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hist_text-digest         Monday, June 22 1998         Volume 01 : Number 090




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:05:37 -0600
From: "Sommer J. Smouse" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

I have to agree with Dave I have been shooting BP pistols for over 20
yrs and have never had a chain fire. I have alway insured that all
nipples are capped and I haven't used any lube on the front end sence I
started. Could figure why everyone believed the lube stopped a chain
fire when you use an oversized ball to start with.

Forrest




[e-mail] wrote:
>
> HBC writes:
> > > I've had a few chain-firings that way.
>
> and John Kramer answers
> >  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement of owning a
> >  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before 1840, I've not
> had
> >  much to do with BP revolvers.
> >  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can help prevent
> >  chainfire.
>
> Guys,
> Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about BP
> revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT of a BP
> revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not having
> them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber, the ball
> is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through the
> nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the above
> conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting them
> all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun is
> pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock position as it
> has no place to exit.
>
> The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes into the
> barrel and lubricates the ball.
>
> Dave Kanger
> New Listowner
> Muzzleloader Mailing list

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:37:07 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book

Vic,

I am willing to work out whatever it takes to at least receive a copy of
these two books, I would buy one if John wanted the other.

Let me know
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:15:53 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube

In a message dated 98-06-19 12:16:58 EDT, you write:

<< What about a black powder revolver lube for those of us who also do periods
 outside the Rondy era?  What is a period-correct (1840s-70s) lube that
 would work.  You know those chambers get warm in the summer and I've had a
 heck of a time keeping them sealed on hot days.  >>

Think John's on the right track with the lard, bees wax, carnuba wax, & soap,
but I think beef tallow (2/3) & bees wax (1/3) might also work & be easier &
cheaper to obtain ingredients.  If it doesn't work in the revolver, you can
use if for greasing mocs & other leather items.

It's been my experience with a '58 Remington reproduction & my observation
with a Colt Walker, chainfires origionate not from the nipple end, but from
the loading end.  When using revolvers, our club requires you only cap the
chamber you're going to fire, leaving open nipples on charged chambers.  Not
saying it can't happen, but I've never seen one chain fire if the chamber
mouths are properly lubed.  Non-period greases that work dandy in hot weather
is simple chasis lube or wheel bearing grease.  Could save a finger until you
get the right mix of period ingredients.  Chain fires used to scare the crap
out of me -- especialy when the 6 O'clock chamber fired.

NM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:15:50 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist

In a message dated 98-06-19 18:14:26 EDT, you write:

<< Never having killed a whale I am relying on reading, what I've been sold,
and
 what I've been told, I know the most desirable oil came from a gland area in
 the head, the old references consider sperm oil and spermaceti the same.  So
 either the gland contains both wax and oil or the oil was rendered from the
 wax.
  >>

Wasn't sperm oil only from the Sperm Whale?  The oils from other Species like
Blues, Norwals, Pilots, & etc were clasified only as "whale oil"?

NM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:29:20 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

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Dave'
The idea that chain fires in a BP revolver are not related to lack of a seal at
the front of the chamber but rather from some mechanical problem with caps,
nipples, or what ever at the back of the cylinder is rather novel and somewhat
interesting. Because I can see some danger from folks taking your comments as the
absolute truth and that could be dangerous to the shooter and bystanders if
cylinders aren't sealed at the front I must ask you to back up your statement with
fact.

I won't claim to be an expert on this. I've only shot revolvers for some 30 years
and so there is much I probably don't know. I admit that I have always greased the
cylinders of my .36 Colt and .44 Remington because that is what I was told to do
way back when I first got started. I was under the impression that I was being
told to do this for two reasons. First reason was to lube the bore and make the
gun shoot  it's best and the second reason was to keep the cylinders from chain
firing. The only time I ever failed to grease the fronts of the cylinders was the
only time I ever experienced a chain fire  episode. I must say that this does not
constitute proof that your theory is wrong. I don't remember which pistol was the
offending  firearm but both pistols were new and I have always used the same caps
and have never had a repeat of this one chain fire episode. I have never again
failed to grease each loaded chamber.

With that, I must ask you in the spirit of sharing to give considerable detail to
showing why your statement is correct.

For what it's worth, I think a mix of lard and bee's wax in a proportion as to
stay solid in warm weather and be workable in any weather would be a very
authentic alternative to modern greases for greasing and lubing BP revolvers. I
don't have specific ratios to offer but I have found that it does not take a great
amount of wax to stiffen up lard to the point that it will not melt in normal
ambient temperatures.

I wonder, has anyone ever come across references to greasing BP revolver cylinders
in the 1800's or was that so common a thing to do that it was not written down or
even less likely, not done at all?

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

[e-mail] wrote:

> HBC writes:
> > > I've had a few chain-firings that way.
>
> and John Kramer answers
> >  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement of owning a
> >  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before 1840, I've not
> had
> >  much to do with BP revolvers.
> >  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can help prevent
> >  chainfire.
>
> Guys,
> Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about BP
> revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT of a BP
> revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not having
> them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber, the ball
> is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through the
> nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the above
> conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting them
> all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun is
> pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock position as it
> has no place to exit.
>
> The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes into the
> barrel and lubricates the ball.
>
> Dave Kanger
> New Listowner
> Muzzleloader Mailing list



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<HTML>
Dave'
<BR>The idea that chain fires in a BP revolver are not related to lack
of a seal at the front of the chamber but rather from some mechanical problem
with caps, nipples, or what ever at the back of the cylinder is rather
novel and somewhat interesting. Because I can see some danger from folks
taking your comments as the absolute truth and that could be dangerous
to the shooter and bystanders if cylinders aren't sealed at the front I
must ask you to back up your statement with fact.

<P>I won't claim to be an expert on this. I've only shot revolvers for
some 30 years and so there is much I probably don't know. I admit that
I have always greased the cylinders of my .36 Colt and .44 Remington because
that is what I was told to do way back when I first got started. I was
under the impression that I was being told to do this for two reasons.
First reason was to lube the bore and make the gun shoot  it's best
and the second reason was to keep the cylinders from chain firing. <B>The
only time I ever failed to grease the fronts of the cylinders was the only
time I ever experienced a chain fire  episode. </B>I must say that
this does not constitute proof that your theory is wrong. I don't remember
which pistol was the offending  firearm but both pistols were new
and I have always used the same caps and have never had a repeat of this
one chain fire episode. I have never again failed to grease each loaded
chamber.

<P><B>With that, I must ask you in the spirit of sharing to give considerable
detail to showing why your statement is correct.</B><B></B>

<P>For what it's worth, I think a mix of lard and bee's wax in a proportion
as to stay solid in warm weather and be workable in any weather would be
a very authentic alternative to modern greases for greasing and lubing
BP revolvers. I don't have specific ratios to offer but I have found that
it does not take a great amount of wax to stiffen up lard to the point
that it will not melt in normal ambient temperatures.

<P>I wonder, has anyone ever come across references to greasing BP revolver
cylinders in the 1800's or was that so common a thing to do that it was
not written down or even less likely, not done at all?

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>HBC writes:
<BR>> > I've had a few chain-firings that way.

<P>and John Kramer answers
<BR>>  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement
of owning a
<BR>>  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before
1840, I've not
<BR>had
<BR>>  much to do with BP revolvers.
<BR>>  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can
help prevent
<BR>>  chainfire.

<P>Guys,
<BR>Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception
about BP
<BR>revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the
FRONT of a BP
<BR>revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps,
not having
<BR>them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber,
the ball
<BR>is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through
the
<BR>nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any
of the above
<BR>conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting
them
<BR>all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if
the gun is
<BR>pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock
position as it
<BR>has no place to exit.

<P>The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It
goes into the
<BR>barrel and lubricates the ball.

<P>Dave Kanger
<BR>New Listowner
<BR>Muzzleloader Mailing list</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

- --------------1B16FF9D5D6D4600A822692C--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 06:53:52 -0700
From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

Washtahey HBC, and the less than strictly purist Mountain Man camp,

I learned the "corn patch" trick from a whole bunch of sources, and it works like
a charm.  Load each chamber in the cylinder with the desired load (about 25 grains
for my .36 cal Colt Navy), and then fill the remaining space with regular corn
meal -- as much as will loosely fill the chambers.  Place a ball on top and with
the revolver's loading arm press it into place, it will nicely compress the load
below and end up seating with the outer end of the ball nicely below the end of
the cylinder.  A dab of whatever bore grease you like in the remaining space
around the perimeter of the ball in the chamber completes the job, and although
this leaves a little grease exposed outside the ball in the cylinder, you can
regulate the amount to get the barrel entry and travel lubricated to your
satisfaction, and if you are loading balls of the 'correct' caliber (so they leave
a little lead skirt when sent home in the cylinder, .375 for a .36 cal chamber),
the corn meal and the fitted ball leave such a gap between the fire at the fore
end of the cylinder and the charge to completely prevent chain fires.  I never had
one, and Good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise, never will -- they sound like
no fun at all.

Watch your top knot

Gary Bell,
Night Heron

[e-mail] wrote:

> HBC writes:
> > > I've had a few chain-firings that way.
>
> and John Kramer answers
> >  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement of owning a
> >  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before 1840, I've not
> had
> >  much to do with BP revolvers.
> >  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can help prevent
> >  chainfire.
>
> Guys,
> Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about BP
> revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT of a BP
> revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not having
> them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber, the ball
> is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through the
> nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the above
> conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting them
> all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun is
> pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock position as it
> has no place to exit.
>
> The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes into the
> barrel and lubricates the ball.
>
> Dave Kanger
> New Listowner
> Muzzleloader Mailing list

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:23:35 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

>Guys,
>Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about BP
>revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT of a BP
>revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not having
>them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber, the ball
>is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through the
>nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the above
>conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting them
>all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun is
>pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock position as it
>has no place to exit.
>
>The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes into the
>barrel and lubricates the ball.
>
>Dave Kanger
>New Listowner
>Muzzleloader Mailing list

I DO use the correct size caps, seated firmly, and I keep a supply of fresh
nipples to replace the worn ones, thank you.  I'm not a novice with PB
revolvers (16 years).  Be that as it may, I won't waste bandwidth arguing
the physics of chainfiring.  Did you have any solutions for a lube that
won't melt on hot days?  That was the core of my question.

TIA
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 00:16:43 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book

At 03:47 PM 6/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>John,
>
>I apologize. Joe's message came through to me first. It would be less than
>fair to offer it to the second. I did refer the original message to you
>from your obvious wealth of previous info. If the information contained
>within those pages is what you are after and not the collectability of the
>work, then may I suggest we let Joe see his quest through.=20

No problem, luck of the mail server gods.  The information is the important
part to me.  Some of my stuff is 6th generation photocopies, a fresh clean
transcription would shine.  Particularly if I don't have to decipher it.

If Joe would prefer the food receipts, I of course would pick up the other.=
=20
the food and booze hold no interest for me.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
=20
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:40:55 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

Washtahay-
At 09:29 AM 6/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>The idea that chain fires in a BP revolver are not related to lack of a
>seal at the front of the chamber but rather from some mechanical problem
>with caps, nipples, or what ever at the back of the cylinder is rather
>novel and somewhat interesting.  Because I can see some danger from folks
>taking your comments as the absolute truth and that could be dangerous to
>the shooter and bystanders if cylinders aren't sealed at the front I must
>ask you to back up your statement with fact.

    I can offer the following, albeit rather anecdotal, information.
    1.  The revolver I shot the most as a kid-an 1851 Colt Navy brought back
as a souvenir from the War of Northern Aggression.  The only time we had
chainfires was when the nipples struck on the recoil shield.  Once because
some smart aleck kid put in new nipples that were too long, and another
time because of wear on the cylinder and recoil shield.  Uncle Norman,
following both instances, measured the gap at the rear of the cylinder (he
had that problem before).  He made me shorten the nipples one time, and the
other time put a shim on the cylinder pin at the rear.  I finally glued
that shim on with epoxy.  That gun stayed loaded and always fired.
    2.  On multiple occasions, I have seen revolvers fired with inadequate
nipple/recoil shield gap.  Chainfires were the norm.  I have duplicated
this condition on demand a number of times-I used to have a Navy with a
spare cylinder from another maker that was too short in the part that the
cylinder pin travels through.  I would load one chamber and cap all the
nipples.  When the loaded chamber was fired, all of the nipples would fire.
 I would then load it the same way, but with the empty chambers full of
cornmeal held in with making tape to seal the chamber mouths.  When the
loaded chamber was fired, again, all caps would go off.
    3.  The chambers ARE sealed at the front.  The oversized lead ball should
do an adequate job of sealing the chamber from the front.  Try this-take a
Colt's Dragoon. Load it with 25 grains of powder, and the correct sized
ball seated down on the powder, no grease.  DO NOT CAP IT.  Stand it on the
nipples.  Using a syringe, fill the chambers with water.  48 hours later,
dump the water and fire the cylinder.  Velocities will be where they should
be.  The light load is just to leave more room for water.
    I would suggest that anyone curious about these experiments be very
careful in duplicating them.  A teenager can survive a lot of stupidity, we
adults aren't always so lucky.
    For a fair amount of time, I used a c&b revolver as a sidearm on the farms
and ranches I worked on as a kid.  During that 10 year period, I fired
somewhere around 20-30 pounds of powder a year (about 5000-7500 rounds)
from the revolvers.  For day to day usage, I did not lube the cylinder
face.  I didn't want the lube getting all over everything, and I did not
know of a period lube I could use that would not melt.  I never had a
chainfire in the field.  I did have two chainfires in that period-one when
I put the new nipples in Uncle Norman's Navy, and one at a match where I
was only allowed to cap one chamber at a time.  (This is my personal
nomination for "Dumbest Range Rule of a Lifetime".)
    I did experiment some with lubes for target use, finally settling on a
lithium grease-but that was toward the end of my big-time c&b revolver craze.
    Nowadays, I sometimes use a lube soaked wad under the ball to help control
fouling.
>you guessed it, more good stuff snipped ;-)<
>I wonder, has anyone
>ever come across references to greasing BP revolver cylinders in the 1800's
>or was that so common a thing to do that it was not written down or even
>less likely, not done at all?
    A quick check of the literature (OK, I checked over 80 books plus a good
sized collection of periodicals, I figured someone would be calling OldFox
on this so I have been working on it since yesterday) shows the following:
    I found no reference to the use of grease applied over the ball.  This
includes reprints of 3 printed broadsides advertising various cap and ball
revolvers.  There was a note that the cartridges (combustible paper, foil,
or membrane) had the bullet end dipped in beeswax.  From experience I can
say that w/o some form of lube, those conicals used in the c&b revolvers
will lead up a gun REAL fast.
    Nine references to contemporary usage in the late 19th and early 20th
century (1882 to 1935) make no mention of greasing the end of the cylinder
to control chainfires.  Two mentions of greased wads between powder and
ball to control fouling (one in the 1920's, the other in 1934), one makes a
note that if carried for a long time like this it was likely to result in
"anemic" power as the grease would migrate to the powder).  All of these
articles were either written by veterans (of the WNG or the various Indian
conflicts) or the writers were assisted by such people.  Someone there was
intimately familiar with the management of c&b revolvers in the time that
they were in common usage.
    In my time in my home town, I was called on occasionally to "see if
Grandpa's gun was loaded" by various elderly folks.  8 or 9 times, I found
c&b revolvers loaded with five or six rounds.  Obviously, no grease was
present, due to the volatility of the oils, but none of the guns showed the
"varnish" or other residue of greases.  None had a wad either.  Most of the
guns were loaded with combustible cartridges, or with conicals and loose
powder.  Not a lot of faith in round ball, or was it what was available?
(One time I was handed a Colt's Army that was returned following the death
of the bearor in 1863 in Pennsylvania.  Still loaded in 3 chambers.
Combustible cartridges.)
    I was introduced to cap and ball revolvers by my (great) Uncle Norman and
my (great great) Grandpa Anderson.  Uncle Norman learned from his father
and grandfather.  His grandfather fought in the WNG, and carried that '51
for several years there, then as a sidearm when he settled on the plains in
the late 1860s.  Judging by his effects he was a bit of a gun bug-if the
use of a lube over ball was common, I am sure he would have mentioned it to
Uncle Norman.  Grandpa Anderson, who died in 1978 at the age of 94 or 95,
had as his only gun a Colt Dragoon (the grips were carved "Christmas
1891").  Other than a stint in the army, he stayed with that gun for his
whole life.  He took me out shooting it several times, he never used grease
over the bullet.  When he was young, cap and ball revolvers were the norm
amongst any of the neighbors who had handguns.  As much as we talked about
shooting old guns, if grease were used by anyone he knew he would have
mentioned it.
    At one time, I used to check several friends out of an old folks home to
shoot or fish.  Those who were familar with c&b revolvers never mentioned
the use of grease over the ball.
    Keith, in "Sixguns by Keith" mentions chainfires due to loose caps and
wear in the gun.  (p210).   He also suggests the use of a greased felt wad
under the ball.  No mention of grease over the ball.
    Based on all of the above, it is my contention that use of a lube over the
ball is not a common period practice, and that if a revolver in good
condition is properly loaded with an oversized ball, failure to use grease
is not a cause of chainfires.

LongWalker c. du B.


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:17:57 -0700
From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist.........Sperm Oil

Yes.  Sperm oil came specifically from the Sperm Whale.  It was obtained
from from a case or great cavity within the skull and literally dipped
out with dippers and barreled without further rendering.  The "blubber"
was boiled and barreled on board ship.  That was "whale oil", used for
lamps, etc.  Spermaceti is a white brittle substance within the oil that
seperates upon the death of the animal.. It was used in the making of
candles and various ointments

John Funk


Man is judged not so much by the friends he keeps but by the ones that
will call him friend.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:45:59 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book

same here ,let me know if you would like some help.
                             traphand

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 08:19:52 -0500
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Prairie du Chein

We were at Prairie du Chein yesterday for the day and enjoyed it greatly,
there were enough traders with so much good stuff that any Hivernant there
will be working the next year to pay off all the goods!
 Most seem to have survived Thursdays storms etc.(Tornado possibly?) and
were ready for another good day. Saturday was hot(90') and we left before
the weather got bad again(5 hour drive). I heard on the radio  that it was
getting bad again and hope everyone got through it all safely.
 One item I picked up and am impressed with and would like to know others
opinions on is a book "HISTORICAL COLONIAL FRENCH DRESS" By Mary M.
Johnson,Judy Forbs, and Kathy Delaney. published by Smoke & Fire News 1997
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 00:17:02 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

As I posted earlier I have only limited experience with BP revolvers.

My first BP gun was a brass frame .36 Navy copy I bought at a freight
outlet in
1968.  Cheaply made Italian if I remember right.  The best feature was, it was
cheaper to shoot than a .22.  All the smoke and fire was fun.  We'd come home
black from head to toe.  Didn't last long as the lock parts were too soft and
wore quickly.

No one in my area was conversant with BP at that time, or at least I didn't
know them.  No one sold molds in the area, caps and powder were hard to find.
Never heard of Dixie Gun Works.  I finally found 000 buck shot, powder and
caps
at a local gun shop and an attitude of: Why do you want to shoot that thing?
There was only one size of caps in town back then.  They would fall off if I
wasn't careful.  Don't remember exact size.  Used to spend hours trying to
keep
it clean and pretty.

Learning was by doing, I started by filling the cylinders with powder and
cramming a buckshot down over the top, no measure; at a buck a pound we poured
directly out of the can, spilled a lot.  Before I learned about grease I
experienced several exciting chainfires, my shooting buddy at the time heard
about grease from an old timer out at Lake City Arsenal.  Back then we used
Crisco.  Fouled something terrible.

After learning about grease I never experienced the chain fire problem with
any
revolver I fired after that.  I haven't fired anything but flint in years.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 01:12:29 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

when i push a ball home it takes off a razor thin circle of lead, which means
in effect the ball itself seals the front of the chamber from the powder. been
shooting BP revolvers for a number of years, only chain fires i've seen came
from caps being loose or falling off from the concussion of a shot previously
fired.  PJ

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:25:13 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Charlie P. Webb)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

Howdy Old Fox,
Seems we both took a lot of heat awhile back on this thread,
but you were then and still are absolutely dead nuts correct
on what you have  written about chain-fires.
    A good home recipe for a black powder cartridge
rifle or black powder revolver lube is olive oil poured into
pure melted Bee's wax, then  stir the mixture until it is
consistant,  let cool, and use.  Will do what lube in a BP
revolver is supposed to do, keep the fouling soft,  it does
not prevent chainfires! Use equal amounts for a fairly firm
batch, or a softer batch with more olive oil added.  For harder
or more firm batch, use less oil.  Its characteristics  and use
are nearly identical to SPG.  Again this "chairfire" thread
has been beaten to death, and much proof has been shown
that original period folks using BP revolvers seldom or
probably never  used a wad,  or cornmeal filler under the
bullet.  The use of any kind of filler is a poor practice that
raises cylinder pressures. During the time of invention and
greatest popularity of the revolving cylinder firearm,  (1836
thru the Civil War,) virtually no records exist that can
document that chain-fireing  was a common event.  If it
happens at any time its because something is wrong!  A
Cap falling off due to recoil,  an undersized bullet,or a
correct size ball in a cylinder with a chamber machined
a bit oversized, can and will contribute to these unsafe
discharges.   Many of the inexpensive (Cabella's etc.)
revolvers that sell for around a $100.00 have cylinder
chambers of varying sizes, check em out before you buy!
When buying a black powder revolver, you generally
get what you pay for.  I have never owned or worked on
an original Colt or Remington that the cylinder chambers
were not sized exactly.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:40:32 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book

At 03:48 PM 6/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey John
>
>I volunteer to transcibe ten (10) pagesof your books if you buy them.=A0
Send me
>some copies if possible.=A0 Find 20 more volunteers and the jobs will be=
 done.
>
>thanks=20
>js
>

JS,

I'll keep it in mind depending on how things work out.

If I get it after transcription I'll post it on one of my web servers and,=
 if
Dean would like, provide him the link for inclusion on his page as well as
post
the address here.

Thanks,

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:36:05 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book

At 05:37 PM 6/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Vic,
>
>I am willing to work out whatever it takes to at least receive a copy of
>these two books, I would buy one if John wanted the other.
>
>Let me know
>Joe
>

Joe,

It is my understanding that since you got back to Vic first you had first
pick.

I am only interested in the finishes journal.  If you would be happy with=
 the
food and booze recipes I will call on Monday and order the other. =20

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
=20
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:29:59 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist

At 02:15 PM 6/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-19 18:14:26 EDT, you write:
>
><< Never having killed a whale I am relying on reading, what I've been=
 sold,
>and
> what I've been told, I know the most desirable oil came from a gland area=
 in
> the head, the old references consider sperm oil and spermaceti the same.=
=A0 So
> either the gland contains both wax and oil or the oil was rendered from=
 the
> wax.=A0=20
>=A0 >>
>
>Wasn't sperm oil only from the Sperm Whale?=A0 The oils from other Species=
 like
>Blues, Norwals, Pilots, & etc were clasified only as "whale oil"?
>
>NM
>=20

YES

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:40:20 -0500
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cheap gun help

I picked up a 50 cal this weekend (I didn't need it,but for $75 I figured I
couldnt go wrong) My problem is the guy who had it left a load in it for
about 2 years, I pulled it and cleaned it. it had Pyrodex in it. Anyone know
if there is a way to be sureany   damage isn't to bad to make a useable gun
out of this?
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:32:48 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Ken Hall)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

LongWalker:

Makes good sense to me - always wondered how the fire/spark got past
the projectile after a uniform sliver of it was removed during the
loading process and why several cylinders would go off as well.

Thanks for your historical perspective.

YMHS,
/Ken


On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:40:55 -0500, you wrote:

>Washtahay-=09

>    I can offer the following, albeit rather anecdotal, information.
>    1.  The revolver I shot the most as a kid-an 1851 Colt Navy brought =
back
>as a souvenir from the War of Northern Aggression.  The only time we had
>chainfires was when the nipples struck on the recoil shield.  Once =
because

>    At one time, I used to check several friends out of an old folks home =
to
>shoot or fish.  Those who were familar with c&b revolvers never =
mentioned
>the use of grease over the ball. =20
>    Keith, in "Sixguns by Keith" mentions chainfires due to loose caps and
>wear in the gun.  (p210).   He also suggests the use of a greased felt =
wad
>under the ball.  No mention of grease over the ball.
>    Based on all of the above, it is my contention that use of a lube over =
the
>ball is not a common period practice, and that if a revolver in good
>condition is properly loaded with an oversized ball, failure to use =
grease
>is not a cause of chainfires.
>
>LongWalker c. du B.
>=09

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:26:45 -0700
From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)

Washtahey the camp,

Sorry about wading in a second time on this topic, one which is
already off the main line of this list, but if chain fires
resulted from flames from the back of the cylinder, wouldn't we
see some fire there, and wouldn't the cap be shot off the
nipple?  There is abundant fire at the front of the cylinder just
after the ball enters the barrel and the charge is squandering
some of it's energy leaking around the gap between the cylinder
face and the barrel entry.   With the hammer holding it down at
ignition, I have never noticed any caps missing from the nipples
when the hammer is lifted again.  Also, caps that will stay on
the nipple during the firing of an adjacent chamber are probably
pretty well seated.  If somebody feels that the cap skirt is the
route of the flame that ignites a chain fire, perhaps they could
help us by showing a cap from a chain fired chamber.  An unfired
cap would be unlikely from a rear ignition, but may well be
possible with a front ignited chain fire.  I readilly admit that
after a chain fire the shooter is probably thinking more about
insurance and fresh underwear than caps, but we could hope.....

As I said before, I have never had (and never by God want to
have!) a chain fire, and I have corn patched from the beginning.
I also use a ball that seals so well into the chamber that it
leaves a tiny lead ring when loadedm -- hard to imagine anything
getting past that.

Let's all pray for the day that we return to pre-1840 topics,
(even though these are lots of fun, and they involve converting
BP into smoke and noise)

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:07:19 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: shooter bags

I am looking for pictures of authentic shooters bags so that I can reproduce
them.  Does anyone have any recommendations?

Red Hawk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:28:17 -0700
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book

John and Joe,

May I suggest, that first, My interests also lie in the information. Since
Joe is first in line so to speak (and I guarantee you will not be
dissapointed with the penmanship or the content), that Joe be allowed first
right of refusal for the purchase. If Joe wishes to defer that honor to
John and still purchase the food recipie book,, so be it. The food book is
of lesser interest to me as well and if all feel the same way, let us
concentrate our efforts on the tradesmans recipies.

We seem to have ready volunteers to help in the transcription (of course
count me among them), a word of caution however as  scanning this text on a
flatbed scanner will ruin the value of the book although  a handheld wand
or digital camera may be possibly used. being that I don't know your
equipment limitations, you tell me.

You men are the best.

Vic


 >At 05:37 PM 6/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Vic,
>>
>>I am willing to work out whatever it takes to at least receive a copy of
>>these two books, I would buy one if John wanted the other.
>>
>>Let me know
>>Joe
>>
>
>Joe,
>
>It is my understanding that since you got back to Vic first you had first
>pick.
>
>I am only interested in the finishes journal.  If you would be happy with the
>food and booze recipes I will call on Monday and order the other.
>
>John...
>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>        >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <[e-mail]>


Vic Nathan Barkin, CGCM
Printing and Reproduction Services Manager
NAU Publication Services
Box 4101, Flagstaff, AZ 86011
520-523-6160
[e-mail]

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #90
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