ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n1056

Internet Message Format | 2002-07-08 | 39KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1056
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest        Tuesday, July 9 2002        Volume 01 : Number 1056



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá MtMan-List: Miller Painting
-áááááá MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]
-áááááá MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:39:23 -0600
From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing
their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye
and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their
traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat.
But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the
trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was
largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet
unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with
other species.
Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare
among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them
dripping in your stew at least.

Teton


On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting.
> Also dying. it helps kill the scent.
> As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so.
> But Im sure some did.
> Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the
> rust
> ans kill the scent as best as possible.
> One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap"
> Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls
> ect
> The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being
> made
> at the time and were in high demand.
> Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era.
> {See Williamsburg Journals}
> Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only.
> The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the
> dye..
> And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the
> trap
> .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice"  when wax was available.
> Wax sealed traps  from rust for shipment, when the traps were being
> made in volume.
>
>
> On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > WindWalker,
> >
> > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered
> about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is
> common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that
> they did it historically? Just curious.
> >
> > Teton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:17:13 -0400
From: "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

grin... they didn't "buy" dye... walnut hulls make a good dye, tis what i use
and plant  can make a dye.. even indigo
Animal fat would be no good as scent of animal is on it.. a severe no no.
Any Trapper knows Human scent is a problem with trapping..
Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high heaven
Dyeing traps is a accepted practice way before MM era...
I will state again No trapper worth his salt modern or old would allow his traps to be
used to hang a corn boiler or pot...
Anyone that camps primitive style knows how to hang pots with sticks...
even another question... why hang them anyway? Reflector rock fires were and are
common



On 8 Jul 2002 at 19:39, Todd Glover wrote:

> Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing
> their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye
> and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their
> traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat.
> But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the
> trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was
> largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet
> unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with
> other species.
> Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare
> among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them
> dripping in your stew at least.
>
> Teton
>
>
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
> writes:
> > Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting.
> > Also dying. it helps kill the scent.
> > As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so.
> > But Im sure some did.
> > Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the
> > rust
> > ans kill the scent as best as possible.
> > One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap"
> > Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls
> > ect
> > The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being
> > made
> > at the time and were in high demand.
> > Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era.
> > {See Williamsburg Journals}
> > Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only.
> > The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the
> > dye..
> > And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the
> > trap
> > .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice"  when wax was available.
> > Wax sealed traps  from rust for shipment, when the traps were being
> > made in volume.
> >
> >
> > On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> > > WindWalker,
> > >
> > > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered
> > about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is
> > common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that
> > they did it historically? Just curious.
> > >
> > > Teton
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
> http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:55:29 -0700
From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Miller Painting

<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Guys,    Check this site out for a story about a long lost Miller Painting....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.obscurestore.com/">http://www.obscurestore.com/</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> It's better than winning the lottery......     Randy</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV>
<DIV>--- <A href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></DIV>
<DIV>we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,</DIV>
<DIV>we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 06:26:46 -0600 (MDT)
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking

     I've never seen any references of trap dying or waxing back in the
era. Hand forged traps are naturally rust resistant by the finish imparted
on them by the blacksmith. I own three originals and a modern reproduction
and none of them seem to rust. What little they get I rub off with my
hand. You do see references to extra springs being ordered as they broke.
     Scents on beaver traps is not an issue as the traps are set under
water and no scent can be detected by any animal underwater. Dry land
trapping for say fox, wolf etc is altogether a different story. But still
I think animals back then did not have much fear of the smell of steel
like they do now. They have become conditioned to fear the scent of steel
or man. I can still catch red fox to this day with modern traps right out
of the box and set with my bare hands. (I don't usally do it that way but
it can be done) And of course some animals are attracted to the scent of
man like camp raiding coons.
     I still love Rex's articles in ML magazine. He is a very smart man
and a very talented artist. The trap cooking tripod is the only thing I've
seen Rex write that I did not agree with. Keep up the great work Rex!



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jul 2002 21:23:02 -0600
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

If the traps are placed under water, there is no human scent for them to =
smell, provided they never learned how to sniff things under water.  Don

On Tuesday, August 26, 1941, Todd Glover <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing
>their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye
>and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their
>traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat.
>But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the
>trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was
>largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet
>unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with
>other species.
>Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare
>among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them
>dripping in your stew at least.
>
>Teton
>
>
>On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
>writes:
>> Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting.
>> Also dying. it helps kill the scent.
>> As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so.
>> But Im sure some did.
>> Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the=20
>> rust
>> ans kill the scent as best as possible.
>> One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap"
>> Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls=20
>> ect
>> The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being=20
>> made
>> at the time and were in high demand.
>> Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era.
>> {See Williamsburg Journals}
>> Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only.
>> The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the=20
>> dye..
>> And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the=20
>> trap
>> .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice"  when wax was available.
>> Wax sealed traps  from rust for shipment, when the traps were being
>> made in volume.
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, [e-mail] wrote:
>>=20
>> > WindWalker,
>> >=20
>> > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered=20
>> about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is=20
>> common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that=20
>> they did it historically? Just curious.
>> >=20
>> > Teton
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> > ----------------------
>> > hist_text list info:=20
>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info:=20
>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>=20
>
>
>"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
>http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:06:46 -0400
From: "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]

I can see many of you have way to much "book" reading and little time
as a professional trapper.
Traps were Dyied. read the Hudson Bay Journals.
Rusty steel is not good. Makes no diffrence on if underwater, slide
sets were highly popular in early days AS well as den sets.
Did a hole in a mound and trap all out.
Comon practice in early 1800 era.
As well as guide sticks and rocks.
The problem is to many of the article writers only have book reading
and no practical experience. Nor a working knowledge of the animal
they are seeking.
One should NEVER take a article or camp talk as gospel..
do a Library of Congress search on "Dying Trap" and see what you come up with.
I own several Newhouse 14,s  original and 2 hand forged Bear traps. all bear
evidence of earlier dye.
as for new traps... I hope people don't try to set traps without boiling and dying
Tis a chechako thing to do.
Wait till the boys at NTA hear this thread {grin}

On 9 Jul 2002 at 6:26, [e-mail] wrote:

>      I've never seen any references of trap dying or waxing back in the
> era. Hand forged traps are naturally rust resistant by the finish imparted
> on them by the blacksmith. I own three originals and a modern reproduction
> and none of them seem to rust. What little they get I rub off with my
> hand. You do see references to extra springs being ordered as they broke.
>      Scents on beaver traps is not an issue as the traps are set under
> water and no scent can be detected by any animal underwater. Dry land
> trapping for say fox, wolf etc is altogether a different story. But still
> I think animals back then did not have much fear of the smell of steel
> like they do now. They have become conditioned to fear the scent of steel
> or man. I can still catch red fox to this day with modern traps right out
> of the box and set with my bare hands. (I don't usally do it that way but
> it can be done) And of course some animals are attracted to the scent of
> man like camp raiding coons.
>      I still love Rex's articles in ML magazine. He is a very smart man
> and a very talented artist. The trap cooking tripod is the only thing I've
> seen Rex write that I did not agree with. Keep up the great work Rex!
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:06:45 -0400
From: "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

Have you taken much fur using this method?

On 8 Jul 2002 at 21:23, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:

> If the traps are placed under water, there is no human scent for them to smell, provided they never learned how to sniff things under water.  Don
>
> On Tuesday, August 26, 1941, Todd Glover <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing
> >their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye
> >and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their
> >traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat.
> >But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the
> >trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was
> >largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet
> >unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with
> >other species.
> >Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare
> >among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them
> >dripping in your stew at least.
> >
> >Teton
> >
> >
> >On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
> >writes:
> >> Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting.
> >> Also dying. it helps kill the scent.
> >> As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so.
> >> But Im sure some did.
> >> Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the
> >> rust
> >> ans kill the scent as best as possible.
> >> One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap"
> >> Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls
> >> ect
> >> The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being
> >> made
> >> at the time and were in high demand.
> >> Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era.
> >> {See Williamsburg Journals}
> >> Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only.
> >> The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the
> >> dye..
> >> And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the
> >> trap
> >> .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice"  when wax was available.
> >> Wax sealed traps  from rust for shipment, when the traps were being
> >> made in volume.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, [e-mail] wrote:
> >>
> >> > WindWalker,
> >> >
> >> > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered
> >> about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is
> >> common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that
> >> they did it historically? Just curious.
> >> >
> >> > Teton
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------
> >> > hist_text list info:
> >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info:
> >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
> >http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info:
> >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:10:12 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

In a message dated 7/8/02 9:16:01 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high
heaven>>

Where did you get this information???
Richard James

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:42:10 -0400
From: "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

you are clipping out of context...
See journal of Osborne Russell


On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:10, [e-mail] wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/8/02 9:16:01 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high
> heaven>>
>
> Where did you get this information???
> Richard James
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:40:31 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]

- --part1_152.1087bb85.2a5c5def_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/9/2002 8:05:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> I can see many of you have way to much "book" reading and little time
> as a professional trapper. Traps were Dyied. read the Hudson Bay Journals.
>

This thread is interesting, but just telling us to read the HBC Journals
provides no evidence.  Where's the documentation and/or citations that traps
were waxed and dyed?

It seems to me that short of that, it's still speculation and falls into the
"if they had it they'da used it" or "we know it works today so it musta
worked then" theory.

Barney

- --part1_152.1087bb85.2a5c5def_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#000080" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 7/9/2002 8:05:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I can see many of you have way to much "book" reading and little time<BR>
as a professional trapper. Traps were Dyied. read the Hudson Bay Journals.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000080" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B><BR>
This thread is interesting, but just telling us to read the HBC Journals provides no <U>evidence</U>.  Where's the documentation and/or citations that traps were waxed and dyed?<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that short of that, it's still speculation and falls into the "if they had it they'da used it" or "we know it works today so it musta worked then" theory.<BR>
<BR>
Barney  </B></FONT></HTML>

- --part1_152.1087bb85.2a5c5def_boundary--

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:12:20 -0500
From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping.

It is surprising how little heat is needed to affect the temper of
steel.  Springs are typically tempered to a blue to purple oxide color
or 500 to 600 degrees F.   Dull red coals in a fire are at about 1,200
degrees F.

>Mike wrote:

>Plus, a cook fire shouldn't be that big as = to get hot enough to
effect >the temper of the steel.


Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner




- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:37:22 -0400
From: "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]

A phone call was made to the office to pull the info.
and are to be faxed via email.
It was done....
But i would also advise others to do some research also, not just sitting
asking others to provide all for reading pleasure for the masses.



On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:40, [e-mail] wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/9/2002 8:05:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
>
>     I can see many of you have way to much "book" reading and little time
>     as a professional trapper. Traps were Dyied. read the Hudson Bay Journals.
>
>
> This thread is interesting, but just telling us to read the HBC Journals provides no
> evidence. Where's the documentation and/or citations that traps were waxed and
> dyed?
>
> It seems to me that short of that, it's still speculation and falls into the "if they had
> it they'da used it" or "we know it works today so it musta worked then" theory.
>
> Barney



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:44:18 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

Windwalker,

I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the
Rocky Mountain West.

John...


At 10:17 PM 7/8/02, you wrote:
>grin... they didn't "buy" dye... walnut hulls make a good dye, tis what i use
>and plant  can make a dye.. even indigo
>Animal fat would be no good as scent of animal is on it.. a severe no no.
>Any Trapper knows Human scent is a problem with trapping..
>Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high heaven
>Dyeing traps is a accepted practice way before MM era...
>I will state again No trapper worth his salt modern or old would allow his
>traps to be
>used to hang a corn boiler or pot...
>Anyone that camps primitive style knows how to hang pots with sticks...
>even another question... why hang them anyway? Reflector rock fires were
>and are
>common
>
>
>
>On 8 Jul 2002 at 19:39, Todd Glover wrote:
>
> > Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing
> > their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye
> > and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their
> > traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat.
> > But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the
> > trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was
> > largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet
> > unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with
> > other species.
> > Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare
> > among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them
> > dripping in your stew at least.
> >
> > Teton
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
> > writes:
> > > Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting.
> > > Also dying. it helps kill the scent.
> > > As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so.
> > > But Im sure some did.
> > > Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the
> > > rust
> > > ans kill the scent as best as possible.
> > > One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap"
> > > Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls
> > > ect
> > > The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being
> > > made
> > > at the time and were in high demand.
> > > Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era.
> > > {See Williamsburg Journals}
> > > Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only.
> > > The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the
> > > dye..
> > > And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the
> > > trap
> > > .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice"  when wax was available.
> > > Wax sealed traps  from rust for shipment, when the traps were being
> > > made in volume.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, [e-mail] wrote:
> > >
> > > > WindWalker,
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered
> > > about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is
> > > common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that
> > > they did it historically? Just curious.
> > > >
> > > > Teton
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info:
> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >
> > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
> > http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

John T. Kramer, maker of:

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
         >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>
816-252-9512 voice
816-252-9121 fax
Kramer Products, Inc.
POB 8715
Sugar Creek, MO  64054


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 13:03:25 -0400
From: "Tim J." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Windwalker"

> I can see many of you have way to much "book" reading and little time
> as a professional trapper....

As living historians recreating the mountain men, book reading is all we can
go by.  Though I bow to your expertise today, it actually relates very
little to trapping in the early 1800's, there are to many things that have
changed.  Trapping, hunting or fishing in a basically pristine area, as the
western mountains were in 1820 is very differant than the same activities
today.  After several generations the animals learn to fear man and his
activities, thus changing the way man has to go about harvesting game.

> Traps were Dyied. read the Hudson Bay Journals.

Of all the journals I have read I can recall absolutely no reference to the
mountain men dyeing or waxing traps.  Basic repairs to keep the traps
functional were made and journals and parts lists from rendezvous support
this.  But again, no reference to wax/waxing or dye/dyeing anywhere *that I
have found*.

> Rusty steel is not good...

I'll admit this is speculation on my part but, the mountain men seem to have
overwhelmingly used water sets.  They used there traps daily and when a
beaver was taken they seem to have been reset immediately.  When an area was
trapped out they moved as quickly as they could to the next trapping area
where the traps were set as soon as possible.  Given this, natural rust
resistance of hand forged metal and the relatively dry mountain air, how
much would rust have been a factor?

> The problem is to many of the article writers only have book reading
> and no practical experience. Nor a working knowledge of the animal
> they are seeking...

When trying to figure out what the original mountain men did and how they
did it I don't look for anybodies experiences (practical or otherwise) from
today.  IMHO, that has little to nothing to do with researching history.  We
strive to learn the *proper* ways of the originals but there is no way to
actually recreate the circumstances and mindset of the early 1800's mountain
man.

> One should NEVER take a article or camp talk as gospel..

When I first came to this list I got that same advise from several wise list
members (thank you Capt. L, Mr. James and others).  I take nothing as
gospel.  I research anything I am interested in and base my decisions on
that.  Many times the great advise from list members bears the weight of
research and proves correct or at least points me in the right direction.
Their opinions are most often verifiable with source citations and
references.

This is just my humble opinion and not to be taken as gospel (BG).
I don't think I've spoke so much in 20 years.

Steeping down off soap box,

I remain your most humble servant,
Tim (Twoshot) Jewell

p.s. finally got a legitimate camp name (grin)








- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:16:47 -0700
From: Alan Avery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The last word on trap cooking{ he thought]

"...Traps were Dyied. read the Hudson Bay Journals..."


Windwalker,

I am not a trapper, although i have laid a few sets in my time, (and I'm not
trying to be difficult either) but I have spent a fair bit of time poking
around in the Hudson's Bay Co, archives, and saying "read the Hudson Bay
Journals" is kind of like telling someone in New York to find a phone number
by reading the Phone book without giving them a name. The Hudson Bay Co.
literally has warehouses full of journals, ledgers etc. Even just
considering published HBC documents, one could read for the rest of their
life and still not find a specific reference. Like I said, I'm not trying to
be difficult, and I'm not claiming to know much "hands-on" trapping lore,
but if I'm being asked to "read the Hudson Bay journals" I need a little
more to go on.


Watch yer top knot!

Black Knife





- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:19:49 -0400
From: "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps

osage orange, persimmon, red oche

On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:44, John Kramer wrote:

> Windwalker,
>
> I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the
> Rocky Mountain West.
>
> John...
>
>
> At 10:17 PM 7/8/02, you wrote:
> >grin... they didn't "buy" dye... walnut hulls make a good dye, tis what i use
> >and plant  can make a dye.. even indigo
> >Animal fat would be no good as scent of animal is on it.. a severe no no.
> >Any Trapper knows Human scent is a problem with trapping..
> >Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high heaven
> >Dyeing traps is a accepted practice way before MM era...
> >I will state again No trapper worth his salt modern or old would allow his
> >traps to be
> >used to hang a corn boiler or pot...
> >Anyone that camps primitive style knows how to hang pots with sticks...
> >even another question... why hang them anyway? Reflector rock fires were
> >and are
> >common
> >
> >
> >
> >On 8 Jul 2002 at 19:39, Todd Glover wrote:
> >
> > > Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing
> > > their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye
> > > and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their
> > > traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat.
> > > But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the
> > > trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was
> > > largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet
> > > unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with
> > > other species.
> > > Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare
> > > among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them
> > > dripping in your stew at least.
> > >
> > > Teton
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" <[e-mail]>
> > > writes:
> > > > Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting.
> > > > Also dying. it helps kill the scent.
> > > > As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so.
> > > > But Im sure some did.
> > > > Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the
> > > > rust
> > > > ans kill the scent as best as possible.
> > > > One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap"
> > > > Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls
> > > > ect
> > > > The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being
> > > > made
> > > > at the time and were in high demand.
> > > > Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era.
> > > > {See Williamsburg Journals}
> > > > Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only.
> > > > The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the
> > > > dye..
> > > > And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the
> > > > trap
> > > > .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice"  when wax was available.
> > > > Wax sealed traps  from rust for shipment, when the traps were being
> > > > made in volume.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, [e-mail] wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > WindWalker,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered
> > > > about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is
> > > > common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that
> > > > they did it historically? Just curious.
> > > > >
> > > > > Teton
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > hist_text list info:
> > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info:
> > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
> > > http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
> Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>  >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>          >>>As good as old!<<<
>
> <http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
> mail to: <[e-mail]>
> 816-252-9512 voice
> 816-252-9121 fax
> Kramer Products, Inc.
> POB 8715
> Sugar Creek, MO  64054
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #1056
********************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.