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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #65 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, May 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 065 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:42:26 -0500 From: "Calamity Jane" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch Howdy Fellers! If'n you truly are a trying to catch a live Sasquatch let me tell you a little trick I learnt down on the Brazos of all places. What you need is some female Sasquatch lure! Just lay a trail from one of their waterin' holes to where you have built a trap. Actually, if'n you just leave the stopper outta' the bottle they just about follow you dang near anywhere. Now, I grant you this lure is a mite hard to come by since it contains Sasquatch pheramones. I had a lotta time to think this out drivin' them mules north - nottin more borin' than starin at the south end of a north-bound mule for hundreds of miles! What with all them green hides in the back of the wagon a Sasquatch wouldn't come any closer than the Black Hills are from Nogales. Panther Pete offered to catch me a female Sasquatch ifin' I'd give him a jug of corn squeezins I got off some sod busters up on the Missouri. I didn't ask him the particulars as I'm not one to pry into a feller's private life, but he did catch me one. She gave me the first pheramones and told me how to make more - a little like makin' sourdough bread. It would've been a lot easier to get more if she'a come with me, but she wouldn't let ole' Pete outta her sight. Far as I know they're still livin' in the caves down near Del Rio. Nuf Said. Calamity Jane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:03:53 -0500 From: "YellowFeather" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps In response to Gary's comments about inplying that we wus into the Kickapoo Joy juice. We wus drinkin a concoction of mine that I loveingly call Lizard juice in honor of the NW territory men! Besides, our consumtion of spirits had nothing to do with our trappin a sasquatch. I saw a special on the Learnin Channel on sasquatch in the Louisiana swamps and thought we might git into National Geographiks or in the National Inquisitor as the first to captur a real live breathin sasquatch. But alas, those NW men have already done it and worst yet they have them doing chores and such! Thanks for the tip about the pink though. We was told thet they loved pink noggies but maybe it is just some allurin smell they have instead. YOS, Ken YellowFeather > From: Gary Bell <micropt@gte.net> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps > Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 11:54 AM > > Hmmmm, it appears that Hawk and Yellow Feather have been getting into the > Kickapoo Joy Juice again. Everybody knows that Sasquatch don't give a hoot > for pink! > > Gary > > Ken YellowFeather wrote: > > > > > > > Hello the list, > > > Hawk and I are debating which traps will work better for trapping a > > > sasquatch. # 55 beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We > > > already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will be > > > greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please! > > > Your most obt. servants, > > > Messrs. Hawk & YellowFeather ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:41:03 -0700 From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7AB9.3C121B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeller ole Roger is right that old sasquatch woman finally caught me and made me marry her and thats why I haven't been back over the mountains lately. She makes one helluva woman. She can chop a cord of wood in no time start fires real good and the only thing I have to do know is teach her not to blow the fire so close, the hair smell real bad when lit. I always thought hairy women were gross but I was wrong she give you warmth in the winter and her being so big shade in the summer. Later Jon T - ---------- : From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps : Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 12:10 PM : : Messers. le Hawk and Yellow Feather, : Boys am I glad you wrote and asked first! I only hope I truely have caught : you in time! : : The "Hariy Lizards" been trapping sasquatch up here in the Pacific NW for : years and we got it down to a science. We don't use leg hold traps or neck : snares for obvious reasons that I will go into later. But suffice it to say : that a live sasquatch is more valuable to use than a dead or damaged one. I : want to assure you that this is the truth and Gaud aufal serious. So pay : attention! : : Most folks who've never been here think we live in a forest of tall trees : and grassy glades but not so. We live in the northern corner of the Great : American Desert and fire wood is hard to come by, also long poles, which are : neccessary if you want to trap a sasquatch live which we do. We borrow 4 of : Crazy Lindseys largest teepee poles and set them up on the traping ground : with the same tech. you would use to do a Blackfoot or Yakama set. We then : borrow the largest landing net ( like we used to let the Jarheads practice : scramling up and down the side of our LKA's in and out of the Mick6's and : Mick8's) that we can find. This net is rigged horizontally inside the frame : of 4 poles about 20' up with a simple release mechanism that can be triped : from a remote location. By remote, I simply mean as gal dang far as you can : get from the trap and still see it. Thats not a big problem here in Eastern : WA since we generally can see for close to a hundred miles in almost any : direction and YOU DON'T WANT TO BE CLOSE TO THE TRAP WHEN IT'S SPRUNG! Lots : of good "Lizards" gone under over the years before we learned to stay back. : Used to be a big outfit, only 10/11 of us left. : : We like to use hand layed hemp line or Linen line if available for all the : rappings, hitches and release lines, in 3/4" or larger for obvious reasons. : I say 'line' instead of rope' cause in my Bos'in's locker lines were made of : natural or sinthetic fibers and rope was make of steel or a combination of : steel and nat. fiber. : : Now to the bait! We set up the pine board knockdown bed I made for my wife : and cover the ticking with several Playboy Centerfolds. This is ofcourse set : up centered under the landing net/cargo net. We've never figured out what to : use for scent so what we do is have some pilgrim (little case) beat his : indian drum in a poor imitation of real Indian Druming. We use the newest : guy in the "Hairy Lizards" kind of as a last test to see if he will servive : I mean pass the initiation cerimony and actually get his "Lizard". : : When his Gaud Offle drumming has got the attention of a sasquatch and : brought it to the trap, we wait until the critter is full on the bed and : then we spring the trap. You erstwhile gentelmen didn't say why you wanted : to trap a sasquatch. I can only assume it is for the same reason that we : trap em. : : We trap them to fetch and carry for us, plain and simple! We used to take : our wives with us until they figured out that the only reason we wanted them : along was to fetch wood and water into camp. It is real dry over here in E : WA and every one has built theirhose right along what few water courses : there are. So if we want to camp primitive on public land we find ouselves a : long way from water. The other problem is fire wood. Nothing grows over here : but sage brush and cheat grass. Cheat grass burns so fast that it's hard to : make a cup of tea and burning sage brush reminds us of what our 6th grade : room smelt like in the winter after Taos had pee'ed on the radiator that : fall. Not pleasent. : : So yes, you guessed it, we catch and train a sasquatch to fetch and carry. : Low Number Joe tryed to train one for other duties but he's not with us any : more. That was a real bad idea so don't try it, no matter how long you are : out. After the sasquatch gets wise to us and quits or runs off we usually : can get a few more nights out by burning the four poles we got from "Crazy", : afterall he lives on the wet side and can get more. : : Well this is as serious an answer as your likely to get on the subject and I : hope it was of help. Boy I love this List! Oh, yea, Jon Town can coroberate : all I'm telling you cause he used to come over here and play with us but he : wouldn't listen when we told him not to try to teach the sasqatch how to : perform those 'other' services I alluded to. He don't come over here any : more. Last time I saw him he was headed over Snoqualmy Pass with a lady : sasquatch close on his heels. : : Have fun with your new knowledge, play safe and have fun. : : YMOS : "Capt." Lahti : -----Original Message----- : From: Ken YellowFeather <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> : To: Mtn. Man <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> : Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 7:03 AM : Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: traps : : : > : >> : >> Hello the list, : >> Hawk and I are debating which traps will work better for trapping a : >> sasquatch. # 55 beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We : >> already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will be : >> greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please! : >> Your most obt. servants, : >> Messrs. Hawk & YellowFeather : > : - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7AB9.3C121B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Yeller ole Roger is right that old = sasquatch woman finally caught me and made me marry her and thats why I = haven't been back over the mountains lately. She makes one helluva = woman. She can chop a cord of wood in no time start fires real = good and the only thing I have to do know is teach her not to blow the = fire so close, the hair smell real bad when lit. I always thought = hairy women were gross but I was wrong she give you warmth in the winter = and her being so big shade in the summer. Later Jon T = ---------- : From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps : Date: = Friday, May 08, 1998 12:10 PM : : Messers. le Hawk and Yellow = Feather, : Boys am I glad you wrote and asked first! I only hope I = truely have caught : you in time! : : The "Hariy = Lizards" been trapping sasquatch up here in the Pacific NW for : = years and we got it down to a science. We don't use leg hold traps or = neck : snares for obvious reasons that I will go into later. But = suffice it to say : that a live sasquatch is more valuable to use = than a dead or damaged one. I : want to assure you that this is the = truth and Gaud aufal serious. So pay : attention! : : Most = folks who've never been here think we live in a forest of tall = trees : and grassy glades but not so. We live in the northern corner = of the Great : American Desert and fire wood is hard to come by, also = long poles, which are : neccessary if you want to trap a sasquatch = live which we do. We borrow 4 of : Crazy Lindseys largest teepee = poles and set them up on the traping ground : with the same tech. you = would use to do a Blackfoot or Yakama set. We then : borrow the = largest landing net ( like we used to let the Jarheads practice : = scramling up and down the side of our LKA's in and out of the Mick6's = and : Mick8's) that we can find. This net is rigged horizontally = inside the frame : of 4 poles about 20' up with a simple release = mechanism that can be triped : from a remote location. By remote, I = simply mean as gal dang far as you can : get from the trap and still = see it. Thats not a big problem here in Eastern : WA since we = generally can see for close to a hundred miles in almost any : = direction and YOU DON'T WANT TO BE CLOSE TO THE TRAP WHEN IT'S SPRUNG! = Lots : of good "Lizards" gone under over the years before = we learned to stay back. : Used to be a big outfit, only 10/11 of us = left. : : We like to use hand layed hemp line or Linen line if = available for all the : rappings, hitches and release lines, in = 3/4" or larger for obvious reasons. : I say 'line' instead of = rope' cause in my Bos'in's locker lines were made of : natural or = sinthetic fibers and rope was make of steel or a combination of : = steel and nat. fiber. : : Now to the bait! We set up the pine = board knockdown bed I made for my wife : and cover the ticking with = several Playboy Centerfolds. This is ofcourse set : up centered under = the landing net/cargo net. We've never figured out what to : use for = scent so what we do is have some pilgrim (little case) beat his : = indian drum in a poor imitation of real Indian Druming. We use the = newest : guy in the "Hairy Lizards" kind of as a last test = to see if he will servive : I mean pass the initiation cerimony and = actually get his "Lizard". : : When his Gaud Offle = drumming has got the attention of a sasquatch and : brought it to the = trap, we wait until the critter is full on the bed and : then we = spring the trap. You erstwhile gentelmen didn't say why you wanted : = to trap a sasquatch. I can only assume it is for the same reason that = we : trap em. : : We trap them to fetch and carry for us, = plain and simple! We used to take : our wives with us until they = figured out that the only reason we wanted them : along was to fetch = wood and water into camp. It is real dry over here in E : WA and = every one has built theirhose right along what few water courses : = there are. So if we want to camp primitive on public land we find = ouselves a : long way from water. The other problem is fire wood. = Nothing grows over here : but sage brush and cheat grass. Cheat grass = burns so fast that it's hard to : make a cup of tea and burning sage = brush reminds us of what our 6th grade : room smelt like in the = winter after Taos had pee'ed on the radiator that : fall. Not = pleasent. : : So yes, you guessed it, we catch and train a = sasquatch to fetch and carry. : Low Number Joe tryed to train one for = other duties but he's not with us any : more. That was a real bad = idea so don't try it, no matter how long you are : out. After the = sasquatch gets wise to us and quits or runs off we usually : can get = a few more nights out by burning the four poles we got from = "Crazy", : afterall he lives on the wet side and can get = more. : : Well this is as serious an answer as your likely to get = on the subject and I : hope it was of help. Boy I love this List! Oh, = yea, Jon Town can coroberate : all I'm telling you cause he used to = come over here and play with us but he : wouldn't listen when we told = him not to try to teach the sasqatch how to : perform those 'other' = services I alluded to. He don't come over here any : more. Last time = I saw him he was headed over Snoqualmy Pass with a lady : sasquatch = close on his heels. : : Have fun with your new knowledge, play = safe and have fun. : : YMOS : "Capt." Lahti : = - -----Original Message----- : From: Ken YellowFeather <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> : To: Mtn. Man <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> : Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 7:03 AM : = Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: traps : : : > : >> : = >> Hello the list, : >> Hawk and I are debating which = traps will work better for trapping a : >> sasquatch. # 55 = beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We : >> = already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will = be : >> greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please! : = >> Your most obt. servants, : >> Messrs. Hawk & = YellowFeather : > : </body></h= tml> - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7AB9.3C121B80-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:25:10 -0700 From: Carpenter Family <kcarpenter@bigbear.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gourd seeds JON P TOWNS wrote: > > I have some canteen gourd seeds Dear Jon and the list: I have a canteen quality gourd that I haven't developed into a canteen as yet. It still contains the seeds. I got this gourd at rondyvoo maybe five years ago. Do you thinks the seeds will grow and if so, how do I use them? I don't have a green thumb. Most everything I try to grow, dies. Ken C (Carp) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:06:53 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Francis Parkman and "The Oregon Trail" You are right about Parkman's book. It is outstanding--you just can't put it down. My copy is a 1910 edition that I found for $2.00 in a used bookstore and it is one of the prizes in my library. Parkman was a recent college graduate in 1846 and went west with his good friend Quincy Adams Shaw in part as an adventure in its own right, but also to prepare himself for a career as a writer. Do not pass up the opportunity to acquire a copy for yourself. Lanney Ratcliff - -----Original Message----- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com> Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 11:41 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Francis Parkman and "The Oregon Trail" >Hello the List, >I'm just about finished reading a 1923 edition of Parkman's "The Oregon Trail" >that I picked up in an antique store. I mention this because the book was >apparently written from a diary about a hunting trip in the spring of >1846....and had little, or nothing to do about the Oregon Trail. >For those that have not read the book, Parkman and his companion Shaw, left >St. Louis on the 28th of April 1846, ...."on a tour of curiosity and >amusement to the Rocky Mountains." He, Parkman, gives an outstanding account >of what it was like to travel in the country, hunt buffalo, meet some great >"trappers", and live with the Indians. The book has several illustrations by >Frederic Remington and I at times, had trouble putting the book down.....good >reading for folks like us! > >I'm headed to Charlotte, NC for a couple weeks of flight training.... anything >happen there I should know about? And what should a pilot/mountianman check >out while I'm in the neighborhood.....thanks. > >Steve > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:16:20 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch I know it is all in fun, and I'm worse than most in that regard, but I will be glad when somebody finally catches a damn sasquatch. Lanney Ratcliff - -----Original Message----- From: Calamity Jane <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> To: Mtn. Man <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 11:42 PM Subject: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch >Howdy Fellers! > If'n you truly are a trying to catch a live Sasquatch let me tell you a >little trick I learnt down on the Brazos of all places. What you need is >some female Sasquatch lure! Just lay a trail from one of their waterin' >holes to where you have built a trap. Actually, if'n you just leave the >stopper outta' the bottle they just about follow you dang near anywhere. >Now, I grant you this lure is a mite hard to come by since it contains >Sasquatch pheramones. I had a lotta time to think this out drivin' them >mules north - nottin more borin' than starin at the south end of a >north-bound mule for hundreds of miles! >What with all them green hides in the back of the wagon a Sasquatch >wouldn't come any closer than the Black Hills are from Nogales. > Panther Pete offered to catch me a female Sasquatch ifin' I'd give him a >jug of corn squeezins I got off some sod busters up on the Missouri. I >didn't ask him the particulars as I'm not one to pry into a feller's >private life, but he did catch me one. She gave me the first pheramones >and told me how to make more - a little like makin' sourdough bread. It >would've been a lot easier to get more if she'a come with me, but she >wouldn't let ole' Pete outta her sight. Far as I know they're still livin' >in the caves down near Del Rio. Nuf Said. > Calamity Jane > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:16:33 -0500 From: "Michael Branson" <mikebransn@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Calico in Fur trade You do that well Clay. M. Branson - -----Original Message----- From: Clay Landry <Landry@wtp.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 2:19 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Calico in Fur trade >At 04:57 PM 5/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >Yes calico was available, but it was >>very scarce and very expensive during the fur trade period. > >------------------------ > >Sorry-but my research indicates that Calico was quite readily available and >quite cheap in the Rocky Mountains when compared to other cloth during the >1800-1850 period. From Alexander Henry, Lewis & Clark to later years of Fort >Union- just about all of the orignal lists of trade goods and inventories >that I have seen contain references to either calico cloth or shirts. Here >are a few examples; > >Pacific Fur Company-Fort Astoria October 1813: 46 yards of printed calico @ >26 cents per yard, 12 pieces India calico, per piece of 4 1/2 yards 81 1/2 >cents per yard, cotton check was $1.46 per yard. > >Alexander Henry-1811-List of trade goods includes; 7 1/2 yards fine Calicoe, >4 1/2 yards linnen, 4 yds checked Cotton cloth. The Calico was valued at "3 >skins" per yard while the cotton check was "4 skins" per yard. His list also >included "4 fine cotton shirts, 8 Common cotton shirts, and 3 calico shirts". > >Lewis and Clark- their list of "Indian Presents" includes "48 Calico Ruffled >Shirts" while the expedtion members had "30 Priv Linnen Shirts" . > >Peter Skene Ogden-"Account of Sundries Supplied the Snake Expedition Outfit >1826" in the section on "Country made articles" is "11 Ell wide Indian >Shirts Calico". The list for the 1827 Snake river country Expedition >contains the same entry. Like the Lewis and Clark information , it seems >that calico was such a cheap cloth that it was used as Indian gifts! > >William Ashley- List of goods to be taken to Smith Jackson and Sublette at >the 1827 Rendezvous, includes several references to cloth, " domestic cotton >at one dollar and twenty five cents per yard, grey cloth at common quality >at five dollars per yard, flannels common quality at one dollar fifty cents >per yard, callicoes assorted at one dollar per yard,". Keep in mind that >these prices were "mountain prices to SJS, to be paid in Beaver, yet on a >comparison basis "callicoes" were the cheapest. > >Robert Campbell- in his accounts of items taken to the 1832 Pierre's hole >Rendezvous, a calico shirt sold for $1.25 each while yellow flannel sold for >$2.50 each, and check shirts for 75 cents. > >Fort Union- This American Fur company post located ate the junction of the >Yellowstone and Missouri rivers left us some very detailed records, these >include, in 1834, "fancy calico & bright colored shirts-260", other years >inventories contain similar numbers of calico shirts. > >Bents Fort-the 1838 inventory contains "97 3/4 yards Fancy Calico at 22 >cents a yard, and "28 yards Fancy Calico at 23 cents per yard". On this same >list the "cotton check shirts" were $7 each and the "Fancy calico" were >$1.25 each. > >Nathaniel Weyth and Fort Hall- "Invoice of Goods Remaining at Fort Hall in >store uncashed" August 1834. Includes " 41 1/2 yards of check at 12 1/2 >cents per yd, 28 yds light calico at 20 cents per yd, 22 yds blue cloth at >$2.25 per yd, and 13 3/4 yds white domestic 7 1/2 cents, Also 24 yds scarlet >cloth at $1.65 yd. >In the years from 1834 to 1837 the Fort Hall ledgers include numerous >purchases of calico shirts by the trappers operating out of this post. >Calico, Gingham, and cotton shirts all sold for $3 each, while flannel >shirts were $4. In 1836 the Tailors shop at the Fort started making shirts, >many of them calico, they sold for $3. > >In the Charles Hanson article on Rendezvous trade goods, he shows that the >1836 Rendezvous received lots of ready made shirts including; 236 flannel >shirts, 157 calico shirts, 129 checked, 51 plaid, 12 plain and 7 pink! > >On that note I'll quit! > >Clay Landry >P.O. Box 1033 >Columbus MT 59019 >-------------- > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:39:52 -0500 From: "Michael Branson" <mikebransn@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban You are right sir The 1996 NMLRA Western National Rendezvous went with a fire ban for all of the Rendezvous here in Colorado. It was a big inconvenience but we made do. Finally after three days of rain and watching half the camp leave the forest service in their wisdom allowed us to have cooking fires but they still made us douse them after every meal. This is the main reason the NMLRA has gone to a private ranch for their Western Rendezvous for 1997-98. With all of the infighting of the last three years the NMLRA Western Rendezvous has shrunk to a maneagble size of about 100-150 camps and so they have gone back to using private land. In 1980, We held the NAPR/NMLRA Western National Rendezvous on a private ranch near La Veta Colorado and the entire state of Colorado was under a fire ban during July. The rangers (crow)came into our camp saw our fire fighting equipment used some common sense and left us alone. The rangers (crow) in those days seemed to be more concerned about our needs then. The rangers today (bugs boys) just sort of seem to be concerned with meeting some obscure beauracrats(chief of the bugs boys) idea of what seems right. We little folks seem to be getting swept under the carpet. Seems some ranchers have a little more common sense about some things than the Govt employees. In 25 years of tipi camping I have never seen a forest fire that was started by good folks who shoot flintlocks or wear leather or do any of the other peculiar things identified with such as those who read this list. Mike Branson I do firmly believe that the rich and powerful along with the sierra club and all the others of that crowd have forgotten the meaning of the phrase "multiple use management". Some day we will all have to dress in cute little spandex shorts and tops and ride the highways on bicyles just to see the High lonesome. Between the rich celebrities and the politicians and the rich tree huggers posting it all we ordinary folks won't be able to camp up there at all. Sorry, I rambled too long. M. Branson - -----Original Message----- From: Scott Singer - "Spinner" <wwwrendezvous@geocities.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 11:40 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:39:38 EDT From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Hello the net! Sorry, but I am bringing out another question here. It seems I have a real talent to get some almost too lively discussion going on the list, but I think I'm safe this time. My wife teaches school, and is always trying to do projects based on 18th and 19th century tools and technology. Does any body have any old recepies for adhesives or know some prime ingredients used in them? She has recepies for making soaps, dies, and other things, but not glues. Any imput would be appreciated. (Even things that are not totally period correct may help with simple projects for children.) Again, thanks for all this list teaches all us pilgrims! John Fleming ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:32:32 -0500 From: "Ken McWilliams" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch Sorry Lanney, But I noticed that one of the things mountain men were supposedly noted for had never come up on the list. That is the ability (?) to tell some great yarns. A little humor now and then never hurt anyone either. To all interested parties: I suggest we take our pursuit of the elusive sasquatch off line and send further responses privatly. Your Obt. Servant, YellowFeather - ---------- > From: Lanney Ratcliff <rat@htcomp.net> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch > Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 8:16 AM > > I know it is all in fun, and I'm worse than most in that regard, but I will > be glad when somebody finally catches a damn sasquatch. > Lanney Ratcliff > -----Original Message----- > From: Calamity Jane <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> > To: Mtn. Man <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 11:42 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch > > > >Howdy Fellers! > > If'n you truly are a trying to catch a live Sasquatch let me tell you a > >little trick I learnt down on the Brazos of all places. What you need is > >some female Sasquatch lure! Just lay a trail from one of their waterin' > >holes to where you have built a trap. Actually, if'n you just leave the > >stopper outta' the bottle they just about follow you dang near anywhere. > >Now, I grant you this lure is a mite hard to come by since it contains > >Sasquatch pheramones. I had a lotta time to think this out drivin' them > >mules north - nottin more borin' than starin at the south end of a > >north-bound mule for hundreds of miles! > >What with all them green hides in the back of the wagon a Sasquatch > >wouldn't come any closer than the Black Hills are from Nogales. > > Panther Pete offered to catch me a female Sasquatch ifin' I'd give him a > >jug of corn squeezins I got off some sod busters up on the Missouri. I > >didn't ask him the particulars as I'm not one to pry into a feller's > >private life, but he did catch me one. She gave me the first pheramones > >and told me how to make more - a little like makin' sourdough bread. It > >would've been a lot easier to get more if she'a come with me, but she > >wouldn't let ole' Pete outta her sight. Far as I know they're still livin' > >in the caves down near Del Rio. Nuf Said. > > Calamity Jane > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:31:16 EDT From: KP MTN MAN <KPMTNMAN@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives The only adhesive that i know of is made from boiling hooves from deer, elk, etc and then to keep reducing the mixture over moderat heat until you get the consistency you are looking for. Airtight containers will work for a while to store the unused portion. If it gets too thick you can re-hydrate once or twice without ruining the mixture. Any other suggestions anyone has wouyld be welcome. A Greenhorn in training ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:27:38 -0500 From: "Ken YellowFeather" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Howdy John, I'll probably catch it for this, but, seems she could let them use a "white" glue like Elmers or "Tru Bond" Woodworkers Glue. Both are safe for kids to use and used properly will hold wood, leather, and paper products together very well. Lance Grabowski used to swear by rubber cement for all kinds of stuff! Saddles, rawhide, leather and such. I use the Tru Bond for all my wood working projects and it not only works great but cleans up with water. I used to have a recipe for making hoof glue, that I used for gluing the wooden ends of powder horns, but lost it years ago. YellowFeather - ---------- > From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives > Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 7:39 PM > > Hello the net! > > Sorry, but I am bringing out another question here. It seems I have a real > talent to get some almost too lively discussion going on the list, but I think > I'm safe this time. > > My wife teaches school, and is always trying to do projects based on 18th and > 19th century tools and technology. Does any body have any old recepies for > adhesives or know some prime ingredients used in them? She has recepies for > making soaps, dies, and other things, but not glues. > > Any imput would be appreciated. (Even things that are not totally period > correct may help with simple projects for children.) Again, thanks for all > this list teaches all us pilgrims! > > John Fleming ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:31:32 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Calico in Fur trade twas good writeing and good reference material my complements to the writer good smooth and bountiful input. will store back for future reference. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:58:36 -0700 From: Dale Nelson <dnelson@wizzards.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives JFLEMYTH wrote: > > Does any body have any old recepies for > adhesives or know some prime ingredients used in them? Hide glue. Boil rawhide. good source of rawhide is dog chewies at the super market. Boil slowly for a long time. Do this outside and down wind from the house or any friends as it tends to be a wee bit whiffy on the lee side. Drain off the concentrate and set aside. It will gel. To use it, warm it up and it will turn to liquid again. Another quick and easy source of hide glue is Knox Gelatin in the jello section of the supermarket. Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:11:24 EDT From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives As i recall, hide glue, made from boiling rawhide and cooking the liquids down was a pretty common substance during the 'period'. I don't have a recipe, but hopefully somebody on the list will be able to help, or having the name will get you in the right direction. Hope this helps. PJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:14:53 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: rate of twist THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE WAS POSTED TO THE LIST AND i WAS IN DISAGREEMENT WITH IT. i HAVE PREPARED A RESPONSE AND SUBMIT TO THE LIST MY FULL EXPLINATION AS TO WHY I NONCURRED mY RESPONSE FOLLOWS THE MESSAGE. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:02:31 EST JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> writes: I know several things that can lead to keyholing, but the first thing I would look at is what is the twist and what is the powder load. For instance, I do most of my informal shooting with a T/C Hawkin in .50 caliber. (Not very period correct, but very fun and easy to clean.) I get great groups with round ball at 25 or 50 yards with patched ball and 60 grains of FFg. However, when I try to shoot conicles, even with 85 grains, I occasionaly keyhole because the rate of twist is too slow to stabilize the bullet at those low end velocities. And that is approaching maximum safe load! What else do you reccomend? You obviously have a lot of experience and knowledge, (something I don't always have!) But I don't see why your against discussing rate of twist. John Fleming TO jOHN AND THE LIST THIS IS THE RESPONSE TO THE TWIST AND KEYHOLEING THING I have been writeing on. TWIST VERSES KEY HOLING BY MICHAEL PIERCE all rights reserved all information is of my own belief and obtained from the references provided and verbally from many experts both living and dead. DISCLAIMER: I have been reading all the posting about the twist of a rifle is what causes keyholing of bullets. First before I start this "POINT OF VIEW" I want to get a few things straight and want to emphasize some important data. 1. THIS DISSERTATION IS NOT TALKING ABOUT MODERN GUNS. 2. IT IS A DISCUSSING ABOUT KEYHOLING AND IT"S CAUSE IN A MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE. 3. I will not be making comparison of "ORANGES TO DEAD FROGS". 4. I do not have a advanced degree in ballistics and am not a specialist or a expert in the field. 5. This presentation includes what I have learned or been taught by those whom I consider experts and documented writings on the subject. 6. I am trying to use a common sense approach with this response. I will cite two extremely good references for the muzzleloading shooter to use to obtain even more detailed info from, and i use them myself. I will not give page numbers for reference in this dissertation because I feel that the info is important enough that any avid muzzle loading shooter will read and have available good reference to help resolve any shooting problem he might have. THE FIRST REFERENCE is "Muzzle loading shooting and winning with the champions" Edited by Don Davis. Available From the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association $8.00 for members, and $10.00 for non members. A outstanding book with each chapter written by not only a winner but a experts in a specific type of shooting IE Off hand, flint, percussion, slug, military musket, shotgun, primitative or whatever. It covers loading, cleaning, shooting, making a gun shoot, basic shooting techniques and everything a new or even a old shooter should know. It gives the average shooter info that he doesn't know. Its just good to jog your memory when you are having a shooting problem and cannot resolve it. THE SECOND REFERENCE is "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle by Ned Roberts" It covers loads, twist, shooting, and about everything you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask because you were afraid someone would think you were stupid is discussed in detail. It contains input from many old time muzzle loading gunsmiths. it was my bible before "Shooting and winning with the champions" was published. INFORMATION PROVIDED AND BODY OF THIS PAPER Before we look at the causes of keyholing I want to talk about a few terms, muzzle loading bullets, patched round ball, minnie, slugs and a few basic considerations that we must keep in mind before we consider twist as the primary factor for keyholeing. First patched round ball==== everyone that is knowledgeable about them thinks that a round ball is round and the patch is to seal the gases from leaking and to hold the round ball on the powder charge. Some of this is true, This is not accurate and is not the total complete picture. In order to get accuracy from a round ball you first have to get what is called "upset" or base deformation of the ball or bullet when the gun fires. I will use the term upset. The patch that you use is to seal the gases off and to create enough friction to allow the base of the round ball to upset or be pushed into the rifling or the sides of the smoothbore barrel. A patch that rolls or balls up usually indicative of a rough bore or a ball that is of improper diameter. We get flyers with round balls just as we do with slugs or minnies. If you look at a patch that has been shot there should be no holes in it. You should be able to almost reuse the patch for a second shot. if it has black streaks on it, it indicates that you have blowby. Blowby is caused by; a rough, or dirty bore, rifling that has too sharp of edges, improper bullet size to patch combination, or an improper cut crown, too hard or impure lead or insufficient powder charge to get proper upset, just to give a few causes. The primary reason we use pure lead for muzzle loading bullets is because it is soft, cheap and will deform by the powder charge igniting. All bullets have to deform a certain amount in order to obtain any degree of accuracy. A smooth bore must do the same to shoot a round ball properly. a rifle must have proper upset to obtain any amount of real accurcy in a muzzle loading rifle no matter if you are shooting round ball or minnie. This is the compression of the lead and patch against the walls of the barrel and the bullet or balls base It must be done in the proper amount. This compression against the walls creates friction as the bullet starts up the barrel and allows the powder to deform the base of the bullet sufficiently to press the patch and bullet properly into the rifling or the inside of the bore on a smoothbore. (THIS IS BASIC UPSET). If we looked at the part of a bullet that is against the powder at the time of loading you have a nice radius with the patch filling the void between the bullet and the barrel. If you take a gun that shoots good and you pushed a bullet and patch through the barrel it will have a indentation of the patch with some amount of indentation from the rifling. The patch is gripping the bullet and compressed into the rifling a certain amount. If we could look at or stop a minnir or bullet or round ball before it leaves the muzzle of the gun you would note and would be able to see deformation at the base of the bullet. This in effect changes a round ball into a very short conical and it is no longer round. I just finished a fine Muzzle loading traditional flint fire arm. the gun has a 1-20 twist, it's 45 caliber by the twist as most that have been responding to the keyholing problem would say it must be made for minnies or slugs or maxi balls. "WRONG ANSWER BUCKWHEAT" Its a round ball gun, and darn accurate at 25 and 50 yds. It only shoots 38 gr of 3f. You guessed it, "Its a handgun". and it's very powder critical to get good accuracy. 3 to 5 grains of powder makes a difference in group. yet i took the time to work up a load, started at 25 gr and went to 60 gr in 3 AND 2 and 1 gr increments. I found that 38 gr shot the best group. its Accurcy was 5 shots less than 1.5 in at 25 yds, at a rest.(that's 10 ring accuracy on a muzzle loading big bull target by the way) at 25 yds. I had a 5 1/5 in group using 25 gr and at 50 gr had a 6.00 in group. When going from 25 to 50 yds i increase the powder charge by 3 grams. Weather also affects the load of a muzzle loader, temperature and humidity both play a important part. as temperature goes up the powder will burn cleaner. As humidity goes up the powder draws moisture and will not burn as clean and efficient. Had a long discussion with Bill Large over the phone one time. Took him almost a hr of long distance phone bill to communicate some basic rules of thumb for adjusting powder charge for weather conditions. The funny thing is that he was right, it seems to work quite well. "Being the stupid mountain boy that I am", it took several days at the range and shooting to verify that he was right and I did everything possible to try to prove him wrong. He knew his barrels and he knew his muzzle loaders and what it took to make them shoot. he gave me these basic rules for weather: "Bill Large Rules For Adjusting Powder For Weather" Take any day and shoot your muzzle loader and find your accuracy load. Record the temperature and the humidity. lets say that you had a day that the temperature was 70 degrees and the humidity was 40%. You have a 54 cal firearm and you determined that the accuracy load was 80 gr to make your gun hit the 10 ring consistently. you are shooting under a covered firing area so light is not affecting your sighting. RULE: For ever 25 degrees temperature rise above your accuracy base decrease the powder charge by 1 gr. For ever 10% humidity change increase your powder charge by 1 gr. Now we are at the range on another day weather conditions have changed today its 100 degrees temperature, the humidity has gone up to about 80 %. lets do our math in our head. Its about a increase of 3 grams more or less for the powder charge. to get the same accuracy and point of impact center. There are several sources that explain this and each are different a minor bit but all come up with the same conclusion "temperature and humidity affects the accuracy of the muzzle loader". If you had clicker sights on your muzzle loader you could even adjust them in place of changing the powder charge. which is what most round ball target shooters do. "Discussion on twist and exactly what it is" Just exactly what is the rifling twist in a muzzle loading rifle in simple terms that i can understand. We all say it's the number of turns that the rifling makes from the breach to the muzzle of the firearm. Is it the spin on the bullet Yes this is true, but why do they stabilize the round ball or bullet that is going down the barrel. Is it the spinning rotation of the projectile. The spinning does help to stabilize the bullet but other things should be considered other than the spin of the bullet which is truly important for stabilization. Many are going to disagree with this explanation but it seemed logical and was stated by Bill Large to me. Most smooth bore foulers that shoot well usually have long barrels? why is this? Most rifled barrels are shorter and more accurate? why is this? How do I make a shorter barrel to shoot as accurate as a long barrel. Do the groves in the barrel make a difference. yes more surface area for more friction to cause the round ball to upset and stabilize. If you took a smooth bore and pulled groves straight down the barrel, will it make the barrel more accurate. yes because there is more surface area for the round ball to ride on, more friction and more time for the gun to have upset. Now how can I make that short barrel longer yet remain short. We add twist to the groves. Take a piece of string measuring 60 inches, then take a round stick (any diameter) mark a point on both ends parallel to each other. Place the string on one end and wrap the string 1 turn around the stick and the string is now shorter. In effect you have decreased the string length by one stick circumference. This is the length of travel, and in effect have increased the length of the barrel that distance for the bullet to travel. How do I determine exactly what twist that I need to get accuracy for my gun, "not easy". What you have to do is determine the optimum loading for what ever twist you have. That's more simpler, but takes time and work. Barrel makers have calculated and experimented and will recommend a specific twist for the type of projectile you are using. Ie: Round ball, Minnie, Slug, Composite slug, hard lead, soft lead, copper jacket, sabot or whatever your heart desires. Twists will range from 1-12 inches to about 1-70 inches or more depending upon the projectile you are using, and don't forget the projectile diameter either. That is also a key factor in the wonderment of twist. It it possible for the twist to cause keyholing---yes definitely-- but not in round ball only in bullets or conical. Any twist will stabilize a bullet if it has the proper powder charge to obtain proper upset and spin and speed on the bullet to stabilize it. No two are the same, and no conical is ever fully stable. In effect the powder charge is the primary factor for a muzzleloader that determines if the bullet will be most stable in flight. Other factors also effect stability and are just as important. the crown and the muzzle end are the first two I will discuss. The crown must be even and the muzzle must be as square as possible. If not the bullet when it leaves the muzzle in effect is coming out off angle and creates a unstable condition and will cause the bullet to tumble or key hole. You will never get a stable or accurate gun unless this is corrected. This is probably one of the primary factors that causes keyholeing or instability of a bullet in flight. A dirty bore or a rough place in the barrel will do the same thing to a conical or a bullet. in a round ball it will cut or damage the patch or seal and cause a flyer and not a keyhole. A primary factor that cannot be left out is the condition of the ball or minnie or slug being fired. If there is holes, voids or improperly cast skirts you are going to get a flyer. a cracked skirt will make a minnig go into funny places. The most critical part of the minnie is the skirt and when used with the proper powder charge to obtain proper upset is probably one of the most accurate rounds fired in a basic muzzleloader other than a slug gun. It also extends the range of the firearm. Many long range records were set with military muskets fireing minnies. When a minnie is fired the skirt and the base of the bullet are upset into the rifleing obtaining a seal- this is the reason why cleanness is of importance when fireing minnies. bad bores, bad crowns and improper powder charges and bad bullets cause the minnie to flair out at the base in a excesive manner and cause the bullet to become unstable thus causing flyers for minnies only. I can keep explaining all the other factors that will effect the flight of a muzzleloading projectile but feel we will be beating a dead horse. Therefore as you can see I believe that keyholeing in a bullet or minnie is caused by other factors other than twist. Twist is only a single possible factor if you didn't do your homework and develop a proper powder charge. RANDOM KEYHOLEING IS NOT CAUSED BY THE TWIST OF THE RIFLING BUT FROM A DIRTY BORE, BAD BULLET OR MINNIE OR A BAD CROWN OR MUZZLE OF THE RIFLE. IT IS ALSO CAUSED FROM IMPROPER POWDER CHARGE SO THAT THE BULLET IS NOT PROPERLY UPSET FOR THE RIFLING IN THE SPECIFIC FIREARM BEING USES AND FIRED. I feel sure someone will have many differences in opinion but this paper is what i thank is correct and look forward to those who can show me my error in my thinking and expand my knowledge base. THANKS FOR READING THIS JOURNAL AND FULLY TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE POINTS THAT ARE BEING MADE. please forgive all clerical errors, im' not a english major. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #65 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. 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