But Im sure some did.
> > > > > > Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the
> > > > > > rust
> > > > > > ans kill the scent as best as possible.
> > > > > > One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap"
> > > > > > Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls
> > > > > > ect
> > > > > > The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being
> > > > > > made
> > > > > > at the time and were in high demand.
> > > > > > Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era.
> > > > > > {See Williamsburg Journals}
> > > > > > Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only.
> > > > > > The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the
> > > > > > dye..
> > > > > > And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the
> > > > > > trap
> > > > > > .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice"  when wax was available.
> > > > > > Wax sealed traps  from rust for shipment, when the traps were being
> > > > > > made in volume.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > WindWalker,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered
> > > > > > about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is
> > > > > > common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that
> > > > > > they did it historically? Just curious.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Teton
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > > > hist_text list info:
> > > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > > hist_text list info:
> > > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
> > > > > http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----------------------
> > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > > John T. Kramer, maker of:
> > >
> > > Kramer's Best Antique Improver
> > >  >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
> > >          >>>As good as old!<<<
> > >
> > > <http://www.kramerize.com/>
> > >
> > > mail to: <[e-mail]>
> > > 816-252-9512 voice
> > > 816-252-9121 fax
> > > Kramer Products, Inc.
> > > POB 8715
> > > Sugar Creek, MO  64054
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:31:45 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

Windwalker,

Hedge and persimmon are also not native to the Rocky Mountains, red ochre
can be found in a few areas.  Sue Stone has listed a number of native
specie that could be used for dyeing.

As you are certain the Rocky Mountaineers dyed and waxed their traps.  What
did they use?  It is unlikely it would have been walnut, indigo, osage or
persimmon.  Red ochre is iron oxide so how is that much different than rust
on a trap?

John...


At 12:19 PM 7/9/02, you wrote:
>osage orange, persimmon, red oche
>
>On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:44, John Kramer wrote:
>
> > Windwalker,
> >
> > I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the
> > Rocky Mountain West.
> >
> > John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:25:28 -0600
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

Osage Orange and persimmon are also not in the Rocky
Mountain West. These are mid-west and eastern plants found in most areas
that would have the walnut. Don't know what Red oche is?

Bead Shooter

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps


> osage orange, persimmon, red oche
>
> On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:44, John Kramer wrote:
>
> > Windwalker,
> >
> > I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the
> > Rocky Mountain West.
> >
> > John...



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:23:40 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

"Don't know what Red oche is?"

Red ochre is the proper spelling.  It is a pigment.
Lanney

From Webster Dictionary:
red ochre: a red earthy hematite used as a pigment.

hematite:a mineral constituting an important iron ore and occurring in
crystals or red earthy form.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:28:51 -0600
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

Thanks Lanney. I thought it was either ochre or someone trying to spell oak,
since the topic was discussing plants for dye.

Bead Shooter

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps


> "Don't know what Red oche is?"
>
> Red ochre is the proper spelling.  It is a pigment.
> Lanney
>
> From Webster Dictionary:
> red ochre: a red earthy hematite used as a pigment.
>
> hematite:a mineral constituting an important iron ore and occurring in
> crystals or red earthy form.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:36:59 -0600 (MDT)
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver

 A few more answers to some of the questions.
    There are no references to dyeing or waxing traps in any mountain man
journals that I have ever read and I've read a lot of them. No references,
zip, zero, nada! You got one? Show the list. Mountainmen did not dye and
certainly did not wax traps. Never seen it ever in print, ever. They
bought traps, chains and spare springs. Trap setting tools were and are
for big weaklings. One more thing to carry, they didn't use them unless
they were lame or one armed. Windwalker I've never heard of a slider set
being used in the Mountainman era. Slider sets take wire and long wire.
Wrong era. Unless your refering to a slide set that runs down a long dead
pole?
   Beaver traps are set under the water. Don't have to be died, don't have
to be even covered. No animal will ever learn to smell scent under the
water unless its a fish. This is why the prison escapees always headed for
the creek when the bloodhounds are after them in the old movies.
   Some areas of the west and northwest do indeed have animals that have
never seen a human and have not been conditioned to fear man.
   I have four handforged traps, three originals and one reproduction.
They get rained on, set in rivers and sit outdoors days at a time. They do
not rust. Whatever light surface rust collects on them can be rubbed off
by hand. Mountainmen did not go lilly footing through the forest searching
for just the right type and color of flower to dye their trap a perfect
hue of lavender. They went searching through the woods for beaver and they
killed them whenever they found them in anyway possible at all times of
the year. And like I said before, if you think otherwise you are a dreamer!
     No trapper, period! Would ever set a trap over or near or even think
about using a trap to hang a pot over a hot campfire. Ever! Unless he's a
one armed lame beaver trapper who can't set it anyway. I know all the
great trappers in Montana and not a one would ever do it. Never, ever.
     Whenever you set a trap for beaver you set and spring it 2 or 3 times
to loosen up the jaws and that is only if its not been set or sprung for a
few months. Ain't a beaver alive that can't be caught in a foothold trap
especially a blind set. Ain't a beaver alive that knows what a snare is! I
won't mention 330 conibear traps cause they are not period correct.
Besides 330's are for beginner beaver trappers. That is a whole other
discussion that does not belong on this web site.
      I have caught, snared, and shot hundreds if not a thousand beaver in
my 25 years of trapping. All you need are several good footholds to catch
a ton of beaver. You catch the first couple with blind sets or use willows
for bait. After that you make your own "bate" using the recipe out of the
L&C Journal.(it was recorded while at Clatsop) If you don't have traps the
mountainmen hunted beaver. They shot them by the thousands! Beaver come
out at dusk and can be hunted then and in the morning.(all night in a full
moon) And they swam for a dead one if they had to. (we have laws to follow
now unlike the MM, though some states still let you shoot beaver, check
your local laws)
    And for you dreamers that actually think mountainmen trapped only when
furs were prime and practiced conservation, like letting streams rest or
skipping a stream for a year. Give me a break! While you're in your camp
being the conservationist telling Yarns and baking cobblers in your Dutch
ovens the next brigade are trapping the beaver. They started killing
beaver right out of St. Louis. Then they had to go to western Missouri,
soon they where in the Dakota's, then Montana, then to the west coast and
the southwest. Why? Not to see more pretty scenery. Because the easily
caught beaver were all dead and on top of some dandy's hat in Paris or
London in the form of a felt top hat. They had to migrate around to find
more beaver. In the process they discovered and mapped a nation.
    Until you have trapped 20-30 or more beaver and your hands are cracked
and bleeding from the ice cold water and mud. And you have spent hours
upon hours skinning and fleshing their hides until your back aches and
your hands are caked in blood, you cannot understand what these men went
through or begin to understand how tough and determined they were. If your
weren't a trapper then, you catered to them. Beaver were the bottom line.



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:43:07 -0400
From: "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver

hat was said in earlier posts? huh??
Im awaiting a fax on the documentation..
Im very well aware of trapping methods in all areas.
as its been mostly my income for my adult life.
One don't find reference to what they wiped their cans with after a dump, so by
theory is safe to say they didn't cause no modern published books have refernece
to it?
Your thosands of beaver have no refernece to whats at hand..
nor my 50+yrs at the craft..
When faxed the document I want will only post it. Otherwise this ends it.
Someone is beginning to sound like TOF and it aint me.
And if ya aint seen a beaver slide...ya aint a trapper.
finis


On 9 Jul 2002 at 19:36, [e-mail] wrote:

>  A few more answers to some of the questions.
>     There are no references to dyeing or waxing traps in any mountain man
> journals that I have ever read and I've read a lot of them. No references,
> zip, zero, nada! You got one? Show the list. Mountainmen did not dye and
> certainly did not wax traps. Never seen it ever in print, ever. They
> bought traps, chains and spare springs. Trap setting tools were and are
> for big weaklings. One more thing to carry, they didn't use them unless
> they were lame or one armed. Windwalker I've never heard of a slider set
> being used in the Mountainman era. Slider sets take wire and long wire.
> Wrong era. Unless your refering to a slide set that runs down a long dead
> pole?
>    Beaver traps are set under the water. Don't have to be died, don't have
> to be even covered. No animal will ever learn to smell scent under the
> water unless its a fish. This is why the prison escapees always headed for
> the creek when the bloodhounds are after them in the old movies.
>    Some areas of the west and northwest do indeed have animals that have
> never seen a human and have not been conditioned to fear man.
>    I have four handforged traps, three originals and one reproduction.
> They get rained on, set in rivers and sit outdoors days at a time. They do
> not rust. Whatever light surface rust collects on them can be rubbed off
> by hand. Mountainmen did not go lilly footing through the forest searching
> for just the right type and color of flower to dye their trap a perfect
> hue of lavender. They went searching through the woods for beaver and they
> killed them whenever they found them in anyway possible at all times of
> the year. And like I said before, if you think otherwise you are a dreamer!
>      No trapper, period! Would ever set a trap over or near or even think
> about using a trap to hang a pot over a hot campfire. Ever! Unless he's a
> one armed lame beaver trapper who can't set it anyway. I know all the
> great trappers in Montana and not a one would ever do it. Never, ever.
>      Whenever you set a trap for beaver you set and spring it 2 or 3 times
> to loosen up the jaws and that is only if its not been set or sprung for a
> few months. Ain't a beaver alive that can't be caught in a foothold trap
> especially a blind set. Ain't a beaver alive that knows what a snare is! I
> won't mention 330 conibear traps cause they are not period correct.
> Besides 330's are for beginner beaver trappers. That is a whole other
> discussion that does not belong on this web site.
>       I have caught, snared, and shot hundreds if not a thousand beaver in
> my 25 years of trapping. All you need are several good footholds to catch
> a ton of beaver. You catch the first couple with blind sets or use willows
> for bait. After that you make your own "bate" using the recipe out of the
> L&C Journal.(it was recorded while at Clatsop) If you don't have traps the
> mountainmen hunted beaver. They shot them by the thousands! Beaver come
> out at dusk and can be hunted then and in the morning.(all night in a full
> moon) And they swam for a dead one if they had to. (we have laws to follow
> now unlike the MM, though some states still let you shoot beaver, check
> your local laws)
>     And for you dreamers that actually think mountainmen trapped only when
> furs were prime and practiced conservation, like letting streams rest or
> skipping a stream for a year. Give me a break! While you're in your camp
> being the conservationist telling Yarns and baking cobblers in your Dutch
> ovens the next brigade are trapping the beaver. They started killing
> beaver right out of St. Louis. Then they had to go to western Missouri,
> soon they where in the Dakota's, then Montana, then to the west coast and
> the southwest. Why? Not to see more pretty scenery. Because the easily
> caught beaver were all dead and on top of some dandy's hat in Paris or
> London in the form of a felt top hat. They had to migrate around to find
> more beaver. In the process they discovered and mapped a nation.
>     Until you have trapped 20-30 or more beaver and your hands are cracked
> and bleeding from the ice cold water and mud. And you have spent hours
> upon hours skinning and fleshing their hides until your back aches and
> your hands are caked in blood, you cannot understand what these men went
> through or begin to understand how tough and determined they were. If your
> weren't a trapper then, you catered to them. Beaver were the bottom line.
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:48:15 -0400
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Nothing really

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C2279A.B6388740
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

God, I hate flatlanders.

D
]Ay! They come! They come!
Wi' skirl o' pipe an' beat o' drum
A' braw lads o' Scotia's blood
Tho' far awa' frae bens an' muirs
Tae follow the lad o' Cameron line
Clasping Targe an' Claymore
Wi' courage an' pride
They battle as warriors o' auld
A' yells makes blood run cauld
Wild Highlanders! Wild Highlanders!
Intae tha fray! Stand an' hold
Scotia! Scotia Mo Chridhe! For ay!

- - Kathleen Calhoun=20



- ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C2279A.B6388740
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>God, I hate flatlanders.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>]Ay! They come! They come!<BR>Wi' skirl =
o' pipe an'=20
beat o' drum<BR>A' braw lads o' Scotia's blood<BR>Tho' far awa' frae =
bens an'=20
muirs<BR>Tae follow the lad o' Cameron line<BR>Clasping Targe an'=20
Claymore<BR>Wi' courage an' pride<BR>They battle as warriors o' =
auld<BR>A' yells=20
makes blood run cauld<BR>Wild Highlanders! Wild Highlanders!<BR>Intae =
tha fray!=20
Stand an' hold<BR>Scotia! Scotia Mo Chridhe! For ay!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Kathleen Calhoun </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C2279A.B6388740--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:22:34 -0400
From: "traprjon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver

BeaverBoy,

    Most of what you say is true.  However, the delivery could be a little
less offensive to those less knowledgeable than yourself.

>       ""I have caught, snared, and shot hundreds if not a thousand beaver
in
> my 25 years of trapping. All you need are several good footholds to catch
> a ton of beaver.""

    Sounds like you have many good years of experience.  I have been a
trapper for almost as long and have quit jobs (in the past) to go trappin
when critters were worth cash money.  In years when they weren't (more often
than not), I trapped anyway (still do) because of a love of nature, critters
and the sport.  I have been a Trapper Education Instructor in NH for 6 or 8
years and more importantly have trapped 150 to 200 plus beavers per season,
for years, with foothold traps.  That's including skinning, fleshing and
stretching them!!!  I learned to beaver trap through the ice, many times
having to "spud" through 30" plus thick ice in 0 degree and less
temperatures to check traps, something I don't believe many if any mountain
man ever did.  I have trapped hundreds of beaver in all seasons with foot
hold traps and have some skill and knowledge of it.  So I guess that
entitles me to my say here too.

>     ""Until you have trapped 20-30 or more beaver and your hands are
cracked
> and bleeding from the ice cold water and mud. And you have spent hours
> upon hours skinning and fleshing their hides until your back aches and
> your hands are caked in blood, you cannot understand what these men went
> through or begin to understand how tough and determined they were.""

    Been there, done that, as have you.  As you pointed out though, a lot of
trappin was done in the more mild seasons because beaver used for felting
don't need to be prime and ice was a problem.

> ""I won't mention 330 conibear traps cause they are not period correct.
> Besides 330's are for beginner beaver trappers. That is a whole other
> discussion that does not belong on this web site.""

    I use mostly 330's for beaver today for a variety of reasons and I'm
hardly a beginner.  If the 330 discussion doesn't belong on this list,
neither does your comment regarding them.

> ""Trap setting tools were and are
> for big weaklings. One more thing to carry,
> they didn't use them unless they were lame or one armed.""

    I use a 330 setting tool on the trap line for safety reasons these days
and consider the extra weight worth it.  I am still able to set 330's, 220's
and number 5 Bridger double long spring traps by hand.  I know good trappers
in their 60's that have arthritis who can't set some of these traps by hand
anymore.  However, they are still good trappers.

    I have 2 reasons for this post.  First, there is no good reason to
insult anyone as you have in especially the last two statements I referenced
from your post.

    Secondly, you are obviously a very experienced trapper who has paid his
"dues".  Correct me if I'm wrong (Mr Rudy), this list is a place for less
experienced people to be able to get some knowledge through discussion with
people such as yourself, BeaverBoy, who have experience at a particular
skill or trade.  That purpose is best accomplished by people being
respectful of and to others.  Those that don't have your vast experience may
well say something or express an opinion that you consider "stupid", when in
fact they weren't born with the knowledge any more than you or I were.  I
would much rather read an intelligent and non-offensive post about anything,
than to read a post wherein it looks like everyone with a particular skill
(like trappin) appears to be arrogant and belittling to those who don't know
or even to those of us that do!!!  That's how my stick floats.
    To the list:  I apologize for my lack of restraint in my response to
BeaverBoy.  I hope I didn't do what I just asked others not to do.

YMHS
John Enos
[e-mail]
*****************************************************************
"We The People, are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts,
not to
overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the
Constitution."
- -- Abraham Lincoln
****************************************************************
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere, restrains evil
interference.  They deserve a place of honor with all that is
good." --George Washington
***************************************************************
- ----- Aux Aliments de Pays!!!


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #1057
********************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.