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hist_text-digest        Wednesday, May 6 1998        Volume 01 : Number 062




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 17:31:17 -0700
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lookin fer good history sites in Utah

Hey Dean and any other Utah Folks,

Gota go to Provo on business later this month. any of you hail from there?
looking for a historic site or two to spend some time at.

B.Dawg

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 1998 19:26:13 -0700
From: "Pat Quilter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Waterproof Canvas

                      Re: Waterproof Canvas
I have used a painter's drop cloth, untreated, with good results as a shelter.
If well draped, without sagging, it will shed water, and will only drip slowly
even when water puddles in sags. It is light and affordable. The usual trick of
tying small rocks in the corners or where needed solves the problems of tying to
stakes, hanging from limbs, etc. One supposes that original mountaineers, if
having canvas at all, had plain cloth which they used for multiple purposes.
Mainly you see references to draping extra blankets or skins over branches etc.
The only drawback to untreated canvas is that you can't blithely wrap your
bedroll in it and sleep out in the rain, but it works great as a shelter with
minimal hassles.  CAUTION: don't do like I did and hang your mocs from a
ridge-rope to dry, it wicked the water down into them and they filled up
overnight.
Yr Ob't Sv't
Pat Quilter

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:10:35 -0500
From: "Ken YellowFeather" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......

Dennis,
The shell tubes you refer to are called columella. (sic?) They were made
from large conch shells. They took the central portion and ground these
pieces into the tubes and some were broken into smaller pieces and made
into beads. I have several hundred of these from walking over plowed fields
in search of arrow heads and such. Some beads and tubes will show evidence
of being drilled as well.
YellowFeather

- ----------
> From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......
> Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 5:15 PM
>
> Ted wrote:
> Of what kind of bones I don't know
>
> The bone pipes were trade items and we made back east in New England.
> There was a very good article in the Fur Trade Quarterly and Dean had a
> link to another on the web.  The early "bone pipes" were made from the
> heavy lip portion of a sea shell (some kind of conch shell?).  Later
> ones were actually made from the thick leg bones of cattle that were
> split into small pieces and then turned.  Maybe someone can remember the
> web article and pass that along.  It was a cottage business and the guy
> who designed the machine to drill them kept it a secret for many years
> as I recall.
>
>                 Dennis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:17:59 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smooth bore barrels

Hawk,

Thanks, it helps to add "perspective" to "facts"!  I appreciate the time you
took to share your experience.  I think a little research is due on my part
to determine which flinter was both "period correct" and the most useful for
my persona.  Naturally it will have to meet one final test.  It'll have to be
"right purdy" too!  I guess only I can determine that!

Regards, Medicine Bear

Michael Pierce wrote:

> MEDICINE BEAR
>
> the information that i am about to provide you with is my personal
> opinion and what i have absorbed from over 35 years buckskinning and from
> many fond friends past and present that are true buckskinners and people
> that were born over a 100 years too late.  keep a open mind and accept
> what you feel is correct to you.
>
> The smooth bore rifle was only one option of the weapons carried by the
> western fur trapper or trader.   use your common sense you will probably
> agree with the next statement that i am about to make.
>
> THE EARLY TRAPPERS AND MOUNTAIN MEN CARRIED  WEAPON THAT THEY WERE
> COMFORTABLE WITH AND HAD THE ABILITY TO PURCHASE PRIOR TO LEAVING
> CIVILIZATION.  THERE BASIC NEEDS DICTATED THE FIREARM THAT THEY FELT WAS
> REQUIRED.  IT COULD HAVE BEEN A Smooth bore  RIFLE, A FUSIL, A FOWLER,  A
> RIFLED GUN, A SINGLE OR DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN, EVEN A HANDGUN.  THE
> WEAPON WAS USED FOR DEFENSE AND FOR THE PROCUREMENT OF MEAT TO SUPPORT
> THEIR EXISTENCE AND FOR BASIC SELF PROTECTION.
>
> each firearm has a special feature that they  could rightly justify or
> that they felt met their requirements.  the neet part of a smooth bore is
> that you didn't have to have lead to fire it. only powder FLINT OR CAP
> and some type of wadding.  lead or shot was wonderful but they could load
> them with rocks, a wooden bullet or anything else that would fit down the
> barrel if they were to run out of shot or ball.    The northwest trade
> gun was appropriate for period and many were altered by  shortening the
> barrel and the stocks, kind of like our sawed off shotguns of today.
> many were repaired with raw hide to hold the barrel in the channel and
> you will see many examples of this in original guns.  the northwest gun
> had a good lock that made good spark and caps were not required to fire
> it, i have seen several of these that were converted to use musket caps
> so what are we to say is period correct.  one can justify anything if he
> thinks about it long enough.  the northwest guns or fowler were easy to
> load and could be loaded on horseback by placing the balls in the cheek
> of the mouth and with a big or burned out touch hole by simply closing
> the frizzen pouring powder down the barrel and blowing a ball down the
> barrel it would fill the flash pan and it  was ready to fire when rideing
> at full gallop along a buffalo then quickly swinging the gun down and
> firings before the bullet fell out .  this is the explanation i was once
> given for having seen several smooth bores with bulges in the barrel---
> yes it could have been caused by improper cleaning or a stuck bullet but
> i like my story better.  PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT CONDONING THIS TYPE OF
> SHOOTING OR EVEN RECOMMENDING IT. you will have to go back to the common
> sense approach and,  logical, feasible, or  practical or could it even be
> done then you make your own determination..
>
> all mountain men dreamed of owning a good rifle but it would cost almost
> a years wages in that time period for the best made.  yes there were
> cheep rifles both in flint and in percussion.  most true buckskinners
> will tell you that a flint rifle is the only one to have because "IF GOD
> WANTED YOU TO HAVE A PERCUSSION GUN THEN HE WOULD HAVE PAVED THE CREEK
> BANKS WITH PERCUSSION CAPS"    a bit radical but again i would say it is
> the need and the ability to procure that dictated the firearm of choice
> for the fur trapper and mountain man..
>
> Most mountain men preferred larger caliber rifles and many were half
> stock, but again it was personal preference.  look at the killing range
> of a muzzle loader and you will see what i am trying to say.  Yes there
> were several 40 caliber guns carried by the mountain men but they
> probably had more than one rifle. and it took a larger caliber or heavier
> bullet to kill at the extended distances required in the plains.  In the
> eastern united states most game was killed at close range and were not
> the size of a buffalo or a bull elk or a grizzly bear.  I have seen
> several small black bears killed with a 40 caliber but most had heavy
> barrels and took a heavy powder charge to get the killing energy needed.
> I have a friend that killed a small black with his 40 cal kentucky loaded
> with 90 gr of black.  he said he had to place the bullet good and he
> still wondered if it was going to die lucky he was hunting out of a tree
> stand and the bear ran over a hundred yards and then collapsed.  He said
> if he ever did it again he would go for the large bore gun over 50 cal.
>
>   If you look at the so called plains rifles you will see a big
> commonality most were large bore and half stock with heavy barrels over
> one inch in dia.  some were even  1 1/2 across the flats  and some were
> tapered to  about 1 in at the muzzle.  since the rifle was carried on
> horseback most of the time the weight of the rifle didn't make that much
> difference.  If you have ever carried a 12 pound rifle in the woods to
> hunt for several days it might change your mind, but their rifles were
> carried primarily on horseback so what's the problem with another 4
> pounds in a gun if it met your needs and requirements..
>
> five things were important to the average mountain man or fur trapper and
> kept close at hand.
> 1. a method to make fire.
> 2. a good knife
> 3. a good belt ax or tomahawk
> 4. some type of firearm to procure game
> 5. good common sense to utilize the above for survival in the wilderness.
>
> some would say you need shelter added to the above but if the mountain
> man or fur trapper had the above he could build his shelter, some would
> say he needed a horse, then i would say god gave him two feet and two
> hands he could survive. I have been a skinner for over 30 years and been
> fortunate to have been around some of the finest men that i believe ever
> lived.  each were teachers in some form or made a important point.
> listen to those who know and use your god given common sense to disregard
> those who haven't been there and done that.  Practical experience is one
> hell of a teacher and it doesn't take long to sort out what is real or
> plain old bull.
>
> REMEMBER: WITH COMMON SENSE A GOOD KNOWLEDGE BASE AND TWO HANDS AND A
> KNIFE A MOUNTAIN MAN CAN SURVIVE ANYWHERE.
>
> Sorry for the length of this epistle but have just spent several hours of
> my time reading over 40 msgs on how to roast a coffee bean and have come
> to the conclusion that our reality or common sense has left us  IF YOU
> ARE NEW TO BUCKSKINNING  then keep in the back of your mind  IF IT WERE
> AVAILABLE AND THE MOUNTAIN MAN COULD HAVE USED IT HE WOULD HAVE,  HE
> WASN'T STUPID, HE SURVIVED ON COMMON SENSE AND HIS EXPERIENCE.
>
> LEARN AND TEACH OTHERS AND BUCKSKINNING WILL ADD ANOTHER DEMENTION AND
> CREATE A WAY OF LIFE FOR YOU IN EVERYDAY LIVING..
>
> If you get to here you will even see that i even said something about
> smoothbore barrels  contact me offline for further discussion .  My
> e-mail address is: [e-mail]
> sorry for the emotional frustration  and verboseness of this epistle.
>
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]
>
> On Sat, 02 May 1998 13:03:21 -0700 Frank
> <[e-mail]> writes:
> >Hello the List,
> >
> >Just a couple questions...
> >Is the smoothbore the gun most often carried by the western fur
> >trapper or eastern
> >woodsman and if so what time frames are we talking about?
> >What rifled barrel guns were carried by western mountain men?
> >
> >Thanks, Medicine Bear
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:55:44 -0600
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......

At 10:10 PM 5/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Dennis,
>The shell tubes you refer to are called columella. (sic?) They were made
>from large conch shells. They took the central portion and ground these
>pieces into the tubes and some were broken into smaller pieces and made
>into beads. I have several hundred of these from walking over plowed fields
>in search of arrow heads and such. Some beads and tubes will show evidence
>of being drilled as well.
>YellowFeather
>

The best reference I know of on the wampum hair pipes can be found on-line,
at:

http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/tptoc.htm


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:53:20 EDT
From: KP MTN MAN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry

Hi. I am new to this list, but am appreciating what I am reading so far.
Thanks for the comments above about authenticity as opposed to the the driving
force behind doing what we do. I gree (for what that's worth) that the spirit
and desire far outweigh the crossed t's and dotted i's.

One of these days I hope to be able to get back into beading and sewing my own
clothes. (took time off to start a family, and 2 kids and a college degree
later, time is scarce) anyway, thanks again for the encouraging words.

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 1998 21:41:14 -0700
From: "Pat Quilter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Light Packs

                      Light Packs
The recent subject of waterproofing canvas and the desire for light packs brings
to hand the following report. On this last weekend of May 1-3, my good friend
Burnt Spoon, who lives on the eastern slopes of Mt Palomar near San Diego,
hosted a three-day Edibles Walk which was attending by four men,  myself, Spoon,
Tom Nichols "Firekeeper", and Dave Hood "Lost and Found". We all decided to
lighten our packs as much as possible, motivated as much by our age and (lack
of) condition as well as a test of our gear. Packs ranged from 25-30 lbs, and
basically comprised a tarp, one blanket, coat, and minimal accoutrements. My
pack was lightest at 25 lbs and comprised the following:
   A light pack frame, which I built primarily from a dried yucca stalk, about
3" thick, split into halves, with the rounded sides of the top and bottom
crosspieces facing my back, and lashed with rawhide into an 18" by 24" frame.
Dry yucca is like balsa wood, but ordinary, inch-thick branches could be used
instead with similar strength. I lashed two crossbars, ordinary 3/4-inch peeled
branches, between the upper and lower crossbars on the outside of the vertical
frame for more tie-points. All crossbars, including top and bottom, extend
several inches outwards so rope can be looped around the first end, around the
first bundle, around the next crossbar end, around the second bundle, etc,
without ever having to feed the rope through an opening. Easy to lash up and
pull tight, using a 15-foot rope on each side, which is also useful around camp.
The resulting frame rides on hip and shoulder with two deerhide shoulder straps.
Up to three bundles can readily be tied to the four crossbars. To my immense
gratification, it proved possible to lean back against the frame and bundles
during rest stops without undue strain. Incidentally, I base this frame solely on
common sense; I have yet to find any references to exact methods used by
mountain men to carry their gear after losing their horses, other than "carrying
our bundles on our backs".
  My first bundle was a canvas, about 7 x 7 feet, sufficient to encase my
bedroll (I am 6" 4"), rolled up with the following possibles: a tin cup with
lid, a tin billy (small and large mating cups), and a several pound canvas sack
with the following items: horn spoon, a sewing kit, scrap of cloth, pince-nez
glasses with tweezers (eyes don't see close like they used to), toothbrush, bum
fodder, burning glass, couple of sticks of pitch pine, small sacks of coffee and
oatmeal for breakfast, sack with dried mixed vegetables for dinner, sack with
sugar, chocolate, and bottle of salt, a 7-oz cheese, and an 8-oz salami. (jerky
instead of salami would be more period perhaps), and a small "quarter axe" about
half the size of the usual camp hawk. This all rolled into a bundle about 20"
long and 7" around. The reader will note that with two cups, I still have the
luxury of fixing coffee and food at the same time, so I hardly felt deprived. I
confess that this piece of canvas is from Panther Primitives and is commercially
waterproofed.  Spoon had a similar piece of home-made oil cloth (Spanish Red)
which was several pounds heavier. I also have a painter's drop cloth, which I
didn't bring, which makes a good shelter or dry weather bedroll cover. A
possible alternative using strictly period material might be two lightweight
canvas tarps, one for a rain shelter, and the other, kept dry, as a windbreak
about the blankets. I have never had much luck staying warm in blankets only, as
any wind seems to seep through and steal your warmth. A buffler robe is of
course splendid but way heavy to carry, especially wet!
   The second bundle, of similar size, had my serape blanket, one of those
hand-woven Bolivian jobs with two 30" panels stitched together and about 7 ft
long, which I undid the stitching for a foot in the middle to stick the head
through, and which sheds rain quite well, rolled around a sheepskin tunic (sew
two shearling skins together, wool side in, leaving arm and head openings),
which is easy as pie to make, provides a lot of warmth for the weight, and is
less confining to sleep in than a capote, plus a wool hood to keep the head
warm, and two thick socks, in reserve only in case the mocassins get dreadfully
wet right before bedtime (if I can enter bed with dry warm mocs, fire toasted if
necessary, my feet usually stay adequately warm). I rather prefer wearing
mocassins without socks, aside from the question of whether mountain men would
have had plenty of socks to wear out. While walking, the little rocks which get
inside are a bit of a pain, but try walking in stream-soaked mocassins with socks
on if you want your feet to feel like two wet sandbags. However, the other men
preferred socks, and we did not have to wade any streams on this trip.
   Upon my person, I carried shooting pouch and horn, belt knife, belt pouch,
fire starting pouch, and canteen, with a light smoothbore in hand.
   This whole rig felt WAY lighter than previous expeditions, where I used a
pack basket and yielded to the temptation to "just throw in" quite a few more
knick-knacks.
   We supplemented our diets with edible greens, and Spoon knew where to find
clean water, but we all carried enough food for the three days.
   The first night, at 38-40 degrees under clear skies, challenged our
non-acclimated bodies, but my restlessness was due more to failure to feather my
nest sufficiently with leaves or the like, rather than lack of insulation. I
have been able to make it through frosty nights with the covers noted above, but
on a first night out, I could only get warm in certain positions which grew too
uncomfortable to hold for long. A good bed of leaves or other cushioning would
not only add to the insulation but permit of greater comfort.
   Our second night out involved some rain, which actually resulted in warmer
temperatures. Having learned from the previous night, we all selected cushier
areas of leaf duff and Spoon augmented his considerably by piling many inches of
leaves between two deadfall logs (which kept him and his mattress in position).
Our various waterproof tarps, combined with the best plant cover we could select,
kept off the rain and we all slept much more cosy. We did not resort to the
common practice in the old days of sleeping in pairs once the weather got truly
cold, nor did we gather tons of wood and sleep around the fire, so there were
still things we could have done to survive in much colder weather.
   I should add that being in California, I don't face truly cold weather too
often. Although contrary to modern backpacker practice, I sleep in the same
buckskins I wear, without long johns or the like, on the assumption that early
travelers quickly wore out any undergarments, might have to leap up suddenly to
check the horses, or repel attack, and the general  notion that nobody much
cared to shift out of clothing already warmed by use. The other men in the party
had cloth shirts which they layered under buckskin or wool capotes to stay warm.
 I have never liked long johns, since besides the historical issue, you can't
remove them during the heat of the day, and I sweat to death while walking.
Clothing which can be put on or off as the need requires works better for me. As
a city boy, I would never hold myself up as an example of physical hardiness,
but I am also impressed by what you can just get used to after a few days out of
doors.
   Anyway, we all enjoyed our outing, and the minor maneuvers we needed to do
for comfort at night were well offset by having a manageable load on the
shoulders by day. One can see methods of surviving with less, but this seemed
like a usable compromise between convenience and minimalism.
   Submitted for your approval, I remain
Yr Ob't Sv't
Pat Quilter, "Horsecatcher".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:51:03 EDT
From: TetonTod <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas

A couple of other tips on waterproofing canvas using linseed oil and paint.
harkening back to Mark  bakers article on the subject in Muzzleloader and from
his video, Be sure to use boiled linseed oil that has a neutral Ph. I'd get
some test paper and check your solution otherwise the acidity will severley
weaken your cloth and it will tear easily.

Also when drying the oiled cloth, hang it in the shade. I came home one
afternoon to check my newly oiled cloth that was hanging in the direct
sunlight and the heat that built up nearly burned my hand. I swear that it was
close to combustion from the heat developed between layers. I suspect this may
have also weakened the material.

I did an 8' x 8' cloth and it came out quite heavy. No way I'm carrying that
around on my back and I'd have to appologize to a horse if I made it carry the
thing. Does work nice as a trailer cover though.

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:58:38 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: FIRE STARTING MATERIAL

JON

it hasn't been 6 months and they were discussing fire starting on the
list.  drop dean rudy a note and ask him to pull the writings on it and
send to you.  if i remember correctly someone posted almost a book on how
and what to use in fire making.  it is best to remember that depending on
what area of the world or country different things make extremely good
firemaking materials.   I like the cedar bark because it is redily
available to me but have used many different things.  the hemp thread
that is sold for macromay is good and very similar to the old tow i have
used to clean my muzzleloader with  ignites real well if you have a good
punk to catch the spark.  they use it in a lot of fire making contests
that i have been in.  the inner cedar bar is probably the best for me,
but must be dry to get a fast fire, i normally carry a wad of it in my
fire box, or the hemp macromay rope.
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Mon, 4 May 1998 19:31:31 -0500 "Ken YellowFeather"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Jon,
>Great tip on the fire starting materials. Powdered cedar and cedar
>bark
>from under cedar trees makes good fire starter too. The lower limbs
>that
>are dead can be used as a base as well. Burns hot and fast.
>YellowFeather
>
>----------
>From: JON P TOWNS <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry
>Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 9:09 PM
>
>
>
>:
>: Comments :
>:
>: :
>: As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the
>difference
>: between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester.  I made a shirt a few
>years
>: back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held up the material
>against the
>
>: real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I couldn't tell the difference
>between
>: the two.  The difference between the two was $15.00 a yd.  We have a
>man
>: from the NW and he will look over your shirt real close.  Stand in
>front
>: of you talking,  while he is looking you over you feel like your fly
>is
>: open.  So I make my stitches far enough apart for people to see it
>is
>hand
>: stitched.  But what most of the nit pickers don't realize is that  a
>self
>
>: respecting person back in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly
>made
>: shirts .   I don't think being so picky is important,  now some of
>my
>: brother will come down on me for this but I can take it.  This man
>said
>: how could I in good conscience stand in front of some school
>children and
>talk
>: to them with a machine sewn shirt.  My come back kids in school
>aren't
>: that picky and wouldn't  know the difference.  That is how I do it
>but
>when he
>: sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't know
>it
>: all.  The point is, it don't make a lot of difference what shirts
>are
>made
>: of, modern tech does a good job of making fabric.
>
>As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to weaken when wet.  It makes
>good
>fire starting material.
>I use it that is over 50 years old.  and the only thing any better is
>paper
>wasp nest - the wasps.
>
>Later Jon T.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:15:24 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee beans (& tea!)

"JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]> wrote:

> I Think you are right about the tea but coffee was costly like today and
> was not much to be had.  I'll throw this out.  I  read something Mark Baker
> wrote and he couldn't find any inventories that allowed him to carry brick
> tea can any one tell me of any inventories that had Brick tea on them.  I
> think the HBC had some at one time, at Fort Vancouver.  Angela help.

I've never seen 'brick tea' anywhere in my reading of Canadian fur trade
journals between 1774 & 1821. The types of tea most often seen are Hyson
(green tea) and Bohea. I have no idea what Bohea tea was, but it cost much
less than Hyson. I suspect that it was black tea, since I have found an HBC
request for supplies to the Athabasca for the 1821-1822 outfit which,
instead of asking for Hyson tea & Bohea tea like earlier orders, requests
green tea & black tea. Coffee, Hyson tea, and chocolate were issued as
rations to HBC clerks & partners in 1806. Tea seems to have been a more
popular drink than coffee in the Canadian fur trade, but coffee was also
drunk. Fort George (Astoria) had 4 lbs Souchong tea, 4 1-lb canisters of
tea, and 2 1-lb canisters of tea stolen by Natives, along with a bunch of
other stuff, in 1814 (Henry & Coues, 2:823). Alexander Henry the Younger
also mentions drinking coffee with molasses and goat's milk at Fort George
(Astoria).

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:17:07 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Light Packs

PAT:

good trip report sounds like it was a true learning experience for you.
It takes a few trips into the woods with only the minimum to learn to
improvise and have creature comforts that you don't realize are there.  I
 went thru and instructed in survival training at ft bragg, and mountain,
desert training at Edwards AFB and you will be surprised each time you go
out you will learn something new and also learn a lot about yourself.  It
really helps if you have someone who has been there and done that to
assist you and give you some basic guidance.   Basic Common sense and
learning to observe your enviroment makes the woods/ or desert a
storehouse for supporting you and allowing you to take less and less with
you each time and for longer periods of time.  in survival school we were
given a chicken or rabbet, 50 ft of T-50 cord and a knife and what ever
we had in our pockets at the time they decided to take us out for our 7
day fun/play  period.  I gave them back their rabit and got my own meat,
he and i became good friends after 7 days and nights, helped to keep me
warm at night, and didn't talk back much.

learn to observe nature and nature will take care of you.  learn the
basics, food, water, shelter, improvising to obtain food, and your basic
knowledge of the enviroment you are in.

common sense and keeping a cool head if emergancies arise will save your
life and those around you if you are fortunate to have others with you.

"KEEP ON TRECKING AND LEARNING"  "WELL DONE"

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:55:12 -0500
From: "Ken McWilliams" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......

Howdy Dean,
I find it rather amusing that they give the credit for inventing so called
hair pipes to a white man. The native Americans were making these and the
beads at least a thousand years before the Campbells ever made their first
one! I didn't think that Dennis was talking about wampum, I thought he was
talking about hairpipes made by the indians of that time. I noticed that
they talk about the skill needed to make them with the machinery at hand,
how about the skill that was needed to make one with "primitive" tools? I
am not disputing the fact that most of the shell artifacts that are found
were made by commercial means, just pointing out that this was not an
invention by Mr. Campbell. I have both types of "shell" artifacts in my
collection, but like the "real ones" best.
Your Obt. Servant,
Ken YellowFeather
- ----------
> From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......
> Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:55 PM
>
> At 10:10 PM 5/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Dennis,
> >The shell tubes you refer to are called columella. (sic?) They were made
> >from large conch shells. They took the central portion and ground these
> >pieces into the tubes and some were broken into smaller pieces and made
> >into beads. I have several hundred of these from walking over plowed
fields
> >in search of arrow heads and such. Some beads and tubes will show
evidence
> >of being drilled as well.
> >YellowFeather
> >
>
> The best reference I know of on the wampum hair pipes can be found
on-line,
> at:
>
> http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/tptoc.htm
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
> Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:42:15 -0700
From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......

Ken McWilliams wrote:
>
> Howdy Dean,
> I find it rather amusing that they give the credit for inventing so called
> hair pipes to a white man. The native Americans were making these and the
> beads at least a thousand years before

I was under the impression that they are called hare pipes on account of
they were made out of rabbit bones.  This was told me by a bead
collector, I have no source, but it might be interesting to look into.
            Dale Nelson  [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:39:18 -0700
From: "P.D. Amschler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Return to the cloth

One more Question,

    Trying to put together an acceptable out fit for the 1800 - 1840's AMM garb I have seen many posts on type of cloth. Everything from canvas for pants and tents to linen. Two extremes. Here is my problem. My wife and I went out tonight and found a plethera of differnt Calico prints, muslin, and linen. The question is what print is acceptable? I know that blue&white, red&white black&red or white. Small squares 1/4  - 1/2" small dots, flowers (small ones)? I have been to a lot of vous that have all kinds of non-normal prints so I am really in need of some advice.

    I am using a sweat pant pattern for my pants with out the elastic or pockets and canvas that has been washed at least 3 times to soften it up (got this tip from our cloth lady) on the advice of a AMM member but as for my shirt what pattern of calico?

    After reading many of the posts on what is right and wrong I have come to see that someone who is starting out to become a trapper in the 1800's probable bought his first set of clothing in a city or maybe a large trading post. This could have been sewn on an old machine or by hand. I am very aware of the styles of clothing in the sailing ships and if that were to carry over to the mountians it would add up. Not all mountain men were born in the mountains they came from the cities or the sea. I am just trying to put every thing in perspective.

    Thanks in advance for the advice

            Paul Amschler
            [e-mail]


Get your FREE, private e-mail
account at http://www.mailcity.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:38:48 EST5EDT
From: "Brian Dokter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Return to the cloth

> One more Question,
>
>Trying to put together an acceptable out fit for the 1800 - 1840's
AMM garb I have seen many posts on type of cloth. Everything from
canvas for pants and tents to linen. Two extremes. Here is my pro>     I
am using a sweat pant pattern for my pants with ou the elastic or
pockets and canvas that has been washed at least 3 times to soften it
up (got this tip from our cloth lady) on the advice of a AM>
> After reading many of the posts on what is right and wrong I have come to see that someone who is starting out to become a trapper in the 1800's probable bought his first set of clothing in a city
o>     Thanks in advance for the advice
>

I ran across a site that specializes in historical fabric.  I visited
her store in a little town called Amsterdam in Montana. Amazing.  She
has a wall of colonial fabric, pre-civil war fabric, post civil war,
etc.  Check out

http://www.patchworks-usa.com/


Brian K. Dokter, CHMM           [e-mail]
Calvin College

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -- Nietzsche

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 07:12:43 -0700
From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......

I have never seen any hairpipes in museums that were actually made by
Indians.  I would suspect that they could and probably did make some.
My question is were could I see some early examples of hairpipes of
Indian manufacture and how far back do they date?

               Dennis

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:16:52 EDT
From: LODGEPOLE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looking for mountain men info in St. Louis for trip

In a message dated 98-04-28 23:38:35 EDT, Kat wrote:

<< Emma, I am here just outside St. Louis. I suggest the Missouri Historical
 Society Library on Skinker Blvd. in St. Louis (right near Forest Park). I
 also suggest the bookstore at (under) the Gateway Arch. St. Genevive is
 the site of the first permanent French settlement. There is also some of
 Old Town St. Charles (the first capitol)  left. Depending on the weekend,
 I would suggest a day trip to Ft. de Chartres (about 3 hours away). This
 is a F&I period fort. There are also several 'vous within a few hours.
 Let me know when you are coming, and I'll see if there is anything
 special going on. >>

Emma,
   These sights are well worth checking out.  The Fort is a little closer than
kat describes though.  I live on the south end of town, and can be down at the
fort in about an hour.
   Contact me off list if you need directions to any of these places.

                                              Longshot

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #62
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