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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #63 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, May 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 063 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:12:51 +0100 From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net> Subject: [none] Re: Recent messages on hairpipes,chokers Native people in n. America made divers beads of shell for centuries, at least. The "columella" beads that someone mentioned were made from the central column of a conch shell (hence the name) which, when the rest of the shell was broken away, was roughly a cylinder that could be broken or cut into beads and then drilled. These are not hairpipes. I have never seen a native-made hairpipe that anyone would recognize as being a hairpipe--the long, thin bead which is thicher in the middle and tapers toward both ends. Maybe a few were made, but when most people use the term "hairpipe" (and certainly when it was used in the 19th century American trade) they refer to the long double tapered beads that we all know. Hairpipes were first commercially made probably sometime in the late 1700s. Lewis & Clark carried a few of them among their trade goods. At that time the commercial hairpipes were all shell. They were manufactured commercially in the northeast out of the thick outer lips of conch shells, not the inner column. Shell pipes were rather delicate and breakable and were expensive. However, just like with the short shell beads that were woven into "wampum belts", native people recognized a good thing when they saw it and the commercial products quickly dislaced most native-manufactutred similar products. Original Shell hairpipes are very rare today. At least by the later 19th century the shell bead industry was centered in Bergen Co NJ with the Campbell family. They used conch shells that were jettisoned ballast from sailing ships. Other shell items were also made including conchos (then called "moons"), flat bone disc beads, and straight-sided tubular bone beads of various lengths. All these items were generically called "wampum" in refernce to the shell material. Some time ca. 1840 the first hairipes were made of bone. Many people will recall Dr Ewers' classic "Hairpipes in Plains Indian Adornment" in which he traces the "invention" of bone pipes to the late 19th century. Since he published that work, however, we have discovered conclusive proof in the AFC commercial records that both bone and wampum hairpipes were available in the early 1840s. I have found invoices that list bone and wampum hairpipes side by side. I was able to discuss this with Dr Ewers before he died and he acknowledged that this information had been unknown to him and that it pushed back the introduction of bone pipes. Please note,however, that before about 1870 the vast, vast majority of hairpipes were shell. Only until the last quarter of the 19th century were bone pipes made in significant numbers. They were cheaper and more sturdy and the familiar necklaces and "breastplates" of hundreds of pipes resulted. The bone used was bovine. Hairpipe bead chokers were very scarce on the Plains before the very late 19th century at the earliest. I know of no evidence of any hairpipe chokers being worn before about 1850. There is one Catlin portrait of a Comanche man that is often pointed to as being a pipe choker, but the "bones" are straight tubes, not tapered hairipes, and they look to be 4 to 5" long. The earliest chokers that were widely worn by Plains people (say 1850 (?) to 1880) were either dentailum shell or glass tube beads. Dentalia was all the rage until late in the century. Clearly none of these things--whatever the material--would have offered any meaningful "armor" protection and there is no evidence other than 20th century romanticism that these pieces of jewelry had any such function. This is all certain to ruffle feathers, I usually do, but facts are facts. Allen Chronister ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:13:10 EDT From: Casapy123 <Casapy123@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Allen, thanks for the information. I was going to refer everyone to Dr. Ewers article, which is the same one Dean referneced earlier. Here's my two cents based on that articel. You additional info regarding AFC records still puts chokers out of the mountain man era in my mind. Dr. John C. Ewers has some enlightening information that may burst the bubble of those portraying mountain men who like to wear chokers. If you are all sitting down... Dr. Ewers published his paper, "Hair Pipes in Plains Indian Adornment; A Study in Indian and White Ingenuity," through the Smithsonian Institution, Bureau of American Ethnology, Anthropological Papers, No. 50, in 1957. In that paper, he says, on page 57: "Catlin alone of the artists of the precamera period illustrated still another use of hair pipes. His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as Dohasan), first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him wearing a close-fitting choker of four rows of horizontal hair pipes. The hair pipe choker was also worn by The Sea, a Sauk and Fox man, who posed for his photograph in 1869. I have seen no other illustrations of this ornament of hair pipes depicting its use prior to 1880." Granted, this is among Indians, but it seems to reason that if mountain men were wearing chokers, they probably picked up the fashion from Indians. I suppose one could argue that the mountain man introduced the idea to Indians, but I'd want to see the reference on that one. According to Ewers, chokers weren't common until after 1880. Let's look at a few trade inventories to see what kind of numbers they reveal. Same reference, page 48 - Lachapelle, 10-17-1831 15 pairs hair pipes Lafleur, 10-31-1831 11 pairs " " Campbell, 10-?-1832 17 pairs " " Cerre, 11-?-1832 10 pairs " " Fort Clark 11-23-1832 45 hair pipes Most of these were 5" to 6" long and were sold as adornments for the hair (hence the name hair pipes) or for ear ornaments. Bone replaced shell as the material of construction around 1880 and this may well explain the increase in their use after that date as the items were cheaper when made from this material. Ewers states, page 52, "In view of the great number of contemporary field descriptions of the Plains Indians written by explorers, travelers, fur traders, and Government officials prior to 1880, it is really remarkable how meager is the information on Indian use of hair pipes." For me, this rules out the wearing of a choker in a mountain man portrayal. Sure, you could argue that tribes other than Plains Indians MIGHT have worn them, but I'd want to see the documentation before I accepted it into my garb. Jim Hardee AMM #1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 23:33:29 -0600 From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... At 12:13 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Jim Hardee wrote: >....."Catlin alone of the artists of the precamera period illustrated still another >use of hair pipes.=A0 His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as= Dohasan), >first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him wearing a= close-fitting >choker of four rows of horizontal hair pipes.=A0 ....... Sounds like some good info coming out on this perennial topic.=A0 About the= only thing I can add is to point out the portrait mentioned in the quote above is at the Smithsonian's website at=20 http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/plate23a.htm if anybody wants to see it for themselves.=A0 This may be the same portrait Allen was thinking of ?. There's a portrait by Karl Bodmer that shows what _might_ be hair pipes worn choker-fashion.=A0 It was painted in March 1834 and is of a Mandan man at= Ft. Clark.=A0 I scanned in a detail and posted it at http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/gif/bodmer/choker.jpg Take a look -- What do y'all think?? - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 05:41:57 -0700 From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD797A.D97C1280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pimout2-int.prodigy.net id IAA84988 Now that Dean and others have proved that chokers were worn by the Indian= s in the 1830's does this mean that Mt men worn them. In my opinion I don'= t think very many worn them because my observation shows that most men in that time frame didn't much jewelry, in the cities and I think it ran ove= r into the mountains there could have been one or two here and there that would have but I don't think it was the norm. I think it would have had the same opinions as it was when I grew up in the 50's about men wearing jewelry. Now I wear jewelry two ear rings and a wedding ring. But I wouldn't have wore a ear ring back in 1958, no way I would have been a point of ridicule. But after 3 children and 3 grand babies I don't give = a poop any more. =20 - ---------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 10:33 PM At 12:13 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Jim Hardee wrote: >....."Catlin alone of the artists of the precamera period illustrated still another >use of hair pipes.=A0 His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as Dohas= an), >first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him wearing a close-fitting >choker of four rows of horizontal hair pipes.=A0 ....... Sounds like some good info coming out on this perennial topic.=A0 About t= he only thing I can add is to point out the portrait mentioned in the quote above is at the Smithsonian's website at=20 http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/plate23a.htm if anybody wants to see it for themselves.=A0 This may be the same portra= it Allen was thinking of ?. There's a portrait by Karl Bodmer that shows what _might_ be hair pipes worn choker-fashion.=A0 It was painted in March 1834 and is of a Mandan man at= Ft. Clark.=A0 I scanned in a detail and posted it at http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/gif/bodmer/choker.jpg Take a look -- What do y'all think?? - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html - ---------- - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD797A.D97C1280 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Now that Dean and others have proved = that chokers were worn by the Indians in the 1830's does this mean that = Mt men worn them. In my opinion I don't think very many worn them = because my observation shows that most men in that time frame didn't = much jewelry, in the cities and I think it ran over into the mountains = there could have been one or two here and there that would have but I = don't think it was the norm. I think it would have had the same = opinions as it was when I grew up in the 50's about men wearing jewelry. = Now I wear jewelry two ear rings and a wedding ring. But I = wouldn't have wore a ear ring back in 1958, no way I would have = been a point of ridicule. But after 3 children and 3 grand babies = I don't give a poop any more. = <br= >---------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: = Wednesday, May 06, 1998 10:33 PM At 12:13 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Jim = Hardee wrote: >....."Catlin alone of the artists of the = precamera period illustrated still another >use of hair = pipes.=A0 His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as = Dohasan), >first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him = wearing a close-fitting >choker of four rows of horizontal hair = pipes.=A0 ....... Sounds like some good info coming out on this = perennial topic.=A0 About the only thing I can add is to point out = the portrait mentioned in the quote above is at the Smithsonian's = website at http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/plate23a.htm</= u> if anybody wants to see it for = themselves.=A0 This may be the same portrait Allen was thinking of = ?. There's a portrait by Karl Bodmer that shows what _might_ be = hair pipes worn choker-fashion.=A0 It was painted in March 1834 and = is of a Mandan man at Ft. Clark.=A0 I scanned in a detail and posted = it at http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/gif/bodmer/chok= er.jpg Take a look -- What do y'all = think?? --------------------------------------------------= - ------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 = Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah = WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ---------- </f= ont></body></html> - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD797A.D97C1280-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 07:12:15 -0700 From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: chokers Allen, Thanks for taking the time to post your comments on the choker discussion. When I said earlier that I had never seen any hairpipes or bonepipes of native manufacture I was refering to both the tapered and straight beads. I don't believe that the Indians had the means of drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole (a very small hole at that) through a 1\4 inch cylinder of bone or shell. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:21:58 -0700 From: "Gail Carbiener" <carbg@cmc.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Choker....... To all: Really appreciate all the discussion about chokers. I guess I can leave my cheap, unconfortable choker at home when doing living history of a 1825 Hudson's Bay Company freeman! Gail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:09:25 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: chokers did not require drilling. a small section of shinbone or wing bone could be used and the center punched out with a piece of cane or a stick. then strung on horse hair or senu as a charm or hair decoration. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 07 May 1998 07:12:15 -0700 Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> writes: >Allen, > > Thanks for taking the time to post your comments on the choker >discussion. When I said earlier that I had never seen any hairpipes >or >bonepipes of native manufacture I was refering to both the tapered and >straight beads. I don't believe that the Indians had the means of >drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole (a very small hole at that) through a 1\4 >inch cylinder of bone or shell. > > Dennis > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:31:37 -0500 From: "Ken YellowFeather" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: chokers Dennis, you wrote, "don't believe indians had the means of drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole"........ Believe it or not they did, and I have the tubes and pieces to prove it! They did some rather amazing things with primitive tools. Have one that is 3 15/16 inches and the smallest dia. is about 3/32 inch. BTW...I have not been able to duplicate this yet. About 1/8 is the smallest I have been able to do. I used to make replicas for the Institute of Texan Cultures and tried to copy one of the longer tubes w/o success. Your Obt. Servant, YellowFeather - ---------- > From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: chokers > Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 9:12 AM > > Allen, > > Thanks for taking the time to post your comments on the choker > discussion. When I said earlier that I had never seen any hairpipes or > bonepipes of native manufacture I was refering to both the tapered and > straight beads. I don't believe that the Indians had the means of > drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole (a very small hole at that) through a 1\4 > inch cylinder of bone or shell. > > Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:45:55 -0500 From: "Ken YellowFeather" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Howdy Dean, In reference to the painting....It looks more like he used wing bones fro= m a large bird to me. My guess is they might be eagle, and his "choker" is probably ceremonial. Maybe even for the sun dance. Perhaps if we could se= e his back, he might have worn this "choker" after doing his sun dance vows= ? My scars are on my chest, but I do not know how the Kiowa did the sun dance. Just my humble opinion. Your Obt. Servant, YellowFeather - ---------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 12:33 AM At 12:13 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Jim Hardee wrote: >....."Catlin alone of the artists of the precamera period illustrated still another >use of hair pipes.=A0 His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as Dohas= an), >first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him wearing a close-fitting >choker of four rows of horizontal hair pipes.=A0 ....... Sounds like some good info coming out on this perennial topic.=A0 About t= he only thing I can add is to point out the portrait mentioned in the quote above is at the Smithsonian's website at=20 http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/plate23a.htm if anybody wants to see it for themselves.=A0 This may be the same portra= it Allen was thinking of ?. There's a portrait by Karl Bodmer that shows what _might_ be hair pipes worn choker-fashion.=A0 It was painted in March 1834 and is of a Mandan man at= Ft. Clark.=A0 I scanned in a detail and posted it at http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/gif/bodmer/choker.jpg Take a look -- What do y'all think?? - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html - ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:06:47 -0500 From: "Colleen" <admgilb@amber.indstate.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: reenacting forum Good Afternoon List! I found a site just this morning where forums can be created for free, ain't technology wonderful! Anyway, I am attempting to create a reenactor's forum. The site is: http://www.customforum.com/reenact Hopefully, we can get a forum or chat room going. Any suggestions would be helpful! Please feel free to drop by. Thanks! Colleen (Aknhrt) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:06:08 -0500 From: "Ken YellowFeather" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: chokers Hawk, you can do that with bone, but you have to drill the shell! YMOS, YellowFeather - ---------- > From: Michael Pierce <hawknest4@juno.com> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: chokers > Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 2:09 PM > > did not require drilling. a small section of shinbone or wing bone > could be used and the center punched out with a piece of cane or a stick. > then strung on horse hair or senu as a charm or hair decoration. > > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(813) 771-1815 > > On Thu, 07 May 1998 07:12:15 -0700 Dennis Fisher > <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> writes: > >Allen, > > > > Thanks for taking the time to post your comments on the choker > >discussion. When I said earlier that I had never seen any hairpipes > >or > >bonepipes of native manufacture I was refering to both the tapered and > >straight beads. I don't believe that the Indians had the means of > >drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole (a very small hole at that) through a 1\4 > >inch cylinder of bone or shell. > > > > Dennis > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:57:03 -0500 From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <yrrw@cyberramp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: chokers and calico Paul, It sounds to me like you are just getting started buckining. I've been there done that,so for what it's worth here's some advice. Spend a lot of time and some money on good quality books and other research material so you can figure out for yourself exactly what is and is'nt right for you. By that I mean, do you want to follow the idea of " If they'd had, they'd have used it" , or take the time to figure out what was in common use. Either approach is fine, On calico cloth: Yes calico was available, but it was very scarce and very expensive during the fur trade period. A good reference on calico is CALICO CHRONICLE BY BETTY J. MILLS copies of this are pretty hard to get. You might try your local library. The book deals with calico material on the Texas frontier from 1830 to 1910. On chokers: It is my understanding that bone hairpipes were a byproduct of the button industry. They to were very scarce and very expensive until the later part of the 1800's when the equipment became available to mass produce such items. I seem to recall that LEWIS and CLARK carried only a few hairpipes, and gave them only to the highest chiefs and then only one each. Pendleton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:33:47 -0500 From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <yrrw@cyberramp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: manton rifles I have a buddy who is interested in building a flintlock manton rifle, but is not having much luck finding info on them. One problem is MANTON was an ENGLISH gunbuilder. I had the same problem a few years ago researching a BARNETT trade rifle. There is all kinds of info on AMERICAN gunbuilders, but very little on the BRITISH guys. I'm hoping with the help of this new fangle machine some of you folks can lend a hand. Pendleton ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1998 18:03:06 -0700 From: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re Manton Rifles Re Manton Rifles There IS a book out on Joe Manton, I've seen in in my friend's hands (a gunsmith), but unless its called something obvious like the "Guns of Joe Manton" I don't know what to say. It was mostly fowlers and pistols rather than rifles however -- no mention of the 62 caliber Manton rifle that Drummond Stewart mentions in Edward Warren. Lots of good lock details however. Try Amazon or other internet bookstore? Pat Quilter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 20:46:43 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: chokers and calico and (blue beads) DARN GOOD INPUT ON THE CALICO, AND TO EXPAND THE DISCUSSON---- lewis and clark also had some beautiful blue beads and on one ocasion traded one for a horse or the like if i remember corectly. I know a person who has one of the blue beads suposively from the lewis and clark expi. and it is beautiful. He promised to will it to me if he ever dies. probably be like me and live too long. I gave him my goose egg chevrons necklace with 6 chevrons on it as a gift one christmas because he had admired them for over 10 years and I hated the big heavy things. the bead collector that gave him the blue bead saw them and told him what they were and now he won't even let me look at them afraid i might want them back. I won them at a shooting match many years ago as first prize. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 7 May 1998 16:57:03 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton" <yrrw@cyberramp.net> writes: >Paul, >It sounds to me like you are just getting started buckining. I've been >there done that,so for what it's worth here's some advice. Spend a lot >of >time and some money on good quality books and other research material >so >you can figure out for yourself exactly what is and is'nt right for >you. By >that I mean, do you want to follow the idea of " If they'd had, they'd >have >used it" , or take the time to figure out what was in common use. >Either >approach is fine, On calico cloth: Yes calico was available, but it >was >very scarce and very expensive during the fur trade period. A good >reference on calico is CALICO CHRONICLE BY BETTY J. MILLS copies of >this >are pretty hard to get. You might try your local library. The book >deals >with calico material on the Texas frontier from 1830 to 1910. On >chokers: >It is my understanding that bone hairpipes were a byproduct of the >button >industry. They to were very scarce and very expensive until the later >part >of the 1800's when the equipment became available to mass produce such >items. I seem to recall that LEWIS and CLARK carried only a few >hairpipes, >and gave them only to the highest chiefs and then only one each. > >Pendleton > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:35:42 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: manton rifles MANTON PRIMARILY MADE SHOTGUNS AND DID MANUFACTURE LOCKS THAT WERE SOLD AND SEVERAL ENGLISH MAKERS USED THEM ON THEIR SPORTING RIFLES. i HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE MANTON RIFLE AND IT WAS A SPORTING TYPE OF RIFLE WITH WHAT LOOKED LIKE A SHOTGUN BUTT PLATE BUT HAD A RIFLED BARREL. references 1. the great guns by Harold peterson pages 72,77,121,124,132-- no pictures of rifles Note pace 120 shows a shotgun that looked like the sporting rifle i worked on except it is double barreled and a smooth bore. Manton primarily made shotguns and did manufacture locks that were sold to several english makers that made sporting rifles I have seen only one manton rifle. it had a buttplate that is similar to a shotgun and a scroll triggerguard like a hawkins rifle. It had a large bore of about 62 cal and the barrel was hex with wedding bands and tapered round to the muzzle. the breech end of the rifle was about 1 1/8 thich and the muzzle of the rifle was about 1.00. It basically looked like a single barrel shotgun with a under rib and with a rifled barrel. It was a good shooter and it felt extremely well when brought to the sholder. I made a mainspring for it and had a heck of a time getting it strong enough to feel right. there was a fly in the lock and the spring had a styrrup and pin that connected to the spring. from the tumbler. it was a very fast lock. Joe or joseph manton owned a shooting gallery and made a lot of pistols for prominent english noblemen and prominent dueelers. You will find a lot that there mostly flint. most of the shotguns that were marked manton also had the same markings on the top flat between the two barrels and also said London Fine Twist. I have a manton double barrel shotgun in percussion -- many of these were made and shipped to the colonies. These are primarily procussion-- find a manton double flint and you are now looking at a bunch of bucks. I know of two of then and have tried to buy them on ocasions but couldnt justify the price conceived by the owners. darn near the price of a purdy double. I will contact the guy that i fixes it for and see if he has any pictures and will send a note offline if i can get them or if he will let me have them. DARN NEAR EVER MANTON I HAVE SEEN IS EATHER A SHOTGUN OR A PISTOL. RIFLES WILL BE A HARD ONE TO FIND. CONTACT LEE GOOD @ dAVIS MUSEUM IN CLARIMORE OKLAHOMA AND SEE WHAT INFO HE HAS AVAILABLE. HE USTO WRITE A COLUMN FOR MUZZLEBLAST MAGAZINE. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 7 May 1998 17:33:47 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton" <yrrw@cyberramp.net> writes: >I have a buddy who is interested in building a flintlock manton rifle, >but >is not having much luck finding info on them. One problem is MANTON >was an >ENGLISH gunbuilder. I had the same problem a few years ago researching >a >BARNETT trade rifle. There is all kinds of info on AMERICAN >gunbuilders, >but very little on the BRITISH guys. I'm hoping with the help of this >new >fangle machine some of you folks can lend a hand. > >Pendleton > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:29:33 -0500 From: "Ken YellowFeather" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: Choker....... Hello the list, > > Thought that some of you might be interested in a discussion between Hawk > and I on chokers. We ain't poking fun at anyone, just thought the whole > thing was a little funny in places. Just shows that we don't have to take > things so seriously to learn! > YellowFeather > > > > From: Michael Pierce <hawknest4@juno.com> > > To: rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net > > Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Choker....... > > Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 11:46 PM > > > > KEN > > TELL HIM THAT THEY ARE CALLED HAIR PIPES BECAUSE THEY ARE HAIR TODAY AND > > GONE TOMORROW. THAT'S MAKES JUST ABOUT AS MUCH SENSE. > >YF> Dennis, that bead collector must have gotten hold of Hawk's lizard > juice, or else he was pulling your leg! Have a good laugh on us and > remember that all of us have had our leg pulled at least once. > > > Hawk>The explanation that i was given for calling them hair pipes is that > when > > they were first found by archeologist and grave robbers as such many of > > the old original breast plates were strung on woven horse hair and senu > > mix with the horse hair giving a certain amount of color to the design > > and many has hair locks at the leather spacers or joiners, the tubes were > > bone of small animals or deer bleached and strung thru the hole in the > > center and slightly tapered on each end to give depth to the design. the > > natural hole was similar to a small pipe-- when combining and looking > > for a name someone in their ultimate wisdom combined the two words and > > hence the name "HAIR PIPES" with the author unknown. > > > > Mine is only one of many possible explanations but if the darn easter > > bunny would send me a big box of hair pipes i would truly appreciate it > > cause i sure wouldn't make chokers from them. primary purpose was > > as a form of armor against a slashing knife or tomahawks down the front > > of the individual. in the late 1800 beads were added to give color to > > the design many used brass beads. all of the early ones that had beads > > used shell beads, no glass or metal. the color was from the colored > > horse hair used to string them on if no beads were used. There is several > > good examples of this at smithsonian and a couple of other museums that > > specializes in indian and prehistoric artifacts. > > > > You will note that i have not stated that hair pipes are or are not fur > > trade time period or not. I would project that they were around in some > > form from the creation of man as a hunter or gatherer to our present day > > YF> My own opinion is that chokers are not correct period wear for > mountain men. One picture in a museum that shows a "choker" of materials > that can not be properly identified is not proof enough for me. Of course > you know what they say about opinions. > > > > Hawk>PICK YOUR POISON----You already know my opinion on chokers and why > they > > are called chokers. YF> ( I have to agree with Hawk on this point. I can > not see an indian wearing something into battle that would give his enemy > an advantage. I used to wear one until I was chasing a wounded groundhog > through some brush. I caught it on a limb or something and it jerked me off > my feet. I have not worn one since except for special ceremonies.) > You can post this if you wish, Im just having fun in > > my ignorance and not knowing the real truth about all those easter > > bunnies that have given their life for some fool to wear around their > > neck. > > > > Hawk>"if you are creative you can justify anything in your own mind and > in the > > mind of others" YF> Amen! > > > > Hawk>"Makes me want to take up drinking as a full time sport in place of > > skinning" YF> I keep warning you about that lizard juice! > > > > "Hawk" > > Michael Pierce > > 854 Glenfield Dr. > > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > > 1-(813) 771-1815 > > > > On Tue, 5 May 1998 22:35:02 -0500 "Ken YellowFeather" > > <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> writes: > > >Hawk, > > >Now I have heard everything! Hare pipes, rabbit bones, this is almost > > >as > > >bad as the easter bunny laying colored easter eggs! The man, who told > > >this > > >man this, must have brown eyes. I have no idea how to answer this guy. > > >I am > > >still laughing too much! > > >Later, > > >Ken > > > > > >---------- > > >> From: Dale Nelson <dnelson@wizzards.net> > > >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... > > >> Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 9:42 PM > > >> > > >> Ken McWilliams wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Howdy Dean, > > >> > I find it rather amusing that they give the credit for inventing > > >so > > >called > > >> > hair pipes to a white man. The native Americans were making these > > >and > > >the > > >> > beads at least a thousand years before > > >> > > >> I was under the impression that they are called hare pipes on > > >account of > > >> they were made out of rabbit bones. This was told me by a bead > > >> collector, I have no source, but it might be interesting to look > > >into. > > >> Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:32:07 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re Manton Rifles THE GREAT GUNS BY PETERSON SHOWS SEVERAL MANTONS BUT ALL OF THEM ARE PISTOLS OR RIFLES. iT MAINLY TALKS ABOUT jOE oR jOSEPH MANTON SEE PAGES72,77,121,124,132 "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On 7 May 1998 18:03:06 -0700 "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> writes: > Re Manton Rifles >There IS a book out on Joe Manton, I've seen in in my friend's hands >(a >gunsmith), but unless its called something obvious like the "Guns of >Joe Manton" >I don't know what to say. It was mostly fowlers and pistols rather >than rifles >however -- no mention of the 62 caliber Manton rifle that Drummond >Stewart >mentions in Edward Warren. Lots of good lock details however. Try >Amazon or >other internet bookstore? >Pat Quilter > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:42:48 -0500 From: "Ken YellowFeather" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: traps > > Hello the list, > Hawk and I are debating which traps will work better for trapping a > sasquatch. # 55 beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We > already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will be > greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please! > Your most obt. servants, > Messrs. Hawk & YellowFeather ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:37:56 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban All of Alberta is under a total fire ban right now, for the first time in decades. That means no open fires of any kind, not even charcoal barbecues. People are only allowed to use propane barbecues or campstoves. Has anyone had to cope with reenacting under such historically-incorrect conditions? What did you do? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #63 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.