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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #88 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, June 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 088 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:42:03 EDT From: <JSeminerio@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA) Dear Angela It is always nice to have a sympathetic ear to bend every once in awhile thank you ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:24:13 -0500 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner At 03:38 AM 6/16/98 -0400, capt. rodger lati wrote: >ive used your methods for some 25yrs yes ways of old. im trying to have fun >hear but get poked at by this and that . we are getting out of hand=A0 hear= im >notadvocating . the use of modern products hear. but we do take our modern >medication we dont have scurvy and head lice. paracites in the intestines.= i >think we can reinact and then we can have fun also and not be self concious >when we go to a meet and some finger pointing person say thats not period. >when you take the fun out of somthing with=A0 puting someone down it=A0 is = not fun >anymore. i do the best i can with what i got crome tan bucks and the lot= and >to hell with wtih the finger pointing. i respecet a person that does it the >right way. a purist. they keep it the way it was some one has to rember how >was.its is one of my pet peeves. im not a purist but i injoy going to a= meet >and watch and learn the old ways. do you think im going to throw away my >200.00 leather bucks just because some one says its not period no way. im >keeping them i made them my self me an the dear it took some time . i followed >an lod patern.=A0 though !!!!!!! im 54 yrs young and when i was 10 yrs a >mountian man said get your self some skins and come play.there was no= mention >of crome tan or this and that. or you cant come play if you dont. thats ben= a >few yrs ago. im still playing and maby some day ill have a coveted set of bain >tans and ill make them my self. use it up wear it out >make do or do= without. Capt. Lati, I was trying to keep things a little humorous. To try and follow up on the wry humor in Jon Townes' posting. Too bad you took it personal. Guess I tend= to be more humorless. =20 Scurvy was cured by the 1700's with citrus at sea and rose hips in the mountains, head lice is still a problem and I've had Guardia in my= intestines for years. I don't take modern medications. =20 There was a point to my posting and to his. =20 The point is: this list is a historic discussion group supported by members= of A.M.M. Modern techniques have no place here when reasonable period alternatives exist. It has nothing to do with any public rendezvous, nor is it an attempt to dictate only what is right for everybody. No one is trying to ruin your fun. I and others are trying to keep these discussions on track. = =20 We are all guests of Dean Rudy here, I would like to honor what he has set= out as the purpose and intent of this list. We do try and sort out what may be more correct for those individuals who continually strive to learn more about the old ways. Discussions of irrelevant modern expedients do not further these efforts. expedients which seem to= have their own problems. This is not an extension of the NMLRA, who don't care if you wear naugahyde.= =20 They don't care about preserving history. They do care about nickel and diming the participants to death. I quit over 20 years ago. We are all learning and in this world there will always be accommodations forced upon us. Exactly right is a very elusive concept. We know much more than was known 20 years ago, there is much more yet to learn. We do not= learn how things were if we do not do things the old way. I still have the rotted remains of my first set of commercial tan skins and those of a braintan set as well. Getting ready to make another, my fifth or sixth set.=20 I have never said anything against commercial tan leather, because there was commercial tanning being done in the early nineteenth century. Some commercial tan inevitably made its way to rendezvous and braintan is just not available for everyone.=20 I commented because flocum generated a ridiculous number of postings on a subject totally inappropriate. How tough can it be to mix 3 or 4 simple common ingredients and do it close to right? A simple recipe was nicely presented, promptly ignored, and the flocum discussion went on. In the mountains, if I need to clean my gun, I pull the load, pee down the barrel, rinse with water and swab it out with some sort of dead animal grease.=20 It's what they had to work with, it is still readily available, and it still works. At home I use scalding water and soap and then treat all wood and metal with the period correct product I make and sell. A real soap like Castile, not expensive detergent and water in a plastic bottle. For lube I use sperm oil because I still have a tiny dab from the last of Naval Stores. =20 If I was going to make a gun solvent I'd start with shaved soap, vinegar and alcohol. Never found it necessary, and mostly a damn nuisance unless you carry a tackle box onto the firing line. When shooting for fun I've found a= chewed spit patch swabs the bore well enough to load another shot. =20 >From studying many old guns it seems cleaning them was not a popular hobby.= =20 Probably because they kept them loaded. In the 30,000 or so recipes in my collection (100's of which deal with cleaning things) I do not remember ever seeing a period recipe for gun cleaning solvent. I really don't care what anyone else uses or does for personal amusement. = If it isn't of the period (or the most reasonable alternative to that no longer available) it has no place on this list. For example; sperm oil is not available, jojoba is the best substitute. This is the A.M.M. Historic Discussion List. A little off topic= conversation offends no one. Extensive discussion of modernist thinking I find counter= to our purpose. John... If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john <kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:16:46 -0400 From: DCard@compuserve.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist John, I have always had the utmost respect for your knowledge of the old ways, but my respect has way increased upon discovering that you use bear sperm for patch lube. I don't even want to know how you come by this substance, but suffice it to say that I am impressed! > In silver tip country I load 105 gr. FF under 14 - 00 buck size swan sh= ot > under > a (bear/sperm oiled) patched .69 round ball for wading. Ain't that muc= h > fun to > shoot, up close it never misses. > > John... > > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. > John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:53:10 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: elk antler We carry elk antler Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:33:57 -0700 From: Gary Bell <micropt@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patch lube and cleaner Pendleton, I couldn't have said it better. Actually I didn't even say it as well as you did -- I was the fellow blowing the whistle on peroxide and with the rusting Lyman. I will try to work with just hot water for a spell, and see how that works for keeping the bore 'seasoned' and still clean enough to load gracefully. I too have tried a bunch of recipes, and I don't yet feel I have settled into the right way for me. I promised Hawk Pierce and some others that I would do some experimenting with BP and Pyrodex, and after my original posting where I merely mentioned the P word I got a very good idea of how many folks around here feel very strongly about BP! Thanks for the input, (particularly as I agree so well with you), the whole point of this online community is discussion of mountain man era issues, and I for one find something to learn from virtually every posting. Gary yellow rose/pendleton wrote: > Folks, > Now some of you are going to label me a purist, but here's my two cents > worth on the cleaning of blackpowder guns. Peroxide is very corrosive ! It > is used in some industries to etch metal on purpose. So why in the world > would want to put it down the bore of your prize rifle or smoothbore. There > are many very effective commercial blackpowder solvents, and I have tried > most of them > at one time or another. The Murphy's Oil Soap reciepes the 409 stuff the > windshield washer fluid I've tried it all. Then it occured to me that our > forefathers didn't carry around a bar of lye soap to clean their guns. They > used just plain water, and that is all I have used for the last six years > with very good results.They washed or wiped their guns out with water dried > them well then greased or oiled the bore, and reloaded. The key to any > cleaning method is thoroughly drying the bore after cleaing then using a > good lube to prevent rust from forming. To backtrack for a moment, stop and > think about it would you use peroxide to clean your best castiron skillet ? > If you treat your gun bore the same as you would you best skillet you won't > go wrong. > To the fellow with the Lyman rifle that continued to rust. All gun barrels > are not the same. That is to say some metals are more porous than others. > That is not a knock on Lyman guns. Lyman makes a fine rifle that is > probably one of the best out of the box guns around, but their barrels are > a bit more porous than some others and therefore require a little more > maintence. The bottom line is you have to learn what works best in your > gun. Another tip is two or three days after you have cleaned your gun and > put it away run a patch down the bore just to check it to make sure > everything is up to snuff.In high humidity areas like ours this is a very > good idea. I can't emphasize enough, you have to dry the bore completely ! > Now I fully expect to hear from a whole flock of folks who have used their > favorite concoction for gun cleaning for years and wouldn't change no > matter what, and that is fine I'm not trying to condemn or change anyone's > methods. In my experience when we get away from the ways of our forefathers > we are usually messing up. That's my two cents worth. > > Pendleton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:36:10 -0700 From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum tanning >here's a question for you folks. I've got 4 hides that I'm in the >process of alum tanning. I dehaired them, soaked them in the tanning >solution and now I'm staking and stretching them. The thing that I've >noticed is this. When I dehaired them, ashes weren't doing the job very >well so I switched to lye. Now I notice that the one hide that I >dehaired with ashes alone is staking and stretching much easier than the >3 that had lye added. Any thoughts? > > >Kirk Mill > >(just a pilgrim from PA) Kirk Why use ashes or lye when water alone works fine without the ash or caustic lye. We send out six to eight very soft, fine quality hides a week using NOTHING BUT water and brains in the process. Sure theres more than one way to skin a cat, but as we sit here daily reading about all those ways and all the additional ingreedients we realize there are alot more folks who write books about doing hides than there are folks who have it down to the fine art of producing six to eight quality hides a week. Contact me personally and I will email you our instructions if you are interested. Longtrail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:46:52 -0500 From: Jeff Stoddard <jdsteach@dwave.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #87 Period correctness aside, I had the pleasure of shooting with a friend who uses canolla oil as a patch lube. I was using a borrowed .36 cal. rifle. After 40 plus shots, the ramrod was going down just as easily as the first. Just a drop for each ball on the back side of the loading block is all it took. Also, for the kids who want to follow in the footsteps of the VOYAGEUR, William Durbin has written a pretty good novel called "The Broken Blade" It is a good starter book for getting information on the life of a voyageur. After reading it, I am wanting to do more research. It would make and interesting persona and very appropriate for me here in the Great Lakes area. Thanks to all for your input and humor. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:29:16 -0700 From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner To John Kramer and the list' With respect to the below writings; Due to some strange workings of the computer god, John has attributed the comments of someone else to me. What appears below is not something I wrote. I did respond to what first appears below and my response was similar in thread to what John is saying about the use of modern techniques and such. I use hot water in my barrels when it is available for the same reason that I use hot water to clean my cast iron skillets. I have no proof other than results but it seems that using natural oils and greases in my barrels and cleaning with nothing but water (I agree that cold water would/will work and may be appropreate under some conditions), making sure the barrel is dry and re-greasing afterwards is an effective and authentic way to maintain my muzzleloading fire arms. No one needs do as John and I do. Like he says this is a historical list and I agree that discussions should deal with the historical accuracy of any topic. YMOS Capt. Lahti John Kramer wrote: > At 03:38 AM 6/16/98 -0400, capt. rodger lati wrote: > >ive used your methods for some 25yrs yes ways of old. im trying to have fun > >hear but get poked at by this and that . we are getting out of hand hear im > >notadvocating . the use of modern products hear. but we do take our modern > >medication we dont have scurvy and head lice. paracites in the intestines. i > >think we can reinact and then we can have fun also and not be self concious > >when we go to a meet and some finger pointing person say thats not period. > >when you take the fun out of somthing with puting someone down it is not > fun > >anymore. i do the best i can with what i got crome tan bucks and the lot and > >to hell with wtih the finger pointing. i respecet a person that does it the > >right way. a purist. they keep it the way it was some one has to rember how > >was.its is one of my pet peeves. im not a purist but i injoy going to a meet > >and watch and learn the old ways. do you think im going to throw away my > >200.00 leather bucks just because some one says its not period no way. im > >keeping them i made them my self me an the dear it took some time . i > followed > >an lod patern. though !!!!!!! im 54 yrs young and when i was 10 yrs a > >mountian man said get your self some skins and come play.there was no mention > >of crome tan or this and that. or you cant come play if you dont. thats ben a > >few yrs ago. im still playing and maby some day ill have a coveted set of > bain > >tans and ill make them my self. use it up wear it out >make do or do without. > > Capt. Lati, > > I was trying to keep things a little humorous. To try and follow up on the > wry > humor in Jon Townes' posting. Too bad you took it personal. Guess I tend to > be more humorless. > > Scurvy was cured by the 1700's with citrus at sea and rose hips in the > mountains, head lice is still a problem and I've had Guardia in my intestines > for years. I don't take modern medications. > > There was a point to my posting and to his. > > The point is: this list is a historic discussion group supported by members of > A.M.M. Modern techniques have no place here when reasonable period > alternatives exist. It has nothing to do with any public rendezvous, nor > is it > an attempt to dictate only what is right for everybody. No one is trying to > ruin your fun. I and others are trying to keep these discussions on track. > > We are all guests of Dean Rudy here, I would like to honor what he has set out > as the purpose and intent of this list. > > We do try and sort out what may be more correct for those individuals who > continually strive to learn more about the old ways. Discussions of > irrelevant > modern expedients do not further these efforts. expedients which seem to have > their own problems. > > This is not an extension of the NMLRA, who don't care if you wear naugahyde. > They don't care about preserving history. They do care about nickel and > diming > the participants to death. I quit over 20 years ago. > > We are all learning and in this world there will always be accommodations > forced upon us. Exactly right is a very elusive concept. We know much more > than was known 20 years ago, there is much more yet to learn. We do not learn > how things were if we do not do things the old way. > > I still have the rotted remains of my first set of commercial tan skins and > those of a braintan set as well. Getting ready to make another, my fifth or > sixth set. > > I have never said anything against commercial tan leather, because there was > commercial tanning being done in the early nineteenth century. Some > commercial > tan inevitably made its way to rendezvous and braintan is just not available > for everyone. > > I commented because flocum generated a ridiculous number of postings on a > subject totally inappropriate. How tough can it be to mix 3 or 4 simple > common > ingredients and do it close to right? A simple recipe was nicely presented, > promptly ignored, and the flocum discussion went on. > > In the mountains, if I need to clean my gun, I pull the load, pee down the > barrel, rinse with water and swab it out with some sort of dead animal > grease. > It's what they had to work with, it is still readily available, and it still > works. At home I use scalding water and soap and then treat all wood and > metal > with the period correct product I make and sell. A real soap like Castile, > not > expensive detergent and water in a plastic bottle. For lube I use sperm oil > because I still have a tiny dab from the last of Naval Stores. > > If I was going to make a gun solvent I'd start with shaved soap, vinegar and > alcohol. Never found it necessary, and mostly a damn nuisance unless you > carry > a tackle box onto the firing line. When shooting for fun I've found a chewed > spit patch swabs the bore well enough to load another shot. > > >From studying many old guns it seems cleaning them was not a popular hobby. > Probably because they kept them loaded. In the 30,000 or so recipes in my > collection (100's of which deal with cleaning things) I do not remember ever > seeing a period recipe for gun cleaning solvent. > > I really don't care what anyone else uses or does for personal amusement. If > it isn't of the period (or the most reasonable alternative to that no longer > available) it has no place on this list. For example; sperm oil is not > available, jojoba is the best substitute. > > This is the A.M.M. Historic Discussion List. A little off topic conversation > offends no one. Extensive discussion of modernist thinking I find counter to > our purpose. > > John... > > If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. > john <kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:58:50 -0500 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist At 12:16 AM 6/17/98 -0400, DCard wrote: >John, I have always had the utmost respect for your knowledge >of the old ways, but my respect has way increased upon discovering >that you use bear sperm for patch lube.=A0 I don't even want to know >how you come by this substance, but suffice it to say that I am >impressed! > > >> In silver tip country I load 105 gr. FF under 14 - 00 buck size swan shot >> under >> a (bear/sperm oiled) patched .69 round ball for wading.=A0 Ain't that= much >> fun to >> shoot, up close it never misses. DCard, Read that bear OR sperm oil. Very different. Used the same. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 05:14:31 -0500 (CDT) From: pwjones@onr.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist Is it not possible that John is using a mixture of bear oil and whale oil? Both are available, althought the whale oil is rare and on the far side of expensive. A fairly large quantity was available last year from a collection dating from the 40's or 50's. A number of us purchased a fair quantity, both for display and use. It is a fine oil. Burns clean and is also superior lube. If, however, it is bear sperm, THAT is a collectible worth mentioning. Paul >John, I have always had the utmost respect for your knowledge >of the old ways, but my respect has way increased upon discovering >that you use bear sperm for patch lube. I don't even want to know >how you come by this substance, but suffice it to say that I am >impressed! > > >> In silver tip country I load 105 gr. FF under 14 - 00 buck size swan shot >> under >> a (bear/sperm oiled) patched .69 round ball for wading. Ain't that much >> fun to >> shoot, up close it never misses. >> > >> John... >> >> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >> John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:33:30 -0500 (CDT) From: pwjones@onr.com Subject: MtMan-List: Search for List Member Sorry to impose this on the list, but I need to reach Michael Branson. If you get this message Mike, please e-mail me with your address so we may chat regarding some Morgan prints and other matters. If anyone else has his e-mail address, would appreciate being provided the information. Regards, Paul Paul W. Jones pwjones@onr.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:07:40 -0700 From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner Charlie; You make some good points with ref: to using even cold water to clean a dirty barrel. I live in eastern WA where it is so dry that even sasquatch only pee once a month. I use hot water at home or in the field (in camp) when available because I see treating the inside of the barrel as comparable to how I believe cast iron skillets should be treated. Pour hot water down the barrel and scrub with linen tow on a tow worm, dry with a fresh ball of tow on the worm and liberally lube with grease as in rendered animal fat. Perhaps because of our dry climate I have been lucky in not having the oxidization that might occur in a damper climate if warmer than ambient temp water is used. In any case thorough drying and thorough lubrication is the key for me and is how I believe it was done in the 'era'. No, I do not think that a frontiersman of old would have make a fire in hostile country just to unfoul a fouled gun! He probably would have done as John Kramer says he does and pull the load, (if possible) and just pee down the barrel, wipe it dry and reload. I have never done that myself but I would not hesitate to do so if the need were there. Urine is a lost less corrosive than some of the chemicals that have been advocated for barrel cleaning, (as long as it is not left in too long). I have been known to spit down the barrel of a loaded but not primed gun when loading was getting tough. I also put a lip lock on the barrel and blow through the touch hole after each shot to eliminate sparks, reduce fouling and to assure myself that the touch hole is clear. I know this is not permitted by the NMLRA but that's OK cause there are a lot if things I and NMLRA don't agree on. I also do not advocate any one copy my methods if they are not comfortable with how I do things. And I do not care what any one else does as long as they keep their gun pointed in a safe direction. Hope that cleans things up a mite. YMOS Capt. Lahti Charlie P. Webb wrote: > I have some questions, and a few thoughts. > Why do you use hot water to clean your firearm? > Do you believe that every time a woodsman wanted > to clean his fire arm, he stopped built a fire and heated > water? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:48:56 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum tanning I anot sure about what the ashes are doing in comparison to the lye. Both assist with the break down of the proteins that hold the hair folicle. They are "basic" a Ph of 10. The lye is a strong base. Hides will puff up when introduced to a strong base. You MUST nuturalize them or if exposed to any moisture in the future, they may fall apart. Most types of acids will nuturalize them. In our commercial tannery we use Amonium Sulfate. It is nothing more than fertilizer. The hide can just be washed repeatly with soap and water too. just takes longer. Just some thoughts Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:35:57 -0700 From: Chris Sega <chrissega1@powernet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner Just a note on the properties of Hydrogen Peroxide. From my safety training for work at a surface mine back when I was just out of high school, we were informed that HP in concentrations above 5 or 10 percent will cause organic matter to combust after a period of time related to concentration. Eg. A 10 percent solution dripped on your leather shoe at the start of your shift will burst into flame just as you start filling your car with Gasoline at lunch. Higher Concentrations will simply melt through everything up to the chemical resistant sole of your boot. What you buy at the store is 3% and safe, But still really bad stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:26:53 -0500 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner This is a resend of a message I posted earlier today which hasn't shown up= on the list. Sorry if you get two. At 08:29 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >To John Kramer and the list' >With respect to the below writings; >Due to some strange workings of the computer god, John has attributed the comments >of someone else to me. Capt. Lahti, Sorry, I picked up the name from the bottom of the posting quoted.=A0 Looked like the writers sig.=A0 I see now it was even spelled wrong. On looking back at the headers I see the post I was responding to came from ITWHEELER on 6/16/98. My mistake. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:08:53 -0600 From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milton Sublette's writings At 07:13 PM 6/16/98 -0500, Matt wrote: > >I belive the Sublette papers are on microfilm just as the AM. FUR CO. and the >Robert Campbell papers are. They are a costly set. The Campbell papers >alone are about $3000, I think. If any library has them in Utah it would be >Brigham Young University. They have an extensive fur trade collection: some >of the W. Ferris stuff, Missouri papers on film, the Campbell collection on >film, etc. Give em a call or contact Fred Gownas at the history department >there. > >Matt Despain > Hi, There's a set of microfilms at the U of Ut, that includes the Chouteau papers, the Am Fur Papers, and the Campbell papers, but no Sublette papers. It's the University Publications set described at http://www.us.net/upa/guides/west.htm (sure wish I could afford a set of those!). Does anyone else publish microfilms of other MHS fur trade manuscripts? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:20:02 -0700 From: Gary Bell <micropt@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum tanning I wasn't the one who posted on this topic, but I would certainly like to learn about a water and brains method! Clearly there have been a whole mess of postings on these topics recently, but your description appeals to me as it sounds like the sort of approach used before fancy white man's ways. Gary Bell Longtrail wrote: > >here's a question for you folks. I've got 4 hides that I'm in the > >process of alum tanning. I dehaired them, soaked them in the tanning > >solution and now I'm staking and stretching them. The thing that I've > >noticed is this. When I dehaired them, ashes weren't doing the job very > >well so I switched to lye. Now I notice that the one hide that I > >dehaired with ashes alone is staking and stretching much easier than the > >3 that had lye added. Any thoughts? > > > > > >Kirk Mill > > > >(just a pilgrim from PA) > > Kirk > Why use ashes or lye when water alone works fine without the ash or caustic > lye. > We send out six to eight very soft, fine quality hides a week using NOTHING > BUT water and brains in the process. Sure theres more than one way to > skin a cat, but as we sit here daily reading about all those ways and all > the additional ingreedients we realize there are alot more folks who write > books about doing hides than there are folks who have it down to the fine > art of producing six to eight quality hides a week. > Contact me personally and I will email you our instructions if you are > interested. Longtrail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:56:58 -0500 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner At 11:35 PM 6/16/98 -0700, you wrote: >Just a note on the properties of Hydrogen Peroxide.=A0 From my safety= training for >work at a surface mine back when I was just out of high school, we were informed >that=A0 HP in concentrations above 5 or 10 percent will cause organic= matter to >combust after a period of time related to concentration.=A0 Eg.=A0 A 10= percent >solution dripped on your leather shoe at the start of your shift will burst into >flame just as you start filling your car with Gasoline at lunch.=A0 Higher >Concentrations will simply melt through everything up to the chemical resistant >sole of your boot.=A0 What you buy at the store is 3% and safe, But still really bad >stuff. >=20 I can only date Hydrogen Peroxide back to about 1870. John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 =20 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< <<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/> mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>=20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:45:18 EDT From: <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner In a message dated 98-06-17 01:24:53 EDT, you write: << Why do you use hot water to clean your firearm? Because both guys who have built rifles for me said to. Ok -- that was kind of a "wise guy" answer, but they've both explained to me that by using hot water -- hot enough to get the barrel to the point it's hard to hang on to -- helps dry the barrel quicker meaning less chance of moisture left in the barrel when oiling/greasing the bore. Sure, you CAN use moisture displacing lubes like RIG, WD-40, etc, etc, but since we're so concerned what is historicaly correct, that type chemical would be inappropriate. True -- rapid drying in a hot barrel DOES lead to minor oxidation/rust, but the immediate oil/grease patch will take care of it. Moisture trapped in the barrel over a long period of time can lead to a more serious oxidation/rust problem, so it's important to have the barrel totaly dry before oiling or greasing the bore. < Do you believe that every time a woodsman wanted to clean his fire arm, he stopped built a fire and heated water? Of course not! He probably didn't even consider hot water for cleaning his rifle/gun. Cold water worked -- & still does. If I have to clean my rifle, tradegun, pistol, & the wife's rifle & pistol, my hot water is cold before I'm done. I just try to start with a different weapon each time I actualy go to the botheration to start with hot water. I think while the water is still hot, it seems to clean slightly faster, but not realy worth the effort for that reason alone. < One that has lived long and works well for target shooting is Moose Milk, it is very inexpensive and when your whole family shoots one needs to get by as economically as he can. Moose milk, I make itup in a twenty four ounce bottle, ( because that is what I have) one ounce of water soluble oil to twenty ounces of ambient water. then to the whole mixture add two ounces of Murphy's Oil Soap, (soap, not a detergent!) Shake it up and use it. Huh? & I got jumped on about Mac's 13?????? Basicaly the same stuff 'cept it's premixed & ready to use. You give the NAPA part number for WSO -- if you check the MSDS for Mac's /NAPA 13 -- it's 2 primary ingredients are WSO & water. At least you didn't call me a "heritic" for using automotive chemicals in my guns. < Hydrogen Peroxide is an oxygenator that when used as a gun cleaner causes instant oxidation on any part of the un browned barrel it touches, meaning in this case the barrels bore. Probably the most corrosive "non-acid" for iron or steel besides chlorine. Another quirk about Hydrogen Peroxide -- it MUST be kept out of direct sunlight or it breaks down to water. If you store it in a clear instead of brown bottle, it'll go "flat" in a mater of days, so you're realy back to using a water based cleaner again. You mention using 'peroxide for "aging" -- have you tired lemon or tomato juice? < I have no idea or intention that what I have written here should change what anyone is presently doing, I simply would like for you to think about it, possibly try it, if you are totally happy with your present methods fine, shoot center and have fun! Any cleaning method is far better than not cleaning at all. The quality of many of todays replicas will probably allow them to be around and useable long after we'ins has gone under. Well put. That was my intention when I wrote about Mac's 13. Try it if you want to, but not just because I use it. It may not even work for you, & it it doesn't, at $1.89 a bottle you're not out much. I've tried various concoctions labeled "Moose Milk" that didn't work for me -- maybe climate had something to do with it. Your version with the oil soap just might work here. I was totaly put out by the reaction I got --- I was trying to be helpful with a tip that works for me. I thought the burning at the stake was a bit much -- especialy coming from someone advocating the peroxide mix. < The water soluble oil is actually very similar to some of the available lubricants used thru the mid 1700's through the 1860's.>> Someone mentioned jojoba oil as a substitute for sperm oil. I begged & borrowed a few drops of sperm oil once for my flint lock ---- excelent stuff, but awfully hard to find. Let's face it -- some of the stuff that was arround in the 1700 - 1800's ain't available any more -- so what do we do? Substitute with the closest we can find like WSO & jojoba or go with stuff that's still available that doesn't work as well? Maybe we should start a new thread concerning lock lubricants -- what's a good period lock lube besides sperm oil? I've been using the non-period stuff like Hopies gun oil, Burchwood Casey's, even Slick 50 & motor oil -- it all works, but not like sperm oil. I'm presently having a new rifle built that will be a Fredrick Sell reproduction & with it, I'd like to keep it's accouterments as historicaly accurate as possible -- meaning tallow for patch lube instead of the Mac's I use in most of my rifles -- among other things. NM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:42:31 -0700 From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum tanning Gary, If you decide to give it a try and have any questions, feel free to write and ask. Longtrail O Sundog Traders O Joseph Dinsmore, M.T. & Victoria Longtrail D. POB 182 Winnett, Montana 59087 406-429-7828 or ezra@midrivers.com Brain Tanning Less Instruction With More Results by Joseph Dinsmore & Victoria Longtrail D. !. Flesh the deer hide. All you are concerned with is getting the meat and fat off. Then place the hide in water and soak over night. Make sure the hide is completely soaked. ( the greener the hide the easier to dehair) 2. Dehairing : Take the hide out of the water and place it over a beam and dehair. The objective here is to get the brown layer (epidermis) off. Keep in mind the fresher the hide the easier it is to dehair. If you are using a "flint" or dried hide with the hair still on, soak it overnight and flesh it again and you will notice the hide whitening out as you flesh. When done, throw it back in the water overnight. It soaks much faster. Dehair the next day. 3. This is what I call pre-braining. Its better to pre-brain the hide after you dehair while the hide is still pliable rather than letting it go to rawhide. After you de-hair the hide put the hide in either an old brain solution or a new one. If it goes to rawhide, soak overnight in cold water and then stretch by hand. You will see the hide whitening out (not totally). The objective here is to open the pores ( don't work all day it only takes a couple of minutes) A metal strapping band ( the kind used to bundle wood with) works the best for me. You can soak the hide in the brain solution for as little as twenty minutes or over night. I prefer over night. Brain solution recipe is at the end of the article. 4. After pre-braining take the hide and hang it out to dry. Its not necessary to wring out the hide Don't fold the hide on itself, prop it open with sticks or whatever, or hang it straignt up and down. 5. Soak the dried hide in COLD water over night. Lace the hide on a frame, this is the pre-stretching phase. ( I emphasize cold water because the hide is plyable enough to put on the frame and whiten out.) Before I begin staking the hide, I sew all the holes. I do it at this point because then there is no pucker, I use artificial sinew (personal preference). All you are trying to do is whiten the hide out by staking it. The weather dictates how often the hide needs to be staked (remember, your not trying to soften it your just trying to whiten it). In recent experiments it seems to stake out better when working side to side rather than up and down. You will notice that when staking the hide, it sometimes starts to soften up, if you like, keep working it, I don't. 6. Pre-smoking. After the hide is whitened and dried out, smoke it. If you think about it, if a white buckskin is smoked and gets wet, it softens back up with very little work. Why can't you do it a pre-stretched hide! I smoke the hide for three hours in a smoke house. (its nothing more than a box made of four sheets of 4X8 plywood and a roof.) I hang my hides horizontal about three foot from my smoke pot. The thing to keep in mind is don't bake the hides. Keep a warm smoke (punky cedar is in my experience, the best wood to use but you can use any kind of punky wood.) 7. After smoking, put the hide back in the brain solution. I leave the hide in it for thirty minutes to an hour. Take it out and rub it over the band (I do this to make sure that there are no hard spots in the hide, if there are hard spots, then soak it a bit longer.) Put it back in the brain solution, you can either leave it for three hours or over night. 8. Take the hide out of the solution, it is your choice of either putting it through clothes wringer which is what I use, or wringing it out in any method you choose. At this point I most often lace the hide onto the frame and work it soft and dry. Usually the hips, rump and neck are the last to dry. Don't stop working on the hide untill those spots are dry and softened or they will harden in the middle. If at any time you have to stop working on the hide, you can freeze it wrapped in a plastic bag until you can get back to it. It requires you to be lazy. Not real lazy. It IS possible to overwork the hide. Brain Solution Recipe: One cow brain, two gallons of water. Make it look like a weak campbells tomato soup but don't eat it. Heat the solution until warm, NOT hot. The beauty of this pre-smoking method is that you can tan more hides with one cow brain. You will notice if you use this same solution (add more water when needed) the hides will get easier and easier to sofen out and the solution smells more like smoke than brains. Sometimes I have to add another cow brain depending on how much additional water I have added. I have found that rain water works best when making the brain solution. Any kind of chemical in the water, such as chlorine seems to have an adverse effect. I have done as many as twenty-two to twenty-four hides with two cow brains. Feel free to call or e-mail with any questions you may have. ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #88 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.